Conservative MP David Amess stabbed to death

Dr. Dwayne

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Surely the Essex Police haven't given him enough time to fall down some stairs or trip over something in his cell a few times yet.
I am wondering if they'll try the "we forgot him in the van" trick.
 

oates

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Your rhetoric is concerning, Rayner calling tories scum and you then following up with 'people should know tories are scum' is really low especially considering the timing. Its discriminatory in all honesty.

Dont like tories and there political ideologies? Then debate them, proove them wrong, win the arguments wow people with your own policies and behaviour, resorting to name-calling is childish, hateful and does nothing other than stir the pot of hate that is the current political climate.
In all honesty there is surely going to be plenty of time to go over this when we get more detail over the coming weeks and months from whatever the Police and DPP decide to give the Independent to feed us.

The man only died this afternoon. I don't think any of us needed Angela Rayner to tell us what the Tory Government are in our eyes.
 

slyadams

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I was referring to the above comment you made. The language that Boris and boys were using was things like "traitor" and "surrender", yet you think that's on par with calling scummy people "scum", a very common term in England.
Actually, I think its all language not befitting leaders. You think one is OK, and that's fine, we can agree to disagree.
You have absolutely laid his death at her door, you said there's no wonder when leaders go around labelling opposition as scum. People should know that the Tories are scum, people shouldn't be afraid to say they are scum and people should stop voting in scum.
Not really, I said that when leaders call people scum perhaps some people that look up those leaders will perceive that as true. To make a link from that to "its her fault" is quite a leap, especially when I've posted about 4 times its the guy's fault and no-one else's. As I said, life is about nuance and two things can be true at the same time: its his fault and he is also influenced by the outside world. Its quite telling pretty much every single member of the labour party has said the language was inappropriate, and that is literally the only argument I've been making.
To compare first the Tories to Rayner and now taking it a leap further by comparing Trump to Rayner is honestly vile.
Again, nuance. You can compare people without saying they're precisely the same as each other. Trump said about a million things that riled his base up, Rayner has said 1.
I will concede that I was wrong about the direction of her comments though, it was definitely aimed at Tories in General, which actually makes me like her more.
And I think those shows why we won't agree. You're of the opinion that over 50% of the country are scum (i.e. sub-human), I'm not.
 

slyadams

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There was one single comment, that got him a warning, and was deleted. It had dozens of comments quoting it condemning it.
I'm confused, are you talking about the post early on that was deleted? If so, I've not referenced that at all, I've been referring to Rayner's comments.
If you're unhappy with soapboxing using a man's death, do you not think your contribution fits that bill? Your first comment was
Conceded, I did do that, albeit after about 6 posts referring to him being a Tory.
I'm not sure what we're debating here?
Nor me, all I really said was that leaders need to moderate their language.
 

V.O.

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feck me, i'd forgotton some of the things this scumbag said.
I don't even think I'd heard this one before. It's incredible. The best way to remember a pro-EU politician who was murdered by a man who was shouting "independence for Britain" while he was stabbing her is to make sure that Brexit means Brexit.

He can say absolutely anything the feck he likes with no repercussions, ever.
 

Raven

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Your rhetoric is concerning, Rayner calling tories scum and you then following up with 'people should know tories are scum' is really low especially considering the timing. Its discriminatory in all honesty.

Dont like tories and there political ideologies? Then debate them, proove them wrong, win the arguments wow people with your own policies and behaviour, resorting to name-calling is childish, hateful and does nothing other than stir the pot of hate that is the current political climate.
But we've lost the argument because the system is rigged against us, I've accepted that, so I'm more than happy to just call them what they are, which is scum.
 

Raven

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Actually, I think its all language not befitting leaders. You think one is OK, and that's fine, we can agree to disagree.

Not really, I said that when leaders call people scum perhaps some people that look up those leaders will perceive that as true. To make a link from that to "its her fault" is quite a leap, especially when I've posted about 4 times its the guy's fault and no-one else's. As I said, life is about nuance and two things can be true at the same time: its his fault and he is also influenced by the outside world. Its quite telling pretty much every single member of the labour party has said the language was inappropriate, and that is literally the only argument I've been making.

Again, nuance. You can compare people without saying they're precisely the same as each other. Trump said about a million things that riled his base up, Rayner has said 1.

And I think those shows why we won't agree. You're of the opinion that over 50% of the country are scum (i.e. sub-human), I'm not.
I'm referring to members of the Tory party as scum, not those who vote Tory. My grandparents are some of the nicest people I've ever met but they've never voted anything but Tory.

I would also point out that over 50% of the country are not Tory voters.
 

Longshanks

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But we've lost the argument because the system is rigged against us, I've accepted that, so I'm more than happy to just call them what they are, which is scum.
The system isn't rigged against you, its quite a simple system, win enough seats and you get to take control of parliament.

To win those seats you have to appeal to more than just the few people in working class towns who think calling the tories scum is big, clever or funny.

You have to appeal to members of the 'broad middle-class' by convincing them to vote for you through policies and debate name calling just puts people of voting for you.
 

V.O.

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The system isn't rigged against you, its quite a simple system, win enough seats and you get to take control of parliament.

To win those seats you have to appeal to more than just the few people in working class towns who think calling the tories scum is big, clever or funny.

You have to appeal to members of the 'broad middle-class' by convincing them to vote for you through policies and debate name calling just puts people of voting for you.
Well, that and having a bent media who will run hit piece after hit piece against the other lot every day of the week and brush everything you do under the rug, yeah.

EDIT: This probably isn't really the thread for where this is going. Here would be better if we're carrying on.
 

Mb194dc

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It’s just awful, and another thread that kind of makes me feel we’re all getting massively polarised. Bad times.
Yup, welcome to the social media and Internet age. No middle ground it's extremes only on pretty much every subject.

Meanwhile I guess all MPs need close protection when doing public events. Second MP murder in 5 years!
 

slyadams

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The system isn't rigged against you, its quite a simple system, win enough seats and you get to take control of parliament.

To win those seats you have to appeal to more than just the few people in working class towns who think calling the tories scum is big, clever or funny.

You have to appeal to members of the 'broad middle-class' by convincing them to vote for you through policies and debate name calling just puts people of voting for you.
I’ve always found that odd. “Let’s call the people whose vote we need to win scum”.
 

Raven

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The system isn't rigged against you, its quite a simple system, win enough seats and you get to take control of parliament.

To win those seats you have to appeal to more than just the few people in working class towns who think calling the tories scum is big, clever or funny.

You have to appeal to members of the 'broad middle-class' by convincing them to vote for you through policies and debate name calling just puts people of voting for you.
Except it is.

Anyway, I think @V.O. is right, I'm on the verge of derailing this thread so I'll just leave it off.
 

oates

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This probably isn't really the thread for where this is going. Here would be better if we're carrying on.
Unfortunately with a few posters attempting to lay some sort of measure for this tragedy at the door of Angela Rayner then personally I feel this needs and deserves to be completely de-bunked and another unscrupulous whitewash should be seen for what it is.

At the same time I can easily see tempers getting out of hand with an argument getting out of control and taking this thread in a direction it doesn't deserve. We should forget arguing for the present and think about what people have lost today and that our society as a whole suffers for what has happened.
 

FootballHQ

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Sad story. Could easily been more than him and Jo Cox to have been killed serving their constituents, think it was Stephen Timms (?) who was lucky to survive when someone attacked him about a decade ago.

Guess with so many MPs it's impossible to get proper security for each public sitting they do so many of them are sitting ducks for a lone wolf attack like this sadly. End of the day regardless of your political beliefs, a 69 year old man and father of five got stabbed today for doing his job when he could've been happily retired.

Seems he did some good stuff aswell, apparently organised a group of special needs kids in his area to go and sing at Royal Albert Hall a few years back so while the overall direction of his party isn't great to say the least, not all Tory members have the veins of the devil inside of them.
 

balaks

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Anybody using this man's murder as an excuse to get into some sort of political debate needs to have a serious look at themselves. By all accounts he was a decent man (based on the testimonies of local people who dealt with him) and what happened to him was horrific.

I wonder what the hell is going on in the world if you can't seperate somebody's political views from the actual human being.
 

acnumber9

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I wonder what the hell is going on in the world if you can't seperate somebody's political views from the actual human being.
As much as this isn’t the time or place to get into the mans politics I’d say it would be a pretty weird world where you would separate them. His political views will have formed a large part of the human being. Particularly as a politician.
 

Bastian

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Your rhetoric is concerning, Rayner calling tories scum and you then following up with 'people should know tories are scum' is really low especially considering the timing. Its discriminatory in all honesty.

Dont like tories and there political ideologies? Then debate them, proove them wrong, win the arguments wow people with your own policies and behaviour, resorting to name-calling is childish, hateful and does nothing other than stir the pot of hate that is the current political climate.
I'm taking this off the individual topic: So it is wrong to call them scum because of how it looks in the aftermath of a hideous murder? That's not logical. Calling them scum is a value judgement, pretty widespread as it has been widely felt. I don't want to embrace absolute defeatism here, but you can do all those things you suggest (valid ideas) and still feel like they are scum and still refer to them as scum. It may not help your cause, but it's a genuine feeling for many people. It doesn't mean they are inciting violence. It means they despise them. For almost everyone that's definitely mutually exclusive (despiciency and murderous rage).

My own opinion is that the policies the Tories have promoted and how they have governed over the decades is absolutely worthy of contempt and that their politics have been guided by hatred and contempt. The polarisation of the political landscape (if you can call it that) and the hate being expressed is somehow being branded as a new thing, when it isn't as it's the result of politics of hate and contempt, perpetrated on poor people, minorities, and countries whose populations can't defend themselves.

Again, not a take on that particular individual, just on your stance on other people's vocabulary when it comes to particular powerful groups.
 

big rons sovereign

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Is that aimed at me? Maybe you miss interpreted who my comment was aimed at.

For the sake of any confusion, I absolutely didn't mean any offence to anyone aside the the idiot poster I quoted.

Maybe my fault for not being clearer, apologies.
No, no. Of course not.
Aimed at the post quoted. A thoroughly cretinous thing to say.
My bad.
 
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Bastian

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As much as this isn’t the time or place to get into the mans politics I’d say it would be a pretty weird world where you would separate them. His political views will have formed a large part of the human being. Particularly as a politician.
100% You'd have to deny history.
 

Balljy

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As much as this isn’t the time or place to get into the mans politics I’d say it would be a pretty weird world where you would separate them. His political views will have formed a large part of the human being. Particularly as a politician.
This is a man who has a family who have lost him and from what we've heard he was a good family man. His politics have pretty much no affect on how he acted in his personal life. There's definitely an issue if people can't disassociate "Tory" from someone who can still be a good person in day to day life.

I have no sympathy for his political views, but it seems weird for me to consider his death any less horrific than any other MP or person, no matter their politics.
 

acnumber9

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This is a man who has a family who have lost him and from what we've heard he was a good family man. His politics have pretty much no effect on how he acted in his personal life. There's definitely an issue if people can't disassociate "Tory" from someone who can still be a good person in day to day life.

I have no sympathy for his political views, but it seems weird for me to consider his death any less horrific than any other MP or person, no matter their politics.
And nobody has said his politics has made his death less horrific. You’re countering an argument that hasn’t been made. It’s nonsensical to say that a persons politics have no impact on how they are as a person.
 

P-Ro

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This thread shows that a lot of people invested in politics are dickheads. A man is murdered doing a service to the public and we have wankers in here writing essays about why they don't like tories.

Similar dickheads on the other side were going ape shit about how the remainers were going to use Jo Cox's murder to sway the referendum.

Cut from the same cloth.
 

Balljy

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And nobody has said his politics has made his death less horrific. You’re countering an argument that hasn’t been made. It’s nonsensical to say that a persons politics have no impact on how they are as a person.
I think politics has minimal, and often no affect on family and friend life. Politics shouldn't come into how we view this particular death exactly how the poster you responded to originally said.
 

balaks

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It’s nonsensical to say that a persons politics have no impact on how they are as a person.
That's nonsense. I know from personal experience of an MP (now retired) of whom I couldn't disagree more with on a political level who is also a very decent man who worked extremely hard for his constituents no matter who they were. One's political views do not define you as a human being.
 

manutddjw

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Politics are so fecked and the sad thing is people are being played and they don't even realize it. Everything has been put in place to divide the people; rich vs poor, black vs white, conservative vs liberal and now vaccinated vs unvaccinated.

If we came together and not let us be divided by media and the like, we'd say why are housing prices so high that the average citizen can't afford it? Why don't we have free health care? Instead they make us fight amongst each other.
 

littlepeasoup

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That's nonsense. I know from personal experience of an MP (now retired) of whom I couldn't disagree more with on a political level who is also a very decent man who worked extremely hard for his constituents no matter who they were. One's political views do not define you as a human being.
Anecdotally, I know from someone who worked as a non-partisan civil servant in Downing Street, that despite differing political views and leanings lots of MPs are far more decent and softer than sometimes they appear. Despite party politics a lot of people around Westminster on both sides of the benches will be hurting tonight, and that’s a terribly sad thing.

What we mustn’t do is continue a rhetoric of fear and hatred. Let the facts come out, and for the time being mourn the loss of a public servant who did not deserve to die today.
 

acnumber9

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I think politics has minimal, and often no affect on family and friend life. Politics shouldn't come into how we view this particular death exactly how the poster you responded to originally said.
It was nothing about how we should view his death. It was about the notion that a persons politics has no impact on how they are as a person. Like I said before, this isn’t really the time or place to go much further on the idea.
 

NotThatSoph

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Whilst MPs go around calling each other scum its no wonder members of the public might actually perceive them as such.
"Scum scum scum" is a rather common chant both directed at opposition players when a set of supporters feel they have transgressed, and towards the ref when they think they're being unfair. Do you think that will lead to the murder of footballers and referees?
 

acnumber9

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That's nonsense. I know from personal experience of an MP (now retired) of whom I couldn't disagree more with on a political level who is also a very decent man who worked extremely hard for his constituents no matter who they were. One's political views do not define you as a human being.
Ok, your one personal experience definitely means that a persons politics doesn’t shape them as a human being in any way. It’s not the only thing that defines them and nobody said any different. That’s not what you initially said.
 

Compton22

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"Scum scum scum" is a rather common chant both directed at opposition players when a set of supporters feel they have transgressed, and towards the ref when they think they're being unfair. Do you think that will lead to the murder of footballers and referees?
Football and politics cannot be classed together in this way. I get the need for politicians in particular to moderate their language. We only have to look at what happened at the Trump rally to see what can happen in the most extreme circumstances. What they say ultimately carries a lot of weight and will affect people in various ways and to different degrees.

However, I agree in the sense that I don't think it should detract at all from the fact that these monsters that commit these atrocities are exactly that and the more normal of us in society are not motivated to go out and harm someone just because they have different beliefs than us, regardless of how it affects our lives. No one, under any circumstance, deserves that.
 

Compton22

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Politics are so fecked and the sad thing is people are being played and they don't even realize it. Everything has been put in place to divide the people; rich vs poor, black vs white, conservative vs liberal and now vaccinated vs unvaccinated.

If we came together and not let us be divided by media and the like, we'd say why are housing prices so high that the average citizen can't afford it? Why don't we have free health care? Instead they make us fight amongst each other.
Divide and conquer :( it's a real shame that it is allowed to work.