Conservative MP David Amess stabbed to death

Cascarino

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Ok, your one personal experience definitely means that a persons politics doesn’t shape them as a human being in any way. It’s not the only thing that defines them and nobody said any different. That’s not what you initially said.
Aye, like that person from GB news who thinks we should let those crossing the channel drown. Some political persuasions are disgusting.
 
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However, honestly I've been expecting something like this to happen for quite a while now. The restrictions and pressures that people have been put through, combined with the public actions of the Conservative Party, have built up a resentment against them. I've said on multiple occasions that I can understand how people can become radicalised as all you have to do is print out a list of headlines that explain our government's contempt for 'the common man'. The Covid response, the 'one rule for them, another for us' mentality, Barnard Castle, Matt Hancock, ending of furlough, removal of the UC uplift, rising costs etc, it builds up pressure. It was frankly only a matter of time before something like this turned violent.

As I've said before, I in know way am trying to justify the individual attack, but I can completely understand how that build-up could have sparked a violent response.
Then you could also say the same thing about the murderer of Jo Cox? Point is every party will have some public policy that angers one group or another.
 

Jericholyte2

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Then you could also say the same thing about the murderer of Jo Cox? Point is every party will have some public policy that angers one group or another.
Well not really, because they’re two entirely different cases. Jo Cox was an opposition MP who was murdered by a white supremacist because she was actively anti-Brexit. The man was a white supremacist terrorist who didn’t like what she was campaigning for.

Whereas, pending confirmation of his reasoning. I was offering an explanation as to how someone could build up a violent hatred of a member of the ruling Party that, over the course of a decade, has removed public services, sewn divisions within the country and consistently looked to pound the poor into submission.
 
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Well not really, because they’re two entirely different cases. Jo Cox was an opposition MP who was murdered by a white supremacist because she was actively anti-Brexit. The man was a white supremacist terrorist who didn’t like what she was campaigning for.

Whereas, pending confirmation of his reasoning. I was offering an explanation as to how someone could build up a violent hatred of a member of the ruling Party that, over the course of a decade, has removed public services, sewn divisions within the country and consistently looked to pound the poor into submission.
You’ve acknowledged that both(pending confirmation for the second case), got killed by a terrorist, who opposed their politics. But say it’s different? Other than one victim being from a party you support and the other being from a party you oppose, I don’t quite see the difference that you’re on about or how only one side can build up hate in people.

Anyways. You’re clearly a bit of a hypocrite.
 

big rons sovereign

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All good mate.

I hope he's had time to reflect on his words as this will follow him around on the site from now on.
What's worrying is I'm not surprised by any of it, the guy being murdered or people's reactions to it.
 

Sir Matt

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That's nonsense. I know from personal experience of an MP (now retired) of whom I couldn't disagree more with on a political level who is also a very decent man who worked extremely hard for his constituents no matter who they were. One's political views do not define you as a human being.
It depends on the politics in question. A politician can be very nice to his friends and family but be an awful human being based on his or her politics.

For example, opposing equal rights or protections for minorities (religious, LGBT, ethnic, etc.), encouraging hatred or violence against minorities, or spreading disinformation about COVID-19 or other public health concerns makes a politician a reprehensible human being. That's not to say the MP did these things, but those are all examples of fairly widespread politics that certainly say something about the politician as a human being. Viktor Orban (or Trump, Bolsonaro, Le Pen, Putin, and others like them) uses white nationalism, anti-semitism, and anti-LGBT bigotry for political gain making him an evil person, regardless of how "decent" he might be in private.

As far right political parties and movements gain traction around the world on the backs of campaigns of fear and hatred, I don't see how you can separate their politics from the people.
 
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Wumminator

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Politics are so fecked and the sad thing is people are being played and they don't even realize it. Everything has been put in place to divide the people; rich vs poor, black vs white, conservative vs liberal and now vaccinated vs unvaccinated.

If we came together and not let us be divided by media and the like, we'd say why are housing prices so high that the average citizen can't afford it? Why don't we have free health care? Instead they make us fight amongst each other.
I mean…. They’re not being manipulated though are they, the rich v the poor is a literal massive issue that is ruining people’s lives and the vaccinated are helping out the world whilst the unvaccinated are spreading a deadly virus.

You don’t need to be manipulated to have a view on this.

RIP to this MP.
 

DatIrishFella

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First time hearing of this man, I was reading an article on the BBC website about him and they wrote a small piece about him being an "anti abortion activist" like it was a good thing.

Surely that's something you dont try to pass off as some honourable crusade.
 

Penna

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First time hearing of this man, I was reading an article on the BBC website about him and they wrote a small piece about him being an "anti abortion activist" like it was a good thing.

Surely that's something you dont try to pass off as some honourable crusade.
He was a devout Catholic, so that's hardly surprising. He was also active in helping refugees, in animal welfare and in raising awareness of the struggles of women with endometriosis. None of that is relevant to this thread, though.

In any case, the people who knew him (from all the political parties) have been united in saying he was a kind man.
 

GDaly95

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It's really no wonder why people on the right side of the political spectrum are afraid to say so on this forum.

If you made a poll with the question "is it objectively immoral to be a Conservative?" the result would be embarrassing for this place.

Rest in peace David Amess.
 

Raven

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It's really no wonder why people on the right side of the political spectrum are afraid to say so on this forum.

If you made a poll with the question "is it objectively immoral to be a Conservative?" the result would be embarrassing for this place.

Rest in peace David Amess.
To try and conserve a system with such glaring inequalities is objectively immoral.
 
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arnie_ni

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Aye, like that person from GB news who thinks we should let those crossing the channel drown. Some political persuasions are disgusting.
Think that says more about the human being than the politics.
 

oates

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The Police and Authorities have declared David Amess murder a Terrorist Incident. So, hopefully not your everyday jack of all trades desperate opposition this or that constituent who we could argue forever over whether they or we could paint in a just manner as a down trodden member of the public who had taken Angela Rayner's insults to heart or taken the vicious insult of Scum! as a warcry bringing the masses to their senses and only needing the murder of a mere backbencher, a pleasant, believably nice and kind Conservative to light the touchpaper of revolution and help prove one side of RedCafe right and the other wrong, yet again.

Unfortunately this is now a job for those who understand the incomprehensible and esoteric nature of terrorism, rather than the more mundane I'm a leftie, I'm a rightie - (the clue is in the name amirite?) combatant to win the day.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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It's really no wonder why people on the right side of the political spectrum are afraid to say so on this forum.

If you made a poll with the question "is it objectively immoral to be a Conservative?" the result would be embarrassing for this place.

Rest in peace David Amess.
Au contraire. I'd imagine that the majority of this forum are sensible in their stance regarding an abhorrent party. Embarrassing would be countenancing the bigotry and immorality that permeates the conservative party and it's ardent advocates.
 

Ibi Dreams

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Then you could also say the same thing about the murderer of Jo Cox? Point is every party will have some public policy that angers one group or another.
Jo Cox was never a member of the actual government, so whatever her political positions were she never had any actual influence on anything (unless she ever voted in line with the Tories, which I doubt). Amess was part of the government and voted for many things that actually did happen and negatively affected millions of people. That's why it's not the same
 

Jericholyte2

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You’ve acknowledged that both(pending confirmation for the second case), got killed by a terrorist, who opposed their politics. But say it’s different? Other than one victim being from a party you support and the other being from a party you oppose, I don’t quite see the difference that you’re on about or how only one side can build up hate in people.

Anyways. You’re clearly a bit of a hypocrite.
Right, that conclusion is just absolutely daft! This isn’t a Right vs Left or Conservative vs Labour issue.

I am innow way trying to justify one because “it’s for my team” or any of that BS, there is a CLEAR difference between someone being murdered for campaigning for one side of a referendum and another being murdered for being part of the leadership that has made people’s lives objectively worse.

Conservatives have made policies over the last decade that have impacted on the mental and physical health of millions, Labour simply haven’t. That’s just a fact, so trying to say that both are equal along the spectrum is just obtuse and blinkered.
 

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Jo Cox was never a member of the actual government, so whatever her political positions were she never had any actual influence on anything (unless she ever voted in line with the Tories, which I doubt). Amess was part of the government and voted for many things that actually did happen and negatively affected millions of people. That's why it's not the same
Right, that conclusion is just absolutely daft! This isn’t a Right vs Left or Conservative vs Labour issue.

I am innow way trying to justify one because “it’s for my team” or any of that BS, there is a CLEAR difference between someone being murdered for campaigning for one side of a referendum and another being murdered for being part of the leadership that has made people’s lives objectively worse.

Conservatives have made policies over the last decade that have impacted on the mental and physical health of millions, Labour simply haven’t. That’s just a fact, so trying to say that both are equal along the spectrum is just obtuse and blinkered.
Sorry but why does that even matter? Two innocent people murdered just doing their job - both equally horrific and should be condemned equally.
 

Jericholyte2

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Sorry but why does that even matter? Two innocent people murdered just doing their job - both equally horrific and should be condemned equally.
Where have I not condemned it? Murder is murder but to say that the murder of an opposition MP who was campaigning for something is the same as the murder of an MP in the governing party that are potentially making people’s lives worse is just nonsense.

There is a spectrum to everything as nothing is ever black or white.
 

balaks

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Where have I not condemned it? Murder is murder but to say that the murder of an opposition MP who was campaigning for something is the same as the murder of an MP in the governing party that are potentially making people’s lives worse is just nonsense.

There is a spectrum to everything as nothing is ever black or white.
Why are you even focusing on policy though? I honestly don't get what you are trying to say.
 

Wibble

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It doesn't matter how much you dislike Tory politics, and I dislike them a great deal, but attacks like this are attacks on our democracy as well as a personal tragedy for the victim and his family. Truly despicable.
 

Jericholyte2

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Why are you even focusing on policy though? I honestly don't get what you are trying to say.
I’m saying that, when a government insists on policies that worsen people’s lives, then they are going to be put under pressure. Pressure drives people to make rash and sometimes horrific decisions.

To suggest that this has happened in a vacuum, that the leadership and direction of this country has had no impact on things like this is short-sighted.

min now way is this excusing this horrific act, but people under such pressure will always, eventually, go to an extreme reaction.
 

Wibble

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Where have I not condemned it? Murder is murder but to say that the murder of an opposition MP who was campaigning for something is the same as the murder of an MP in the governing party that are potentially making people’s lives worse is just nonsense.

There is a spectrum to everything as nothing is ever black or white.
Slippery slope once you start judging who is more or less worthy of being murdered. Physical violence and murder are abhorrent full stop.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I’m saying that, when a government insists on policies that worsen people’s lives, then they are going to be put under pressure. Pressure drives people to make rash and sometimes horrific decisions.

To suggest that this has happened in a vacuum, that the leadership and direction of this country has had no impact on things like this is short-sighted.

min now way is this excusing this horrific act, but people under such pressure will always, eventually, go to an extreme reaction.
I think you can at least partially blame the current government for both this murder and for Joe Cox. They deliberately made the country more divided and angry than it has been in a very long time. All to appease extremists in their own party. And the UK has been reaping the whirlwind ever since.

It’s not a good look to portray this murder as somehow more justifiable than Joe Cox though. You should be careful about what you’re implying here.
 

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I think you can at least partially blame the current government for both this murder and for Joe Cox. They deliberately made the country more divided and angry than it has been in a very long time. All to appease extremists in their own party. And the UK has been reaping the whirlwind ever since.

It’s not a good look to portray this murder as somehow more justifiable than Joe Cox though. You should be careful about what you’re implying here.
As an outsider, who are the extremists in their party and what have done to appease them?
 

Jericholyte2

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Slippery slope once you start judging who is more or less worthy of being murdered. Physical violence and murder are abhorrent full stop.
Everyone makes judgments like this. I have in no way said that Tory murders are more ‘acceptable’ but the reality is that people’s and institution’s actions have consequences. Again, I am in NOW WAY JUSTIFYING the murder of an individual MP, but to understand WHY it happened you have to look at the way the Party and Government that he was a part of has treated people.
 

Jericholyte2

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I think you can at least partially blame the current government for both this murder and for Joe Cox. They deliberately made the country more divided and angry than it has been in a very long time. All to appease extremists in their own party. And the UK has been reaping the whirlwind ever since.

It’s not a good look to portray this murder as somehow more justifiable than Joe Cox though. You should be careful about what you’re implying here.
Again, not implying one is more acceptable than the other, that’s the key difference between justifying something and trying to explain the circumstances that could lead to such an act.
 

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As an outsider, who are the extremists in their party and what have done to appease them?
European Reseach Group - Basically Brexit by every and any means necessary and that involved stoking far right wing fires all over the country and polarising communities.
 

Sultan

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A murder is a murder. I'm simply at a loss why his policies, or him being a Tory is discussed. I hardly think the murderer chose to kill him for his stance on being a conservative. If this turns out to be terrorism which seems to be the case then he was just a random easy target and it could have been an MP of any other party in his place.

A despicable act.
 

Sultan

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Everyone makes judgments like this. I have in no way said that Tory murders are more ‘acceptable’ but the reality is that people’s and institution’s actions have consequences. Again, I am in NOW WAY JUSTIFYING the murder of an individual MP, but to understand WHY it happened you have to look at the way the Party and Government that he was a part of has treated people.
If this turns out to be a Somali guy as being reported then I am more than certain he did not kill him for his policies.
 

Penna

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If this turns out to be a Somali guy as being reported then I am more than certain he did not kill him for his policies.
He is evidently a British national, of Somali heritage. He didn't make any attempt to get away or to attack anyone else. It looks like he'd gone to the church with one intention.
 

Gehrman

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He is evidently a British national, of Somali heritage. He didn't make any attempt to get away or to attack anyone else. It looks like he'd gone to the church with one intention.
We really don't know the motive at this point. Islamic terror attack is not very specific.
 

Jericholyte2

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If this turns out to be a Somali guy as being reported then I am more than certain he did not kill him for his policies.
Why? He’s a British national with a Somali background, what implications are you making about the man based on that?

When trying to figure out why someone did this you have to look beyond the simple fact that Person X killed Person Y, you have to look at what lead to it. Whoever this person is, they didn’t just off the cuff wake up yesterday and suddenly get the idea to kill him. There has been a chain reaction of events which have lead to the point where (in his own head) the only way to resolve whatever grievance he had was to murder him.

Whether it’s because he was an MP for a Party that has made his life worse we probably won’t ever really know, but nothing like this ever happens in a vacuum.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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It's really no wonder why people on the right side of the political spectrum are afraid to say so on this forum.

If you made a poll with the question "is it objectively immoral to be a Conservative?" the result would be embarrassing for this place.

Rest in peace David Amess.
Imagine thinking it's not immoral to be a Tory! :lol: