Conservative MP David Amess stabbed to death

Sultan

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Why? He’s a British national with a Somali background, what implications are you making about the man based on that?

When trying to figure out why someone did this you have to look beyond the simple fact that Person X killed Person Y, you have to look at what lead to it. Whoever this person is, they didn’t just off the cuff wake up yesterday and suddenly get the idea to kill him. There has been a chain reaction of events which have lead to the point where (in his own head) the only way to resolve whatever grievance he had was to murder him.

Whether it’s because he was an MP for a Party that has made his life worse we probably won’t ever really know, but nothing like this ever happens in a vacuum.
I understand your point.

However, this is being reported as terrorism. If this is a Muslim guy then I am sure his motivation will be a myriad of grievances built up in his mind against the UK not particularly him being a conservative.
 

Jericholyte2

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I understand your point.

However, this is being reported as terrorism. If this is a Muslim guy then I am sure his motivation will be a myriad of grievances built up in his mind against the UK not particularly him being a conservative.
I am in full agreement with that, but whereas you say he has grievances with the UK, I’d look at it and say he has a grievance with the leadership of the UK and then reacted against that institution, of which Sir David Amess was a representative.
 

groovyalbert

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Imagine thinking it's not immoral to be a Tory! :lol:
That would make the majority of voters in this country immoral in your eyes then? How puritanical do you have to be to arrive at that position!

As someone who hasn't/would never vote Tory, I've certainly met/known/worked with/have friends who have and do vote Tory. And they're by no means "immoral" - you just happen to disagree on certain issues. Which you should do in any sane/open/progressive society!

But I feel this thread is going off track. This should be a thread to acknowledge the abhorrent, sad and cowardly act that was a direct attack on British democracy, and in particular a practice that allows for the elected ruling members of our society to meet with their constituents.

Plus the man gave is all the greatest Brasseye gift there is. No matter what our leanings/how strong our feelings towards any political party, we should all be able to unite and appreciate that.
 

nickm

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Well not really, because they’re two entirely different cases. Jo Cox was an opposition MP who was murdered by a white supremacist because she was actively anti-Brexit. The man was a white supremacist terrorist who didn’t like what she was campaigning for.

Whereas, pending confirmation of his reasoning. I was offering an explanation as to how someone could build up a violent hatred of a member of the ruling Party that, over the course of a decade, has removed public services, sewn divisions within the country and consistently looked to pound the poor into submission.
You weren't offering an explanation, you were guessing, and guessing in ways that reveal your own prejudices.
 

Devil_forever

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I am in full agreement with that, but whereas you say he has grievances with the UK, I’d look at it and say he has a grievance with the leadership of the UK and then reacted against that institution, of which Sir David Amess was a representative.
Or he saw killing an MP as the perfect way to terrorise? What better way than to attack democracy?
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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That would make the majority of voters in this country immoral in your eyes then? How puritanical do you have to be to arrive at that position!

As someone who hasn't/would never vote Tory, I've certainly met/known/worked with/have friends who have and do vote Tory. And they're by no means "immoral" - you just happen to disagree on certain issues. Which you should do in any sane/open/progressive society!

But I feel this thread is going off track. This should be a thread to acknowledge the abhorrent, sad and cowardly act that was a direct attack on British democracy, and in particular a practice that allows for the elected ruling members of our society to meet with their constituents.

Plus the man gave is all the greatest Brasseye gift there is. No matter what our leanings/how strong our feelings towards any political party, we should all be able to unite and appreciate that.
What makes conservatives immoral? It’s not the right thread but if you vote that way then you are effectively admitting you don’t give a feck about people at the bottom of the ladder. You don’t care about the growing wealth inequality in the world and the growing wealth hordes by the 5%. You don’t care that kids are going hungry or that our public services are being left in a state of disrepair. Frankly you have to be at best selfish and at worst immoral to believe in any of that.

That’s off topic for this thread though and it’s clear that no matter your political allegiance a crime like this is out of order. I just think pretending that tories aren’t immoral is ridiculous. It would be better to just hold our hands up and admit that most people don’t give a damn about people other than themselves and that’s the case for that 50% in this country too.
 

slyadams

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"Scum scum scum" is a rather common chant both directed at opposition players when a set of supporters feel they have transgressed, and towards the ref when they think they're being unfair. Do you think that will lead to the murder of footballers and referees?
Are you suggesting our leaders should use the language you hear in football stands?
 

Classical Mechanic

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I think you can at least partially blame the current government for both this murder and for Joe Cox. They deliberately made the country more divided and angry than it has been in a very long time. All to appease extremists in their own party. And the UK has been reaping the whirlwind ever since.

It’s not a good look to portray this murder as somehow more justifiable than Joe Cox though. You should be careful about what you’re implying here.
I don’t think you can at this point in time. Andrew Pennington was murdered in 2000 trying to protect his local MP from being murdered by an aggrieved constituent. An Islamic extremist tried to murder to murder Stephen Timms MP in 2010 in exactly the same way as this case appears to be.
 
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Jericholyte2

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You weren't offering an explanation, you were guessing, and guessing in ways that reveal your own prejudices.
To that I offer the quote, “be curious, not judgmental” - I am curious as to why the man decided that this was the only course of action that he felt was left to express whatever anger or age he was feeling. There is of course an element of guess work about this because we don’t know all of the reasons as yet. One key, undeniable fact is that the country has become far more insular, angry, divided in the past decade and, in such environments, extremism grows.

I’m also curious as to what prejudices you’re suggesting I have?
 

Jericholyte2

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Or he saw killing an MP as the perfect way to terrorise? What better way than to attack democracy?
Yes, that could be the ‘what’ of what happened, the man might have wanted to terrorise UK democracy, but I’m interested in the ‘why’. What has happened to make this man want to terrorise UK democracy, or the institution that essentially hold the key to it at the moment?
 

Berbasbullet

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Do we know why this scum bag did what he did? Or are we merely speculating (which probably isn’t appropriate)?
 

2cents

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Do we know why this scum bag did what he did? Or are we merely speculating (which probably isn’t appropriate)?
Authorities have stated they are investigating this as a potential “terrorism” incident. Anything else is speculation at this point.
 

Abizzz

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Is it really controversial to say that tories policies on mental health might have had an effect on the populations mental health!?

I'm all for a balanced discussion but some are taking the cake.
 

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That would make the majority of voters in this country immoral in your eyes then? How puritanical do you have to be to arrive at that position!

As someone who hasn't/would never vote Tory, I've certainly met/known/worked with/have friends who have and do vote Tory. And they're by no means "immoral" - you just happen to disagree on certain issues. Which you should do in any sane/open/progressive society!

But I feel this thread is going off track. This should be a thread to acknowledge the abhorrent, sad and cowardly act that was a direct attack on British democracy, and in particular a practice that allows for the elected ruling members of our society to meet with their constituents.

Plus the man gave is all the greatest Brasseye gift there is. No matter what our leanings/how strong our feelings towards any political party, we should all be able to unite and appreciate that.
I think there's a clear difference between voting for someone and being the person they vote for. Alot of tory voters/Trump voters / insert immoral knob party voters simply believe the propaganda these immoral twats spew and vote for them in a misguided attempt at "fixing" the "system". The people in power actually know they're full of shite and do it for selfish / cnutish reasons.

There's 2 types of conservatives, dumb people and evil people.
Sweeping generalisations are cool
 

Berbasbullet

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Authorities have stated they are investigating this as a potential “terrorism” incident. Anything else is speculation at this point.
Ah okay, then maybe people shouldn’t speculate about Rayner or the tories policies etc until we know for sure? Just my opinion though.
 

JPRouve

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Authorities have stated they are investigating this as a potential “terrorism” incident. Anything else is speculation at this point.
Even the potential terrorism incident is speculative, unless something new came up it's a murder case with unknown motives and an ongoing investigation that ranges from terrorism to mental illness.
 

Jippy

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What makes conservatives immoral? It’s not the right thread but if you vote that way then you are effectively admitting you don’t give a feck about people at the bottom of the ladder. You don’t care about the growing wealth inequality in the world and the growing wealth hordes by the 5%. You don’t care that kids are going hungry or that our public services are being left in a state of disrepair. Frankly you have to be at best selfish and at worst immoral to believe in any of that.

That’s off topic for this thread though and it’s clear that no matter your political allegiance a crime like this is out of order. I just think pretending that tories aren’t immoral is ridiculous. It would be better to just hold our hands up and admit that most people don’t give a damn about people other than themselves and that’s the case for that 50% in this country too.
Not the thread for it, as you say. Some people just vote purely on the basis someone is a good constituency MP.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Even the potential terrorism incident is speculative, unless something new came up it's a murder case with unknown motives and an ongoing investigation that ranges from terrorism to mental illness.
It probably is Islamic terrorism though. There’s no recent form for left wing political terrorism of this sort and the perp doesn’t fit the right wing nationalist profile. There is a relatively recent Islamic terrorist incident that this incident appears to be a carbon copy of. Of course it’s still speculative but it would be a surprise at this point if it turned out to be anything else.
 

Gehrman

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Even the potential terrorism incident is speculative, unless something new came up it's a murder case with unknown motives and an ongoing investigation that ranges from terrorism to mental illness.
The police probably have a good reason to say what they are saying now that they have suspect, his phone and his profile.
 

JPRouve

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It probably is Islamic terrorism though. There’s no recent form for left wing political terrorism of this sort and the perp doesn’t fit the right wing nationalist profile. There is a relatively recent Islamic terrorist incident that this incident appears to be a carbon copy of. Of course it’s still speculative but it would be a surprise at this point if it turned out to be anything else.
I'm not suggesting that it's not but it's still speculation, whether you have a sound reason to assume something, it's still speculation and the police don't actually have a choice, they have to speculate and eliminate theories unless the aggressor explains convincingly his actions.

The police probably have a good reason to say what they are saying now that they have suspect, his phone and his profile.
The police made that statement a very short amount of time after the event and they simply made a statement that doesn't exclude terrorism while the press(The Independent) ran with it. It doesn't matter if the speculation ends up being correct, it's speculation until solid proofs are provided.
 

oates

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I'm not suggesting that it's not but it's still speculation, whether you have a sound reason to assume something, it's still speculation and the police don't actually have a choice, they have to speculate and eliminate theories unless the aggressor explains convincingly his actions.



The police made that statement a very short amount of time after the event and they simply made a statement that doesn't exclude terrorism while the press(The Independent) ran with it. It doesn't matter if the speculation ends up being correct, it's speculation until solid proofs are provided.
This statement made JPR first thing this morning in the Guardian -

In a statement, the Metropolitan police said the senior national coordinator for counter-terrorism policing, Deputy Assistant Commissioner Dean Haydon, had formally declared the incident as terrorism. The early investigation has revealed “a potential motivation linked to Islamist extremism”, the force said.
Full article - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ce-take-over-inquiry-into-david-amess-killing

It seems a confident statement to make so soon however the attacker may be quite proud of his motive and keen that it is known.
 

JPRouve

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This statement made JPR first thing this morning in the Guardian -



Full article - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ce-take-over-inquiry-into-david-amess-killing

It seems a confident statement to make so soon however the attacker may be quite proud of his motive and keen that it is known.
That's still speculation. I'm not questioning whether it is terrorism or not, that's not the point. The point is that people have a strange way of seeing speculation, it seems to depend on whether they agree with a statement or not. And being confident is irrelevant, you can have a very good reason to speculate a certain way, it doesn't change the nature of your statement.
 

Pogue Mahone

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I don’t think you can at this point in time. Andrew Pennington was murdered in 2000 trying to protect his local MP from being murdered by an aggrieved constituent. An Islamic extremist tried to murder to murder Stephen Timms MP in 2010 in exactly the same way as this case appears to be.
Ah. Didn’t realise that.
 

oates

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That's still speculation. I'm not questioning whether it is terrorism or not, that's not the point. The point is that people have a strange way of seeing speculation, it seems to depend on whether they agree with a statement or not. And being confident is irrelevant, you can have a very good reason to speculate a certain way, it doesn't change the nature of your statement.
In truth we have no clue whether it is speculation or not. A full confession might have been signed and sealed within a few hours. You are nit pickin' just a bit I feel.
 

JPRouve

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In truth we have no clue whether it is speculation or not. A full confession might have been signed and sealed within a few hours. You are nit pickin' just a bit I feel.
I'm nitpicking, if that's the correct term, because people did that earlier in the thread. The reality is that everything is speculative until the investigation is finished including the veracity of written confessions.
 

oates

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I'm nitpicking, if that's the correct term, because people did that earlier in the thread. The reality is that everything is speculative until the investigation is finished including the veracity of written confessions.
Yes, all is speculation including believing what our news media is feeding us. If we allowed ourselves we could convince ourselves that we always will be speculating..

I think however there are a few things that would be on the safe side - not completely safe, no - but the 'Authorities' mentioned that he had been monitored at some stage, his contacts may be known, the mosque and people he associated with maybe known and any reasons he has offered himself. Interviews of neighbours, friends, work colleagues, beliefs he discussed, all a quick matter of record by now. This will have been of huge priority with the Police fearing further attacks. But that is all speculation.

Who must we find and when to believe in? What will suit us?
 

JPRouve

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Yes, all is speculation including believing what our news media is feeding us. If we allowed ourselves we could convince ourselves that we always will be speculating..

I think however there are a few things that would be on the safe side - not completely safe, no - but the 'Authorities' mentioned that he had been monitored at some stage, his contacts may be known, the mosque and people he associated with maybe known and any reasons he has offered himself. Interviews of neighbours, friends, work colleagues, beliefs he discussed, all a quick matter of record by now. This will have been of huge priority with the Police fearing further attacks. But that is all speculation.

Who must we find and when to believe in? What will suit us?
That's not the point, I'm not questioning the speculation or asking you to not believe but simply stated that it was also speculation. To be clear Berbasbullet was wondering if speculating was appropriate and the answer is yes, everyone is speculating.
 

oates

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That's not the point, I'm not questioning the speculation or asking you to not believe but simply stated that it was also speculation. To be clear Berbasbullet was wondering if speculating was appropriate and the answer is yes, everyone is speculating.
The point is that we are now speculating on what is speculation however as much as I agree with you we have a Police statement that says the attacker had a terrorist motive.
 

JPRouve

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The point is that we are now speculating on what is speculation however as much as I agree with you we have a Police statement that says the attacker had a terrorist motive.
The statement says that it potentially had a link to islamist extremism. He rightfully doesn't hide the speculative nature of his statement because there is an investigation.
 

oates

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The statement says that it potentially had a link to islamist extremism. He rightfully doesn't hide the speculative nature of his statement because there is an investigation.
This is a potential link to Islamist extremism but still labelled an act of Terrorism by the Deputy Assistant Commissioner.
 

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The statement says that it potentially had a link to islamist extremism. He rightfully doesn't hide the speculative nature of his statement because there is an investigation.
I think there's a confusion with language, in English speculation is "the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence", so it's just the wrong word to use. Evidence can be disputed of course, but I don't believe the police would have issued their statement without any, they normally err on the side of caution before declaring an incident to be terrorist, simply to avoid inflaming matters more.
 

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Worth noting that, right now, Conservative Brexiteers make up the majority of our politicians. So to suggest he was targeted for being a Conservative Brexiteer isn't more likely than him being targeted purely for being a public figure.

feck knows, Oates said it better than me. Absolutely horrible news all the same.
 

JPRouve

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I think there's a confusion with language, in English speculation is "the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence", so it's just the wrong word to use. Evidence can be disputed of course, but I don't believe the police would have issued their statement without any, they normally err on the side of caution before declaring an incident to be terrorist, simply to avoid inflaming matters more.
The police will definitely make that type of statement, they didn't actually say much and there is nothing wrong with what they said. They need to go into a certain direction, give the case to a particular department and if they believe that it's potentially a case of terrorism they will tell you that because everyone will know it quite quickly when the case is being led by counter-terrorism police. The statement itself doesn't change much when it comes to speculation outside of the idea that they have a good reason to go in that direction.
 

NotThatSoph

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Ok, next time Boris says something inflamatory I’m sure everyone on here will be cool about it.
Because as we all know, either we are ok with things or they lead to terrorist attacks. That's the two options.
 

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it’s depressing that this thread is not simply expressions of regret and horror. Any attempt to “explain” is intellectually and morally bankrupt.
 

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it’s depressing that this thread is not simply expressions of regret and horror. Any attempt to “explain” is intellectually and morally bankrupt.
Trying to understand why our society is crumbling is crucial in the attempt to stop it crumbling.

Simply reacting to each individual horror show event will only lead us further down the road to ruin.

Basically everyone in here has expressed regret and wished condolences over this repulsive crime.

Discourse about the state of the country, the feelings of hatred and madness that have been purposely stoked by the government over the last 10 years, and people’s concern over them ARE topical on this subject. To discuss them in order to gain understanding is natural.

Conversation is a positive thing when awful events like this happen.