Cop in America doing a bad job, again

[WI_Red]

What is "actively threatened"? Is that a legal requirement for LEO response or perhaps something you have introduced to help your arguments?

I'm really only interested in the law here. We ask LEOs to "guess" all the time though.

I'm less concerned about legality and more concerned about people not dying. When I lived in Alabama I could legally shoot you if you came on my property and I claimed I felt threatened. In the US it is basically legal (because less than 1% get convicted) for an LEO to shoot someone. If you are good with letting every single LEO be the arbiter of death than that is a position from which we can find no common ground.

Sticking to just the cases on tap, if the video evidence shows they are not in actual danger at the moment they pull the trigger than they are guilty of manslaughter at the least. I don't give a shit if they "feel" threatened. They do not get to kill us because of their feels, because if their feels govern them then they should find a career elsewhere. As I stated before, we have ceded a portion of our constitutional rights to LEO, but their side of the bargain is that they use them at all times judiciously[.

 

[ReallyUSA]

If only you all had the same attitude to guns, you wouldn't be in this mess.

I do, I didn't own a pistol until I was 31 and I had to protect someone besides myself. Saying the "he's no angel" line is such [redacted]. A person doesn't have to be angel, to not die. Again, these cops aren't being drafted into their departments. This was their choice, their job, and they should be held to the highest standard REGARDLESS of their environment.

 

[WI_Red]

I do, I didn't own a pistol until I was 31 and I had to protect someone besides myself. Saying the "he's no angel" line is such [redacted]. A person doesn't have to be angel, to not die. Again, these cops aren't being drafted into their departments. This was their choice, their job, and they should be held to the highest standard REGARDLESS of their environment.

No no no, you are missing the point. Police get to kill anyone they want as long as they feel threatened as long as the person they shoot is not white. Don't believe me? Just turn on the news on any day that ends in a "Y".

you are not actually missing the point

 

[ReallyUSA]

No no no, you are missing the point. Police get to kill anyone they want as long as they feel threatened as long as the person they shoot is not white. Don't believe me? Just turn on the news on any day that ends in a "Y".

Oooh you are right. When my friends and I got beat up by cops to figuring out why we couldn't get into a club in the Bay Area before gentrification, we were simply the wrong shade. They punch my friend in the back of the police car, and had an undercover cop bodyslam me unwarranted while I was recording while making sure I never saw my phone again. I was no angel so it's all good.

 

[WI_Red]

Oooh you are right. When my friends and I got beat up by cops to figuring out why we couldn't get into a club in the Bay Area before gentrification, we were simply the wrong shade. They punch my friend in the back of the police car, and had an undercover cop bodyslam me unwarranted while I was recording while making sure I never saw my phone again. I was no angel so it's all good.

Good on them. I hope you learned you lesson Beyoncé (hoping this reference pulls through.....)

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

I find it difficult to understand why a major part of the conversation isn't about how a 13 year old has a gun. It's very casually accepted that it must not have been that difficult for him to get it somewhere.

The situation becomes murky when you take circumstances into account, yes. Difficult neighborhood, unusual time of night, lack of visibility, kid throwing the gun away in the split second he takes to put his arms up, the bias of the officers and self-preservation instinct kicking in, potentially overriding their training, etc. But why did the situation have to be so in he first place?

I'm not taking away from the tragedy of the situation or the complexity of it. It is heartbreaking that an unarmed teenager was shot and died.

I'm just saying, like most non-Americans would, that there's too many guns in America and that's bound to lead to situations like this very often.

Maybe next time the officer remembers this incident and doesn't shoot, but the kid panics and pulls the trigger. Maybe the cops get there too late and a 'good guy with a gun' gets the kid first. A lot of possibile situations, a lot of them resulting in harm, almost all of them negated if there's no fecking guns involved.

 

[berbatrick]

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I'm sure both are legal, so they're of course good and fine. If the cop perceived that the grandmother was about to use her glasses to bludgeon him to death then he should have killed her. We should thank him for his restraint.

...

About the 13 yo - guns are legal and are hence familiar to the police. If someone complies with instructions and throws away his weapon and then gets shot that's on the police.

 

[Skizzo]

 

[Sweet Square]

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[Eboue]

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[Grinner]

The difference between the first quoted post & the second.

I can’t put them to the specific minute, but they seem to be similar response times from when the two incidents were seen in the media. Both posts seemed to come within a couple of hours of seeing the videos.

Posts? From whom?

I'm confused about what you are trying to say here so maybe lay it out for me?

 

[calodo2003]

How exactly does a license plate reader work? Where are they located? How many are out there?

Other than the obvious concern for the surreal Big Brother surveillance issue of such a reader, I just don’t see anything for which the cop could be criticized.

Perhaps a civilian being hit down range past the perpetrator? But that would be almost nitpicking.

Cop did it right here.

 

[calodo2003]

Posts? From whom?

I'm confused about what you are trying to say here so maybe lay it out for me?

All three of those posts are from you.

Your first post came a couple of hours after the Ashli Babbitt shooting she was erroneously depicted as 16 y/o white female.

Your second two posts came a couple of hours after the video of the Adam Toledo shooting.

I’m curious about the shift in tone & in stance from the first post to the second two posts.

Both events (especially when believing Ashli was a 16 y/o, as we all did for a short period of time) are very, very similar, yet with key differences.

 

[choiboyx012]

What a shot. And very lucky not to get shot at.

 

[calodo2003]

What a shot. And very lucky not to get shot at.

Forgot to mention that. Quite a distance, especially outdoors / just off a fecking highway.

 

[choiboyx012]

How exactly does a license plate reader work? Where are they located? How many are out there?

Other than the obvious concern for the surreal Big Brother surveillance issue of such a reader, I just don’t see anything for which the cop could be criticized.

Perhaps a civilian being hit down range past the perpetrator? But that would be almost nitpicking.

Cop did it right here.

Some police vehicles have cameras mounted and aimed towards where license plates are, and take snapshots. If the vehicle is stolen or is wanted in a reported crime it will alert on the screen. License plates are not deemed to be private.

 

[calodo2003]

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If only they did it during the day with cute colored smoke.

 

[calodo2003]

Some police vehicles have cameras mounted and aimed towards where license plates are, and take snapshots. If the vehicle is stolen or is wanted in a reported crime it will alert on the screen. License plates are not deemed to be private.

These aren’t affixed in certain locations like toll booths or on / off ramps?

How ubiquitous are they?

I remember hearing about them during the 2014ish Virginia newscaster / cameraman murder chase, that a highway patrolman was able to identify the perpetrator’s car through such a device or very similar. It was rather quickly hushed up, but it caused a stir as such devices weren’t readily known to the public.

 

[Grinner]

All three of those posts are from you.

Your first post came a couple of hours after the Ashli Babbitt shooting she was erroneously depicted as 16 y/o white female.

Your second two posts came a couple of hours after the video of the Adam Toledo shooting.

I’m curious about the shift in tone & in stance from the first post to the second two posts.

Both events (especially when believing Ashli was a 16 y/o, as we all did for a short period of time) are very, very similar, yet with key differences.

No, I was surprised that a 16 year old was storming the Capitol. Another poster said she deserved to die and I said that was a heartless thing to say.

Did I ever say that Toledo deserved to die?

So what exactly are you arguing here? Don't be coy about it.

 

[Grinner]

Cop did it right here.

The suspect was running away. Was he still a threat?

 

[Rado_N]

These aren’t affixed in certain locations like toll booths or on / off ramps?

How ubiquitous are they?

I remember hearing about them during the 2014ish Virginia newscaster / cameraman murder chase, that a highway patrolman was able to identify the perpetrator’s car through such a device or very similar. It was rather quickly hushed up, but it caused a stir as such devices weren’t readily known to the public.

I don’t know about the US but ANPR is frigging everywhere over here.

 

[calodo2003]

The suspect was running away. Was he still a threat?

He was running back to the vehicle, vehicles have often been deemed weapons before. That’s one argument being bandied about in the Wright case.

He literally exchanged fire with the officer moments prior to the killing.

Yes, he was a threat. Just like Toledo was a threat to the Chicago officer. Key difference to me is that Toledo was complying when he was shot, this recent character wasn’t.

 

[Grinner]

He was running back to the vehicle, vehicles have often been deemed weapons before. That’s one argument being bandied about in the Wright case.

He literally exchanged fire with the officer moments prior to the killing.

Yes, he was a threat. Just like Toledo was a threat to the Chicago officer. Key difference to me is that Toledo was complying when he was shot, this recent character wasn’t.

The cop is also endangering other motorists by firing wildly like that, no?

This character wasn't complying with what? I didn't hear any directives.

 

[calodo2003]

No, I was surprised that a 16 year old was storming the Capitol. Another poster said she deserved to die and I said that was a heartless thing to say.

Did I ever say that Toledo deserved to die?

So what exactly are you arguing here? Don't be coy about it.

It most likely was to me as I stated that it wasn’t tragic for Ashli to be killed as she knew full well what she was doing crazy; it certainly wasn’t a ‘tragedy’ by any measure, if she was 16 or 35. The rancorous responses were ‘well, she was only 16!,’ ‘how can anyone expect a 16 y/o to be held responsible for her actions?,’ ‘she was obviously radicalized.’

I, & it looks like no one else, never said ‘she deserved to die.’

Now a 13 y/o is shot & killed under similar circumstances, but some key differences.

Similarities are both are during the commission of a crime, after being instructed to stop / cease, both deemed having been underage (at the time of the postings).

Differences are that Toledo verifiable had a weapon to the CPD officer, Toledo was retreating / Babbitt was advancing, one was a solo event while the other was in the middle of a mass riot (both were threatening to the officer involved, but to various degrees), gender, race, & age (we could quibble about adolescent maturity, but there is a large maturation development that occurs from 13 to 16).

I don’t know your thoughts, that’s why I am asking. Your posts do show a differentiation in tone & reasoning regarding two quite similar events. Is it due to age, gender, race, timeline, environment? I don’t know.

I feel both victims hold varying degrees of culpability for the results in both events, neither are absolved from blame. No one is / has said either deserved to die, but the ‘tragedy’ levels in both events aren’t similar - there’s an element of tragedy in the Toledo case as he was complying.

 

[Grinner]

It most likely was to me as I stated that it wasn’t tragic for Ashli to be killed as she knew full well what she was doing crazy; it certainly wasn’t a ‘tragedy’ by any measure, if she was 16 or 35. The rancorous responses were ‘well, she was only 16!,’ ‘how can anyone expect a 16 y/o to be held responsible for her actions?,’ ‘she was obviously radicalized.’

I, & it looks like no one else, never said ‘she deserved to die.’

It's not tragic though. She attacked the house of congress and deserved it. No one else was shot in the neck even when they menacingly chased Capitol police around the building or raided the speakers office. She obviously did something really fecked up. Her death could be worse though, she could of been lynched in a texas jail with a trash bag for not signaling during a lane change. feck her and the rest of the pieces of shit that fell for a con man's garbage.

 

[calodo2003]

The cop is also endangering other motorists by firing wildly like that, no?

This character wasn't complying with what? I didn't hear any directives.

I mentioned exactly that in one of my posts. There was a concern with civilian casualties down range, no doubt.

Point taken on ‘compliance.’ Poor wording on my part. The perpetrator was running back to the vehicle, this has been used in the past as a justification for deadly force as vehicles can be deemed as a weapon. He posed a threat to the officer & civilians if he got back behind the wheel.

I’m not going to say there could have been more weapons in the SUV is a justification, that gets a little into pure conjecture.

Not every cop related shooting is the same. I think it’s responsible to deem some justified when they are.

It’s where the individual civilian’s needle falls on that scale that determines such.

 

[choiboyx012]

These aren’t affixed in certain locations like toll booths or on / off ramps?

How ubiquitous are they?

I remember hearing about them during the 2014ish Virginia newscaster / cameraman murder chase, that a highway patrolman was able to identify the perpetrator’s car through such a device or very similar. It was rather quickly hushed up, but it caused a stir as such devices weren’t readily known to the public.

I don’t know the numbers but it’s becoming more common in public areas like transport hubs and highways

 

[villain]

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[Rado_N]

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Something something bad apple.

 

[calodo2003]

Fair enough, did not catch what @GiddyUp said. I don’t particularly agree with him, she didn’t ‘deserve’ to die, she died through the result of her actions.

That doesn’t negate my curiosity, though. A far more intensive discussion has been had in here regarding the age of Toledo, his actions prior to the shooting, ‘should he be out so late, why did he have a gun,’ etc. A similar, albeit much briefer, discussion about Babbitt’s reasoning for being there happened, don’t think you opined further on that there.

When you found out she was an adult, you rightfully called her a ‘daft cow.’

I’m curious as to what your thoughts Would be if Babbitt has been a 16 y/o after all. If you don’t want to answer as we are getting a bit into conjecture here, no worries at all. Not trying to ‘gotcha’ here, this is a thread where we tend to validate our opinions a bit more thoroughly than others. Again, curiosity.

 

[calodo2003]

Something something bad apple.

A bit of levity to a serious thread...

Spoiler: Apples

 

[Grinner]

Fair enough, did not catch what @GiddyUp said. I don’t particularly agree with him, she didn’t ‘deserve’ to die, she died through the result of her actions.

That doesn’t negate my curiosity, though. A far more intensive discussion has been had in here regarding the age of Toledo, his actions prior to the shooting, ‘should he be out so late, why did he have a gun,’ etc. A similar, albeit much briefer, discussion about Babbitt’s reasoning for being there happened, don’t think you opined further on that.

When you found out she was an adult, you rightfully called her a ‘daft cow.’

I’m curious as to what your thoughts Would be if Babbitt has been a 16 y/o after all. If you don’t want to answer as we are getting a bit into conjecture here, no worries at all. Not trying to ‘gotcha’ here, this is a thread where we tend to validate our opinions a bit more thoroughly than others. Again, curiosity.

I was disturbed that a 16 year old might be so radicalized by her parents that she was storming the US Capitol. I don't think I've ever mentioned anything about the failings of Toledo's parents/family because not enough is known about it really. More blame probably lies with the 21 year old who gave him the gun but Toledo is still responsible for most of his own actions.

 

[calodo2003]

I was disturbed that a 16 year old might be so radicalized by her parents that she was storming the US Capitol. I don't think I've ever mentioned anything about the failings of Toledo's parents/family because not enough is known about it really. More blame probably lies with the 21 year old who gave him the gun but Toledo is still responsible for most of his own actions.

Even at 13?

Grinner, I appreciate the responses. I really do.

Your call for a ‘kids out late’ thread, while it may have contained some or complete facetiousness, isn’t a bad one. It would be a dicey, contentious one, though as it would touch on many hot button topics & tangents.

 

[Grinner]

Even at 13?

Grinner, I appreciate the responses. I really do.

Your call for a ‘kids out late’ thread, while it may have contained some or complete facetiousness, isn’t a bad one. It would be a dicey, contentious one, though as it would touch on many hot button topics & tangents.

I can only think back to when I was 13 and I would certainly have known that running from an armed cop at night wasn't a smart choice. Neither was hanging with an armed adult and firing off rounds in the street, especially somewhere like Chicago.

He didn't deserve to die, but I understand why he did. Yes we can strive to prevent something like that happening again, but I don't think this incident is as problematic as many of the police shootings that have been discussed in this thread. I've been clear from the off that I think the LEO will escape prosecution and I do think that it is the right outcome too. It's just another tragedy with multiple victims that occurs because of the terrible gun culture in this country.

 

[calodo2003]

I can only think back to when I was 13 and I would certainly have known that running from an armed cop at night wasn't a smart choice. Neither was hanging with an armed adult and firing off rounds in the street, especially somewhere like Chicago.

He didn't deserve to die, but I understand why he did. Yes we can strive to prevent something like that happening again, but I don't think this incident is as problematic as many of the police shootings that have been discussed in this thread. I've been clear from the off that I think the LEO will escape prosecution and I do think that it is the right outcome too. It's just another tragedy with multiple victims that occurs because of the terrible gun culture in this country.

Absolutely. What part of the states are you in again? I can’t remember.

You mentioned potential radicalization with Ashli (which could have easily been the case if she was in fact 16, self-radicalization through the internet or grooming through parents / family). That would be an interesting discussion about how culpable she would have been in her actions if she was a indeed radicalized 16 y/o, where her culpability would have lay / lie / laid (whatever the proper word is).

In some ways, Toledo may have been radicalized / normalized to consider what he was doing as acceptable / not too bad due to his environment / media / internet / gun culture.

 

[Grinner]

Absolutely. What part of the states are you in again? I can’t remember.

You mentioned potential radicalization with Ashli (which could have easily been the case if she was in fact 16, self-radicalization through the internet or grooming through parents / family). That would be an interesting discussion about how culpable she would have been in her actions if she was a indeed radicalized 16 y/o, where her culpability would have lay / lie / laid (whatever the proper word is).

In some ways, Toledo may have been radicalized / normalized to consider what he was doing as acceptable / not too bad due to his environment / media / internet / gun culture.

Currently in Northern California. I have pretty decent experience with firearms too from military background. I'm scared of cops here and I'm scared of people too. I've been saying for years that the US is fecked and that's why I'm getting out. I think cops have a difficult job and it takes big balls to go out day after day when you know the simplest looking interaction could rapidly turn deadly but I have no idea how to solve it and I really don't think it ever will be solved. It will just keep getting worse.

 

[NotThatSoph]

I can only think back to when I was 13 and I would certainly have known that running from an armed cop at night wasn't a smart choice. Neither was hanging with an armed adult and firing off rounds in the street, especially somewhere like Chicago.

He didn't deserve to die, but I understand why he did. Yes we can strive to prevent something like that happening again, but I don't think this incident is as problematic as many of the police shootings that have been discussed in this thread. I've been clear from the off that I think the LEO will escape prosecution and I do think that it is the right outcome too. It's just another tragedy with multiple victims that occurs because of the terrible gun culture in this country.

Neither is turning around unarmed with your hands raised, as ordered, it turns out.

 

[Eboue]

big balls

 

[calodo2003]

Currently in Northern California. I have pretty decent experience with firearms too from military background. I'm scared of cops here and I'm scared of people too. I've been saying for years that the US is fecked and that's why I'm getting out. I think cops have a difficult job and it takes big balls to go out day after day when you know the simplest looking interaction could rapidly turn deadly but I have no idea how to solve it and I really don't think it ever will be solved. It will just keep getting worse.

Unfortunately right. To many, myself included & probably you as well, we are in a critical mass moment with violent policing in this country. But the reality is we are here through issues on both sides (to me, the institution is more to blame, but the citizenry / gun culture also have culpability).

It’s going to take a critical mass event(s) orders of magnitude larger to occur to begin to go down the road to solution. Until then, there will be more entrenchment that will be negative to both sides.

 

[VorZakone]

Fair enough, did not catch what @GiddyUp said. I don’t particularly agree with him, she didn’t ‘deserve’ to die, she died through the result of her actions.

That doesn’t negate my curiosity, though. A far more intensive discussion has been had in here regarding the age of Toledo, his actions prior to the shooting, ‘should he be out so late, why did he have a gun,’ etc. A similar, albeit much briefer, discussion about Babbitt’s reasoning for being there happened, don’t think you opined further on that there.

When you found out she was an adult, you rightfully called her a ‘daft cow.’

I’m curious as to what your thoughts Would be if Babbitt has been a 16 y/o after all. If you don’t want to answer as we are getting a bit into conjecture here, no worries at all. Not trying to ‘gotcha’ here, this is a thread where we tend to validate our opinions a bit more thoroughly than others. Again, curiosity.

Has there really? I think it was more about how tragic it was he found himself in this high-stakes situation and that perhaps he was caught up in the gang life.

Some went on to blame Toledo (and were rightly called out on it) but I perceived the bigger discussion to have been about how problematic these older guys are who exploit and recruit these young kids into the gang culture, hence a 13-year old kid finding himself in a situation he shouldn't have been in.