Coronavirus Draft - R1: P-Nut vs Indnyc

[Physiocrat]

P-Nut



Indnyc

P-Nut

The general idea was to build a superior version of Simeones best Atletico side keeping their defensive brilliance, but hugely improving their attacking side.

Defence

The defence speaks for itself in terms of being solid, but even on a personnel level it is pretty well matched up.

Bertie Vogts; Offering so much on the defensive side, but adding an overlapping threat at a higher quality than what Juanfran ever offered.

Demyanenko - As Vogts on the other side. A defensively sound fullback, but providing more attacking threat then Felipe Luis.

Godin and Miranda will be replaced with Marcel Desailly (the more disciplined of the two CBs) and most complete defender of all time in Franz Beckenbauer who will have the license to go forward and influence attack. Two players who compliment so much to each other, marking, dominating in the air, positioning, intelligence, commanding presence, leadership and ball playing ability combined.


Midfield

Instead of Koke, Tiago, Gabi and Saul step in:

David Beckham - Hard working and so comfortable on the ball that he can play in central midfield. Beckham also adds another dimension from crosses, free kicks and corners that most players in history just can't match.

Luis Suarez Miramontes - Tasked with being hard working whilst dictating play, Suarez steps in and elevates his play to a complete new level.

N'Golo Kanté - The key in the midfield to making that side work. Expect none stop graft putting out fires all over the pitch. Also had his best season in a 442 at Leicester.

Pavel Nedved - Left, right, center, you say it Nedved will play it with tromendous amount of work-rate. He will be free to drift inside more often and link the play together with the other creative players while offering a huge goal-threat.

Attack

Roberto Baggio - Griezmann type; The player to spark the attack. Baggio was a mercurial that you wouldn't expect to fit in here, however Griezmann was extremely similar and had his best years playing in the same system. Baggio is the type of player to thrive on the responsibility of orchestrating the attacking phases.

Luigi Riva - Falcao/Costa type; Riva takes the role of aggresive target man who can hold up the play and relieve pressure on the defence. Unlike the 2 previously charged with this role Riva has got the service of Beckham and Nedved from wide, with Suarez and Baggio centrally creating for him.

Conclusion: Deadly in attack with direct, fast paced football. Shut the middle of the park and force opponent wide while being in the defensive phase.

Indnyc

Formation: Lop sided 4-3-3

Tactics: The team is built around the genius of Sir Bobby Charlton with a devastating front 3 of Romario, Muller, and Hamrin. He is backed up by a destroyer in Stiles and B2B in Vieira

The defense is built around Figueroa and Vidic with 2 strong fullbacks and one of the greatest modern goalkeepers in Kahn

 

[Physiocrat]

Game on!

@Indnyc @P-Nut

 

[Physiocrat]

Indnyc would be much better if he had gone for more of a 442 with Charlton on the left with Romario closer to Muller.

 

[Indnyc]

Indnyc would be much better if he had gone for more of a 442 with Charlton on the left with Romario closer to Muller.

To be fair, that's essentially how it would play out.. Charlton would drift to the left often.. His game was always to have a freeish role and drift from center to the wings

Romario will go closer to Muller as his normal playing style. It will essentially become a lop sided 4-3-3 with Hamrin generally being wider

In terms of the game itself, i think my team is definitely suited to a team playing centrally/counter attacking.. Stiles and Vieira are perfectly suited to stop counter attacks..

In terms of the attack, as much as i like P-Nut's front line, my fire power is much superior.. Muller, and Romario (and Hamrin) will score against any opposition..

 

[Šjor Bepo]

agree with physio, classic 442 with Sir Bobby on the left would be a more natural fit and that odd GOAT partnership would look better.

as for peanut and beam, just dont know enough about Baggio to say if he is a good fit or not specially given the importance of Griezmann for the system but what i can say is that Beckenbauer doesnt belong there, odd first pick if you had this system in mind since the start or just a odd decision to go that route once you had Kaiser. A regular 442 would be a much better choice once again. Rest of the team is fantastic as is indy's tbf.

 

[Indnyc]

@Physiocrat do you mind changing the formation in the OP? Use the one I have in the reply to you..

 

[Jim Beam]

P-nut will lead, I will have just one post.

Agree with sjor that Beckenbauer looks an odd fit, but we wanted to try something a bit different and use him in a different system imagining what he can bring while maintaining the basic principles of the tactics.

But, in general, in terms of 4-4-2, the players fits and their roles pretty much everything is nailed. Beckenbauer between Vogts/Desailly, Suarez alongside b2b destroyer, hard working wingers, one to stretch you, one to cross or drift inside giving two different issues to cope with. And then that Italian link upfront. While you can say Elias and Vidic are well suited to deal with Riva (although having Beckham and Riva is always a constant danger and almost impossible to stop) it is perfect for someone like Baggio behind to thrive. Or Nedved bombing behind.

I think it is just a better built team all around imho.

In terms of the game itself, i think my team is definitely suited to a team playing centrally/counter attacking.. Stiles and Vieira are perfectly suited to stop counter attacks..

Quite the opposite.

Can switch, turn, loop it, but the only team that is attacking centrally here is yours. Charlton loved to drift left, yes, but he is no winger. On the other side, it is pretty much the same issue as Hamrin while acting more as one also loved to drift centrally and doesn't have an overlapping full-back.

And this is going against a side which will, if initial press doesn't work, go narrow and block the midfield of the park intentionally forcing you wide. While you are having none, or very little of that threat.

That is all from me, wish you good luck Indy and you two have a lovely debate.

 

[P-Nut]

@Indnyc I'm guessing the new formation graphic will be a lopsided 442?

If so I don't see that as too much of an issue either. It puts Romario and Muller up against Beckenbauer and Desailly which is a GOAT partnership against GOAT partnership.

Also going to a 442 reduces the workload on my full backs having to defend 1v1 and allows them to provide the overlaps to Nedved and Beckham.

 

[Indnyc]

Quite the opposite.

Can switch, turn, loop it, but the only team that is attacking centrally here is yours. Charlton loved to drift left, yes, but he is no winger. On the other side, it is pretty much the same issue as Hamrin while acting more as one also loved to drift centrally and doesn't have an overlapping full-back.

And this is going against a side which will, if initial press doesn't work, go narrow and block the midfield of the park intentionally forcing you wide. While you are having none, or very little of that threat.

That is all from me, wish you good luck Indy and you two have a lovely debate.

I disagree about the width especially with regards to Hamrin.. He may come in to when there is scoring opportunities but would definitely provide width here.. It isn't like he's going to be static.. He is perfectly suited to exploit the gap between Desailly and Demayenko when Desailly steps out..

Charlton of course has a freeish role to drift from center to left (to center) wherever he has space.. With two defensive minded players behind him, he has a bit more freedom..

@Indnyc I'm guessing the new formation graphic will be a lopsided 442?

If so I don't see that as too much of an issue either. It puts Romario and Muller up against Beckenbauer and Desailly which is a GOAT partnership against GOAT partnership.

Also going to a 442 reduces the workload on my full backs having to defend 1v1 and allows them to provide the overlaps to Nedved and Beckham.

I don't see how it reduces workload on your fullbacks if they have to defend 1vs1? In general, 2 Goat goalscorers vs. 2 great defenders centrally yes but also two Goats (Hamrin top 5 right wingfowards?) wide.. I don't see my team not scoring..

All 4 of your defenders are would theoretically like to come out of defense which isn't really an Athletico type set up either.. Also, does Suarez really have the workrate for this kind of setup? I am not 100% convinced he is suited for a 2 man midfield though i could be wrong.

 

[Synco]

Also, does Suarez really have the workrate for this kind of setup? I am not 100% convinced he is suited for a 2 man midfield though i could be wrong.

From what I've seen, I think he had.

 

[P-Nut]

I don't see how it reduces workload on your fullbacks if they have to defend 1vs1? In general, 2 Goat goalscorers vs. 2 great defenders centrally yes but also two Goats (Hamrin top 5 right wingfowards?) wide.. I don't see my team not scoring..

I said it reduces the workload of the full backs. They were previously against wingers in a 433 rather than a 442 which obviously drops the wingers a little deeper to deal with having the man less in the middle than you would in a 433.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

It should have been a 4-4-2 diamond.

.....Charlton....
Vieira...Coluna
.......Stiles........

No point dislodging Charlton and Romario to accommodate Hamrin. Coluna should have been the starter here.

Also, does Suarez really have the workrate for this kind of setup? I am not 100% convinced he is suited for a 2 man midfield though i could be wrong.

Iirc, it was just Suarez and Bedin in Grande Inter too. Baggio takes the Mazzola role. Plus Nedved and Beckham are good centrally too and will cover free spaces there.

.

Overall, there is a distinct lack of goal threat for PNut and that tips this in favour of Indnyc, I reckon.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Hamrin is not the right choice to play Charlton left and Romario central. You can't have two pure strikers and then a pure wing forward in the same team. Looks odd and doesn't work.

Hamrin should have been dropped for Coluna IMO. Would have been a straight forward diamond with Charlton behind Muller-Romario being very easy on the eye.

Agree with Sjor, the Simeone setup is not what the team looks to be made for (especially Kaiser and Baggio). It's an excellent ensemble, but the tactics need to be different. Perhaps more Sacchi or Fergie-esque.

Anyways, Pnut wins my vote.

 

[harms]

I really don't see the Atletico comparison, especially with Beckenbauer & Baggio (the latter was never an energetic player, Griezmann always works his bollocks off, as does every other Simeone's player, while Baggio often strolled through games before popping up with a moment of true genius). Only the choice of your wide players makes sense in that comparison. That takes nothing from the team though, it's perfectly balanced (with Beckenbauer adding the much needed holding presence at the back of midfield) and it's probably the best side of the first round.

I was intrigued by Romario/Müller and Hamrin before the game, but I have to say that I'm disappointed. One of them needs to be dropped, especially since neither Hamrin, nor Romario are going to add much defensively. Indnyc's team is quite good and it would've won a fair share of first round games here, but not against this juggernaut.

 

[harms]

I disagree about the width especially with regards to Hamrin.. He may come in to when there is scoring opportunities but would definitely provide width here.. It isn't like he's going to be static.. He is perfectly suited to exploit the gap between Desailly and Demayenko when Desailly steps out..

I found Hamrin quite odd, he was very different from most wide players of his generation. Although he was a brilliant dribbler, he very rarely asked for the ball and almost never consistently threatened opposition's fullback. Instead, he'd ghost through game before popping up at the end of an odd long ball to score a winner — time and again. It's really something that you usually see from more modern players and a very unorthodox interpretation of an outside right role at the time. Back to the point — he's far from an ideal choice to provide any width here.

 

[P-Nut]

I really don't see the Atletico comparison, especially with Beckenbauer & Baggio (the latter was never an energetic player, Griezmann always works his bollocks off, as does every other Simeone's player, while Baggio often strolled through games before popping up with a moment of true genius). Only the choice of your wide players makes sense in that comparison. That takes nothing from the team though, it's perfectly balanced (with Beckenbauer adding the much needed holding presence at the back of midfield) and it's probably the best side of the first round.

Agree with Sjor, the Simeone setup is not what the team looks to be made for (especially Kaiser and Baggio). It's an excellent ensemble, but the tactics need to be different. Perhaps more Sacchi or Fergie-esque

Yeah I think people are getting caught up on the Atletico link. Whilst it is based on the same strengths that team had, it was always the plan to improve on that rather than just copy and paste it.

For instance the defence is just as solid, yet has the ability to retain possession better hence reducing the pressure on them.

The only position that has any specific trait lessened is Griezmanns work rate compared to Baggio, but he's covered by every other single player in the team.

 

[Synco]

I agree that Indy's main problem will probably be a lack of width in the front four. And like others, I also feel a more proactive setup might fit P-Nut's/Beam's team better.

Although it has to be said that, during the 70s, Bayern indeed often played Simeone-like* in tough away games, finals, etc. Sometimes Beckenbauer was a rock, sometimes he could struggle (although I've seen it mostly happen when his defense was collectively overwhelmed). And I'm also sceptical about Baggio (but tbh, I can't really judge there). Even if this works, I think unleashing the enormous offensive potential of this team might still work better.

Apart from that I absolutely love P-Nut's/Beam's team, and they get my vote. Can't get much tastier than a Desailly/Beckenbauer partnership, and the rest is great as well.

-----
* very broadly speaking - of course they worked with man-marking & libero, and collective tactics weren't as intricate as today.

Edit: removed a perhaps questionable line on Indy's fullbacks

 

[harms]

Yeah I think people are getting caught up on the Atletico link. Whilst it is based on the same strengths that team had, it was always the plan to improve on that rather than just copy and paste it.

For instance the defence is just as solid, yet has the ability to retain possession better hence reducing the pressure on them.

The only position that has any specific trait lessened is Griezmanns work rate compared to Baggio, but he's covered by every other single player in the team.

Simeone's style is built on the basis of his players strengths and weaknesses. Your set of players lack a few strengths (Baggio's workrate and Beckenbauer's relative discomfort a in full-on defensive approach; it's not really a weakness, but it's definitely not the best way to use him) and have tons of additional qualities that Simeone's squad simply doesn't have. If Simeone had your players, he would've played very differently, and certainly in a more proactive way. If you're doing it anyway, I'm not sure why mention Simeone in the first place?

 

[Enigma_87]

Simeone's style is built on the basis of his players strengths and weaknesses. Your set of players lack a few strengths (Baggio's workrate and Beckenbauer's relative discomfort a in full-on defensive approach; it's not really a weakness, but it's definitely not the best way to use him) and have tons of additional qualities that Simeone's squad simply doesn't have. If Simeone had your players, he would've played very differently, and certainly in a more proactive way. If you're doing it anyway, I'm not sure why mention Simeone in the first place?

Spot on.

I'm not sure why this side is relevant to the Atletico one.

Simeone lacks the star names on the teamsheet and revolves his teams on the team effort, low block and vertical movement through the lines.

As @harms said if he had even half of those names on the teamsheet the set up would be definitely different.

Both teams look very well set up. for @Indnyc the only questionmark IMO is how Stiles would replicate the Gilberto role of sorts or is he an anchor that drops back whilst Sir Bobby assumes his CM position when off the ball?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Not to gang up, but I think even Suarez is not a great fit. It has been proven beyond doubt that he did have workrate but he wouldnt be anywhere near a Simeone team in my eyes.

 

[Gio]

Trying not to flog a dead horse, but it's more of a standard Ferguson/Capello/Sacchi 4-4-2 than a Simeone team. Atletico's midfield four has always been more of a tilted square/diamond, although certainly Nedved and Beckham are probably the two best players for such a system.

Not sold on the Muller/Romario partnership. Rest of the team is sound though.

 

[Synco]

Not to gang up, but I think even Suarez is not a great fit. It has been proven beyond doubt that he did have workrate but he wouldnt be anywhere near a Simeone team in my eyes.

Thinking about that: perhaps the earlier Barca version of him may actually be a good fit as a half-wide AM?

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Thinking about that: perhaps the earlier Barca version of him may actually be a good fit as a half-wide AM?

Yea, I think that role would suit him if he had to be in a a Simeone team

 

[Jim Beam]

It's actually Simeone/Capello/Sacchi/Lobanovsky/Fergie's love child <3

There you go.

 

[Indnyc]

Spot on.

I'm not sure why this side is relevant to the Atletico one.

Simeone lacks the star names on the teamsheet and revolves his teams on the team effort, low block and vertical movement through the lines.

As @harms said if he had even half of those names on the teamsheet the set up would be definitely different.

Both teams look very well set up. for @Indnyc the only questionmark IMO is how Stiles would replicate the Gilberto role of sorts or is he an anchor that drops back whilst Sir Bobby assumes his CM position when off the ball?

Stiles became famous for his man marking of Eusebio but it was not necessarily the role he played for United.. He actually was more gifted on the ball than people realize.. Though i would think more Makelele than Silva

 

[Indnyc]

It's actually Simeone/Capello/Sacchi/Lobanovsky/Fergie's love child <3

There you go.

 

[Indnyc]

Trying not to flog a dead horse, but it's more of a standard Ferguson/Capello/Sacchi 4-4-2 than a Simeone team. Atletico's midfield four has always been more of a tilted square/diamond, although certainly Nedved and Beckham are probably the two best players for such a system.

Not sold on the Muller/Romario partnership. Rest of the team is sound though.

Curious as to why a Muller Romario partnership doesn't work?I would think Romario would love to run at a defense which is already occupied with Muller

 

[Gio]

Curious as to why a Muller Romario partnership doesn't work?I would think Romario would love to run at a defense which is already occupied with Muller

Two very pure 9s paired together are usually not the sum of their parts. Romario's best partner was arguably Bebeto who was quicksilver, worked the channels, linked up play and was selfless. At club level he gelled beautifully with Laudrup who was a similarly selfless and 100% creative in providing chances. Obviously if you're dominating the opposition, you've probably got the best possible attack to capitalise on chances in the penalty box.

 

[The Red Viper]

Muller - Romario may not be the ideal strike-force but it can more than work well.

If it was someone like Inzaghi or RVN or Vieri etc, I can see the logic of that not working well.

But Romario is the kind of striker whom you can feed the ball to his feet and he can work his magic in tight spaces.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Congrats on the win @P-Nut

@Indnyc , stick around for the Coropa league reinforcements and QF games.

 

[P-Nut]

Good game @Indnyc good luck