Countries that ‘stopped’ producing top players...

[Rozay]

For as long as I remember, some countries always produce footballing talent. Different reasons behind it, some have great infrastructure, others are just football mad nations and seemingly born with it.

Brazil have always had a player amongst the best in the world. England have always at the very least had a few young players that are hoped will become amongst the world’s best. Argentina too.

When I was younger though, there was always at least one really good Bulgarian player. Romania had good players. They haven’t produced a player in years. When was the last time Serbia really produced world class technicians? In previous generations, there were always a few. Even the Netherlands went through about a decade of not much coming through recently. I know these things come in spells, but Brazil and England have never stopped producing players. The Germans similarly.

What is the reason for previously front-running countries seeing such declines in quality, while others have remained consistent? Russia have nothing near what they used to have, and haven’t for ages. They are a big country with huge resources. They have just stopped producing players.

 

[P-Ro]

Ireland comes to mind.

 

[711]

Scotland too, if not more so.

 

[Denis' cuff]

Scotland

 

[OleBoiii]

Denmark and Norway were much better in the 90's. I'd add Sweden to that list if it weren't for Zlatan.

Things are looking a bit promising for Norway now at least.

 

[P-Ro]

Scotland too, if not more so.

Scotland will have a midfield of McTominay and Billy Gilmour for the next decade. Not bad that.

 

[Rozay]

Yea, Scotland certainly a shout. Was a bit before my time that they always had top players, but I do know that going back in history they often had world class talent. Not just a ‘golden spell’, but consistently. Then nothing.

I’m curious as to what people think the reasoning for stuff like this is. Why haven’t Brazil or England ever gone 10-15 years without producing top players, if indeed it’s just as simple as ‘cycles’?

 

[Rozay]

Scotland will have a midfield of McTominay and Billy Gilmour for the next decade. Not bad that.

Gilmour could be a Championship player by 25 for all we know. Still too early to know what that’s worth just yet.

 

[Rory 7]

Yugoslavia.

 

[Rory 7]

CCCP too.

 

[P-Ro]

I’m curious as to what people think the reasoning for stuff like this is. Why haven’t Brazil or England ever gone 10-15 years without producing top players, if indeed it’s just as simple as ‘cycles’?

Brazil has historically been the largest (in terms of population) country where football is the main national sport. You can say similar things about England, Germany, Spain and France in Europe.

 

[Rory 7]

Shouldn't forget West Germany either. Haven't seen even a team from West Germany in years.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yea, Scotland certainly a shout. Was a bit before my time that they always had top players, but I do know that going back in history they often had world class talent. Not just a ‘golden spell’, but consistently. Then nothing.

I’m curious as to what people think the reasoning for stuff like this is. Why haven’t Brazil or England ever gone 10-15 years without producing top players, if indeed it’s just as simple as ‘cycles’?

It's because we have too much Irn-Bru, deep fried stuff, Tunnochs and whiskey. Too many other distractions...

In all seriousness though, I think there are many factors that can be looked at. In Scotland for example, even just when I play football on a weekend and through the week, (I live near Glasgow) there are so many guys that I know that were on the books at several clubs such as Rangers, Celtic, Motherwell, Hamilton and so on. And by the way, they are bloody good players, like much better than you're average lads who play for the love of the game. When I speak to them about how they didn't manage to make the final step, a lot of the time it is not a lack of ability or concentration, it comes down to money. A lot of these guys from the ages 16-18 earn a lot more money in normal working jobs, and it costs too much to keep paying their ways in these academies (getting to games and so on) and they ultimately have a decision to make, to persist and try to make it or take up a normal job. As you can imagine, if this is happening all over the country, you have a much smaller pool of people making their way in the game, which then prohibits the national standard even more.
Funding has been a serious issue for a long time, hence why there are numerous clubs in the bottom two divisions that are part-time. Funding is an issue even just for pitches and equipment too. There are plenty of pitches and facilities young lads can use, but again it is whether it is easily affordable or accessible for them to do so.

I've rambled a wee bit there, but I think there has been a lot of issues that have led to the national level up here diminishing over time, not least the amount of money and time that is given to the game from a young age.

 

[Rozay]

Brazil has historically been the largest (in terms of population) country where football is the main national sport. You can say similar things about England, Germany, Spain and France in Europe.

This is true but nations of differing sizes have been consistent with players I think. I don’t think the English are a big nation for example. Nor the French/Dutch. Certainly not in comparison to the Russians, who also used to produce a lot of great players.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Good thread.

Like to know different perspectives other than the natural "cycle".

Brazil may has to do with the current shift of focus in football now that is more towards systems, less on encouraging individual talents.

 

[Tel074]

Ireland comes to mind.

We have quite a few under age talents coming through so hopefully the last 10 years will be forgotten soon

 

[Rozay]

It's because we have too much Irn-Bru, deep fried stuff, Tunnochs and whiskey. Too many other distractions...

In all seriousness though, I think there are many factors that can be looked at. In Scotland for example, even just when I play football on a weekend and through the week, (I live near Glasgow) there are so many guys that I know that were on the books at several clubs such as Rangers, Celtic, Motherwell, Hamilton and so on. And by the way, they are bloody good players, like much better than you're average lads who play for the love of the game. When I speak to them about how they didn't manage to make the final step, a lot of the time it is not a lack of ability or concentration, it comes down to money. A lot of these guys from the ages 16-18 earn a lot more money in normal working jobs, and it costs too much to keep paying their ways in these academies (getting to games and so on) and they ultimately have a decision to make, to persist and try to make it or take up a normal job. As you can imagine, if this is happening all over the country, you have a much smaller pool of people making their way in the game, which then prohibits the national standard even more.
Funding has been a serious issue for a long time, hence why there are numerous clubs in the bottom two divisions that are part-time. Funding is an issue even just for pitches and equipment too. There are plenty of pitches and facilities young lads can use, but again it is whether it is easily affordable or accessible for them to do so.

I've rambled a wee bit there, but I think there has been a lot of issues that have led to the national level up here diminishing over time, not least the amount of money and time that is given to the game from a young age.

Thank you, no rambling at all - this is the sort of explanation I was after tbh. I ask this because I had considered things like poverty and economic factors, but then, although Brazil’s economy has strengthened massively - they have always produced players despite poverty. So I wondered whether talent would still make it elsewhere like Scotland regardless.

Perhaps the clubs could do more. You listen to the stories about what Barcelona did for Messi as a kid and wonder if perhaps, SPL clubs couldn’t spend money subsidising young players during the crucial years you speak of.

 

[McGrathsipan]

Ireland comes to mind.

yeah 1st country that sprung to my mind..

Robbie Keane
Roy Keane
Damien Duff
Liam Brady
Denis Irwin



Literally no players of note these days from Ireland playing at a high level

 

[Rozay]

yeah 1st country that sprung to my mind..

Robbie Keane
Roy Keane
Damien Duff
Liam Brady
Denis Irwin



Literally no players of note these days from Ireland playing at a high level

Could this also be down to international declaration though? Grealish and Rice are two recent examples of top eligible talent that have opted for England instead of Ireland.

 

[BigDunc9]

I think England had a bad 12 year spell of not producing any top quality. Between Rooney's debut in 2003 until Kane emerged in 2014 I would say England's output wasn't very good at all unless I am forgetting someone obvious ?

 

[Velvet Revolver]

For some reason the first country that came to my mind is Romania

 

[P-Ro]

This is true but nations of differing sizes have been consistent with players I think. I don’t think the English are a big nation for example. Nor the French/Dutch. Certainly not in comparison to the Russians, who also used to produce a lot of great players.

I didn't include the Dutch because their population is small compared to France, England and Germany. The fact that there are small nations like Uruguay and Holland who seemingly have top players coming through every decade is not really relevant to my point about England and Brazil, though it is an interesting topic in itself. I'd disagree about England not being a 'big nation' because the countries with larger populations have historically not been footballing nations so in the context of footballing nations, we are one of the big boys. As for Russia, I don't consider the country to be footballing nation comparable with England, Brazil and Germany because their national sport is ice hockey.

 

[GifLord]

Italy

 

[Inter Yer Nan]

Hungary comes to mind.

Scotland and Ireland are good shouts too. Some genuine all-time greats come from both but not in a while.

 

[Rozay]

I didn't include the Dutch because their population is small compared to France, England and Germany. The fact that there are small nations like Uruguay and Holland who seemingly have top players coming through every decade is not really relevant to my point about England and Brazil, though it is an interesting topic in itself. I'd disagree about England not being a 'big nation' because the countries with larger populations have historically not been footballing nations so in the context of footballing nations, we are one of the big boys. As for Russia, I don't consider the country to be footballing nation comparable with England, Brazil and Germany because their national sport is ice hockey.

Of course, the reason I referenced the Dutch (and Uruguay as you added) is they could present the argument that ‘size doesn’t matter’ (to borrow a phrase!). Some countries just have something. Uruguay always have some world class talent it seems. I was thinking they would be done after Suarez and Cavani, but then you have Bentancur and Valverde coming through.

I agree that I don’t see Russia as a ‘footballing nation’ per se, I referenced them as they are a big country with huge resource that used to produce top players, and certainly have the resource to have continued to do so, but haven’t. I haven’t mentioned China, as they have no real track record.

I guess the political and geographical landscape has changed too. USSR isn’t the same, so perhaps it’s unfair to expect Russia to just churn out players the same way. Yugoslavia is now Serbia I believe, and they are far from the force they used to be. That said, perhaps they were just a nation enjoying a good cycle in the 80s/early 90s. I don’t recall many greats from earlier decades than that.

 

[2 man midfield]

Czech Republic was the first that came to mind. Nedved, Cech, Poborsky, Rosicky, Koller, Baros, Jankulovski...then no-one. They were a top side around 15-20 years ago.

 

[Zlatattack]

Scotland will have a midfield of McTominay and Billy Gilmour for the next decade. Not bad that.

Don't forget Andy Robertson, McGinn, Ryan Fraser. They're not bad players either.

 

[V.O.]

Czech Republic was the first that came to mind. Nedved, Cech, Poborsky, Rosicky, Koller, Baros, Jankulovski...then no-one. They were a top side around 15-20 years ago.

Most of eastern Europe seems to suffer from this, but I can't think of another side who fell off such a cliff so fast. Feels like yesterday they were about the equivalent of what Belgium are now, yet their current squad is just a who's who of "who?".

Euro 2004:

Spoiler

Now:

Spoiler

 

[2 man midfield]

Most of eastern Europe seems to suffer from this, but I can't think of another side who fell off such a cliff so fast. Feels like yesterday they were about the equivalent of what Belgium are now, yet their current squad is just a who's who of "who?".

Euro 2004:

Spoiler

Now:

Spoiler

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

Well for Russia the football infrastructure (which was never up to most western standards) and systems fell apart after the breakup. Football has never been a priority for the government since. Bidding for the 2018 world cup was more of a vanity project than part of a well organised plan to redevelop the sport. Also while football is the most popular sport overall, it's never been a religion like England, Spain, Italy, Germany or the South Americans and though it's not something i ever looked into for actual stats, i'd strongly guess participation levels side of things took a big hit throughout the 90s and into 00s.

imo you can basically split the 3 decades into something like this

90s...Football the last thing on mind for most people. What would have been the ussr '90s generation was potentially very good, especially in midfield, but most failed to adapt well to moving abroad and it became a generation of low professionalism and wasted talent.

00s..money comes back in, but mostly goes towards short term goals like strengthening squads with decent foreign players. Good wages means much less players moving to better leagues by second half of the decade.

10s... Production of players has ground to a snail pace by start of the decade as poor football setup in most of the country becomes more and more apparent. shit foreign player restrictions imo also not helping at all with player development. Very poor generation that ends in expectations of getting humiliated at home World Cup.

Similar story for Ukraine and obviously the political situation of the last years has set any chance for development there back massively.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Hungary - very strong football nation in the 50s and 60s with legendary players like Puskas leading the team, then become poor in 70s and 80s, and very shite ever since the 90s.

 

[Fortitude]

Hungary is the one I think of most in relation to threads like this. They had a constant stream of just superb all-round attackers: dribbling, passing, work-rate, movement, intelligence, technique and then it all just stopped. So much so, if you didn't know about the Magyars etc. you would look at Hungary as a non-entity nation as far as football is concerned. Think about that: from almost the best international side of literal all-time, had they won the '54 World Cup, to a non-entity within 30 years! Just insane.

As for the topic as a whole. You can blame mega clubs and squads and the scouring of academies and poorer leagues for what we see now. Players used to grow in their home nations, develop as units and establish themselves as indviduals in times gone by. Now? 15, going on 16, and you're on the radar of every top club in the world and will be snatched the very moment it's possible, by fair means or foul (paying the tribunal pittance) and the nation and club these talents were plucked from are left with giant-sized craters in their overall infrastructure and no real money to pump back into development.

Let me cite an example in Van Basten, Gullit and Rijkaard. In the time they came to light, top clubs waited until they had a solid CV behind them, with: Gullit being 25; Rijkaard being 25 and Van Basten being 23. Now? Rijkaard wouldn't come through a dutch academy proper; Van Basten would've left by 18 and Gullit would be a starter by 18 at a major club outside of Holland. If you look at the ages all of them left Holland, it gives an idea of how much better the Eredivisie would be for it - this was commonplace for the era, but these three are the easiest and most extreme examples to cite as they were prodigies well before 18.

The cat is out of the bag now, however, and you're more looking at serendipituous happenstance (such as with Haaland and Odegaard, or the Belgian golden generation) over building blocks and the developmental processes of yore.

It's actually easier to ask which nations haven't been ravished in this way over asking about those who have.

 

[Lay]

Czech Rep. Good European history, were a force when I was growing up. Finals and semi finals in the euros.

Would Turkey be another? Usually would have a few Turkish players doing well in England

 

[RUCK4444]

yeah 1st country that sprung to my mind..

Robbie Keane
Roy Keane
Damien Duff
Liam Brady
Denis Irwin



Literally no players of note these days from Ireland playing at a high level

That’s a pretty poor return anyway though isn’t it? Considering you could throw a blanket on them almost all being in one era/generation.

Never paid a great deal of attention to international footie when I was a kid (being from Wales it was too painful.). So I’m not sure what Ireland were like in major comps.

 

[kirk buttercup]

yeah 1st country that sprung to my mind..

Robbie Keane
Roy Keane
Damien Duff
Liam Brady
Denis Irwin



Literally no players of note these days from Ireland playing at a high level

John Giles & Paul McGrath weren't bad either.

 

[Rozay]

Hungary is the one I think of most in relation to threads like this. They had a constant stream of just superb all-round attackers: dribbling, passing, work-rate, movement, intelligence, technique and then it all just stopped. So much so, if you didn't know about the Magyars etc. you would look at Hungary as a non-entity nation as far as football is concerned. Think about that: from almost the best international side of literal all-time, had they won the '54 World Cup, to a non-entity within 30 years! Just insane.

As for the topic as a whole. You can blame mega clubs and squads and the scouring of academies and poorer leagues for what we see now. Players used to grow in their home nations, develop as units and establish themselves as indviduals in times gone by. Now? 15, going on 16, and you're on the radar of every top club in the world and will be snatched the very moment it's possible, by fair means or foul (paying the tribunal pittance) and the nation and club these talents were plucked from are left with giant-sized craters in their overall infrastructure and no real money to pump back into development.

Let me cite an example in Van Basten, Gullit and Rijkaard. In the time they came to light, top clubs waited until they had a solid CV behind them, with: Gullit being 25; Rijkaard being 25 and Van Basten being 23. Now? Rijkaard wouldn't come through a dutch academy proper; Van Basten would've left by 18 and Gullit would be a starter by 18 at a major club outside of Holland. If you look at the ages all of them left Holland, it gives an idea of how much better the Eredivisie would be for it - this was commonplace for the era, but these three are the easiest and most extreme examples to cite as they were prodigies well before 18.

The cat is out of the bag now, however, and you're more looking at serendipituous happenstance (such as with Haaland and Odegaard, or the Belgian golden generation) over building blocks and the developmental processes of yore.

It's actually easier to ask which nations haven't been ravished in this way over asking about those who have.

You make a very good point about the Dutch. It could potentially be countered with Brazil though, who also lose all of their young talent but just keep producing more.

I think you are right in terms of the journey young players take though. Not just the Dutch, but players did stay put for longer in yesteryear. Brazil won the World Cup in 1994 with most of their squad still playing in Brazil I’m sure. That would never happen today.

I think different nations take different approaches. Someone above made a good point about England between Rooney and Kane producing little. That said, it was around the time where they went back to the drawing board. We kept hearing the buzzword of ‘grassroots football’ at the time, but fast forward 15 years - the Tao is overflowing, and there is more coming behind for years. Germany did something similar culminating in their last WC win in 2014, and Spain had to go right back to the roots before they reversed their fortunes.

 

[Gopher Brown]

For as long as I remember, some countries always produce footballing talent. Different reasons behind it, some have great infrastructure, others are just football mad nations and seemingly born with it.

Brazil have always had a player amongst the best in the world. England have always at the very least had a few young players that are hoped will become amongst the world’s best. Argentina too.

When I was younger though, there was always at least one really good Bulgarian player. Romania had good players. They haven’t produced a player in years. When was the last time Serbia really produced world class technicians? In previous generations, there were always a few. Even the Netherlands went through about a decade of not much coming through recently. I know these things come in spells, but Brazil and England have never stopped producing players. The Germans similarly.

What is the reason for previously front-running countries seeing such declines in quality, while others have remained consistent? Russia have nothing near what they used to have, and haven’t for ages. They are a big country with huge resources. They have just stopped producing players.

Serbia has only been a country since 2006. Who are these technicians you talk of?

Stankovic and Mijatovic are the only ones that spring to mind as meeting that description

 

[Rozay]

Serbia has only been a country since 2006. Who are these technicians you talk of?

Stankovic and Mijatovic are the only ones that spring to mind as meeting that description

And before that were they not Yugoslavia?

 

[Fortitude]

You make a very good point about the Dutch. It could potentially be countered with Brazil though, who also lose all of their young talent but just keep producing more.

I think you are right in terms of the journey young players take though. Not just the Dutch, but players did stay put for longer in yesteryear. Brazil won the World Cup in 1994 with most of their squad still playing in Brazil I’m sure. That would never happen today.

I think different nations take different approaches. Someone above made a good point about England between Rooney and Kane producing little. That said, it was around the time where they went back to the drawing board. We kept hearing the buzzword of ‘grassroots football’ at the time, but fast forward 15 years - the Tao is overflowing, and there is more coming behind for years. Germany did something similar culminating in their last WC win in 2014, and Spain had to go right back to the roots before they reversed their fortunes.

Brazil's production has slowed to a crawl relative to their size and illustrious history of producing world class talent. I wouldn't say the adjusted ratio between they and the Dutch would be 1 for 1, but for both nations we're seeing a dearth compared to their renown - buying a Brazilian i times gone by was a halfway rite of passage to say this guy should have a lot going for him. Now? It's truly a roll of the dice with numerous outcomes, that are more likely to be 'oh dear' over 'another sure thing.' The same goes for the Dutch. In times gone by, a player coming through the Dutch system was a hallmark of intelligence, technique and tactical understanding - someone told you it was a Dutch lad, and you'd have some preset notions of what to expect. I don't think that's been applicable outside of the last Ajax side that is being sold off systematically.

To your point, big nations will get it right, in cycles, 'golden' this and that abound, but it's the nations where talent gets taken as soon as it emerges where we have seen a steep decline in the production lines and no real hope of it being turned around outside of fluke. Brazil; Argentina; Scotland; Holland; Eastern Europe (there used to be a stream of gems that are now a trickle) all decimated, relative to what they once were.

 

[Rozay]

Brazil's production has slowed to a crawl relative to their size and illustrious history of producing world class talent. I wouldn't say the adjusted ratio between they and the Dutch would be 1 for 1, but for both nations we're seeing a dearth compared to their renown - buying a Brazilian i times gone by was a halfway rite of passage to say this guy should have a lot going for him. Now? It's truly a roll of the dice with numerous outcomes, that are more likely to be 'oh dear' over 'another sure thing.' The same goes for the Dutch. In times gone by, a player coming through the Dutch system was a hallmark of intelligence, technique and tactical understanding - someone told you it was a Dutch lad, and you'd have some preset notions of what to expect. I don't think that's been applicable outside of the last Ajax side that is being sold off systematically.

To your point, big nations will get it right, in cycles, 'golden' this and that abound, but it's the nations where talent gets taken as soon as it emerges where we have seen a steep decline in the production lines and no real hope of it being turned around outside of fluke. Brazil; Argentina; Scotland; Holland; Eastern Europe (there used to be a stream of gems that are now a trickle) all decimated, relative to what they once were.

I think that’s unfair on the Brazilians. I mean, they haven’t produced a ‘Greatest of All Time’ for a minute, but since their win in 94’ up until today they have consistently had players amongst the best in the world.

In the early 00s they had R9, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Cafu, Lucio and others and that generation was followed by Kaka who won a Balon’Dor, and the likes of Robinho and slightly later, Marcelo and Alves. The current side has the likes of Neymar (one of the world’s best), but also Coutinho, Firmino, Thiago Silva (considered the best centre half in the world in his prime) and then many good players like Arthur, Fred etc. Their goalie is also considered the best in the world. And coming behind them they again have some of the world’s leading talent in Vinicius Jr, Rodrygo, Reiner Jr.

Perhaps the overall level of player has dropped, but they are still well represented amongst the top players in the world in various positions, right up to having one of the very best forwards.

The Dutch are a different story. Before this recent Ajax lot, they had fallen massively. If you look at a Dutch starting XI from early 00s, it would predominantly be made up of Barcelona, United, Arsenal, Bayern etc with some Ajax. I think Liverpool, Barcelona, Juve, United, Real, Chelsea probably have no more than 4 Dutch internationals between them today.