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2021-22 Performances


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Red Shorts

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RASH SENTIMENT
Marcus Rashford adamant Man Utd have to win title or they’ll be FAILURES

Rashford said: “It is going to be a good feeling if we manage to win the league — but if we finish second or third, then it’s not going to be a good season for us.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...rd-man-utd-premier-league-title-failures/amp/

:lol:
Almost exactly a year later, I'm sure it will be "anything less than 4th place is a failure" :lol: .expectations dropping significantly.
 

troylocker

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Don’t assume why I am saying what I am saying. We have played like shit before Ronaldo came except for the Leeds game which has been our easiest fixtures in past season due to the way they approach the game. We have played alright with him and terrible with him. Same goes for without him leaning more towards the terrible.

Bruno is suddenly shit and found out? Rashford is a pub player? Cavani is this bad? Greenwood’s decision making is shit? Martial is a non-entity? Of course not and the same is true for Ronaldo, no more or less than anyone else. If you think these are all bad players there’s nothing to discuss.
I'd like to see you back up this claim with some solid analysis and/numbers, because I've dug pretty deep into this and found the exact opposite. Every team parameter, I repeat: Every team parameter is worse with him than without him. Doesn't matter if you compare the numbers to last season or matches/minutes this season. It all says the same.

You can of course deny it, and say that this is not what you see when you watch our games with your own eyes. It is what it is.

I don't think any of the other players you mention are bad players, despite all having bad seasons so far and me thinking Martial could do with a total mentality and body language makeover.
 

Sviken

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Just give him the armband. I don't care how pissed that donkey Maguire would be. We need a true leader on the pitch
 

troylocker

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Almost exactly a year later, I'm sure it will be "anything less than 4th place is a failure" :lol: .expectations dropping significantly.
Has he said that, or are you making it up?

While Ronaldo gets praised for saying we should always be top 3 after a season we finished 2nd. I get you!
 

SportingCP96

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Well we lost against the mighty Wolves with Ronaldo just last week. :lol: :lol:

My point was people are acting like Ronaldo is saving us and we'd be even lower without Ronaldo, that's not true at all.
I guess we won’t know but what we do know is United would be 4th place in the CL without him.
 

Red Shorts

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Has he said that, or are you making it up?

While Ronaldo gets praised for saying we should always be top 3 after a season we finished 2nd. I get you!
I made it up, hence "I'm sure it will be". I'm taking the mick out of all our players and their public communications here, not solely at Rashford.

Think you need to relax a little ..
 

troylocker

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I guess we won’t know but what we do know is United would be 4th place in the CL without him.
Have I missed something? Did we play the same matches without him and ended up last in the group?
Wow! So it is a fact that we know what we actually can't possibly know?
 

the_cliff

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Trying to suggest he cost us the game vs Chelsea when he came on is an interesting take given we were camped in our own half for 89 minutes with or without him and it wasn't him that gave away the penalty.
I'm not blaming him for the Chelsea draw or the Everton draw.

I'm just stating facts, the facts that we're not that good without him and we're not that good with him either. All of those people saying he's our best player and we're letting him down etc. are talking none sense.

In fact as @troylocker mentioned we seem to be doing worse with him. If you compare both games against Wolves for example, we were bad against them in the beginning of the season but nowhere near as bad as last week and the game was at OT.
 

SportingCP96

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On one side his mentality is so great that he doesn't eat dessert - on the other side his mentality produces the lowest defensive ability of the whole team :lol:

Hopefully it's the training and diet that rubs up on the younger players and not being in the lowest 1% defensively of the whole league ;)
He is so much better then every single player on this United team that it’s not even remotely close.

United have many problems to solve but he is the very least of them.

I don’t remember the last time Ronaldo had a good coach or properly functioning club.

In that sense he sure did make his own grave I’ll admit.
 

SportingCP96

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Have I missed something? Did we play the same matches without him and ended up last in the group?
Wow! So it is a fact that we know what we actually can't possibly know?
Considering he scored the winning or tying goal in almost every game and 3 of them late in the game….yes we do know actually.

He is the main reason United are playing another CL game this season.
 

troylocker

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I made it up, hence "I'm sure it will be". I'm taking the mick out of all our players and their public communications here, not solely at Rashford.

Think you need to relax a little ..
Why make things up to fit false narratives?
 

justsomebloke

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I'd like to see you back up this claim with some solid analysis and/numbers, because I've dug pretty deep into this and found the exact opposite. Every team parameter, I repeat: Every team parameter is worse with him than without him. Doesn't matter if you compare the numbers to last season or matches/minutes this season. It all says the same.

You can of course deny it, and say that this is not what you see when you watch our games with your own eyes. It is what it is.

I don't think any of the other players you mention are bad players, despite all having bad seasons so far and me thinking Martial could do with a total mentality and body language makeover.
Would you be prepared to post your findings? Sounds interesting.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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Has he said that, or are you making it up?

While Ronaldo gets praised for saying we should always be top 3 after a season we finished 2nd. I get you!
Yeah I had to laugh at that. Why would we be targeting 3rd spot after finishing second last year? :lol:
 

Nordmore

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MrEleson

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Yeah I had to laugh at that. Why would we be targeting 3rd spot after finishing second last year? :lol:
Clearly you misunderstood his quote. He said wants to WIN but for a club of Man Utd’s stature, we should be finishing 3rd at the very minimum.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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Clearly you misunderstood his quote. He said wants to WIN but for a club of Man Utd’s stature, we should be finishing 3rd at the very minimum.
No. We should be top 2 at a minimum. And we were that before we regressed when he joined. Better pick up his play. United's expectations are a lot higher than 3rd place.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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MrEleson

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No. We should be top 2 at a minimum. And we were that before we regressed when he joined. Better pick up his play. United's expectations are a lot higher than 3rd place.
Better pick up his play? Yeah sure but he’s still been our most productive player this season. The way you worded that is hilariously making it sound like others have been good instead of the reality that he’s been saving our asses with his goals this season:lol:
 

troylocker

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He is so much better then every single player on this United team that it’s not even remotely close.

United have many problems to solve but he is the very least of them.

I don’t remember the last time Ronaldo had a good coach or properly functioning club.

In that sense he sure did make his own grave I’ll admit.
Considering he scored the winning or tying goal in almost every game and 3 of them late in the game….yes we do know actually.

He is the main reason United are playing another CL game this season.
You would obviously jump off a cliff defending Ronaldo, so I expect you to be biased in this thread.

Your logic regarding how the world works, with and without different factors involved though, is baffling.
Sure: Those matches would have played identically without him, just without his goals.

He deserves credit for the important goals he scored in those CL matches and the mentality he showed at the end of those matches, but I say it again: It is impossible to know how those matches would have panned out without him.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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Better pick up his play? Yeah sure but he’s still been our most productive player this season. The way you worded that is hilariously making it sound like others have been good instead of the reality that he’s been saving our asses with his goals this season:lol:
The fact that we play better with him than without him disagree with you. Try again.
 

justsomebloke

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Yeah I had to laugh at that. Why would we be targeting 3rd spot after finishing second last year? :lol:
Because reality knocks, and informs us we're currently 7th, 11 points behind Chelsea in 3rd?

It would be a huge achievement to get into the top 3 this year, as things stand. It's going to be a real big challenge to get 4th, for that matter. What would you like them to do, take leave of their senses and insist we have to aim to win the league?

We could of course just conclude the season' already done for and is shit regardless of whether we finish third or fifth or ninth, but that hardly seems the right way to go.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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The fact that we wouldn't be in the CL knockouts would disagree with you. Now go back to the Messi thread.
That's conjecture. Meanwhile, the only facts are that were too 2 without him last season and have regressed with him.

Still crying about LM7? There's a thread for you to do that there. Nobody brought him up.
 

mu4c_20le

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That's conjecture. Meanwhile, the only facts are that were too 2 without him last season and have regressed with him.

Still crying about LM7? There's a thread for you to do that there. Nobody brought him up.
That's not a fact, that's made up bullshit from you just like twisting his words into saying we should be targeting 3rd when he said nothing of the sort. Obviously you are just here to WUM so off you go.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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That's not a fact, that's made up bullshit from you just like twisting his words into saying we should be targeting 3rd when he said nothing of the sort. Obviously you are just here to WUM so off you go.
Resorting to insults when confronted with facts seems to be your thing. If you weren't watching football last year, you could just Google the EPL table and see that United were indeed 2nd place last season without your hero.
 
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Gehrman

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That's conjecture. Meanwhile, the only facts are that were too 2 without him last season and have regressed with him.

Still crying about LM7? There's a thread for you to do that there. Nobody brought him up.
Its impossible to say what where would have been without ronnie this season. Football isnt static.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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Its impossible to say what where would have been without ronnie this season. Football isnt static.
Tell that to the fanboys who say we wouldn't be in the knockout stages without him. As you said, it isn't static. And we play differently with him than without him.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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He is so much better then every single player on this United team that it’s not even remotely close.

United have many problems to solve but he is the very least of them.

I don’t remember the last time Ronaldo had a good coach or properly functioning club
.

In that sense he sure did make his own grave I’ll admit.
It's always someone else's problem and never him :D
 

spiriticon

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MrEleson

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The fact that we play better with him than without him disagree with you. Try again.
Not really true. We’ve been poor without him this season too. Also, he might be the first player in the history of the sport to make an entire footballing institution turn to shit just by his mere presence on the pitch.
 

Ladron de redcafe

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Okay, thanks. That's 156 pages though, would you possibly have a link?
Not sure whether he was referring to this post, but that's what came to mind.

Sorry, all, this will be a long post.
I'll explain how Ronaldo is the biggest problem we have and how he no longer is what he used to be.

I'll start with the simple stuff: How is he doing as a striker when we have the ball compared to average strikers in the PL.

- Does he get enough service/is he good at finding himself in good scoring positions to finish off chances?

Ronaldo has the 3rd highest npxG90 in the League with 0,58 npxG90 (non penalty expected goals per 90 minutes. Calculated from every chance a player has had during this season and how many goals an average finisher in the top 5 leagues is expected score from those chance using different matrix), only beaten by Salah (0,75) and Jota (0,67), in the PL. In other words Ronaldo seems to get both good service and still be good at making himself available for service. Not like in the good old days, and his npxG90 has had a negative trend since his golden years at Real Madrid, but still good. Since 2014 his npxG90 has varied from 0,6-0,94 at Real Madrid and Juventus.

Let's compare his output with some random strikers in the PL (all the numbers given are per 90 minutes on the pitch):

Non penalty goals and full 90s played/Shots per 90/Shots on target per 90/nxpG90/non-penalty goals per 90/diff (goal - npgX90)

Ronaldo: 6 non penalty goals in 14,8 full 90s / 3,80 (56 shots)/1,29 (19 shots on target) /0,58 (npxG90) /0,41 (np Goals90)/ -0,17 (Underperforming his npxG90 by 29,3%)
Antonio: 8 non penalty goals in 18,4 full 90s / 2,93 (54 shots)/0,92 (17 shots on target)/0,44 (npxG90)/0,43 (np Goals90)/ -0,01 (Underperforming his npxG90 by 2,3%)
Dennis: 8 non penalty goals in 14,5 full 90s / 2,42 (35 shots)/1,38 (20 shots on target)/0,24 (npxG90)/0,55 (np Goals90)/ +0,31 (Overperforming his npxG90 by 129,2%)
Maupay: 6 non penalty goals in 14,3 full 90s / 2,24 (32 shots)/0,92 (9 shots on target)/0,36 (npxG90)/0,42 (np Goals90)/ +0,06 (Overperforming his npxG90 by 16,7%)
Watkins: 5 non penalty goals in 15,1 full 90s / 2,31 (35 shots)/1,06 (16 shots on target)/0,38 (npxG90)/0,33 (np Goals90)/ -0,05 (Underperforming his npxG90 by 15,1%)
+ dream target from Bundesliga:
Haaland: 10 non penalty goals in 10,0 full 90s / 4,10 (41 shots)/1,80 (18 shots on target)/0,65 (npxG90)/1,0 (np Goals90)/ +0,35 (Overperforming his npxG90 by 53,8%)

Ronaldo has the 2nd most finishes per 90 in the league (beaten only by Salah), the 3rd highest npxG90 and still sits on just 6 non penalty goals (shared 10th with 5 other players in the league). He is getting 2nd most service in the league, to claim anything else is just a lie. He has hit a couple of brilliant goals this season, but he misses more chances than most in the league.

Assists and setting up teammates inside the box:
PPA90 (completed passes into the penalty box excluding set pieces per 90)Assists/xA90/A per 90

Ronaldo: 0,41 completed passes into the penalty box per 90/3 assists/0,11xA90/0,20 assists per 90.
Antonio: 0,92 completed passes into the penalty box per 90/5 assists/0,24xA90/0,27 assists per 90.
Dennis: 0,62 completed passes into the penalty box per 90/5 assists/0,17xA90/0,34 assists per 90.
Maupay: 0,77 completed passes into the penalty box per 90/1 assists/0,11xA90/0,07 assists per 90.
Watkins: 0,66 completed passes into the penalty box per 90/1 assists/0,06xA90/0,07 assists per 90.
+ dream target from Bundesliga:
Haaland: 1,3 completed passes into the penalty box per 90/5 assists/0,31xA90/0,50 assists per 90.

Dispite a couple of brilliant headers to teammates he rarely looks for teammates when closing in on goal, compared to other forwards. Ronaldo and Dennis' teammates have made them look better than they are at creating chances by massively overachieving their chances from passes from them. His link up play simply hasn't been very impressive for us.
Bruno for instance has been let down by bad finishing from his teammates this season (0,28xA90 /0,18 assists per 90)

Now to the most depressing part: Pressing

Pressings per 90/successfull pressings per 90/pressings in the attacking 3rd

Ronaldo: 6,28 pressings per 90 / 1,69 successfull pressing per 90/ 2,84 pressings in the attacking 3rd per 90 (!!)
Antonio: 13,3 pressings per 90 / 3,97 successfull pressing per 90/ 7,01 pressings in the attacking 3rd per 90
Dennis: 20,8 pressings per 90 / 4,76 successfull pressing per 90/ 7,31 pressings in the attacking 3rd per 90
Maupay: 19,9 pressings per 90 / 5,73 successfull pressing per 90/ 10,49 pressings in the attacking 3rd per 90
Watkins: 15,43 pressings per 90 / 4,17 successfull pressing per 90/ 7,48 pressings in the attacking 3rd per 90
+ dream target from Bundesliga:
Haaland: 12,6 pressings per 90 / 3,6 successfull pressing per 90/ 8,5 pressings in the attacking 3rd per 90

His pressing is historically bad, that is why it is an issue and why we talk about it. If he just did the minimum, maybe the story would be different, but he doesn't even do half of the minimum in the attacking third. When we lose the ball he moans and throws his arms up in the air instead of chasing the ball. Most chances in football are created when you catch the opponent when it is unorganized, and the closer you get to the opponents goal when you gain possession the more unorganized the opponent is. The same goes for the faster you gain possession after you lose it the more unorganized the opponents are. Now look at the numbers above and explain to me how his workrate when we lose the ball or when we in general do not have the ball doesn't affect our general play and chance creationrate.

Playing a striker like him means the following:
- We win the ball when the opponent is unorganized less often
- We play against organized defenses more often
- We let our opponents enter our half with the ball more often
- All our outfield player except Ronaldo gets a higher workload and must cover larger areas to cover for him, which leads to more room for our opponents and our players getting more pumped and plays worse football.

....and when, as showed above, he doesn't even add more goals or isn't more effective than an average PL striker.
What's the point!?
Because reality knocks, and informs us we're currently 7th, 11 points behind Chelsea in 3rd?

It would be a huge achievement to get into the top 3 this year, as things stand. It's going to be a real big challenge to get 4th, for that matter. What would you like them to do, take leave of their senses and insist we have to aim to win the league?

We could of course just conclude the season' already done for and is shit regardless of whether we finish third or fifth or ninth, but that hardly seems the right way to go.
Yeah but that's essentially admitted that we have lowered our expected due to our struggles. If we were to be consistent using that logic, we could start next season losing 11 in a row before targeting a top 11 finish, calling it a big achievement. Each team starts level on points. Rebounding strongly after a poor start to finish in 4th instead of 7th isn't something that I would look back at as an achievement.
 

Gehrman

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Tell that to the fanboys who say we wouldn't be in the knockout stages without him. As you said, it isn't static. And we play differently with him than without him.
TBH I have no idea, it's all conjecture. I can only jugde him by his own performances I think he's a bit of a conundrum. If our forwards would step up, I would drop him more often, but none of them have stood out this season.
 

Berbasbullet

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Wait, people are unhappy with that interview? Honestly don’t understand most of you.
 
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