Cristiano Ronaldo - 968/1000

[Fobal]

I feel like you are streching a bit. He was great in 2018 World Cup and if they didn't lose it in the round of 16, he would be in the team of the year. In 2006, he was pretty close to be included as well.

For example, Gareth Bale wasn't even in the team of tournament in the Euro 2016 despite being brilliant. Ronaldo scored 5 goals in the 2020 Euro but wasn't included in the team of the years as well.

A lot of people in England don't even care about international football. They put their clubs over their nations. But in other countries it's vice versa. It all depends on all different countries. For me club football is more important than international football. But that doesn't mean that international football is worthless.


No it's not, otherwise Miroslav Klose and James Rodriguez would be among the GOATs then.

Nope, every traditional country cares a lot about International football even if Club football is huge, if you think that in Brazil or Argentina Club fans are less pasionate or do not protest every time they loose a player for the NT, or even lots of them put River, Boca or whomever above the NT you are absolutely wrong.

What happens it's that if frustration comes time and again, at some point you don't want to get frustrated. In Engalnd, Spain, Brazil, Italy, Argentina etc...Club fans are extreme as fvck, it just happens that once the ball in a WC starts to roll, everything it's left aside and at times even irrational hope arrives and extreme frustration and rage too.

And there is no need to go to the other extreme, it's precisly the romanticism, the extreme need of timing every 4 years what makes WCs so special and so desired by the huge majority of players and fans, another matter it's if it's an entirely rational scenario to judge the real level of players or have an extreme view. International football it's great because it still resonates in people with a more amateur approach than even club football, even it's not entirely real, not even fair, it just has it.

 

[AdNani]

Not seen the interview and not going to either, anything with Piers Morgan is absolutely unwatchable.

for someone who wants everyone to love him it's a strange polarizing choice of Interviewer.

 

[Joel Miller]

Here we go again expecting from a wide forward/winger to dictate or control the game. Anyway, the great example of Ronaldo playing well without the great G/A was 2006 where he was pretty impressive. He made the most dribbles in that World Cup and was Portugal's best player against Zidane's France in the semis.

And he had plenty of iconic performances for Portugal. And yes, those performances against Netherlands and Czech Republic were iconic, especially against Netherlands given that they were an active World Cup runner up at that time. If you take into consideration how his team was average and barely lost to prime Spain, it makes it even more impressive. You also had hattrick against Spain in 2018 and his performance against Hungary in 2016 Euro was definitely iconic as well. 2 goals, one of them being a ridiculous back heel goal plus an additional assist.

2014 WC qualification where he single handedly dragged Portugal to the World cup against Sweden.

Fair enough, but I said that he (the original poster) should've have been mad at the players who joined City and not the player who "almost" did. All of thosr players players are now pundits and have pretty strong opinions on Utd (bar Tevez) while Ronaldo generally very rarely comments on Utd these days.

Well, it was you who tried to strawman me the whole time and act in the bad faith. Let's leave it just at that, no point at "arguing" with you anymore.

No one’s expecting a wide player to dictate games, I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here. The point is he doesn’t have the quality needed to do it, that’s why he’s ended up as an out and out centre forward and the other player you like to bring up has dropped into a deeper role as a playmaker. Although funnily enough that other player also started as a winger/wide forward, imagine that!

We’re going around and around with some of this though. Clearly you’re still adamant his team was average. And we’re giving him iconic performances against Holland (a group stage game, and it’s not like it was a must win to avoid going out) and the Czechs that realistically not many outside of his most extreme fanbase will remember because although he scored crucial goals, they weren’t peak performances for the ages. Similar to the way Eder scored the biggest and most important goal in Portuguese footballing history, but people won’t look back and talk about that as the iconic Eder show.

And sorry but I’m not having a play off game vs Sweden as an “iconic” international performance mate, you’re obsessing over the quality of Portugal’s side but giving me a play off game against a side composed of players from Norwich, West Brom, Celtic, Malmo, Sunderland and Spartak Moscow as one of the truly iconic performances? At least be more consistent here. You can’t deride Ronaldo’s side and then at the same time laud him for scoring versus a team with significantly less quality. It was a brilliant performance by the way, clinical even, but I don’t see people talking about that in 20 years time the way they talk about Zidane vs Brazil in 2006.

Nor am I having Hungary with whom they only had to conquer because they’d slipped up in the previous games with your main man being one of the biggest culprits. It was a group stage game against a relatively poor outfit with a 40 year old goalkeeper. I’ll bet you couldn’t name even one player from Hungary’s squad without googling (again I’m only flagging this up because you’re still persisting with the idea that he’s always playing with jobbers).

And yes, of course his team was bang average, that’s why they went 120 minutes against Spain without conceding, in one sentence you’ve contradicted yourself because average sides generally didn’t stop Spain scoring in 90 let alone 120 minutes. The poor guy was slumming it with jobbers like Rui Patricio, Pepe, Nani, Joao Perreira, Coentrao, Meireles, Mourinho and Alves (who whether you want to admit it or not, formed a solid side that also only lost by a single goal to Germany). And we’ll continue to gloss over the bit where Ronaldo never even got to take a penalty because instead of leading from the front, he decided to hold back for personal glory and the chance to whip his shirt off for the cameras. Something he was roundly (and rightly) criticised for at the time. Sorry friend but I don’t see any real objectivity!

 

[KingEric04]

Nope, every traditional country cares a lot about International football even if Club football is huge, if you think that in Brazil or Argentina Club fans are less pasionate or do not protest every time they loose a player for the NT, or even lots of them put River, Boca or whomever above the NT you are absolutely wrong.

What happens it's that if frustration comes time and again, at some point you don't want to get frustrated. In Engalnd, Spain, Brazil, Italy, Argentina etc...Club fans are extreme as fvck, it just happens that once the ball in a WC starts to roll, everything it's left aside and at times even irrational hope arrives and extreme frustration and rage too.

And there is no need to go to the other extreme, it's precisly the romanticism, the extreme need of timing every 4 years what makes WCs so special and so desired by the huge majority of players and fans, another matter it's if it's an entirely rational scenario to judge the real level of players or have an extreme view. International football it's great because it still resonates in people with a more amateur approach than even club football, even it's not entirely real, not even fair, it just has it.

I'm pretty confident that the fans in England care more about their clubs than country. There was a study about this and I know it showed this, a couple of polls as well. Now that doesn't mean rhat they don't care about their NT (they do) but they would rather their team win the UCL or the Premier League than for England to win the World Cup.

I have no idea about our countries, so I won't comment on it. In my own country, the clubs are also more important than the national team. At least that's the general sentiment that I got.

 

[Kwabs]

I feel like you are streching a bit. He was great in 2018 World Cup and if they didn't lose it in the round of 16, he would be in the team of the year. In 2006, he was pretty close to be included as well.

For example, Gareth Bale wasn't even in the team of tournament in the Euro 2016 despite being brilliant. Ronaldo scored 5 goals in the 2020 Euro but wasn't included in the team of the years as well.

A lot of people in England don't even care about international football. They put their clubs over their nations. But in other countries it's vice versa. It all depends on all different countries. For me club football is more important than international football. But that doesn't mean that international football is worthless.


No it's not, otherwise Miroslav Klose and James Rodriguez would be among the GOATs then.

I said you need both. But if you give any player a choice of one trophy, they would all choose the World Cup. Without exception.

 

[Kwabs]

Just because people from countries who won the wc think it is more important doesn't mean it is a better gauge or test of a players ability and qualities.

Everyone thinks it's more important. Not just people from countries that have won it.

 

[Joel Miller]

Everyone thinks it's more important. Not just people from countries that have won it.

Being honest I’ve never been keen on internatonal success being the primary barometer of success either, but it’s obviously still very significant, especially the World Cup because of the prestige, and also the great pressure that comes with it if you play for an expectant nation; it only happens every 4 years so chances to win it are scarce. But I do have to say I remember in 2016 international silverware became the be all and end all for a certain cult following. Unsurprisingly the goalposts have since been moved and narrative rewritten as someone else went onto greater heights.

 

[KingEric04]

No one’s expecting a wide player to dictate games, I think you’re being deliberately obtuse here. The point is he doesn’t have the quality needed to do it, that’s why he’s ended up as an out and out centre forward and the other player you like to bring up has dropped into a deeper role as a playmaker. Although funnily enough that other player also started as a winger/wide forward, imagine that!

We’re going around and around with some of this though. Clearly you’re still adamant his team was average. And we’re giving him iconic performances against Holland (a group stage game, and it’s not like it was a must win to avoid going out) and the Czechs that realistically not many outside of his most extreme fanbase will remember because although he scored crucial goals, they weren’t peak performances for the ages. Similar to the way Eder scored the biggest and most important goal in Portuguese footballing history, but people won’t look back and talk about that as the iconic Eder show.

And sorry but I’m not having a play off game vs Sweden as an “iconic” international performance mate, you’re obsessing over the quality of Portugal’s side but giving me a play off game against a side composed of players from Norwich, West Brom, Celtic, Malmo, Sunderland and Spartak Moscow as one of the truly iconic performances? At least be more consistent here. You can’t deride Ronaldo’s side and then at the same time laud him for scoring versus a team with significantly less quality. It was a brilliant performance by the way, clinical even, but I don’t see people talking about that in 20 years time the way they talk about Zidane vs Brazil in 2006.

Nor am I having Hungary with whom they only had to conquer because they’d slipped up in the previous games with your main man being one of the biggest culprits. It was a group stage game against a relatively poor outfit with a 40 year old goalkeeper. I’ll bet you couldn’t name even one player from Hungary’s squad without googling (again I’m only flagging this up because you’re still persisting with the idea that he’s always playing with jobbers).

And yes, of course his team was bang average, that’s why they went 120 minutes against Spain without conceding, in one sentence you’ve contradicted yourself because average sides generally didn’t stop Spain scoring in 90 let alone 120 minutes. The poor guy was slumming it with jobbers like Rui Patricio, Pepe, Nani, Joao Perreira, Coenteao, Meireles, Mourinho and Alves (who whether you want to admit it or not, formed a solid side that also only lost by a single goal to Germany). And we’ll continue to gloss over the bit where Ronaldo never even got to take a penalty because instead of leading from the front, he decided to hold back for personal glory and the chance to whip his shirt off for the cameras. Something he was roundly (and rightly) criticised for at the time. Sorry friend but I don’t see any real objectivity!

None of the players you mentioned were really world class apart from Pepe and Nani. You forgot how bad and average the midfield and the attack was. Hugo Almeida, Eder, Nuno Gomes, Postiga, Quaresma, Meireles, William Carvalho, Renato Sanchez etc. They were good enough to qualify but they never good enough to truly challenge for the titles.

That Euro 2016 had 50% of players playing in Portugal, 2 of them playing in Turkey and 2 in Southampton. Now compare that to that Spain superteam of 08-12 and it's not even a comparison.

 

[Joel Miller]

None of the players you mentioned were really world class apart from Pepe and Nani. You forgot how bad and average the midfield and the attack was. Hugo Almeida, Eder, Nuno Gomes, Postiga, Quaresma, Meireles, William Carvalho, Renato Sanchez etc. They were good enough to qualify but they never good enough to truly challenge for the titles.

That Euro 2016 had 50% of players playing in Portugal, 2 of them playing in Turkey and 2 in Southampton. Now compare that to that Spain superteam of 08-12 and it's not even a comparison.

You’re tying yourself in knots a bit here. You’ve even mentioned Eder, without whom Ronaldo probably wouldn’t even have the one major international trophy he has. We have different definitions of the word iconic that’s for certain. But that 2012 side was very good, and they had Ronaldo in attack, the alleged greatest to have played the game, so how could they be weak in attack?

But going on what you’re saying Ronaldo’s goals against Netherlands and the Czechs and whomever else must have been spectacular solo efforts? They certainly couldn’t be close range finishes after receiving a pass or a cross as he’d need to be set up by his team mates who clearly aren’t anywhere near good enough for that of what you’re saying is true. The real proof of what I’m saying will be evident when he finally retires, and Portugal continue to qualify for everything and make the latter stages of competitions, and believe me they will.

In fact let’s say he retires and then Portugal go on to win the World Cup. If I were to use the same circumstantial evidence as you’ve done to suggest Ronaldo has pretty much elevated Portuguese football on his own, I could even say that they only won the big one because Ronaldo finally left, that he was clearly holding them back. Really that wouldn’t be much different from you implying that they were a nothing nation akin to Latvia or Finland pre Ronaldo, and only became a formidable side after him.

I’d be interested to get views from some Portuguese fans because I think you’re doing a massive disservice to them with some of the talent they’ve produced. I wonder if they’ll sympathise with poor Ronaldo having to go into his first major international tournament with Figo, Deco, Rui Costa, Costinha, Maniche, Pauleta, Carvalho, Costa and Ricardo for teammates.

 

[Kwabs]

I'm pretty confident that the fans in England care more about their clubs than country. There was a study about this and I know it showed this, a couple of polls as well. Now that doesn't mean rhat they don't care about their NT (they do) but they would rather their team win the UCL or the Premier League than for England to win the World Cup.

I have no idea about our countries, so I won't comment on it. In my own country, the clubs are also more important than the national team. At least that's the general sentiment that I got.

Depends on the fans and depends on the country. But the reason the World Cup is the most important is because it extends way beyond people that are die hard football fans. That's millions and millions and millions of people. Grandmothers watch it. People with little to no interest in football watch it. Americans watch it.

I listen regularly to a US sports podcast that mainly talks about the NFL, the NBA, and a bit about MLB. The only time they ever mention football is when the World Cup is on, and then they talk about football every freaking day. I've never heard them mention the Champions League or the Premier League once.

The last World Cup final had an audience of 2 billion. Against what, in the biggest club game? 500 million? It's the biggest stage by far, it always has been and it always will be.

 

[Kwabs]

Being honest I’ve never been keen on internatonal success being the primary barometer of success either, but it’s obviously still very significant, especially the World Cup because of the prestige, and also the great pressure that comes with it if you play for an expectant nation; it only happens every 4 years so chances to win it are scarce. But I do have to say I remember in 2016 international silverware became the be all and end all for a certain cult following. Unsurprisingly the goalposts have since been moved and narrative rewritten as someone else went onto greater heights.

It's a fair point. Everyone has forgotten that now, but when Portugal won the Euros in 2016, CR7 fans was like 'Ronaldo has the ultimate over his rival, success with his nation.' Fast forward to 2022 and suddenly international success doesn't matter, it's not fair to expect Portugal to win, yadda yadda. You weren't saying that 9 years ago, FFS.

I understand what you're saying, but for me, it was always important, because I grew up with Maradona Baggio, Romario, R9 and people like that, who had legendary World Cups. And even the likes of Van Basten and Platini, who starred in the Euros.

 

[Joel Miller]

Depends on the fans and depends on the country. But the reason the World Cup is the most important is because it extends way beyond people that are die hard football fans. That's millions and millions and millions of people. Grandmothers watch it. People with little to no interest in football watch it. Americans watch it.

I listen regularly to a US sports podcast that mainly talks about the NFL, the NBA, and a bit about MLB. The only time they ever mention football is when the World Cup is on, and then they talk about football every freaking day. I've never heard them mention the Champions League or the Premier League once.

The last World Cup final had an audience of 2 billion. Against what, in the biggest club game? 500 million? It's the biggest stage by far, it always has been and it always will be.

I think it just brings a feel good factor to an entire nation too. I have a couple of Argentine colleagues and their country was in quite a poor place when they won it, still is really, but the collective elation and the emotional lift a whole country got from winning a football tournament was incredible, it means an awful lot.

I think that’s what makes the World Cup truly special. And as you said, a lot of its prestige comes with its association when the games greatest names; Maradona, Pele, Beckenbauer, Zidane, Ronaldo (Brazil). Even guys like Cruyff that never won it have a special association with it because of amazing performances they were able to produce at World Cups.

 

[Wand of a right foot]

Good post but you're stretching it a bit, just like the Ronaldo fanboy before you. People thinking that there's a lot of difference to them just for fanboying out over one of them don't really have a good eye. They're very good players at what they do, but both of them need an entire team built around them, even at national level.

I have watched all Argentina's games in the last 10 years and I can't remember an iconic performance of Leo as well, just as I can't remember one of Ronnie's for Portugal. If you tell me that them scoring a goal and a penalty in an important game is "iconic" then the word has no meaning.

I really think most of Messi and CR fans are just blinded by the numbers and by the best years they had until they were 30 when both have fallen of a cliff but still somehow scored through their sheer quality.

I find it quite unbelievable that grown men are clutching at straws trying to come up with crazy arguments about who's the better player, just shows how the social media/phone generation has changed us.

You have not watched all the Argentina games

International football is more important. Anyone who has been in a country at a time when they have won the World Cup will understand this. It reaches far beyond just football fans.

Of course, this doesn't mean that club football is unimportant - you need to be great in both. CR7 has been great at club level, but not in international tournaments. And I said 'great', not 'good.'

No it isn't more important in mordern football because of much greater visibility of club football these days compared to the 90s and earlier.

International football gives a greater legacy to any player who has been great at club football. But, international football success without club football success for doesn't do much. I'll give you examples:
Cristiano is considered one of the greatest ever (maybe top 5 or top 10) despite being relatively unsuccessful in international football because of huge success in club football.
Forlan won the 2010 world cup golden boot but is nowhere near any "goat" list due to a club career that was good but not great. If this same golden boot had been won by a player like Cristiano, it would have had a different effect due to the base club success.

 

[Fortitude]

The most amusing thing about the “war” is how both sides rewrote the narrative to fit their guy until the decisive blow and separation was made. The arrogance from both to wish rewrite what is essentially a monolith in the sport, bigger than any one player or era, where the truly great ones perform on all stages presented to them with no ifs, buts or asterisks.

Before Portugal won the Euros, both sides droned on and on about major tournaments not holding a candle to club football, where the exact counter point was made that to challenge the immortals, they both had to at least perform like their club selves to earn plaudits of those who have gone before;

Puskas, Eusebio, Cruyff, Baggio amongst others were lauded and have become eternally revered for their performances in World Cups, the same would have held true for either player at that pre-major win stage. Then;

C.Ronaldo wins the Euros and that is held over the other camp for years. Suddenly, majors carried the weight they always did. Messi then wins the Copa; for the fans of him, this brings parity, but the C.Ronaldo lot state Euros are harder to win than Copa’s. There’s an impasse; the World Cup could prove decisive (once more). Come 2022 and Messi secures his legacy at the very top, minimum of par with the other 2 kings. The debate mostly dies down from here with only a few jungle dwellers still fighting “the war” like it’s 2015; suddenly, the Messi-flavoured see every auld worth of the World Cup, and strangely, that few-run of victories towards lifting the trophy mean the world. Peculiar that. Uncanny, even. If Messi somehow wins in 2026, he’ll be categorically out on his own, beyond even Pele. The stakes literally never change and are what they are, so it’ll always be fascinating to see this subject brought up by the staunch on either side, because as someone who has been pained enough to watch the whole thing unfold, you’re both as intellectually selective and dishonest as one another, like modern-day politicians.

C.Ronaldo has to tell himself what he does because he, of all the greats, has the most scrutiny on his World Cup legacy; it’d be one thing if it were only the 7 games he states, but for him it’s 22 games spread over 4 World Cups of which he’s made less note than anyone in the all-time top 10. It’s obviously the stain on his legacy and it obviously bothers him. These discussions would be very different if C.Ronaldo had have performed in accordance with his club self at varying times, that’s for sure.

Once again, this was a scrutiny reserved for both of them before the psychological event horizon occurred and shattered that angle for one set, where they could now jump on the old ways as if that had been their position all along, when there’s magnum opus amounts of posts to the contrary.

It’s also created a weird end of life to their careers. Messi has all the weight and burden lifted and is essentially on a victory tour with whatever occurs between now and retirement being a bonus, whilst C.Ronaldo seems to have a pained end to a glorious career pursuing the 1000 as his own marker in lieu of World Cup legacy; his victory lap, just collecting cash has been anything but and I should imagine chasing down those remaining goals is not at all fun. When/if he achieves it, it’ll be interesting to see how it becomes weaponised by those who seem to be trapped in a hell loop.

 

[Raul Madrid]

Everyone thinks it's more important. Not just people from countries that have won it.

That doesn't refute my point. Just because people view it as more important doesn't mean it is s better gauge or indicator of a players talent. If Messi didn't perform at international level and Ronaldo performed even better than he did i am pretty sure lots of sensible people would still view Messi as better. If they wc was the best test of ability then managers who won it would be regarded as the very best in the world, which they aren't.

 

[rimaldo]

if ronaldo or messi were that good then they’d try and win the world cup with a lesser nation, like scotland.

 

[DarkLord1984]

if ronaldo or messi were that good then they’d try and win the world cup with a lesser nation, like scotland.

If they were REALLY good, they'd win the world cup with a club team, just like Schweinsteiger was asked if he could!

 

[horsechoker]

If they were REALLY good, they'd win the world cup with a club team, just like Schweinsteiger was asked if he could!

If they were that good they wouldn't need the help of 10 men to win

 

[DarkLord1984]

If they were that good they wouldn't need the help of 10 men to win

Now we're cookin'. Ronaldo on his own versus the entire Argentinian team.

Maybe that's why Ronaldo has had so many kids. He dreams of feilding an entire team of Ronaldos.

 

[Joel Miller]

The most amusing thing about the “war” is how both sides rewrote the narrative to fit their guy until the decisive blow and separation was made. The arrogance from both to wish rewrite what is essentially a monolith in the sport, bigger than any one player or era, where the truly great ones perform on all stages presented to them with no ifs, buts or asterisks.

Before Portugal won the Euros, both sides droned on and on about major tournaments not holding a candle to club football, where the exact counter point was made that to challenge the immortals, they both had to at least perform like their club selves to earn plaudits of those who have gone before;

Puskas, Eusebio, Cruyff, Baggio amongst others were lauded and have become eternally revered for their performances in World Cups, the same would have held true for either player at that pre-major win stage. Then;

C.Ronaldo wins the Euros and that is held over the other camp for years. Suddenly, majors carried the weight they always did. Messi then wins the Copa; for the fans of him, this brings parity, but the C.Ronaldo lot state Euros are harder to win than Copa’s. There’s an impasse; the World Cup could prove decisive (once more). Come 2022 and Messi secures his legacy at the very top, minimum of par with the other 2 kings. The debate mostly dies down from here with only a few jungle dwellers still fighting “the war” like it’s 2015; suddenly, the Messi-flavoured see every auld worth of the World Cup, and strangely, that few-run of victories towards lifting the trophy mean the world. Peculiar that. Uncanny, even. If Messi somehow wins in 2026, he’ll be categorically out on his own, beyond even Pele. The stakes literally never change and are what they are, so it’ll always be fascinating to see this subject brought up by the staunch on either side, because as someone who has been pained enough to watch the whole thing unfold, you’re both as intellectually selective and dishonest as one another, like modern-day politicians.

C.Ronaldo has to tell himself what he does because he, of all the greats, has the most scrutiny on his World Cup legacy; it’d be one thing if it were only the 7 games he states, but for him it’s 22 games spread over 4 World Cups of which he’s made less note than anyone in the all-time top 10. It’s obviously the stain on his legacy and it obviously bothers him. These discussions would be very different if C.Ronaldo had have performed in accordance with his club self at varying times, that’s for sure.

Once again, this was a scrutiny reserved for both of them before the psychological event horizon occurred and shattered that angle for one set, where they could now jump on the old ways as if that had been their position all along, when there’s magnum opus amounts of posts to the contrary.

It’s also created a weird end of life to their careers. Messi has all the weight and burden lifted and is essentially on a victory tour with whatever occurs between now and retirement being a bonus, whilst C.Ronaldo seems to have a pained end to a glorious career pursuing the 1000 as his own marker in lieu of World Cup legacy; his victory lap, just collecting cash has been anything but and I should imagine chasing down those remaining goals is not at all fun. When/if he achieves it, it’ll be interesting to see how it becomes weaponised by those who seem to be trapped in a hell loop.

Hard to disagree with any of that really.

 

[Gehrman]

The most amusing thing about the “war” is how both sides rewrote the narrative to fit their guy until the decisive blow and separation was made. The arrogance from both to wish rewrite what is essentially a monolith in the sport, bigger than any one player or era, where the truly great ones perform on all stages presented to them with no ifs, buts or asterisks.

Before Portugal won the Euros, both sides droned on and on about major tournaments not holding a candle to club football, where the exact counter point was made that to challenge the immortals, they both had to at least perform like their club selves to earn plaudits of those who have gone before;

Puskas, Eusebio, Cruyff, Baggio amongst others were lauded and have become eternally revered for their performances in World Cups, the same would have held true for either player at that pre-major win stage. Then;

C.Ronaldo wins the Euros and that is held over the other camp for years. Suddenly, majors carried the weight they always did. Messi then wins the Copa; for the fans of him, this brings parity, but the C.Ronaldo lot state Euros are harder to win than Copa’s. There’s an impasse; the World Cup could prove decisive (once more). Come 2022 and Messi secures his legacy at the very top, minimum of par with the other 2 kings. The debate mostly dies down from here with only a few jungle dwellers still fighting “the war” like it’s 2015; suddenly, the Messi-flavoured see every auld worth of the World Cup, and strangely, that few-run of victories towards lifting the trophy mean the world. Peculiar that. Uncanny, even. If Messi somehow wins in 2026, he’ll be categorically out on his own, beyond even Pele. The stakes literally never change and are what they are, so it’ll always be fascinating to see this subject brought up by the staunch on either side, because as someone who has been pained enough to watch the whole thing unfold, you’re both as intellectually selective and dishonest as one another, like modern-day politicians.

C.Ronaldo has to tell himself what he does because he, of all the greats, has the most scrutiny on his World Cup legacy; it’d be one thing if it were only the 7 games he states, but for him it’s 22 games spread over 4 World Cups of which he’s made less note than anyone in the all-time top 10. It’s obviously the stain on his legacy and it obviously bothers him. These discussions would be very different if C.Ronaldo had have performed in accordance with his club self at varying times, that’s for sure.

Once again, this was a scrutiny reserved for both of them before the psychological event horizon occurred and shattered that angle for one set, where they could now jump on the old ways as if that had been their position all along, when there’s magnum opus amounts of posts to the contrary.

It’s also created a weird end of life to their careers. Messi has all the weight and burden lifted and is essentially on a victory tour with whatever occurs between now and retirement being a bonus, whilst C.Ronaldo seems to have a pained end to a glorious career pursuing the 1000 as his own marker in lieu of World Cup legacy; his victory lap, just collecting cash has been anything but and I should imagine chasing down those remaining goals is not at all fun. When/if he achieves it, it’ll be interesting to see how it becomes weaponised by those who seem to be trapped in a hell loop.

This post is too well written and thought out to belong in this discussion.

 

[Deco10Legend]

For years the argument was that Ronaldo was better because he produced for Portugal and various leagues.

Messi without Barca was nothing.
He went and won the World Cup and now that doesn’t matter anymore.

The mental gymnastics are amazing to witness.

 

[Raul Madrid]

Imo Ronaldo is an amazing, excellent player. Imo Messi is better though. If you want to compare Messi and Ronaldo then theur club career is far more relevant, I would say because things are evened out. They both played for similar level teams and play similar opposition. Portugal were defensive in 2016 and didn't suit Ronaldo or Messi. Pepe was as good as any in that at the time.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Depends on the fans and depends on the country. But the reason the World Cup is the most important is because it extends way beyond people that are die hard football fans. That's millions and millions and millions of people. Grandmothers watch it. People with little to no interest in football watch it. Americans watch it.

I listen regularly to a US sports podcast that mainly talks about the NFL, the NBA, and a bit about MLB. The only time they ever mention football is when the World Cup is on, and then they talk about football every freaking day. I've never heard them mention the Champions League or the Premier League once.

The last World Cup final had an audience of 2 billion. Against what, in the biggest club game? 500 million? It's the biggest stage by far, it always has been and it always will be.

I had a colleague when I worked in America briefly who was sports mad and talked about the World Cup all the time when it was on. When it was over he said ‘can’t wait until the next one’. I said ‘well you know there’s the Premier League, Champions League if you like that’ and he had no interest. A lot treat it like the Olympics. It’s by far the biggest event in the sport.

I think it just brings a feel good factor to an entire nation too. I have a couple of Argentine colleagues and their country was in quite a poor place when they won it, still is really, but the collective elation and the emotional lift a whole country got from winning a football tournament was incredible, it means an awful lot.

I think that’s what makes the World Cup truly special. And as you said, a lot of its prestige comes with its association when the games greatest names; Maradona, Pele, Beckenbauer, Zidane, Ronaldo (Brazil). Even guys like Cruyff that never won it have a special association with it because of amazing performances they were able to produce at World Cups.

When I was in Argentina recently, Messi was everywhere but interestingly he was recently stuck in alongside Maradona in murals and marketing, who I imagine had been there on his own for 30 years. There was a real feeling only in 2022 did Messi rise to greatness in Argentina and deserve a spot beside Diego because he did it for us. Argentina is just football-crazy and it elevated him to a place beyond even regular celebrities, that god-like status of Maradona.

 

[Andy_Cole]

I had a colleague when I worked in America briefly who was sports mad and talked about the World Cup all the time when it was on. When it was over he said ‘can’t wait until the next one’. I said ‘well you know there’s the Premier League, Champions League if you like that’ and he had no interest. A lot treat it like the Olympics. It’s by far the biggest event in the sport.


When I was in Argentina recently, Messi was everywhere but interestingly he was recently stuck in alongside Maradona in murals and marketing, who I imagine had been there on his own for 30 years. There was a real feeling only in 2022 did Messi rise to greatness in Argentina and deserve a spot beside Diego because he did it for us. Argentina is just football-crazy and it elevated him to a place beyond even regular celebrities, that god-like status of Maradona.

I guess I have an NBA interest but I don’t keep up with the season. I only switch on when it’s the playoffs.

 

[The Purley King]

I think it just brings a feel good factor to an entire nation too. I have a couple of Argentine colleagues and their country was in quite a poor place when they won it, still is really, but the collective elation and the emotional lift a whole country got from winning a football tournament was incredible, it means an awful lot.

I think that’s what makes the World Cup truly special. And as you said, a lot of its prestige comes with its association when the games greatest names; Maradona, Pele, Beckenbauer, Zidane, Ronaldo (Brazil). Even guys like Cruyff that never won it have a special association with it because of amazing performances they were able to produce at World Cups.

It definitely does give a feel good feeling to the nation. I remember reading something a few years back that general levels of crime in England drops when England make the latter stages of the World Cup or Euros.

 

[djembatheking]

Never mind Messi, there are 2 other Ronaldos better than him.

 

[KingEric04]

You’re tying yourself in knots here. You’ve even mentioned Eder, without whom Ronaldo probably wouldn’t even have the one major international trophy he has. We have different definitions of the word iconic that’s for certain.

But going on what you’re saying Ronaldo’s goals against Netherlands and the Czechs and whomever else must have been spectacular solo efforts? They certainly couldn’t be close range finishes after receiving a pass or a cross as he’d need to be set up by his team mates who clearly aren’t anywhere near good enough for that of what you’re saying is true. The real proof of what I’m saying will be in when he finally retires, and Portugal continue to qualify for everything and make the latter stages of competitions, and they will.

So now you're demanding from Ronaldo to score solo goals or really good goals? That's not how things work though. Let's take someone Zidane for example. Out of 3 goals that he had, 2 of them were penalties in 2006. He was pretty poor in the group stage and only really showed up in the knockout stages. That's not to dispute Zizou's legendary World Cup 2006 and it's generally considered to be one of the best World Cups by a single player.

Messi had the same amount of non penalty goals as Ronaldo in 2018 or Euro 2016. There are all of these "Penaldo" memes but it's a fact that no player in history had the amount of penalties in 2022 World Cup than Messi.

Yes, and he made Portugal to be a better team. Before he arrived Portugal had (0 international finals, 1 international title, 1 final and 2 UNL titles). They only had 6 or 7 major tournament appearences but they haven't missed a single one since he arrived there.

Portugal may continue to qualify for the big competitions but it was Ronaldo who made them to be a consistent team.

I said you need both. But if you give any player a choice of one trophy, they would all choose the World Cup. Without exception.

I can think of many players who had better World Cups campaigns than Ronaldo: Klose, Muller, James Rodriguez, R9, Forlan but none of them are in the GOAT conversation, maybe apart from R9.

Ronaldo was the most impactful player in the Champions League history and he conquered the 3 best leagues in the world. That alone puts him in top 5 of the GOATs.

The only thing that he's missing is that "iconic" World Cup but everyone is missing something in their CV.

 

[Fobal]

I'm not somebody that usualy trolls him, attack him or whatever, but did he really said this?:

"How many World Cups did Argentina win before Messi? They're used to winning"

He just can't leave Messi out and make declarations that backfire instantly?. I get that at some point even Messi might have bought the rivalry (I bet a lot more his family), but he on the other hand is trully obssesed, it gets quite annoying. Might be some Jordan alike "you are my enemy" in order to fuel constantly himself, dunno.
One thing it's a fans and the arguments that we can all fall being disingenuos, not objective, but for christ sake at least one time shut the fvck up.
I can bet too that Piers fueled that declaration too, but he has to know better when to avoid those unless he is also part of creating such stuff.

PD: I've just watch it, it's even worse. Quite a lot of pearls in that second part of the interview.

 

[KingEric04]

I'm not somebody that usualy trolls him, attack him or whatever, but did he really said this?:

"How many World Cups did Argentina win before Messi? They're used to winning"

He just can't leave Messi out and make declarations that backfire instantly?. I get that at some point even Messi might have bought the rivalry (I bet a lot more his family), but he on the other hand is trully obssesed, it gets quite annoying. Might be some Jordan alike "you are my enemy" in order to fuel constantly himself, dunno.
One thing it's a fans and the arguments that we can all fall being disingenuos, not objective, but for christ sake at least one time shut the fvck up.
I can bet too that Piers fueled that declaration too, but he has to know better when to avoid those unless he is also part of creating such stuff.

I am not sure if we watched the same interview. He said that he respected Rooney's opinion on Messi being better than him and that he had nothing against him.

He did say some dumb things like saying that it was easier for him to score in Spain than Saudi, or that World Cup isn't his "dream". I don't really buy that, he's probably trying to reduce his pressure but he knows it's his last chance to win it.

 

[Kwabs]

I think it just brings a feel good factor to an entire nation too. I have a couple of Argentine colleagues and their country was in quite a poor place when they won it, still is really, but the collective elation and the emotional lift a whole country got from winning a football tournament was incredible, it means an awful lot.

I think that’s what makes the World Cup truly special. And as you said, a lot of its prestige comes with its association when the games greatest names; Maradona, Pele, Beckenbauer, Zidane, Ronaldo (Brazil). Even guys like Cruyff that never won it have a special association with it because of amazing performances they were able to produce at World Cups.

Absolutely. The 'Cruyff turn', etc.

 

[Kwabs]

You have not watched all the Argentina games



No it isn't more important in mordern football because of much greater visibility of club football these days compared to the 90s and earlier.

International football gives a greater legacy to any player who has been great at club football. But, international football success without club football success for doesn't do much. I'll give you examples:
Cristiano is considered one of the greatest ever (maybe top 5 or top 10) despite being relatively unsuccessful in international football because of huge success in club football.
Forlan won the 2010 world cup golden boot but is nowhere near any "goat" list due to a club career that was good but not great. If this same golden boot had been won by a player like Cristiano, it would have had a different effect due to the base club success.

This is a terrible example for so many reasons that I don't even know where to start.

But the main point is that there was never a period where a player could be bad (or average) in club football and good internationally and still be a GOAT or all time great. Just because football is on TV more now, doesn't mean that no one paid attention to club football pre 1990.

And as I said before, even though club football is on TV way more, the World Cup is still watched by a billion more people than any club game. So how do you explain that?

 

[Kwabs]

That doesn't refute my point. Just because people view it as more important doesn't mean it is s better gauge or indicator of a players talent. If Messi didn't perform at international level and Ronaldo performed even better than he did i am pretty sure lots of sensible people would still view Messi as better.

maybe they would, but logic would dictate that it would be am erroneous view. How can you call an international failure the GOAT or say they're better than someone who can perform in big spots for both club and country? It doesn't make any sense

If they wc was the best test of ability then managers who won it would be regarded as the very best in the world, which they aren't.

Maybe you should have a look at the list of managers who have won the World Cup and reconsider.

 

[Kwabs]

I had a colleague when I worked in America briefly who was sports mad and talked about the World Cup all the time when it was on. When it was over he said ‘can’t wait until the next one’. I said ‘well you know there’s the Premier League, Champions League if you like that’ and he had no interest. A lot treat it like the Olympics. It’s by far the biggest event in the sport.


When I was in Argentina recently, Messi was everywhere but interestingly he was recently stuck in alongside Maradona in murals and marketing, who I imagine had been there on his own for 30 years. There was a real feeling only in 2022 did Messi rise to greatness in Argentina and deserve a spot beside Diego because he did it for us. Argentina is just football-crazy and it elevated him to a place beyond even regular celebrities, that god-like status of Maradona.

Exactly, people trying to claim that it's not are kidding themselves. Usually it's just driven by agendas - 'my guy hasn't performed well in it, therefore it doesn't matter.' I'm sorry, it does.

 

[Raul Madrid]

maybe they would, but logic would dictate that it would be am erroneous view. How can you call an international failure the GOAT or say they're better than someone who can perform in big spots for both club and country? It doesn't make any sense

Maybe you should have a look at the list of managers who have won the World Cup and reconsider.

Because club career is more even and fair. International level can be very difficult, but it is clear from club level that Messi is better than Ronaldo imo. Who here can say with certainty who had it harder between messi and Ronaldo at international level? At club it is more even, so it is better to use imo.

Most managers of top international teams are not considered good enough for top clubs. If international level was so essential then they would be. Del bosque, van goal and lippi are exceptions in the last 20 or so years. Am I missing anyone?

 

[Fobal]

Absolutely. The 'Cruyff turn', etc.

That BTW like most or all moves, isn't the first one, but the one that made it more famous

 

[Fobal]

I am not sure if we watched the same interview. He said that he respected Rooney's opinion on Messi being better than him and that he had nothing against him.

He did say some dumb things like saying that it was easier for him to score in Spain than Saudi, or that World Cup isn't his "dream". I don't really buy that, he's probably trying to reduce his pressure but he knows it's his last chance to win it.

A lot of dumb stuff, not just those two.

But mostly, like at times I even say to you, why on hell when Piers goes for Messi he just throws a pearl like the one of the WC in your fashion.
You as a fan it's not a big deal, you can feel and throw whatever rocks your boat, but him being the player he is, to once again have a go in the media against the other one with no need at all, it's just too cringe.

 

[KingEric04]

A lot of dumb stuff, not just those two.

But mostly, like at times I even say to you, why on hell when Piers goes for Messi he just throws a pearl like the one of the WC in your fashion.
You as a fan it's not a big deal, you can feel and throw whatever rocks your boat, but him being the player he is, to once again have a go in the media against the other one with no need at all, it's just too cringe.

To be fair, I can't stand Piers Morgan. He always asks dumb questions and his shows are pretty bad. The amount of bad questions that he had for Ronaldo were incredible. And he tried to insert politics into his questions which was completely unnecessary. Leo and Ronaldo are generally apolitical from what I've seen. But I am curious what other things did he say that you considered "dumb"?

 

[Gavinb33]

Not seen the interview and not going to either, anything with Piers Morgan is absolutely unwatchable.

for someone who wants everyone to love him it's a strange polarizing choice of Interviewer.

Morgan will fellate him and his ego

 

[Gehrman]