Cristiano Ronaldo - 976/1000 | Football only

I trully think that digging more on Cristiano's WC carreer at this point will only attract unnecesary bashing or excessive defense with a touch of silly victimazation.

Timing has a lot to do with WCs in a very unfair style sometimes, so maybe it's time to move on till he starts a new season and who knows if he still it's cited for the NT or not.
 
michelleOntaRio-Rio said:
Great response.

It’s a ridiculously sour argument anyway. Maybe it’s testament to what Ronaldo has achieved because I’ve never heard anyone who has been part of a successful team be discredited from that success. From mediocre players like John O’Shea to great players like Ronaldo.

You could equally state that Rooney wasn’t important to United’s league and CL double in 07/08 since he only scored one goal in the knockout steps of the tourni and he only hit 7 goals after the turn of the year in the league.

Or that Rooney was a disgrace, a joke, pathetic on the World Cup stage as he scored 1 (ONE) World Cup goal in his entire life. That’s as many as Peter Crouch, Emile Heskey, Matthew Upson and one less than John Stones managed. Ronaldo scored 3 times as many at 41 and Rooney looked like a 63 year old at 31.

But rational people wouldn’t do that since the bigger picture is that Rooney was a great player deserving of the credit and the shine that the collective achieved.
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1. Ronaldo credits himself rather than their whole team for that Euro victory. He also credits himself for Portugal's winning whatever they've won as he regurgitated in 3rd person his fanboys lines on Portugal titles before and after Cristiano.

2. Yes, he did play his part and deserves due credit but he was not the driving force or the outstanding player in that tournament and in the grand scheme of things when comparing all time greats it does matter.
As an example, Henry won both the world cup and Euro but was not the main protagonist in that French team; so, while he also deserved credit for his role, he cannot claim individual greatness based on those tournaments.
 
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FootballHQ said:
He was very good in the Wales game, brilliant header to break deadlock in tight game. Can't judge final with injury after 20 minutes or whatever. Did find it funny him being assistant manager on touchline and piggybacking Santos at final whistle.

I'm struggling to remember too much in the Poland and Croatia games. Those were just tight low chance creation matches so not like he was dribbling through half the defence and teammates were missing open goals. In the groups where Portugal drew all three he didn't score against Iceland or Austria.

The one tournament game where he did replicate his club status was the 3-3 v Spain in 2018. A masterclass of a performance that night. Also scored v Morocco so that was his last major tournament at his peak imo.
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He cost them in 2018. His missed penalty v Iran meant they faced Uruguay and not Russia
 
Posh Red said:
Was Ronaldo really that good at that Euros? That was back when he was actually an amazing player. I don’t remember him being amazing throughout that tournament in general, though.
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Personally i think his best tournaments were in his early years, but you also have to look at it in the context that Portugal have never really been a powerhouse at international level, their pedigree is similar to a team like Belgium imo. Saying, that i do believe he has been average with some bright sparks in these tournaments and individually the output hasn't matched his club form. For some this outweighs his GOAT level club career, which is an irrational take borne out of dislike for him.
 
10 goals in total at World Cups is not bad at all. However, 9 was in group stages and only one in knockout stages was a penalty. So he did underperform at World Cups, unlike every other competition he was in as a player.
 
BorisManUtd said:
10 goals in total at World Cups is not bad at all. However, 9 was in group stages and only one in knockout stages was a penalty. So he did underperform at World Cups, unlike every other competition he was in as a player.
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I do feel that the whole obession knockout goals is overstated. I mean yes, they bring you greater glory, but I dont remember this obesssion with knockout goals untill Messi and Ronaldo became a thing.
 
Gehrman said:
I do feel that the whole obession knockout goals is overstated. I mean yes, they bring you greater glory, but I dont remember this obesssion with knockout goals untill Messi and Ronaldo became a thing.
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It's games where your team has to win otherwise they're out. Goals in group stages of CL are important, but the ones in quarterfinal, semis and especially CL final are biggest ones of course.
 
BorisManUtd said:
It's games where your team has to win otherwise they're out. Goals in group stages of CL are important, but the ones in quarterfinal, semis and especially CL final are biggest ones of course.
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I know but I feel we´ve made discourse too dismissive of goals scored in the group stages.
 
Gehrman said:
I do feel that the whole obession knockout goals is overstated. I mean yes, they bring you greater glory, but I dont remember this obesssion with knockout goals untill Messi and Ronaldo became a thing.
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The obsession with goals in general (over performances) is sad.
 
BorisManUtd said:
10 goals in total at World Cups is not bad at all. However, 9 was in group stages and only one in knockout stages was a penalty. So he did underperform at World Cups, unlike every other competition he was in as a player.
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1.67 goals per WC. He's supposed to be the greatest goalscorer ever.
 
BorisManUtd said:
That's why I said he underperfomed at World Cups.


That's perhaps true as well.
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You also said 10 goals in total at World Cups is not bad at all. I think 10 goals in 6 tournaments is pretty bad when you're in every conversation for best goalscorer ever.
 
From memory he is unlucky in the sense that he made his international debut just as Portugal's golden generation was winding down.

From around 2010 to 2018, Portugal were pretty mid at best. They had a lot of talented players who never really lived up to the hype: Veloso, Moutinho, Nani, Quaresma, Renato Sanches, Bruma. Then you had a bunch of solid but fairly average players like Meireles, Tiago, William Carvalho and Joao Mario.

Now Portugal have the most stacked squad they've ever had, but he is already winding down his career. The timing just never really lined up.
 
BorisManUtd said:
10 goals in total at World Cups is not bad at all. However, 9 was in group stages and only one in knockout stages was a penalty. So he did underperform at World Cups, unlike every other competition he was in as a player.
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It is alright. He has played in six WCs now (and barely gets subbed in these games so need to look at minutes per goals).

If I've added up all the games since 2006 (including third place play off) it is 10 goals in roughly 28 games.

Haaland nearly scored that already in his maiden WC tournament. Kane has 14 in 17 games or so.
 
The narrative that Portugal were awful before Ronaldo or that he’s dragged them up needs to die. I’m 43 and for as long as I can remember they’ve had a couple of world class players in each squad, with a very solid supporting cast to boot.

Not completely stacked like some other nations, of course, but it was hardly Bale + Wales level. He even began his international career alongside players such as Figo, Rui Costa, Deco, Carvalho and others, reaching Euro 2004 final and WC semi in 2006. He’s had it pretty good.
 
It’s pretty clear where I stand on “the debate” but at the same time, I find comparing his WC stats with those of Kane / Haaland / Mbappe silly. Football is a team sport where the context of the collective is crucial. The cohesion of the unit, the expectations, the manager and their tactical setup etc are all crucial, and hence you see these statistical discrepancies in international cup competions.

Rooney has a shit WC record but it’s also because England were abysmally managed and he seemed to always get injuries before the tournament. I’m not saying football’s most important tournament doesn’t matter but so does nuance.
 
Satnev scholsey said:
I do remember the Hungary game and it was the only game in which he impressed.
That was a very jammy tournament win and Ronaldo himself, Hungary game apart, wasn't really good.
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That's fair from you, appreciate it. And honestly? Here in Portugal we know it was incredibly jammy and we did, do, and will keep, comparing it to Greece's victory in 2004.

We say here "we played so well in 2004 and didn't win it, it was 'unfair', but in 2016 we made it while playing like shit, BUT WE DESERVED THAT!" :lol:

FootballHQ said:
He was very good in the Wales game, brilliant header to break deadlock in tight game. Can't judge final with injury after 20 minutes or whatever. Did find it funny him being assistant manager on touchline and piggybacking Santos at final whistle.

I'm struggling to remember too much in the Poland and Croatia games. Those were just tight low chance creation matches so not like he was dribbling through half the defence and teammates were missing open goals. In the groups where Portugal drew all three he didn't score against Iceland or Austria.
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Euro 2012 was his best performance for us, and WC 2018.

He was amazing, absolutely amazing against Netherlands and Czechia, in 2012. Well worth watching the highlights, on YouTube, no music and with commentary. He just absolutely murdered their defenses the entire game.

+ Sweden in 2013 WC playoff
+ Switzerland NL semi final
+ Spain WC 2018

Make up his top 5 games for us.

There's a couple other folks I need to reply to, will do that later.
 
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For a player of Ronaldo's stature in the game he's been absolutely horrendous at them. Don't care for the qualifiers, when the pressure is on he can't do it. It's been the case since 2008. Best footballer in the world playing like some absolute amateur. At club level he's obviously been class for a very long time, though, he should have worked on his issues with some experts.
 
cafecillos said:
You also said 10 goals in total at World Cups is not bad at all. I think 10 goals in 6 tournaments is pretty bad when you're in every conversation for best goalscorer ever.
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It's not bad, but it's not great either, he underperfomed at World Cups definitely. The reason I'm saying it's not bad because I thought he had less tbh.
 
Gehrman said:
I know but I feel we´ve made discourse too dismissive of goals scored in the group stages.
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And it's absolutely silly, worse when many of those goals for any player are in group stages were the stakes are similar to a KO game. In fact even goping to that extreme, in this last WC if Portugal did their homework and scored and won against Congo, they would have never end playing with Spain.
 
youngrell said:
The narrative that Portugal were awful before Ronaldo or that he’s dragged them up needs to die. I’m 43 and for as long as I can remember they’ve had a couple of world class players in each squad, with a very solid supporting cast to boot.

Not completely stacked like some other nations, of course, but it was hardly Bale + Wales level. He even began his international career alongside players such as Figo, Rui Costa, Deco, Carvalho and others, reaching Euro 2004 final and WC semi in 2006. He’s had it pretty good.
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Agree he didn't drag them up on his own but they were crap for ages. They didn't qualify for the 1990, 1994, 1998 World Cups and went out in the group stage in 2002. Euro 2004 and WC 2006 were when they got good, largely for the reasons you state.
 
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Vidyoyo said:
Agree he didn't drag them up on his own but they were crap for ages. They didn't qualify for the 1990, 1994, 1998 World Cups and went out in the group stage in 2002. Euro 2004 and 2006 was when they got good for the reasons you state.
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When it comes to World Cups, before Ronaldo they only qualified 3 times: in 1966 they were 3rd, in 1986 17th (out in group stage) and 21st in 2002 (out in group stage). Haven't missed one World Cup since Ronaldo's debut.
 
Satnev scholsey said:
1. Ronaldo credits himself rather than their whole team for that Euro victory. He also credits himself for Portugal's winning whatever they've won as he regurgitated in 3rd person his fanboys lines on Portugal titles before and after Cristiano.

2. Yes, he did play his part and deserves due credit but he was not the driving force or the outstanding player in that tournament and in the grand scheme of things when comparing all time greats it does matter.
As an example, Henry won both the world cup and Euro but was not the main protagonist in that French team; so, while he also deserved credit for his role, he cannot claim individual greatness based on those tournaments.
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“I would like to thank this man right here (Fernando Santos), first of all without him none of this would be possible. Second, to all the players, all the staff, everyone involved in this conquest.
“No one believed in Portugal, but the truth is we made it. All of us, we did it. I am very happy, this is one of the happiest days of my life.
“Forget the individual trophies, Champions League – this is one of the happiest moments of my life. I have cried three of four times already and my brother had to tell me to calm down.
“And I said: ‘Hugo, I can’t’. It’s true, from the bottom of my heart, I swear on my son’s life, I am so very, very, very happy. I could repeat this 100 times. I am so happy.
"This is the trophy that was missing. Thanks to all of you players, all the staff and you again coach. All the faith you had, honestly, it touched me.
“From the bottom of my heart I am truly happy. We deserved this. We are now in the history of Portugal. We are the first team to achieve this.”

You do you dude.
 
bakalhau said:
That's fair from you, appreciate it. And honestly? Here in Portugal we know it was incredibly jammy and we did, do, and will keep, comparing it to Greece's victory in 2004.

We say here "we played so well in 2004 and didn't win it, it was 'unfair', but in 2016 we made it while playing like shit, BUT WE DESERVED THAT!" :lol:



Euro 2012 was his best performance for us, and WC 2018.

He was amazing, absolutely amazing against Netherlands and Czechia, in 2012. Well worth watching the highlights, on YouTube, no music and with commentary. He just absolutely murdered their defenses the entire game.

+ Sweden in 2013 WC playoff
+ Switzerland NL semi final
+ Spain WC 2018

Make up his top 5 games for us.

There's a couple other folks I need to reply to, will do that later.
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Agree that Euro 2012 was his best individual tournament - even if you remove his goals (which were decisive in its own right), he was a constant attacking force and probably the last time he wasn't an out and out goalscorer at the international stage (unless I'm mistaken).

But equally, it was a terrible blunder on his part (or whoever decided it) to save himself for the fifth (and potentially, glory) penalty against Spain in the semis, only to not be able to take one at all. You always put your best penalty takers within the first three, no matter what!

Other than that, yeah, 2018 WC was a big what-if. He was in form, firing, and looked set for a deep run. But despite scoring four goals (including a hat-trick against Spain), one missed penalty in the last group game meant they got to play Uruguay instead of Russia, and were knocked out. Granted, Russia were hosts and no pushovers, but had Portugal won their group, their potential road to the final would have been Russia, Croatia, and Southgate's England. Not easy by any stretch, but you'd back them to beat all three, and Ronaldo himself would've fancied his chances of statpadding.

Euro 2021 was decent, and weirdly enough, he was actually the top scorer, but 3 of his 5 goals were penalties and by then he was already slowly starting to be a hindrance and net-negative to the team.
 
BorisManUtd said:
When it comes to World Cups, before Ronaldo they only qualified 3 times: in 1966 they were 3rd, in 1986 17th (out in group stage) and 21st in 2002 (out in group stage). Haven't missed one World Cup since Ronaldo's debut.
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Im not dismissing Ronaldo's own input here but in 1998 they expanded to a 32 team tournament and introduced 2nd chance playoffs. Ie it became easier to qualify.
 
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Vidyoyo said:
Agree he didn't drag them up on his own but they were crap for ages. They didn't qualify for the 1990, 1994, 1998 World Cups and went out in the group stage in 2002. Euro 2004 and 2006 was when they got good for the reasons you state.
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Portugal was fantastic in the 60s, with great players and a GOAT alike forgotten gem like Eusebio.

Then in the 80s they had some great players and a GEM that deserved a better carreer, till this day perhaps my favorite Portugal player ever with Eusebio: FUTRE, people does not grasp how good he was, the thing also it's that in that period, there were also a huge amount of extraordinary 10's and dribblers to compete and he had too many injuries, some chronic alike (leaving aside his not that pro self).

Then in the 90s and 00s Portugal did a greta job with youngsters winning the WC, I still remember the war at with us Argentina (deservely kicked off of the tournament), mad stuff, with the looney of Esnaider, and the excellent Figo, Jorge Costa, Rui Costa ...later they had the kid Dani too and a third place in YWC to the late build up of that 00 Gen with lots of great players that couldn't grab that Euro against Greece that already had the arrival of Cristiano to the scene.

It reminds me of how timing can be cruel and so deteminant in certain points, God knows what could have happen for Cristiano if they grabbed that Euro and Messi won that Copa 2007, yet since those pivotal isntances with both, the NT became a troubled road that at that point looked like it could have been a straight new autobahn....shyte, mostly meaning timing, happened.
 
Fobal said:
Portugal was fantastic in the 60s, with great players and a GOAT alike forgotten gem like Eusebio.

Then in the 80s they had some great players and a GEM that deserved a better carreer, till this day perhaps my favorite Portugal player ever with Eusebio: FUTRE, people does not grasp how good he was, the thing also it's that in that period, there were also a huge amount of extraordinary 10's and dribblers to compete and he had too many injuries, some chronic alike (leaving aside his not that pro self).

Then in the 90s and 00s Portugal did a greta job with youngsters winning the WC, I still remember the war at with us Argentina (deservely kicked off of the tournament), mad stuff, with the looney of Esnaider, and the excellent Figo, Jorge Costa, Rui Costa ...later they had the kid Dani too and a third place in YWC to the late build up of that 00 Gen with lots of great players that couldn't grab that Euro against Greece that already had the arrival of Cristiano to the scene.

It reminds me of how timing can be cruel and so deteminant in certain points, God knows what could have happen for Cristiano if they grabbed that Euro and Messi won that Copa 2007, yet since those pivotal isntances with both, the NT became a troubled road that at that point looked like it could have been a straight new autobahn....shyte, mostly meaning timing, happened.
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How old are you?
 
Fobal said:
Portugal was fantastic in the 60s, with great players and a GOAT alike forgotten gem like Eusebio.

Then in the 80s they had some great players and a GEM that deserved a better carreer, till this day perhaps my favorite Portugal player ever with Eusebio: FUTRE, people does not grasp how good he was, the thing also it's that in that period, there were also a huge amount of extraordinary 10's and dribblers to compete and he had too many injuries, some chronic alike (leaving aside his not that pro self).

Then in the 90s and 00s Portugal did a greta job with youngsters winning the WC, I still remember the war at with us Argentina (deservely kicked off of the tournament), mad stuff, with the looney of Esnaider, and the excellent Figo, Jorge Costa, Rui Costa ...later they had the kid Dani too and a third place in YWC to the late build up of that 00 Gen with lots of great players that couldn't grab that Euro against Greece that already had the arrival of Cristiano to the scene.

It reminds me of how timing can be cruel and so deteminant in certain points, God knows what could have happen for Cristiano if they grabbed that Euro and Messi won that Copa 2007, yet since those pivotal isntances with both, the NT became a troubled road that at that point looked like it could have been a straight new autobahn....shyte, mostly meaning timing, happened.
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I appreciate this post because you sound very enthusiastic and know me better than me, but it does make me wonder... was the team good in the 80s and early 90s actually good or were they still reliant on individuals? Certainly that's the impression I've always had from the Portugal NT, except through the period after 2004, when they could reasonably rely on an array of talent throughout the squad - Figo, Deco, Carvalho, Nani, Pepe, Rui Costa (arguably Couto too).
 
Scarlett Dracarys said:
How old are you?
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Almost 53. Old as dirt.

Also old enough to advise you to drop the whole full antagonist man, there was a time when any fan had to deal with trully over the top officiating (some as a kid that I just revisited when becoming older and quite a mad lover of the game), hideous calls and you have to just deal with those. Lately every football forum has become extremely focus to excessive lengths regarding the dirt, the honest mistakes and anything around and within the game that just only fuels boring antagonism. My half a cent.
 
Vidyoyo said:
Agree he didn't drag them up on his own but they were crap for ages. They didn't qualify for the 1990, 1994, 1998 World Cups and went out in the group stage in 2002. Euro 2004 and WC 2006 were when they got good, largely for the reasons you state.
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They made the semis of Euro 2000 and beat England on the way there and they made the final of Euro 2004 (Ronaldo was in the team but still a pup). Ronaldo's arrival just coincided with the beginning of great period for Portuguese football (Figo's peak, Pauleta, Porto European champions, etc).
 
Dannn411 said:
They made the semis of Euro 2000 and beat England on the way there and they made the final of Euro 2004 (Ronaldo was in the team but still a pup). Ronaldo's arrival just coincided with the beginning of great period for Portuguese football (Figo's peak, Pauleta, Porto European champions, etc).
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That semi final loss was also against France led by a Zidane at his absolute peak, and by an extra time golden goal. Just a bit more luck and they would've played in the final. I'm also slightly flabbergasted by this recent trend of making pre-Ronaldo Portugal seem like some sort of minnow.
 
So, at the end of his WC career, we can say he was ultimately disappointing in WC

There's an element of chance, where Portugal had a great generation right when he started out, then a fairly barren one during his prime years, then another great generation as he aged into his mid/late 30s
 
Gehrman said:
Im not dismissing Ronaldo's own input here but in 1998 they expanded to a 32 team tournament and introduced 2nd chance playoffs. Ie it became easier to qualify.
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This is one of the problems when we use stats or achievements to convey a sentiment. Without the overall context they don’t mean much. I’m not necessarily talking about the stat you were replying to, or even stats about Ronaldo be they positive or negative, but so much of football discourse gets reduced to ‘x scored y amount of goals in this amount of games’ or some stat like that and it ignores how strong the league was in those years, the type of football played, the role of player x etc. Especially when it comes to player comparisons.

I understand why we do it, that it’s a matter of simplicity and a byproduct of online discourse. And of course they can be useful.
 
Dannn411 said:
They made the semis of Euro 2000 and beat England on the way there and they made the final of Euro 2004 (Ronaldo was in the team but still a pup). Ronaldo's arrival just coincided with the beginning of great period for Portuguese football (Figo's peak, Pauleta, Porto European champions, etc).
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Appreciate this, I was mostly looking at their World Cup history in response.
 
Vidyoyo said:
I appreciate this post because you sound very enthusiastic and know me better than me, but it does make me wonder... was the team good in the 80s and early 90s actually good or were they still reliant on individuals? Certainly that's the impression I've always had from the Portugal NT, except through the period after 2004, when they could reasonably rely on an array of talent throughout the squad - Figo, Deco, Carvalho, Nani, Pepe, Rui Costa (arguably Couto too).
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I'll take it further. The problem of squads not being proper teams and playing at such or even at times even playing as teams not to its full potential it happens on every club yet it's even more of an issue regarding NTs.
In the 90's Portugal did some great scouuting and their YNTs played great as teams and at the end of the day it didn't inmediatly translate to the Senior squad, people when talk about Golden Gen, forget that not just one team can claim a Golden Gen. That Euro in 2004 they consolidated all of what was done great in the 90's in youth level, a great ran in Euro 2000, they had an already experienced squad, they had extraordinary new arrivals with Cristiano, there were a team, they played as such, they had excellent players all around, yet at times it's, not your day, the rival also plays and things just don't happen.

The chemistry and understanding within NTs is a very delicate situation, that's why normally NTs that have more players from the same team (or a couple of them) helps a lot, less travels too, being already in Top competitions because those are form your home grwon country, etc..
One of the most recent issues with the German NT has to do with Bayern (or any great side from the past from Bundesliga) not providing an in form great spinal cord of German players for the NT, being that one of the things that helped a lot Spain in the 00s.
Still, the very nature of less training, of the 4 years of separation of WCs with all that this implies in terms of pression, form, injuries, newcomers etc makes that it's not either an infalible formula and WCs are such emotional rolercoasters were momentum, timing is king.
 
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Fobal said:
Almost 53. Old as dirt.

Also old enough to advise you to drop the whole full antagonist man, there was a time when any fan had to deal with trully over the top officiating (some as a kid that I just revisited when becoming older and quite a mad lover of the game), hideous calls and you have to just deal with those. Lately every football forum has become extremely focus to excessive lengths regarding the dirt, the honest mistakes and anything around and within the game that just only fuels boring antagonism. My half a cent.
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It was a genuine question out of curiosity because you seemed knowledgeable. It wasn't meant to antagonize. You're obviously biased towards Argentina so whatever you say is just one sided. That's just facts. I'm not the only one who sees this trend in every Messi/Argentine supporter.
 
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