Cristiano Ronaldo - Much Ado About Al Nassr

While it's been a bit pathetic, it's also very amusing to watch Ronaldo and his complete meltdown and headloss since Messi won the World Cup. Whether on the pitch or off it, he's absolutely lost it.
 
Out of interest how old are you?

Pele might be all of those things but unless you were alive to see him in his pomp and actually went along to a number of his games it is incredibly hard to make that statement with such certainty. There is not that much footage of Pele playing and what exists is of very limited quality making it next to impossible to judge him against contemporary players. I am not saying he was not great but this is an argument that has been going on amongst real scholars of the game for a while now, much of his legend is received wisdom rather than objective assessment, his acheievements were incredible but came in a far less professional era for the sport. To state with such certainty that he is essentially better at everything than Ronaldo is bizarre unless you have extensive first hand knowledge.
There’s plenty of full games and footage that gives cause to rounded assessments of Pele. You definitely don’t need to have watched him first hand to judge, just as you don’t with any legend of the game with footage; if you watch a handful of Puskas games, for example, it’s easy to see that is one of the best left feet in history; if you watch a handful of Charlton games, you can see this is a player whose shooting is incontestable for all but a handful of players throughout history; you watch a few games of Best and it’s evident this guy is one of the best dribblers you will see. All the greats match their billing, otherwise they’d be discredited sharpish, especially so with how so many seem eager to denigrate the past or call it nostalgia.
 
There’s plenty of full games and footage that gives cause to rounded assessments of Pele. You definitely don’t need to have watched him first hand to judge, just as you don’t with any legend of the game with footage; if you watch a handful of Puskas games, for example, it’s easy to see that is one of the best left feet in history; if you watch a handful of Charlton games, you can see this is a player whose shooting is incontestable for all but a handful of players throughout history; you watch a few games of Best and it’s evident this guy is one of the best dribblers you will see. All the greats match their billing, otherwise they’d be discredited sharpish, especially so with how so many seem eager to denigrate the past or call it nostalgia.
When did he play for Charlton?

I jest, I do take your point but having said that you are mostly relying on a handful of World Cup games filmed very primitively to make an assessment of Pele and you are of course judging him against the players of his day. I did not express it well but my overall point was that people make statements about how great this player or that player is and often there is little objective analysis behind it. Once you venture into comparing one player against another, particularly from different eras, then you are really getting into the realms of personal preference and emotional attachment and we are all susceptible to conventional wisdom in the case of legends of the game.

I don't think Ronaldo is the best player ever by the way, that is clearly Gareth Bale.

I am Welsh, what did you think I would say?
 
Out of interest how old are you?

Pele might be all of those things but unless you were alive to see him in his pomp and actually went along to a number of his games it is incredibly hard to make that statement with such certainty. There is not that much footage of Pele playing and what exists is of very limited quality making it next to impossible to judge him against contemporary players. I am not saying he was not great but this is an argument that has been going on amongst real scholars of the game for a while now, much of his legend is received wisdom rather than objective assessment, his acheievements were incredible but came in a far less professional era for the sport. To state with such certainty that he is essentially better at everything than Ronaldo is bizarre unless you have extensive first hand knowledge.
This is completely false. There's a website called Footballia which has 40+ full matches featuring Pele. Including games from the 58 World Cup, the 62 World Cup and all of the games from the 1970 world cup. Those are worth watching just to see a great team, rather than just Pele.

Some of the games from the early 60s are bad quality, but overall, there is plenty there to get a very good idea of what he could do. Plus it is better than highlights, because you see all the mistakes as well.

Your point might be valid if you were talking about footballers from the pre television age (like Meazza or Sindelar - such players can only be described by the people that saw them in the stadiums), but Pele is nowhere near that vintage. Any one who is curious about him can do the research, fortunately.

It's pretty clear from watching the footage that he was far superior to CR in many ways - CR is very talented, but doesn't have genius level footballing ability IMO - his strength is his athleticism and extreme focus and determination. Pele was a genius.
 
When did he play for Charlton?

I jest, I do take your point but having said that you are mostly relying on a handful of World Cup games filmed very primitively to make an assessment of Pele and you are of course judging him against the players of his day. I did not express it well but my overall point was that people make statements about how great this player or that player is and often there is little objective analysis behind it. Once you venture into comparing one player against another, particularly from different eras, then you are really getting into the realms of personal preference and emotional attachment and we are all susceptible to conventional wisdom in the case of legends of the game.

I don't think Ronaldo is the best player ever by the way, that is clearly Gareth Bale.

I am Welsh, what did you think I would say?
There are a lot more games available for Pele than the World Cups. Human kinesiology has barely changed - they aren’t playing some vastly different game; the technical level on display is apparent. You don’t need anything but eyes to see that certain things are extraordinary, unless you can watch, say, a Maradona compilation (not even full games) and think ‘meh, couldn’t do that now’. Fitness levels, tactical variations and so forth have moved on, but only maybe three players since the 80’s are anywhere near as refined with their control and manipulation of the ball as the wee Argentine, and even that’s stretching it. Puskas, a player from the 50’s, no less, still easily has a claim to be the best striker of a ball the game has ever seen. These things can be judged in isolation; you don’t need to be of the here and now, or the supposed modern era, to see it. And that can be extrapolated to more aspects of a player or even the whole player - you don’t need to see much of a Best to know his way of moving and the acceleration that comes with it is timeless. As I say humans, as a species, have not moved on enough for it to not be so.
 
It's pretty clear from watching the footage that he was far superior to CR in many ways - CR is very talented, but doesn't have genius level footballing ability IMO - his strength is his athleticism and extreme focus and determination. Pele was a genius.
Totally agree with the bolded to be fair, his mentality is possibly the most elite trait he has. I admire the way CR7 has been so single minded and sacrificed so much to remain in the physical shape he has for this long but I have never thought of him as being the most technically skillful player in any area. He is a case study in maximising everything you have.

Thanks for the response by the way, I was curious as I so often hear people throw out the name of Pele or even our own George Best when they were not even born in the last century and in many cases they have not watched them.
 
There are a lot more games available for Pele than the World Cups. Human kinesiology has barely changed - they aren’t playing some vastly different game; the technical level on display is apparent. You don’t need anything but eyes to see that certain things are extraordinary, unless you can watch, say, a Maradona compilation (not even full games) and think ‘meh, couldn’t do that now’. Fitness levels, tactical variations and so forth have moved on, but only maybe three players since the 80’s are anywhere near as refined with their control and manipulation of the ball as the wee Argentine, and even that’s stretching it. Puskas, a player from the 50’s, no less, still easily has a claim to be the best striker of a ball the game has ever seen. These things can be judged in isolation; you don’t need to be of the here and now, or the supposed modern era, to see it. And that can be extrapolated to more aspects of a player or even the whole player - you don’t need to see much of a Best to know his way of moving and the acceleration that comes with it is timeless. As I say humans, as a species, have not moved on enough for it to not be so.


Much of that I agree with, there is actually a good case to be made that considering the weight of the ball in previous eras, standard of pitches and other impediments that contrary to popular opinion it is modern players who would struggle in an earlier era and not the other way around. It is a fascinating debate and much better in the pub but I don't want to derail this particular thread any further as I fear I am straying way off topic.
 
The Adam Tate of Football.
He does seem like someone who wants to be like Zlatan and actually has more to back the claims up. But while Zlatan has some charisma when he tries to make everyone vomit, Ronaldo does sound like some misunderstood Tate-type of incel, especially when he tells his jokes about how he "teases" his kids back by saying daddy is the best of all time. Though I do appreciate that he does talk up some other players, like most recently he did for Vini and Mbappe.
 
Much of that I agree with, there is actually a good case to be made that considering the weight of the ball in previous eras, standard of pitches and other impediments that contrary to popular opinion it is modern players who would struggle in an earlier era and not the other way around. It is a fascinating debate and much better in the pub but I don't want to derail this particular thread any further as I fear I am straying way off topic.
Not really straying as Cron has opened the floor to all-time discussion. There are plenty of threads on here that delve into the subject if you’re interested. There’s also the objective reasoning that you literally could not press as a unit on the pitches of those times, in those heavy cotton kits and so forth. I’d also argue that the emphasis on fitness and athleticism has come at a cost: ball manipulation and training is suffering and progression is proving to be far from linear.
 
I'm starting to think the dislike of Ronaldo's character has impacted the ability to judge him as a player.
 
I'm starting to think the dislike of Ronaldo's character has impacted the ability to judge him as a player.
He's always been an unlikeable twat. It's just that his ability on the patch no longer matches his ego, so people are noticing his character defects even more.
 
Much of that I agree with, there is actually a good case to be made that considering the weight of the ball in previous eras, standard of pitches and other impediments that contrary to popular opinion it is modern players who would struggle in an earlier era and not the other way around. It is a fascinating debate and much better in the pub but I don't want to derail this particular thread any further as I fear I am straying way off topic.
Those are good points and talents were also terrific before. Maybe it's the current generation of tactics also, but nowadays lower than impeccable fitness does seem to lead to snowing under currently, though. But if Pele would play today, he'd probably be more fit, too. Just as many players would be more adjusted to those older balls, too. Perhaps back then charisma and star power were more important, as well, where now not even Messi could win (strings of) games on his own after 2015/16 or so. Even though back then 25 goals a season was star power, it was often enough to lead the rest on to perform to greater heights, in support of the star player, but also of the total number of goals.

But where they used to say (or maybe it was just Cruijff) that you shouldn't have two captains on one ship, now you either need multiple leaders, or no captains at all, it seems. It's not entirely true, but now it's often the case that if there is a leader, it's not exactly Messi or Ronaldo leading the line, but instead more of a tactical figure like Van Dijk. Whether they wear the armband or don't. You still have some Bruno's walking around, but......... it might have been better if that was more symbolic than it is.
 
Him saying he's the most complete player in history is the most embarrassing thing I've read anywhere. Just accept you lived in an era where there was someone better than you mate, why is that so hard to accept (not even talking about Maradona and Pele here). The guy is probably among the best 5 players of all time and somehow that's not enough for him. What a sad mentality.

Not sure why you're waffling on at me like I'm the one who said it. All I did was address the fact that people (you maybe by your response?) claimed he wasn't an elite dribbler and I proved without a shadow of a doubt that that was absolute revolutionist nonsense and he was for a long period of time, in his peak one of the absolute best dribblers in the world. Not sure why you've gone off on some ranty tangent about something I've nothing to do with or said.
 
I can't imagine what it must be like to be so good at something, think you're the best ever at it, but to have 9 less team trophies and 3 less best player in the world trophies than the actual #1
 
He's always been an unlikeable twat. It's just that his ability on the patch no longer matches his ego, so people are noticing his character defects even more.

I don't disagree with that assessment at all - but like people here are mocking him for basically being less good than Messi which is just...bizarre :lol:
 
The more he says stuff like that more he reeks of insecurity. The best don’t need to tell people they’re the best, it clearly eats away at him that he’s not considered the best of his own generation let alone all time. For a guy about to hit 40 he’s a serious man child.
 
I'm starting to think the dislike of Ronaldo's character has impacted the ability to judge him as a player.

Does it though?

A good amount people on here always had Ronaldo in the tier below Messi, Pele and Maradona. A good amount think Ronaldo Nazario was more talented.
 
The more he says stuff like that more he reeks of insecurity. The best don’t need to tell people they’re the best, it clearly eats away at him that he’s not considered the best of his own generation let alone all time. For a guy about to hit 40 he’s a serious man child.
Why do you guys care so much? He’s in the elite of the elite and an all time great, it’s not like it’s someone like Ivan Toney claiming he’s the greatest player ever. He can claim to be the best, some will agree, many won’t but he’s in the mixer.
 
Totally agree with the bolded to be fair, his mentality is possibly the most elite trait he has. I admire the way CR7 has been so single minded and sacrificed so much to remain in the physical shape he has for this long but I have never thought of him as being the most technically skillful player in any area. He is a case study in maximising everything you have.

Thanks for the response by the way, I was curious as I so often hear people throw out the name of Pele or even our own George Best when they were not even born in the last century and in many cases they have not watched them.
Absolutely, and this is why he's a hero to so many people. He sets goals and he attacks them, and a lot of people find inspiration in this.

For me though, I'm not interested in that. I want to see the Maradona type magic. So I'm always going to favour others over him, though I get why he is appealing as a public figure.

We only need to go back to when he and Rooney were kids, and Rooney was arguably ahead of him at the start. When you look at the two of them today, you can see the difference between someone who gave it absolutely everything, and another guy who gave a lot (Rooney had a great career still), but also cut some corners.
 
At least Ronaldo is living by doing something to be the greatest, not just living to suck Messi's c*ck in every thread.

Both are not wrong to live for, just one is significantly better.
 
The more he says stuff like that more he reeks of insecurity. The best don’t need to tell people they’re the best, it clearly eats away at him that he’s not considered the best of his own generation let alone all time. For a guy about to hit 40 he’s a serious man child.

Pele did, Maradona did, Romario did, sometimes they do...the thing it's that some did it with more grace, funnier?, less repetitive at some point and mainly it looks for diff reasons.

Diego did it more like trolling, after being triggered or even sometimes totally wasted, Romario the same (bar wasted), Pele more than anything to not loose protagonism, trolling everyone since ages, while keeping himself alive in the memory of the world to not let forget evryone that he will always be the best...
Cris sometimes looks like some part of the whole great confidence and mentality thing has to be constantly expose in order to not loose protagonism and his status as the best ever, he acts like if already wasn't enough people that thinks he is THE Goat.
Like I've said before, it's the constant contradictory stuff he says (in not the most gracious style) what makes him look like some sort of parody. Even some of his biggest media fans are kind of in such realm, Liberman, Speed, Alvaro Morales, Edu Aguirre, Morgan...so the whole combo becomes a bit cringe.
 
Why do you guys care so much? He’s in the elite of the elite and an all time great, it’s not like it’s someone like Ivan Toney claiming he’s the greatest player ever. He can claim to be the best, some will agree, many won’t but he’s in the mixer.
Because we’re football fans and like to talk about football? Do we need to ask your permission or something?

Anyway he’s a bell end who’s clearly insecure about the fact the overwhelming majority consider him to be the 2nd best of his generation. Most people would be delighted with that, but it seems to cause him a lot of distress.
 
Imagine if when people magazine did them lists of most beautiful people on the planet they ranked Messi at no1. Rather than consider it ridiculous I could see him turning up at their HQ with a portfolio banging on the doors.
 
Did something trigger his comments recently like adding to his cl tally with a brace against Al Wasl or does he just feel need to say it all the time?
 
Did something trigger his comments recently like adding to his cl tally with a brace against Al Wasl or does he just feel need to say it all the time?
Messi scored a couple of goals in training, and Ronaldo got insecure.
 
Because we’re football fans and like to talk about football? Do we need to ask your permission or something?

Anyway he’s a bell end who’s clearly insecure about the fact the overwhelming majority consider him to be the 2nd best of his generation. Most people would be delighted with that, but it seems to cause him a lot of distress.
Why would your answer be so defensive? It was a genuine question - it seems very strange if you think he’s the second best player of his generation that you have such an issue with him believing he’s the best. It’s not that crazy a leap as said.