Cristiano Ronaldo : The Juventus Chapter

snk123

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Not true at all.

Messi has scored 586 goals with his magical left foot and 91 with his right foot. Out of these goals, 70 were from outside the box and 491 from inside the box. He has scored 90 goals from the penalty spot

Talking about goal distribution, Ronaldo has 473 goals with his right foot and 135 with his left foot. He has scored 497 goals from inside the box and 58 from outside the box.

Messi has always been better from long range than Ronaldo and not just from free kicks.
What about headers? They are not tap ins
 

Andersonson

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Just saw his stats for Juventus.

I dont watch much Serie A, but my impression was that he was doing OK. Some people trash talking him and some people praising him.

In serie A for Juventus he has played 88 games and scored 73(!) times.

Thats insanely good

For us he has 196 games and 88 goals. He has almost scored the same amount of goals for us for Juventus in 100 games less.

This man is a footballing god and maybe the second greatest player ever!
 

Waynne

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Ronaldo is a better player than Messi as he's a danger in all aspects of the game. Long range drives, in the air, dribbling, he does it all and has done it all at United, Real and Juventus.
Wake me up when Messi has achieved the same in different cultures and at a different clubs.
Ronaldo is the textbook definition of determination.
 

432JuanMata

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Him and Messi are at the point in their careers where they can’t carry a side to titles and need better players around them. But Ronaldo got Morata and Messi Braitewaith.
 

Daysleeper

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Ronaldo is a better player than Messi as he's a danger in all aspects of the game. Long range drives, in the air, dribbling, he does it all and has done it all at United, Real and Juventus.
Wake me up when Messi has achieved the same in different cultures and at a different clubs.
Ronaldo is the textbook definition of determination.
What a troll post :lol:
 

Daysleeper

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Him and Messi are at the point in their careers where they can’t carry a side to titles and need better players around them. But Ronaldo got Morata and Messi Braitewaith.
Saved for season's end, Barca are very much alive to win the league and copa del rey. With Messi leading the way.
 

Red Stone

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Messi might be the GOAT, but his fans are genuinely the worst. Stay out of the fecking thread already.

There are two other threads on here for your shite. Pure Messi-stroking goes in the Messi thread, while there's the Messi vs Ronaldo thread for those that can't rub one out to Messi without simultaneously bashing Ronaldo.
 

spaceboyRSA

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Messi might be the GOAT, but his fans are genuinely the worst. Stay out of the fecking thread already.

There are two other threads on here for your shite. Pure Messi-stroking goes in the Messi thread, while there's the Messi vs Ronaldo thread for those that can't rub one out to Messi without simultaneously bashing Ronaldo.
Thats because Ronaldo lives inside Messi fans heads. Kind of like how Liverpool supporters are always obsessing over United.
 

SeanyC

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His stats are impressive in Italy, I’d put him down as a plan C or D for this summer on a rolling contract if we don’t get our targets
 

Iker Quesadillas

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I mean, that just goes to show that goals are a bad criterion to judge a player. So I think it's a bit short sighted to just see the goal and trophy records and derive something from it. People should be comparing players, not goal records and trophy cabinets.
The problem is you are trying to turn "goals aren't everything," a totally normal and understandable claim, to "goals aren't anything," which is completely and utterly absurd.
 

Adcuth

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Sure, I guess for the cr7 50cents army, going to Juve to win Serie A is a bigger challenge than staying in Real Madrid and challenge Barca and A.Madrid for the La Liga. Afterall, CR7 won 2 La Liga titles in 9 seasons with Real Madrid, but him going to Juve and getting freebie titles is more challenging according to them.
Still won that league more than once. New league, new challenge, another title on his resume. There's no need to criticise just because you have an agenda against him.
 

Zehner

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The problem is you are trying to turn "goals aren't everything," a totally normal and understandable claim, to "goals aren't anything," which is completely and utterly absurd.
Who's saying that is obviously wrong. From an analytical perspective, every goal is a chain of plays and the scorer is just the one who had the last touch before the ball passed the line. But every action can differ in importance. I believe that there is a tendency that the plays towards the end of the chain become more difficult and thus more valuable (which is why goals and assist are interesting stats) but there are regular exceptions to this rule.

There's this famous saying that "XYZ scored the goal but 50% of it belong to ABC". The concept behind that is exactly what I tried to describe above. I believe that people claiming Cristiano was a poacher during his latter years at Madrid are unfair and underrate certain areas of his game, such as his incredible movement and timing, but I also believe - referring to the "quote' above - that during his earlier years, Cristiano was reponsible for a larger 'percentage" of both the goals he scored himself as well of those his team mates scored, even though his stats might read inferior here and there.

On a sidenote, IMO goals and assists are outdated stats which stem from a time in which it was harder to track events om the pitch. Nowadays there are much, much better metrics to measure the attacking impact of a player, like xGoalChain or packing rate. I'd be very interested to see those stats for Crostiano between 2008 and 2013 since his metrics from around 2016 onwards don't look too amazing in comparison with other world class attackers.
 

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How he did greatly to help his team get to that final, when he didn’t play any games any minutes in the 2 semi, didn’t play any games any minutes in 2 quarters, and only play 30 mins in last 16? Throughout that campaign he only scored 1 goal too, is that what you as regarded “great” to you, whereas whatever Ronaldo did to win CL as top scorer every time in his winning campaign was poor to you?

It’s getting too ridiculous to a point that scoring most goals to win CL is poor contribution if it’s Ronaldo, whereas sitting on bench watching his teammates winning CL throughout all the knockout stages is great contribution if it’s Messi. You really need to sort out your own double standard as it’s way too extreme. I know you have your own agenda here, but at least try to be more subtle.
Messi was the best Barcelona player on a Stamford bridge pitch.

Any
He scored the goal in the 20th minute. You are complaining that someone was 'anonymous' in a CL final in which they scored two goals, after having scored 3 goals in the semifinals and 5 in the quarterfinals.
I respect him as a goalscorer and also his winning mentality but at the risk of repeating myself too many times, his play outside of that is nowhere near that of some of the best players in history.

Just consider the quarter and semi final games you talk about; his performances were nowhere memorable despite the goals. I'm not hating on him, just stating the obvious.

But ofcourse you being a Madrid fan and this being a United forum, the spectacles are Rose tinted aren't they?
 

Zehner

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Messi was the best Barcelona player on a Stamford bridge pitch.

Any
I respect him as a goalscorer and also his winning mentality but at the risk of repeating myself too many times, his play outside of that is nowhere near that of some of the best players in history.

Just consider the quarter and semi final games you talk about; his performances were nowhere memorable despite the goals. I'm not hating on him, just stating the obvious.

But ofcourse you being a Madrid fan and this being a United forum, the spectacles are Rose tinted aren't they?
I think that's not entirely fair. There aren't many players who achieved the same level of overall contribution as Cristiano during his late United and early Madrid years. People tend to forget that over his four UCL wins for Madrid. The guy was legitly among the best dribblers on the planet, scored at the same rate as Messi more or less and was a decent passer on top of it. Not many players managed such a peak.
 

Grande

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Messi was the best Barcelona player on a Stamford bridge pitch.

Any
I respect him as a goalscorer and also his winning mentality but at the risk of repeating myself too many times, his play outside of that is nowhere near that of some of the best players in history.

Just consider the quarter and semi final games you talk about; his performances were nowhere memorable despite the goals. I'm not hating on him, just stating the obvious.

But ofcourse you being a Madrid fan and this being a United forum, the spectacles are Rose tinted aren't they?
So apart from the aquaducts, the sanitizing systems, wine, the roads, decrease in crime, medicine, irrigation, improved public health, and peace, what have the Romans ever done for us?
 

Bebestation

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Messi was the best Barcelona player on a Stamford bridge pitch.

Any
I respect him as a goalscorer and also his winning mentality but at the risk of repeating myself too many times, his play outside of that is nowhere near that of some of the best players in history.

Just consider the quarter and semi final games you talk about; his performances were nowhere memorable despite the goals. I'm not hating on him, just stating the obvious.

But ofcourse you being a Madrid fan and this being a United forum, the spectacles are Rose tinted aren't they?
Thanks for proving me right.

This is what I have been saying - there are fans that decide that the best footballers are decided upon their technical ability whilst others do not because they view it as a single skill of a footballer.
 

mshnsh

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I think that's not entirely fair. There aren't many players who achieved the same level of overall contribution as Cristiano during his late United and early Madrid years. People tend to forget that over his four UCL wins for Madrid. The guy was legitly among the best dribblers on the planet, scored at the same rate as Messi more or less and was a decent passer on top of it. Not many players managed such a peak.
Obviously your memory clouds your judgement.
Let me give you his dribbling stats ar Madrid since 09/10:
3.3 per game in 2009/10 ( which is decent but not world class)
2-2.5 per game in 2010 to 2014 (average)
1 to less than 1 per game in 2014 to 2018 ( poor)
(According to whoscored )
Now consider that for him to complete his dribbles he needs acres of space to outpace an opponent and you have a player who has never really been that good at it.

As for his passing, that is probably one of his worst attributes.

His goals are his strongest and most meaningful contributions to any game he plays and that papers over every other deficiency in his game. And to be fair, the goals have been very important for his teams success if mostly not aesthetically pleasing.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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Just consider the quarter and semi final games you talk about; his performances were nowhere memorable despite the goals. I'm not hating on him, just stating the obvious.
It's not obvious to me at all. He was man of the match in the Atletico game as well as in the final. People 'remembered' the performances well enough at the end of the year when they gave him a Balon D'Or.

Your argument is built on axioms that most people simply don't share. You write that Ronaldo's 2+ goals per game performances in the knockout rounds of the Champions League, against the best opponents in the world, are "nowhere memorable despite the goals." A lot of people simply disagree with the premise that scoring 2+ goals against the best opponents in the world can qualify as a performance that is "nowhere memorable."
 

Zehner

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Obviously your memory clouds your judgement.
Let me give you his dribbling stats ar Madrid since 09/10:
3.3 per game in 2009/10 ( which is decent but not world class)
2-2.5 per game in 2010 to 2014 (average)
1 to less than 1 per game in 2014 to 2018 ( poor)
(According to whoscored )
Now consider that for him to complete his dribbles he needs acres of space to outpace an opponent and you have a player who has never really been that good at it.

As for his passing, that is probably one of his worst attributes.

His goals are his strongest and most meaningful contributions to any game he plays and that papers over every other deficiency in his game. And to be fair, the goals have been very important for his teams success if mostly not aesthetically pleasing.
With 3.3 dribbles per game he'd currently lead in the Bundesliga, would be tied second in the EPL and La Liga and second in Ligue 1 and Serie A. 3.3 dribbles per game is world class or very close to it. 2 - 2.5 is decent. So unless there aren't any world class dribbles except for Messi and Neymar currently around, Cristiano back then was a world class dribbler, like it or not.

And no, he didn't need acres of space. Watch this video if you don't believe he was a world class dribbler:

 

Iker Quesadillas

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On a sidenote, IMO goals and assists are outdated stats which stem from a time in which it was harder to track events om the pitch. Nowadays there are much, much better metrics to measure the attacking impact of a player, like xGoalChain or packing rate. I'd be very interested to see those stats for Crostiano between 2008 and 2013 since his metrics from around 2016 onwards don't look too amazing in comparison with other world class attackers.
Goals are not a statistic. They are the actual thing you need to do in order to win football matches. Football, a low scoring sport, in which goals take on massive importance.

Believing that "goals are outdated" is a great way of mathematically modelling yourself right into a ditch. A player that touches the ball once per game and scores a goal every match is going to win you titles.
 

Zehner

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Goals are not a statistic. They are the actual thing you need to do in order to win football matches. Football, a low scoring sport, in which goals take on massive importance.

Believing that "goals are outdated" is a great way of mathematically modelling yourself right into a ditch. A player that touches the ball once per game and scores a goal every match is going to win you titles.
I'm not debating facts. The goal record of a player is a statistic by definition. Don't pretend you're that simple just because it suits your point. That was an absolutely ridiculous response.

And no, he's not, a player that touches the ball once per game is not winning you games, even if he scores with said touch. That's such a dumb thing to say, honestly. If I gave you the choice, start with a one goal lead but a player less, would you take that?

Damn, that one has to even discuss such things is a testament to how far this obsession with goals have gone :D jesus, I'm not believing what I just read.
 

He'sRaldo

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It's looking more and more likely that history will not look favourably on Ronaldo, especially compared with other flashier technical dribblers.

I reckon the further he is into retirement, the more his career will be reduced to that of a simple goal poacher with longevity.
 

Shamana

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It's looking more and more likely that history will not look favourably on Ronaldo, especially compared with other flashier technical dribblers.

I reckon the further he is into retirement, the more his career will be reduced to that of a simple goal poacher with longevity.
Well only with recency bias.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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I'm not debating facts. The goal record of a player is a statistic by definition. Don't pretend you're that simple just because it suits your point. That was an absolutely ridiculous response.
It's not a ridiculous response. It's fair to point out that, by their nature, goals are different than other quantifiable parameters in football, because unlike other parameters, goals are the actual unit used to decide whether games are won, drawn, or lost.

Of course, goals are influenced by things other than player quality, which adds a bunch of noise. That lowers their predictive power, and you'd want to use mathematical models to try and distinguish between the signal and the noise. But there is another thing that helps us distinguish between signal and noise, and that is having a massive fecking signal. That's the case with Ronaldo, who averaged a goal per game in league and European competition for close to a decade. When your goalscoring record is so far away from the norm, it dwarfs the noise.

Models are always going to have limitations in their ability to fit all data, and especially outliers, which Ronaldo and Messi both are. It wouldn't be in any way surprising that a statistical parameter that seeks to sort "true" player quality from all the noise might struggle when moving outside of the norm. Ronaldo is not a 19 year old someone's thinking of signing based on his xG, we are not trying to make predictions here. He already had his career, and it was enormously successful. If a parameter is telling you that during one of his most successful periods, he "didn't look too amazing compared to other world-class attacking players," it just means the model couldn't quite get him, not that is Actually Not That Good.

If it did mean he's Actually Not That Good, then we'd have to grapple with what that even means. What does it mean that the Cristiano Ronaldo who won 3 CLs in a row and scored a lot of goals each time was deceiving us into thinking he was a great player? Am I supposed to say "damn, he got me good"? Is Florentino Perez supposed to say "never again will I allow a player to con this club into believing he's great via the dastardly method of scoring 16, 12, and 15 goals in consecutive CL editions which the club wins."? Is it bad for a player to deceive others into thinking they're good via the method of scoring goals and winning major titles? What is the course of action to take with the knowledge that the parameter says Ronaldo was actually not that good from 2016 to 2018? Sell him in 2016? Bet against Real Madrid winning the CL in 2017 and 2018?

And no, he's not, a player that touches the ball once per game is not winning you games, even if he scores with said touch. That's such a dumb thing to say, honestly. If I gave you the choice, start with a one goal lead but a player less, would you take that?
I would have to look at the odds of conceding goals when being a man down.

But I can tell you this. If you gave me the choice of starting with a three goal lead but with a player less, I'd be more likely to take that.

If you gave me the choice of starting with a five goal lead but with a player less, I'd be even more likely to take that.

The reason is because goals matter.
 
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Eddy_JukeZ

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It's looking more and more likely that history will not look favourably on Ronaldo, especially compared with other flashier technical dribblers.

I reckon the further he is into retirement, the more his career will be reduced to that of a simple goal poacher with longevity.
I think that'd be harsh, but he's never had a strong debate for best player ever IMO.
 

cyberman

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It's looking more and more likely that history will not look favourably on Ronaldo, especially compared with other flashier technical dribblers.

I reckon the further he is into retirement, the more his career will be reduced to that of a simple goal poacher with longevity.
Well thats not true anyway.
 

Zehner

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It's not a ridiculous response. It's fair to point out that, by their nature, goals are different than other quantifiable parameters in football, because unlike other parameters, goals are the actual unit used to decide whether games are won, drawn, or lost.

Of course, goals are influenced by things other than player quality, which adds a bunch of noise. That lowers their predictive power, and you'd want to use mathematical models to try and distinguish between the signal and the noise. But there is another thing that helps us distinguish between signal and noise, and that is having a massive fecking signal. That's the case with Ronaldo, who averaged a goal per game in league and European competition for close to a decade. When your goalscoring record is so far away from the norm, it dwarfs the noise.

Models are always going to have limitations in their ability to fit all data, and especially outliers, which Ronaldo and Messi both are. It wouldn't be in any way surprising that a statistical parameter that seeks to sort "true" player quality from all the noise might struggle when moving outside of the norm. Ronaldo is not a 19 year old someone's thinking of signing based on his xG, we are not trying to make predictions here. He already had his career, and it was enormously successful. If a parameter is telling you that during one of his most successful periods, he "didn't look too amazing compared to other world-class attacking players," it just means the model couldn't quite get him, not that is Actually Not That Good.

If it did mean he's Actually Not That Good, then we'd have to grapple with what that even means. What does it mean that the Cristiano Ronaldo who won 3 CLs in a row and scored a lot of goals each time was deceiving us into thinking he was a great player? Am I supposed to say "damn, he got me good"? Is Florentino Perez supposed to say "never again will I allow a player to con this club into believing he's great via the dastardly method of scoring 16, 12, and 15 goals in consecutive CL editions which the club wins."? Is it bad for a player to deceive others into thinking they're good via the method of scoring goals and winning major titles? What is the course of action to take with the knowledge that the parameter says Ronaldo was actually not that good from 2016 to 2018? Sell him in 2016? Bet against Real Madrid winning the CL in 2017 and 2018?



I would have to look at the odds of conceding goals when being a man down.

But I can tell you this. If you gave me the choice of starting with a three goal lead but with a player less, I'd be more likely to take that.

If you gave me the choice of starting with a five goal lead but with a player less, I'd be even more likely to take that.

The reason is because goals matter.
But who is arguing that Cristiano wasn't a great player during that time? Of course he was, nobody is denying that. I'm simply arguing that he was even better than that between 2008 and 2013. The only reason he won the CL titles in his latter years is that the team became much better (and Barcelona wasn't as good as from 2009 to 2013 anymore) but individually he regressed. Still a world class player, I'd have him at the level of Lewandowski now or Suarez in 15/16. On a side note: Lewandowski and Suarez only hit those heights over a very short period, maybe 2-3 seasons. I'm arguing that this is Cristiano's regressed level which he still maintained over a longer period than them (3-5 seasons) and he easily had 5 years in which he was significantly better than that.

And if we want to be really correct with our statistics, then you have to distinguish between the goal event in a match and the goal record of a player. The one thing can be defined as "the ball passing the goal line without any rule violations", the latter as "having had the last touch before the ball passes the goal line without any rule violations". It's flawed logic to assign a goal to a player to begin with since he never scores it alone, his team mates always deserve credit, too. The correct way to look at it would be to apportion the goal to the team based on who had the most influential plays in the chain of events that lead to it.

I mean, there's a reason why top coaches nowadays always go for strikers who can contribute to the build up and combination play. Icardi would score bucket lots for Manchester City, for example, yet Guardiola would never play him. And Klopp would also prefer Firmino over him. I'm not comparing Cristiano to Icardi by the way, Ronaldo's contribution levels were still world class for a de facto striker in those years. But he just wasn't the force of nature he used to be all over the pitch like in his early career.
 
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Eddy_JukeZ

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The only reason he won the CL titles in his latter years is that the team became much better (and Barcelona wasn't as good as from 2009 to 2013 anymore) but individually he regressed.
Ironically, I think Ronaldo's individual regression actually made him a better player for the team.
 

Zehner

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Ironically, I think Ronaldo's individual regression actually made him a better player for the team.
Why do you think so? I guess one could argue that he stopped taking freekicks and multiple shots from unlikely positions every game but that aside he contributed much less in terms of chance creation.

Also, I believe he developed his personality in the latter years of his career and reduced his egocentricity (at least to an extent ;)). But I doubt that had much of an effect on the team. I mean, he still had his occasional breakdowns in which he criticized team mates publicly or was angered when a team mate scored instead of squaring it etc.
 

BusbyMalone

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Safe to say the Ronaldo experiment has failed at Juve, then. He was brought in to do one thing only: win the Champions League. He's obviously failed at that. They appear to be hemorrhaging money due to the current circumstances, and he's obviously not helping with that. There also seems to be the view that they have regressed as a team, even with him in it (or BECAUSE of him in it). I think the only way they can sufficiently rebuild is to sell him on.

I suppose it was always a gamble putting all your eggs in one basket.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Why do you think so? I guess one could argue that he stopped taking freekicks and multiple shots from unlikely positions every game but that aside he contributed much less in terms of chance creation.

Also, I believe he developed his personality in the latter years of his career and reduced his egocentricity (at least to an extent ;)). But I doubt that had much of an effect on the team. I mean, he still had his occasional breakdowns in which he criticized team mates publicly or was angered when a team mate scored instead of squaring it etc.
I feel his decision making got better and his greatest strength was more amplified by playing even more central. He became a more cerebral player to me.

I do think he played less 'egotistical' and it benefited the team.

I'd rather have his 2016-2017 version than his 2011-2012 version in my team despite the latter being better individually.
 

calodo2003

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It's looking more and more likely that history will not look favourably on Ronaldo, especially compared with other flashier technical dribblers.

I reckon the further he is into retirement, the more his career will be reduced to that of a simple goal poacher with longevity.
Difficult to see his career ‘reduced’ to that. Sentiment could always trend that way, but sentiment alone cannot devalue the success he has had in his career. Just like ‘not proving it elsewhere or in international play’ will reduce Messi’s accomplishments in any way, shape, or form. The output & longevity of both ensures that.

Well, to sane people, that is.
 
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amolbhatia50k

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It's looking more and more likely that history will not look favourably on Ronaldo, especially compared with other flashier technical dribblers.

I reckon the further he is into retirement, the more his career will be reduced to that of a simple goal poacher with longevity.
Not really. Everybody knows he was extremely complete 7-8 years back and a for a decent chunk of his career too. Only blinkered people will reduce him to that. If history only remembers that then history is stupid. I do think it's a factor when judging him of course and that's one reason why he's not the best footballer I've ever seen. However you can't just forget the periods where his overall game was very good.