Cristiano Ronaldo : The Juventus Chapter

NasirTimothy

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But it does mean that he has a much smaller number of games where he hasn't scored. You get that, right? Dear oh dear. Condescending prick.
Leave the insults out mate. You were the one that started the mocking and irony and now you’re catching feelings. Not a very robust look……
 

MadMike

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Otherwise it equals, yes.
You can't have equals beyond unequal numbers, it's quite obvious. You can't say that the Belgian league is the same as the Premier League, if you take 2/3s of the EPL table off. It's a nonsensical comparison.

Borussia below Sevilla in UEFA coefficients, comfortably. Lost a Europa League final to them in 2016 too.


https://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/club/#/yr/2021

I rate Villareal better than Leipzig too.

Both Sevilla and Villarreal would be top 4 comfortably in the Bundelsiga imo and would give Bayern more of a run for their money than anyone else there. Though Bayern is clearly still a level or two above.
 

MrEleson

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Was barely a 6/10, in my opinion. Hardly a dominant performance.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....rt-Roberto-Mancinis-men-Champions-League.html

A 7 out of 10 performance according to John Edwards. But he had more praise for Ron than in the other reports.

Clear that as this game is almost 10 years old, this is still the version of CR that would torment full backs. His game changed a lot as he progressed at Madrid.
Well I remember it being a great performance so much so that Rooney tweeted about it at the time. But I guess 7/10 is a fair score.
 

thepolice123

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Re the question about performances, I asked another poster whether he’d describe CR as a football genius and he said no. I don’t think there is any other serious contender for the GOAT crown where there might be any debate at all as to whether they are a genius. Maybe Alfredo DiStefano, but that’s it.
If you are talking about genius in terms of creativity then its really just a stylistic preference.

Mainly the three biggest criteria are longevity, peak performances and achievements both team and individual.

I don't know if Ronaldo the GOAT, but he is easily in the discussion.
 

NasirTimothy

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If you are talking about genius in terms of creativity then its really just a stylistic preference.

Mainly the three biggest criteria are longevity, peak performances and achievements both team and individual.

I don't know if Ronaldo the GOAT, but he is easily in the discussion.
I actually don’t have the definition for it but I think we all know what I mean when I say ‘genius’. It’s a level of skill that is just otherworldly, freakish, alien. Maradona and Pele had it in spades.
 

thepolice123

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I actually don’t have the definition for it but I think we all know what I mean when I say ‘genius’. It’s a level of skill that is just otherworldly, freakish, alien. Maradona and Pele had it in spades.
That's just an extremely loose definition.

In a sense you're not saying anything different from the Messi camp with the overused better playmaker, better passer, can dominate a game - all three which I'm sure fulfills your definition of a footballing genius and effectively putting Ronaldo into the just a goalscorer category.

Just for clarification I do think someone like Messi is the better footballer but Ronaldo definitely belongs in the same tier.
 

NasirTimothy

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That's just an extremely loose definition.

In a sense you're not saying anything different from the Messi camp with the overused better playmaker, better passer, can dominate a game - all three which I'm sure fulfills your definition of a footballing genius and effectively putting Ronaldo into the just a goalscorer category.

Just for clarification I do think someone like Messi is the better footballer but Ronaldo definitely belongs in the same tier.
I can’t define it any better than that unfortunately, but like US Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart said on an, ahem, entirely different topic, “I know it when I see it”
 

Hashira

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He has several remarkable goals in CL with Madrid. Against Marseille some 35 yards out, a couple against Ajax, one against Galatasaray. Etc, etc. His La Liga repertoire is filled with ridiculous goals, his long shot goals in Madrid are just wildly insane. Just take a quick look into Youtube and wonder who the hell even tries shooting from the mad angles he did, let alone score them. Messi sort of used to change games by scoring and dribbling past 3 or 4 players, Ronaldo could change the game by scoring 30-40yds screamers from out of nowhere. Same end result, different ways of doing it, but equal awesomness to both. He also had very nice individuals goals in RM, I can remember that sort of karate kick against Valencia in a deathmatch in La Liga round 36 or 37, that wonderful goal against Espanyol in 20...15 where he wrecks 3 players with 2 simple, beautiful touches...

He carried a lot of his United stuff into RM I'd say until somewhere in 2014. His main attribute was always pace, and acceleration. All the tricks, the dribbling, were there for him to just gain an inch on his opponent and take off. He was very smart to understand that wouldn't work forever, and changed up. That's better than keeping on doing the same even if it's not working anymore.

I do agree that Man Utd Ronaldo was something else though in terms of pure spectacle of technical football, compared to other times in his career. He consistently made attacking plays all on his own, starting behind the center line and finishing up crossing or assisting for a shot. There's dozens and dozens of example everywhere on Youtube. When I look that far back, and look now at Juventus where 10 guys struggle to do anything with the ball for 2 or 3 minutes, it's incredible to think of how this guy just did it all on his own more than a decade ago.

As for the question asked before about calling him a 'genius', it's a word I don't like using a lot to describe people, but I'd definitely say his mind is far out and beyond most footballers I've ever seen. It has just been shown in very different ways, from young Ronaldo in Man Utd, to RM's triple Champions League. His greatest attribute is definitely his brain, so while I wouldn't use that word on him or practically anyone else in any field, yes, the guy clearly has a brilliant mind in more than just football, and I'd definitely put him up with a very short list of players that I could say felt like they came from another world.
Good post.

The term 'genius' has always been subjective. Till date there is no scientifically precise definition of what a genius is. While I think Maradona and Messi have more natural ability than Ronaldo, I agree with you that Ronaldo has the strongest brain amongst all players I have seen. Arguably his most fearsome trait is his tremendous intellect. By that I do not mean the trademark chops, stepovers, rabonas, nutmegs or other moves in his repertoire of tricks he use to gain an inch or two of advantage over the opposition. All those are not unique and have been utilised by several other players before him in the past. Rather I am referring to how well Ronaldo reads and studies the opposition's defence. Then making use of that knowledge and understanding to maximise his goal scoring chances in the most efficient manner because he has the ability to punish them with a variety of ways. Metaphorically speaking, if he's an archer, nobody had more arrows in their locker than Ronaldo did.

Ronaldo has a vast plethora of scoring and creating goals in his arsenal. He can bang in a long range screamer, unleash an unstoppable curler into the top corner, or like you said, fire his hallmark shot at unusual angle that is accurate to the millimeter and most players would not even attempt to do. All this boils down to his innate understanding. He knows what is the right method to punish the opposition and he has the skill level required to successfully execute them. The amount of shot creating chances Ronaldo makes for himself and his team mates in his prime are astonishing. Even on the occasion that he does not score himself, he could easily draw multiple defenders towards him since everyone who actually watches Ronaldo in his peak years know he was always being double-team. This frees up the space for his team mates to exploit. If he finds the percentage of his goal scoring chance lower than what he fancies, he could slip his team mate through as he is a highly capable passer. Otherwise, he is a constant menace with his superb movement and brilliantly timed runs. Take a look at how much of an impact Cavani has had for us upfront. Ronaldo's movement in his prime was Cavani on steroids.

The Oxford dictionary's definition of a genius is 'exceptional intellectual or creative power or other natural ability.' There is no doubt Ronaldo fulfils the first criteria. He has pulled off some sick self-improvised moves e.g. backheel goals through a crowded penalty box, scoring and passing with his knee and back, juggling with the back of his neck before letting the ball down and calmly slotting it past the onrushing 'keeper, quickly adjusting his body to score with an unusual part of his body. All these he managed to do out of spontaneity. Hence with regards to creative power he meets the criteria too. When we come to natural ability, this is the category where I think Maradona and Messi clearly outshines Ronaldo. Maradona and Messi has greater strength and balance than Ronaldo. They also had a better touch and close control. Not that Ronaldo is a slouch in these areas though. Of course he isn't. He just isn't GOAT tier in those aspects. When you combine all those facets together, that makes Messi and Maradona the more intoxicating dribbler on the eye. However, Ronaldo was an incredible athlete in his prime. His top pace was faster than Messi and Maradona. If your team's tactics are counter-attack, Ronaldo is definitely the most dangerous of the three. He also had the acrobatic abilities in the air with his stupid ability to leap very high and hang in the air haha. Overall there is a strong case that can be made that Ronaldo is a genius. He is a very unique specimen of footballer.
 
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RedRonaldo

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Totally agree with the above.

If we analysis Ronaldo game from the beginning and up to this moment, we can group them into 4 different phases:

Phase 1 - age 18-21
- very talented winger with electrifying pace and lots of dribbling and tricks
- among top 3 young talent in the world (Rooney, Ronaldo, Messi)
- lack of end products, show pony

(no full stats available - assume he has very high dribbling stats as his game is all about dribbling)

Phase 2 - age 22-25
- World class wing forward with high end products
- equally good at shooting, dribbling, skills/tricks, running, long shots, freekicks etc with insane athleticism
- in terms of eye test, this version of Ronaldo is most exciting to watch, as he had insane pace, and doing lots of dribbling, tricks, long shots, knuckle ball freekicks
- turning into best 1-2 player in the world (beginning of Messi vs Ronaldo era)

06-07:
- 28 goals, 16 assists in 61 games
(no full stats available)

07-08:
- 46 goals, 8 assists in 61 games
(no full stats available)

08-09:
- 27 goals, 9 assists in 60 games
(no full stats available)

09-10:
- 34 goals, 10 assists in 46 games
- 8.48 avg rating, 17 motm
- 3.1 avg dribbling
(assume he has similar or higher dribbling stats and avg rating from 06-09)

Phase 3 - age 26-30
- Truly all round all action attacker with insane stats and unreal performance level, he is simply at perfect shape with no weakness
- running, skills/tricks, shooting, finishing, heading, long shots, freekicks, pace, strength, athleticism, drive and determination etc he has it all
- At his physical peak and most productive period, can lead his team attack all by himself and score goals out of nowhere and everywhere
- start to cut down his dribbling (ever since he came back from months of injuries in 2010) and put more focus on other aspect of his games
- by far the best 1-2 player in the world (Messi vs Ronaldo era in full force)

10-11:
- 56 goals, 17 assists in 59 games
- 8.35 avg rating, 15 motm
- 2.2 avg dribbling

11-12:
- 69 goals, 18 assists in 69 games
- 8.28 avg rating, 14 motm
- 1.9 avg dribbling

12-13:
- 59 goals, 14 assists in 64 games
- 8.15 avg rating, 15 motm
- 1.6 avg dribbling

13-14:
- 62 goals, 15 assists in 57 games
- 8.27 avg rating, 14 motm
- 2.2 avg dribbling

14-15:
- 66 goals, 21 assists in 60 games
- 8.48 avg rating, 19 motm
- 1.65 avg dribbling


Phase 4 - age 31-36 (current)
- Turning into worldclass poacher and pure goal machine, maintain insane goal stats
- drop in performance level in general, getting less involved in build up play
- physically start to decline, become more reliance on his teammates for supply
- becomes more efficient and experienced, scored lots of crucial goals in big moments, exhibited high level of football intellects and was often most decisive player on the pitch
- breaking a lot of all time records, winning a lot of big trophies, true definition of success
- still mostly among best 1-2 player in the world, but the gap is getting smaller and smaller as he aging and declining (still mostly rivalry with Messi, but the era is slowly approaching to an end as they are approaching their retiring years). At age 35-36, he is still keeping up among top 3 players/goalscorer, but nowadays, Lewandowski is regarded as best striker/goalscorer instead. But 15 years at the very top, I am sure that’s a world record.

15-16:
- 57 goals, 17 assists in 61 games
- 7.99 avg rating, 15 motm
- 1.4 avg dribbling

16-17:
- 56 goals, 13 assists in 56 games
- 7.61 avg rating, 7 motm
- 0.9 avg dribbling

17-18:
- 54 goals, 11 assists in 55 games
- 7.94 avg rating, 11 motm
- 1.1 avg dribbling

18-19:
- 31 goals, 10 assists in 47 games
- 7.68 avg rating, 12 motm
- 1.5 avg dribbling

19-20:
- 48 goals, 5 assists in 52 games
- 7.82 avg rating, 12 motm
- 1.6 avg dribbling

20-21:
- 40 goals, 6 assists in 53 games
- 7.61 avg rating, 8 motm
- 1.8 avg dribbling
 
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Earvin Johnson

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I actually don’t have the definition for it but I think we all know what I mean when I say ‘genius’. It’s a level of skill that is just otherworldly, freakish, alien. Maradona and Pele had it in spades.
If i try to translate your sentiment into words, i would say that it's because when we talk about Football, the term Genius is associated with playmakers or more precisely, players who have an excellent touch with the ball. That's what is the most aesthetically pleasing to the football fan. A smooth dribble or an amazing pass will always be more impressive to watch than a poacher's goal.

So those guys with an amazing touch like Maradona, Zidane, Iniesta, Cruyff will tend to be labeled as Genius more often than not.

Ronaldo has a nice touch, but he is unable to pull of the moves and dribbles that the aformentionned players could do, and this shows in the fact that he is an average playmaker, and this is also a gripe i have with inclunding him in the GOAT discussion when you know that there are players who ally both GOAT level playmaking and GOAT level scoring.
 
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Bennz McCarthey17

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It's sickening the amount of Fc Barcelona fans who come to this thread and quite frankly talk rubbish. The Xavi's of Redcafe, what a sickening fan base, obsessed with someone who's not even a rival of their Club anymore. And the last time he played their club, he tore them a new one, as usual with 2 goals. While the genius was strolling around.
 

bakalhau

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Thank you for the post, you put it exactly the way I'd put it, I specially echo your last paragraph. I have my preference for Ronaldo over other players, but this was also true even when I thought Messi was better than him. I still liked Ronaldo just as much. I think that's fair, nothing will ever change my preference, but doesn't mean I can't be truthful enough to recognize sometimes someone else was better too.
 

steffyr2

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Not sure what this means
You were asking someone when they ever thought Ronaldo had a great game without scoring a goal.

There are a lot of players who can't score reliability (see game yesterday) and some of them look stylish while not scoring. I was just wondering who you thought was great while not scoring.

Who was the Brazilian that people used to compare Ronaldo to back when he was considered a "show pony with no end product"? Denilson? Something like that?
 

NasirTimothy

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You were asking someone when they ever thought Ronaldo had a great game without scoring a goal.

There are a lot of players who can't score reliability (see game yesterday) and some of them look stylish while not scoring. I was just wondering who you thought was great while not scoring.

Who was the Brazilian that people used to compare Ronaldo to back when he was considered a "show pony with no end product"? Denilson? Something like that?
It’s not about ‘looking stylish while not scoring’. It’s about dominating games with all round performances. Passing, creating chances, playmaking, string-pulling, dribbling, changing the tempo, moving all around the pitch, or all around half of it. Go and watch Pele’s best games (of those available), or Maradona’s, or Messi’s.

I think it’s fair to say that CR did this less and less as his career progressed. Even the game that the other fella referenced was from 9 years ago

Just to be clear, it’s obvious that you can do all the above whilst scoring as well, but it’s notable to me that CR supporters tend to make reference only to goals and scoring records when bigging him up. It’s understandable because he has so many, but what about mastery of all the other aspects of attacking football? Is he better than Maradona because he scored more goals? Not in my view.
 

MichaelRed

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If i try to translate your sentiment into words, i would say that it's because when we talk about Football, the term Genius is associated with playmakers or more precisely, players who have an excellent touch with the ball. That's what is the most aesthetically pleasing to the football fan. A smooth dribble or an amazing pass will always be more impressive to watch than a poacher's goal.

So those guys with an amazing touch like Maradona, Zidane, Iniesta, Cruyff will tend to be labeled as Genius more often than not.

Ronaldo has a nice touch, but he is unable to pull of the moves and dribbles that the aformentionned players could do, and this shows in the fact that he is an average playmaker, and this is also a gripe i have with inclunding him in the GOAT discussion when you know that there are players who ally both GOAT level playmaking and GOAT level scoring.
Imagine talking down on his dribbling. Did you start watching football in the last 5 years? Also talking down on his playmaking. You must be a WUM.
 

JPRouve

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Cristiano did imo, though OPTA didn't think so

But still, MVP award might be a bit prestigious given it's like the official serie A award. The one cris won is like, who gives a feck. Don't think most people would even know about it. Don't think most people even know it exists
I always knew italians were decent people. Individual awards in Football are baffling.
 

Bebestation

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If i try to translate your sentiment into words, i would say that it's because when we talk about Football, the term Genius is associated with playmakers or more precisely, players who have an excellent touch with the ball. That's what is the most aesthetically pleasing to the football fan. A smooth dribble or an amazing pass will always be more impressive to watch than a poacher's goal.

So those guys with an amazing touch like Maradona, Zidane, Iniesta, Cruyff will tend to be labeled as Genius more often than not.

Ronaldo has a nice touch, but he is unable to pull of the moves and dribbles that the aformentionned players could do, and this shows in the fact that he is an average playmaker, and this is also a gripe i have with inclunding him in the GOAT discussion when you know that there are players who ally both GOAT level playmaking and GOAT level scoring.
To be honest this is similar to why I don’t regard players who play for one club and country all that great either.

When you consistently hear how VDB got the benefits of growing up a player of Ajax, potentially playing for Ajax all his life whilst he plays around Ajax players that all play the same type of football to a tee - then it can be a real blind thing to think of them as a great player until you see them in a different league or for a different club with different players and styles of football. VDB looked great in the CL but he looks a different player in the PL. It’s why Ronaldo is a GOAT to me - he tries it and continues to try it with the hopes of success with a different club in a different city and with different styles of football. There is no benefit like VDB gets from growing up at Ajax all his life and understanding the total football to a the point it’s the only type of football he gets to ever really play and perfect whilst he also plays with a certain style and a certain type of player to help his game. VDB could spend the whole career at a league that is suited to his game or he could try something new and potentially fail. Different players, different managers, different countries, different clubs, different scenes, different styles of football, different languages, different pressures, different training methods to top different tactics - that’s why C Ronaldo is worth the goats.

A first touch and a dribble is just a skill of football to me. Ronaldo is nearly 40 and continues to win things that other players have struggled not to or have stopped doing.

Ronaldo is a less wonderful player to the eye (this is why some people don’t rate him) but a more wonderful player to the mentality of a human being when involving thoughts and thinking rather than just using your eyes.
 
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Gonçalo Motta

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It’s not about ‘looking stylish while not scoring’. It’s about dominating games with all round performances. Passing, creating chances, playmaking, string-pulling, dribbling, changing the tempo, moving all around the pitch, or all around half of it. Go and watch Pele’s best games (of those available), or Maradona’s, or Messi’s.

I think it’s fair to say that CR did this less and less as his career progressed. Even the game that the other fella referenced was from 9 years ago

Just to be clear, it’s obvious that you can do all the above whilst scoring as well, but it’s notable to me that CR supporters tend to make reference only to goals and scoring records when bigging him up. It’s understandable because he has so many, but what about mastery of all the other aspects of attacking football? Is he better than Maradona because he scored more goals? Not in my view.
Yeah but that's not exactly fair because you have 3 or 4 different versions of Ronaldo. If you don't count with the early year's winger version of Ronaldo, the rest of those versions had in common a freakish ability to score goals.

In the last 2 years in Manchester and the first 2 in Madrid, this version of Ronaldo was probably the most complete one and he had everything in his skillset.

I do agree that when he started to become more driven by goals / records / individual trophies, he lost part of the magic that made him fun to watch. It was a great trade-off for him since he started to win a lot more individual and collective trophies though
 

steffyr2

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It’s not about ‘looking stylish while not scoring’. It’s about dominating games with all round performances. Passing, creating chances, playmaking, string-pulling, dribbling, changing the tempo, moving all around the pitch, or all around half of it. Go and watch Pele’s best games (of those available), or Maradona’s, or Messi’s.
Just show ponies if there wasn't an end product. Fortunately everyone you mentioned has/had an end product.
 

giorno

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I always knew italians were decent people. Individual awards in Football are baffling.
I mean, even these new official awards we only know about them because the league tweets about them and a lot of people follow the league's account, or journos who follow the league's account and retweet

The AIC(player's association) doesn't even get good twitter coverage :lol:

Yeah, we seriously could not give less of a feck about it
 

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Yeah but that's not exactly fair because you have 3 or 4 different versions of Ronaldo. If you don't count with the early year's winger version of Ronaldo, the rest of those versions had in common a freakish ability to score goals.

In the last 2 years in Manchester and the first 2 in Madrid, this version of Ronaldo was probably the most complete one and he had everything in his skillset.

I do agree that when he started to become more driven by goals / records / individual trophies, he lost part of the magic that made him fun to watch. It was a great trade-off for him since he started to win a lot more individual and collective trophies though
I agree with some of this, the United/early Madrid version was definitely more fun to watch. However, I’m not sure it was a great trade off, crazy as that sounds.
 

Luke1995

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How does C.Ronaldo's technique compares to Roberto Baggio ?

I think they are two of the most technical players i've ever seen. So aesthetically pleasing.

I reckon Manchester and early Madrid Ronaldo was more pleasing on the eye than he is these days, but him and Baggio had so much creativity.
 

NasirTimothy

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How does C.Ronaldo's technique compares to Roberto Baggio ?

I think they are two of the most technical players i've ever seen. So aesthetically pleasing.

I reckon Manchester and early Madrid Ronaldo was more pleasing on the eye than he is these days, but him and Baggio had so much creativity.
Baggio was a more technical player IMO. Ronaldo is much faster and a much better athlete all round
 

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Baggio was a more technical player IMO. Ronaldo is much faster and a much better athlete all round
It’s weird how people forget what an incredible technical player young Ronaldo was. He used to have every trick in the book, great touch, control at speed, step overs, flicks and tricks. He used to be all that and no end product and now he’s remembered as being all end product and no real technical ability. It’s completely wrong.
 

NasirTimothy

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It’s weird how people forget what an incredible technical player young Ronaldo was. He used to have every trick in the book, great touch, control at speed, step overs, flicks and tricks. He used to be all that and no end product and now he’s remembered as being all end product and no real technical ability. It’s completely wrong.
I wouldn’t say he was an incredible technical player. Saying that Baggio was more technical is not the same as saying that CR was a donkey.

CR obviously had real ability and a lot of tricks as a teen, but there’s a difference between tricks and skill (as we debated on another part of this forum).

My recollection of his first couple of years is of a raw talent who didn’t always know how to use his abilities in the right way. I always remember how he was mocked on the Fantasy Football League TV show at the time for doing too many step overs. Then he took a quantum leap forward in the last couple of United years and the mocking quickly stopped.
 

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It’s weird how people forget what an incredible technical player young Ronaldo was. He used to have every trick in the book, great touch, control at speed, step overs, flicks and tricks. He used to be all that and no end product and now he’s remembered as being all end product and no real technical ability. It’s completely wrong.
Calling Roberto Baggio a „more technical„ player than Ronaldo doesn‘t render the latter bad. Give Baggio a 9/10 and Ronaldo a 8/10.
 

Oranges038

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How does C.Ronaldo's technique compares to Roberto Baggio ?

I think they are two of the most technical players i've ever seen. So aesthetically pleasing.

I reckon Manchester and early Madrid Ronaldo was more pleasing on the eye than he is these days, but him and Baggio had so much creativity.
Baggio was technically a better player.

Del Piero was technically than both.
 

Luke1995

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Baggio was a more technical player IMO. Ronaldo is much faster and a much better athlete all round
Obviously Ronaldo the better athlete although Baggio had bad luck with injuries which likely prevented his prime from lasting longer.

But 2007/2008 Ronaldo was pure mix of flair with technique...
 

Luke1995

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Baggio was technically a better player.

Del Piero was technically than both.
I certainly don't think Ronaldo is going to touch Del Piero's Juve goalscoring record if he stays the rest of his career there. That's for sure.
 

steffyr2

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So if an attacking player doesn’t register a goal or an assist, they’ve had a poor game?
I haven't noticed a whole bunch of people who thought the Utd players played well against Villarreal, but if a couple of more goals had gone in? Amazing how that will change perceptions.
 

NasirTimothy

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I haven't noticed a whole bunch of people who thought the Utd players played well against Villarreal, but if a couple of more goals had gone in? Amazing how that will change perceptions.
They were all terrible, I’m not sure a goal or two would have blinded people to that fact. Rather they would have said ‘we didn’t play well, but we got the result’. No one would have confused it for Wembley ‘68 though.
 

Hashira

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If i try to translate your sentiment into words, i would say that it's because when we talk about Football, the term Genius is associated with playmakers or more precisely, players who have an excellent touch with the ball. That's what is the most aesthetically pleasing to the football fan. A smooth dribble or an amazing pass will always be more impressive to watch than a poacher's goal.

So those guys with an amazing touch like Maradona, Zidane, Iniesta, Cruyff will tend to be labeled as Genius more often than not.

Ronaldo has a nice touch, but he is unable to pull of the moves and dribbles that the aformentionned players could do, and this shows in the fact that he is an average playmaker, and this is also a gripe i have with inclunding him in the GOAT discussion when you know that there are players who ally both GOAT level playmaking and GOAT level scoring.
Ronaldo in his younger years was very hard to stop. He gave most defenders a torrid time because his dribbling style was very unpredictable. The constant twists and turns he made, and sudden acceleration at unusual angles enabled him to skip past defenders with ease. Most defenders have to resort to blatant fouling (e.g. pulling him down, missing the ball and ended up going for his legs) to stop him. You made Ronaldo sound as if he was a speed merchant like Bale. Ronaldo was never a pure sprinter in the mould of Bale. He is fast, but speed was never his greatest strength, You rarely see him destroy defenders with raw pace like Bale did to Maicon and Bartra vs Inter and Barca respectively. Ronaldo's dribbling revolves around his unpredictability. It's easy to see who actually watched Ronaldo, and who did not.

You pointed out players who ally both GOAT level playmaking and GOAT level scoring. Yet listed Zidane and Iniesta as examples of genius. With all due respect, Zidane and Iniesta both had very poor end product despite the position they frequently take up as the most advanced midfielder in their teams. Make no mistake, they were amazing players in their prime. But how exactly do they fit in your definition of GOAT level scoring? Even the likes of Maradona could fulfil only the criteria of GOAT level playmaking. He was never a prolific goal scorer. Do you regard Maradona as a genius then? While somebody like Pogba is blessed with great finesse/artistry and impressive physical attributes. However there is a good reason why he is rarely mention as the best midfielder in the world, never mind the best player. It is one thing to possess the natural talent and ability. But to actually produce it on multiple occasions to lead your team to success requires a very different kind of mentality altogether. And Ronaldo is GOAT in this regard.

How does C.Ronaldo's technique compares to Roberto Baggio ?

I think they are two of the most technical players i've ever seen. So aesthetically pleasing.

I reckon Manchester and early Madrid Ronaldo was more pleasing on the eye than he is these days, but him and Baggio had so much creativity.
Baggio is one of my favourite players. He was a marvel to watch and one of the most creative players I have seen. He was as technically accomplished as Bergkamp but with more flair and speed, and every bit as a good as peak Henry. Baggio has the edge in terms of dribbling, while Henry was a slightly better finisher. Baggio's greatest strength was his superb anticipation of where the ball is going to move, and along with his naturally blessed agility, means he is often half a yard ahead of the defenders. He was not an outrageous goal scorer like Ronaldo is or was, but nonetheless still an excellent scorer in his own right. He finished with 21 goals (in 27 games) in 1992/93 season when he won the Ballon d'Or, which was an impressive feat given that Serie A was widely considered as the strongest league in the world then, certainly so in terms of defensive strength and difficulty to score. And he did so as a playmaker first and foremost, with scoring as his secondary task. For comparison's sake, van Basten who along with Baggio was the two best forwards in the late 80's to early 90's IMO, managed to accomplish only once in his 6 seasons with Milan. And van Basten was a classic no.9 who led the line.

His shooting was excellent, but was usually more dangerous closer to goal, usually from a distance of 16-20 metres or just outside the penalty box area. His ability to bend and chip it stood out. Ronaldo's shooting technique was more devastating and has a wide catalogue of long range goals to back it up. Like Ronaldo, Baggio was a very skilled dribbler who can take on multiple defenders at once. I'd say Baggio's dribbling is slightly better due to his better touch and control. Certainly a very close call. You won't be faulted if you think Ronaldo is the better dribbler.
 

Luke1995

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@Hashira So did you follow Baggio's career closely ? Obviously there's more footage available on Ronaldo's games. But the little i've seen from Baggio really reminded me of peak CR7 because the crowd loved them!

You can see how when they get the ball the crowd always gets a sense that something could happen.
 

Earvin Johnson

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To be honest this is similar to why I don’t regard players who play for one club and country all that great either.

When you consistently hear how VDB got the benefits of growing up a player of Ajax, potentially playing for Ajax all his life whilst he plays around Ajax players that all play the same type of football to a tee - then it can be a real blind thing to think of them as a great player until you see them in a different league or for a different club with different players and styles of football. VDB looked great in the CL but he looks a different player in the PL. It’s why Ronaldo is a GOAT to me - he tries it and continues to try it with the hopes of success with a different club in a different city and with different styles of football. There is no benefit like VDB gets from growing up at Ajax all his life and understanding the total football to a the point it’s the only type of football he gets to ever really play and perfect whilst he also plays with a certain style and a certain type of player to help his game. VDB could spend the whole career at a league that is suited to his game or he could try something new and potentially fail. Different players, different managers, different countries, different clubs, different scenes, different styles of football, different languages, different pressures, different training methods to top different tactics - that’s why C Ronaldo is worth the goats.

A first touch and a dribble is just a skill of football to me. Ronaldo is nearly 40 and continues to win things that other players have struggled not to or have stopped doing.

Ronaldo is a less wonderful player to the eye (this is why some people don’t rate him) but a more wonderful player to the mentality of a human being when involving thoughts and thinking rather than just using your eyes.
I appreciate youre elaborate write-up, though i would disagree with some points you brought up.

First i'd like to adress the first point. Why do some players succeed in some environements and fail in other ? And more importantly what can this tell us about the quality of said players ?

I believe that there is a wide variety of reasons that make a player succeed or not when they change environement, some get injury problems, some can't adapt to their new lives and there are a lot of great players who couldn't adapt to a new team or new league. Eden Hazard is the most recent exemple as he was dominating for Chelsea but is rather lackluster for Real Madrid. Though if i want to compare players like Hazard and Sané i dont know how much of an argument the fact that Sané was able to dominate in different teams and in different systems weigh in when we want to assess who is the better football player. Another exemple is Maradona, whose stint in Barcelona had nothing impressive, he was often injured and they failed to win any major trophies, and yet no one uses it to discredit him as a player. So based on this i do not think that we can draw conclusions on the quality of a player simply based on the fact that he dominated in different teams.

What i agree with is that changing teams is a risk for the majority of players. Take the exemple of Alexis Sanchez, he was dominant in Udinese and with Arsenal, Inconsistent with Barcelona and lackluster with United. I haven't watched much of him in united so i cannot talk in length on the reasons he failed to adapt but i can provide some insight on hif failure at barcelona. The thing is at that time, the team used to play with Messi on the false 9 position, so it was asked to wingers to stay as close as possible to the touchline in order to stretch the defenses so Leo could have more space to work with centrally. And this limited his capacity to make a significant impact because it didnt suit his game, but when he went to Arsenal, gained more freedom and confidence he was able to dominate.

And through the case of Alexis we can understand why a lot of players seem to underperform or on the contrary take their game to the next level when they change teams. Because Football is a sport where system is so important and some players quality just dont fit in some systems, other times like with the likes of Maradona and Hazard it is due to factors that are exogenous to their intrinsical qualities as players such as injuries.

Though, i would say that when a player is one of the very best at his craft (GOAT-ish level), they do not face the same problematic as others when it come to adapt to a different system for 2 reasons :
- Very often they are so good that even when the system doesn't suit them you can clearly see they are one of the bests.
- When teams get in posession of such players they often try to do anything to build their system around them, because they know that it is a winning move. So the player ends up dominating no matter what.

So in conclusion i would say that dominating in different teams and constantly getting the system being built around the qualities of a single player is a great testimony of the quality of said players. However it is not solid enough to be a criteria of player comparison, especially when you want to compare two GOAT-ish players.

P-S : when i said "touch" i meant more ability to be good with the ball at your feet, not just the first touch aspect. I consider it to be football's most important skill because it never goes away (as long as you are in a good physical condition), and can help you pull amazing dribbles/passes no matter the system you are playing in, which is very valuable as it means that even if the system isn't built around your strength, you will still be able to contribute into making your team better.
 

Daysleeper

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It's sickening the amount of Fc Barcelona fans who come to this thread and quite frankly talk rubbish. The Xavi's of Redcafe, what a sickening fan base, obsessed with someone who's not even a rival of their Club anymore. And the last time he played their club, he tore them a new one, as usual with 2 goals. While the genius was strolling around.
tore them a new one with two penalties :lol:

just stop