Criticism is fine (and encouraged) but there are some criticisms thrown at Ole that don't make any sense

[Wumminator]

I've been meaning to make this thread for a while. There seems to be some people who think that there are fervent Ole inners who can't take any criticism of the club. That is simply not true. What I (and others evidently) on this forum can't stand are illogical and stupid arguments. Here are some of them:

1) Ole is inept tactically
The fact Manchester United have just set a record for the longest unbeaten record is evidence of this. You simply can not go that long in the most competitive league unbeaten if you don't have a clue what you are doing. The fact that Ole has the best record against Pep of anyone who has ever played against him (as far as I am aware) should also go to dismissing that fallacy. If you want to argue that tactics can be improved, then I would love to read your posts. I don't really understand a lot about football myself. But the idea that he's completely useless is thrown around here a lot and it doesn't follow.

2) Ole is poor at changing the game
The simple fact that we have come from behind to win so often is proof that this is also nonsense. We gained thirty-one points from being behind at different points last year. That is insane. The idea that follows that Ole doesn't react quick enough or is poor at making subs is therefore silly as well. Are there instances where Ole didn't make the exact decision you would have done? Sure. Is Ole clearly understanding the pattern of the games and adapting accordingly. Well obviously.

3.) Ole has ignored the midfield problem
Not at all. He just can't solve everything at once. We are now seeing Ole assembling the most exciting United team for almost a decade. But there probably is an issue with our midfield. The problem is before this window there was also a problem with our right wing and our CB. At centre back we've just signed a world class defender (as far as we can assume so far) and means we now have a great back up option in Lindelof to rotate. Otherwise we were one injury away from relying on Baily and Tuanzebe. Sancho will hopefully prove to be an exceptional talent in a role where we literally had Greenwood and Dan James. Now of all the pressing concerns we had, CB and RW seemed to be a massive priority. Effectively we've spent 90 million this summer and upgraded both significantly.

4.) Ole has kept the deadwood around/we are fleeced for our player sales.
Now this one I get but some people have both these views simultaneously. We know there are some players in the squad that are not up to our standard. However, you simply can not get rid of these players for nothing else you will have a weaker position in the transfer market next time. I've seen some people say we should just accept a couple of million for Lingard and get him to West Ham. If you do that, you won't get £25 million for James later in the window. Ole has absolutely turfed out around 15 first team players in his time at the club who weren't good enough and now we finally look to have a squad of players ready to contribute. Lest you forget that Young, Valencia, Rojo, Darmian, Fellaini, Sanchez, Smalling, Perreira were all around the first team when he arrived and have since been deemed no longer good enough.

Again, there are issues with the team. If you want to point out we often go behind in games and make it hard for ourselves, that is fair enough. If you want to argue that Ole should have strengthened midfield rather than CB that is also fair enough, it's just much more complicated than flat out saying he has ignored it.

No-one wants a forum where people can't complain. We just want reasonable posts and some of you have clearly decided Ole is not good enough and make up any old reason to justify your opinion.

 

[Pexbo]

Great thread well said.

 

[fishfingers15]

I will back ogs as much as possible and will never want him fired but I can see easily that he is sometimes inept tactically, out thought by other managers, has ignored the midfield problem and has at least had a say in keeping Deadwood at the club.

 

[Kush]

It all boils down to him not being ultimately good enough. It's that simple, both sides go towards extreme. But, Ole isn't tactically cut out to win PL/CL, which should be our aim with this squad. He's into his full 3rd season, we've seen enough to know his limitations. Our quality of football is dross in so many matches we play, there's no consistency. It's a systematic issue, not a personnel one. Which is why no amount of signings can make up for his lack of managerial ability at the very top.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Lest you forget that Young, Valencia, Rojo, Darmian, Fellaini, Sanchez, Smalling, Perreira were all around the first team when he arrived and have since been deemed no longer good enough.

To be fair to Valencia he retired (from United). Although it can be argued that not exercising the optional year was Ole's choice but I think it was a mutual thing.

 

[Kag]

Well written thread.

Sadly, the folk you take issue with will read the first couple of lines, probably each heading, and quickly flee to the bottom of the page to repeat themselves yet again.

Nice try, though.

 

[Denis79]

Im neither Ole in or out. This season is the one that will give us the answer if he's the man to take us further or not. He has a fantastic team now with world-class players. No excuses to not have a really good season.

 

[RetroStu]

I'm not, and havent been part of the 'Ole Out' brigade, but i think the guy is soft. To me he should be telling the likes of Lingard that he has no future at the club and he needs to find a new club. I think he worries too much about the opposing teams, especially when away from home, instead of putting out the best team possible and letting the opposing team worry about us. I have nothing to base this on other than a hunch but i feel hes distant from the players, and only really talks to them as a group in team talks etc. I dont think he's good enough to reach that 'next level', and by that i mean SAF would walk this league imo with the players we have, no midield or not.

Having saiid all that, his away record is brilliant, and 'stats' wise his as good as anyone in the league, and has a better first 100 game record than Klopp, believe it or not.

So what do i know.

 

[Wumminator]

It all boils down to him not being ultimately good enough. It's that simple, both sides go towards extreme. But, Ole isn't tactically cut out to win PL/CL, which should be our aim with this squad. He's into his full 3rd season, we've seen enough to know his limitations. Our quality of football is dross in so many matches we play, there's no consistency. It's a systematic issue, not a personnel one. Which is why no amount of signings can make up for his lack of managerial ability at the very top.

Do you not think that is best to let this season play out before we judge him? The progress in prior years has been obvious

 

[OleBoiii]

Good post.

Unfortunately you're not gonna get through to those you wish to reach as they've already made up their mind.

 

[Abraxas]

I agree with all of this. I think it's a fair rebuttal to some of the more nonsensical points that are just not thought through. The problem is we get such cheap, throwaway analysis these days within football that everything is black and white. So much football, so much analysis, so much hyperbole. The difference between ourselves and the media is we don't have to justify our job through clicks and listens. It's fine to have strong opinions but they have to be justifiable and contextualised, and not every single one has to skew towards the extreme end of a debate.

Ole being inept tactically is an absolute textbook example. You can only make this argument by ignoring the contradictory evidence you have highlighted here. It is one thing to acknowledge that Pep and Klopp have very evident styles and that they are embodied within their sides, in a way that isn't so apparent with Ole. Or to credit them for their tangible success in the form of titles. But it is another thing to simply throwaway that he's clueless, a PE teacher, or insinuate that he doesn't understand the game. He very clearly does.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

1 is the only thing that doesn't make sense. The rest is true to some degree

 

[Kag]

I'm not, and havent been part of the 'Ole Out' brigade, but i think the guy is soft. To me he should be telling the likes of Lingard that he has no future at the club and he needs to find a new club. I think he worries too much about the opposing teams, especially when away from home, instead of putting out the best team possible and letting the opposing team worry about us. I have nothing to base this on other than a hunch but i feel hes distant from the players, and only really talks to them as a group in team talks etc. I dont think he's good enough to reach that 'next level', and by that i mean SAF would walk this league imo with the players we have, no midield or not.

Having saiid all that, his away record is brilliant, and 'stats' wise his as good as anyone in the league, and has a better first 100 game record than Klopp, believe it or not.

So what do i know.

I think this is what @Wumminator is referring to.

How do you know this hasn’t happened? I mean, it must have to an extent, he hasn’t started Lingard in a league game for over twelve months, to the point he sent him off to West Ham and added Bruno and Van de Beek to play in the exact position in which Lingard plays.

He also sanctioned the sale of Fellaini after two months at the club, allowed both Lukaku and Sanchez to leave, and has overseen the cull of many players who were clearly not good enough to be here.

Yet we’re meant to believe that he’s ‘soft’. It just isn’t a fair assessment.

 

[RedSinha]

Agreed.

What baffles me is that we are still undefeated in the league. If you're unhappy with our performance, fair enough, go ahead with your criticism. But calling Ole worse than Arteta or that 99% managers in the world are better than him (both real comments made by posters here) when we*still* haven't lost a match this season is ridiculous. Is it too much to ask for a measured, non-hyperbolic response after an actual hardfought WIN? Not even a loss.

Last season, I would avoid the forum after a defeat or a tournament exit for a week so as to not look at the same old toxic whining. This season, it's happening after victories. Bizarre.

 

[DWelbz19]

Agreed with the overriding point, though apart from Ole being tactically inept, I do think some of the other points do have aspects that can be rebutted with some fair points.

 

[RetroStu]

I think this is what @Wumminator is referring to.

How do you know this hasn’t happened? I mean, it must have to an extent, he hasn’t started Lingard in a league game for over twelve months, to the point he sent him off to West Ham and added Bruno and Van de Beek to play in the exact position in which Lingard plays.

He also sanctioned the sale of Fellaini after two months at the club, allowed both Lukaku and Sanchez to leave, and has overseen the cull of many players who were clearly not good enough to be here.

Yet we’re meant to believe that he’s ‘soft’. It just isn’t a fair assessment.

It happens but it doesnt happen very often where a manager tells a player he has no future at the club, and said player decides to stay.

'So Jesse, do you want to stay or go because........oh you want to stay?, er ok cool'.

I could see along those lines with Ole to be honest.

Its just a feeling i get from the way he talks in interviews. It just makes me think like that. I mean i could be reading him totaly wrong, but thats how i feel.

 

[antohan]

Agree. I get a bit frustrated with sub timing myself but appreciate there's an upside in showing players trust by holding your nerve and not being as knee-jerk as those watching.

Re: midfield, it was a bigger issue than RW to me. We've made astute signings but really need to sort this out as it affects control and transition. Problem obviously is that whether Pogba stays or not is pretty fecking relevant to what sort of midfielder you need. I blame Raiola.

We are not winning the league with this squad though, don't think so. It feels like we are always after some missing piece and age/injuries/contractual status can easily keep that being an issue season after season (again, feck Raiola, don't look forward to extending his impact via Haaland).

 

[Mickeza]

Can we add an extra one for the cnuts moaning about ‘only’ signing Sancho, Varane and Ronaldo after 18 months with no crowd revenue and how it’s a disgrace and embarrassing that we haven’t signed another CM (it doesn’t matter what CM - they go from player thread to player thread screaming for a new toy) to add to the 5 already at the club who cost £220m combined? Sancho was last years money though - Jesus wept. fecking children.

 

[Kag]

It happens but it doesnt happen very often where a manager tells a player he has no future at the club, and said player decides to stay.

'So Jesse, do you want to stay or go because........oh you want to stay?, er ok cool'.

I could see along those lines with Ole to be honest.

Its just a feeling i get from the way he talks in interviews. It just makes me think like that. I mean i could be reading him totaly wrong, but thats how i feel.

Well, stop paying attention to them. He’s relentlessly positive about every player at the club; there are several examples of players leaving a matter of days later, too.

It’s clear that Lingard is free to leave the club. The suits sort the fees.

 

[lysglimt]

Ole is a very good manager - that is beyond any doubt. The only question remaining - and that is a relevant one....is he brilliant ? Because he is up against 3 of the best managers in the world. But regardless what happens - my God what an unbelievable situation he has put us in.....with maybe the exception of those 3 managers, there isn't a single manager in the world who wouldn't want to take over at United right now. That was so far from the case when he took over.

 

[Dinghy]

Can't wait till he wins a throphy.

"Fluked it"

"Other teams where shite"

"Would never have won it without Ronaldo/Bruno/etc"

"It's just one throphy"

 

[2 man midfield]

Agreed, and it’s nice to have a positive thread actually praising the manager for a change. We’re in far better shape than we have been for nearly a decade, and some people think it’s in spite of Ole rather than because of him.

 

[RedSinha]

Can we add an extra one for the cnuts moaning about ‘only’ signing Sancho, Varane and Ronaldo after 18 months with no crowd revenue and how it’s a disgrace and embarrassing that we haven’t signed another CM (it doesn’t matter what CM - they go from player thread to player thread screaming for a new toy) to add to the 5 already at the club who cost £220m combined? Sancho was last years money though - Jesus wept. fecking children.

From the Saul thread

Chelsea showing us how it's done, not resting on their laurels of their CL win and continuing to improve their first team and squad.

 

[Rajma]

If you need any evidence that the man is tactically very weak look no further than Southampton game where Matic was dropping deep to take the ball off the CBs all game and living Fred surrounded by 5 opposition players (that’s has been a common theme whenever Matic is playing) and fail to spot such glaring weakness in our shape is some school boy stuff. The less said about our disorganized pressing which only creates huge gaps the better…I’m not even gonna start on our attacking shape in terms of passing options and angles, we now really have top players at our disposal meaning that his inability to coach us into a proper unit will only become ever more obvious to people soon.

 

[FreakyJim]

His football is outdated/shit.

He can have a world class player at every position, won't change that fact.

 

[Wumminator]

If you need any evidence that the man is tactically very weak look no further than Southampton game where Matic was dropping deep to take the ball off the CBs all game and living Fred surrounded by 5 opposition players (that’s has been a common theme whenever Matic is playing) and fail to spot such glaring weakness in our shape is some school boy stuff. The less said about our disorganized pressing which only creates huge gaps the better…I’m not even gonna start on our attacking shape in terms of passing options and angles, we now really have top players at our disposal meaning that his inability to coach us into a proper unit will only become ever more obvious to people soon.

Why did he finish second last year and why has he broken a very impressive premier league record?

 

[Kush]

Do you not think that is best to let this season play out before we judge him? The progress in prior years has been obvious

This is where I strongly disagree, any progress in 2020/21 compared to previous season is marginal at best. For starters, our quality of football was not at the level we saw for 2 months during project restart. We struggled for consistency last season too. I genuinely don't know with current Utd, which one will turn up. Will it be one vs Leeds? Or the one vs Saints/Wolves? This has been a recurring theme throughout his tenure. Just no consistency when it comes to football we play, this eventually reflects in results. We got 3 points vs Wolves, but we won't be that fortunate every time.

Folks will bring up 2nd place finish from last season, but we weren't the 2nd best in country. Just like we weren't 2nd best team in the country when Mourinho shithoused his way to 2nd (with a higher points tally I might add). Our problems were apparent that season, we had no structure when it came to attacking, and it was moments of individual brilliance which would more often than not lead to scoring, rather than a system. I see same issues with Ole. 74pts fetched us 2nd, there's only 1 season in last decade where that pts tally would have meant 2nd. And, that was Leicester title winning season. Even last year, I could argue Chelsea had their problems for half a season under Lampard, and Klopp had his with injury crisis.

I judge progress by the type of football we play, and if that leads to any silverware. This tiny "progress", if we can even call that, is ultimately not good enough given the vast vast outlay.

As for your first point, I don't see Ole being sacked anytime soon, simply because I don't think our owners have any ambition of winning the PL. So, we'll definitely see how Ole fares this season, but our performances early on don't fill me with optimism. It's same issues cropping up again. Ole is our Lampard, I'll stand by that. Folks, will finally wake up and smell the coffee like Chelsea fans did, once we appoint a top manager ourselves.

 

[esmufc07]

Sack Ole sign @Rajma

 

[Achilles McCool]

I will back ogs as much as possible and will never want him fired but I can see easily that he is sometimes inept tactically, out thought by other managers, has ignored the midfield problem and has at least had a say in keeping Deadwood at the club.

I’ve thought for a while that the problem isn’t Ole, but the coaches he surrounds himself with. He is loyal, which is admirable, but I believe we need a world class assistant instead of Carrick, Phelan, etc.
Ferguson’s best years, in my opinion, were when he brought in experienced International coaches like Carlos, Rene and others.
I back Ole and believe in him and this team, but I think that an “experienced” right hand man is what Ole needs.
Great OP @Wumminator and agree, we wouldn’t have put together this great away run is Ole was out of his depth. I’m excited for this season!!

 

[RuudTom83]

Ole just set the premiership record for away matches too! probably a fluke that Ince could of pulled off blindfolded but hey ho

It's best to just ignore 99% of the moaning on the cafe...try to laugh about the constant negativity.

Don't let them get you down, support the club and enjoy the ups and downs.

 

[Amadaeus]

How can you watch United and say that Ole isn’t tactical inept? This is where our records highlights a distorted reality. It will be the same narrative as last season where some teams with poorer squad than us seem to out perform us. This season, we have already seen the likes of Wolves, and Southampton out performance us with a team that is significantly worse than ours. If this isnt tactically ineptitude, then I am being gaslighted.

I don’t have time to highlight the other aspect, but I will try and make a short summary. With needing changing, I believe that issue was highlighted the most against Villareal, where Ole had a bench significantly better than the opposition, but refused to make the proper changes. Moreover, not switching out de Gea for Henderson was also a flaw that a tactical inept manager will make if you just look at both goalkeeper penalty saving stats. That decision cost us the trophy, so this point has definitely been a valid one about ole criticism on making changes.

About ignoring the midfield, I agree with your sentiment on this. Even though Ole has definitely prioritize signing defenders and attackers first. Which is understandable as McFred has been solid in a double pivot for him the last few season. I believe that he will prioritize midfield next summer and will spend a lot of money on finding the right cdm. Our midfield is less of a concern compared to the other position that we fixed this summer. Our squad is much better than it has ever been and even during last few ferguson years and post his time, this is our best midfield that we have had. There are no out and out deadweight like anderson, Cleverley, Gibson, retired giggs or scholes, aging Schweinstiger, and so on that made things tactical harder for the team to succeed.

 

[Wumminator]

His football is outdated/shit.

He can have a world class player at every position, won't change that fact.

Cheers for the rebuttal.

 

[Rajma]

Why did he finish second last year and why has he broken a very impressive premier league record?

We have some very good players in our squad which helps to achieve results despite manager’s limitations. As far as record goes even Ole admits that this is mainly down to no crowds as we had many comebacks that we’re unlikely to repeat had fans been in the stadiums. The two away games we had this season even though we come away with points have been a perfect demonstration of that as we have looked under the cosh for the most part with fans rallying behind their teams. He has done a good job in assembling quality players but this doesn’t change the fact that he is not fit for the job if you’re aiming for the top honours.

 

[pierrethesnack]

I mean i could be reading him totaly wrong, but thats how i feel.

A lot of people confuse his friendly demeanour with softness. He isn't at all one to shy away from making hard decisions, even cynical ones, if it's needed. He was quite ruthless at Molde, and don't forget his famously cynical tactical foul as a player which led to SAF telling him that's not the way to win. Not that that necessarily says anything about him 25 years later, but you get the point.

I'd say it's part of his strength, people keep underestimating him, often based on how he comes across in interviews. He protects the players at any cost, but don't think he's some boys scout leader in terms of how he manages the squad.

 

[Sweet Square]

@Wumminator It really isn't worth your time talking to these lot on here. They are too far gone.

 

[ivaldo]

Nicely put.

At this point, I think it's irrefutable that Ole is a good manager. You don't set the records he's set, and perform so favourably against the likes of Pep, without having something about you, particularly when the usuals were predicting we wouldn't make the top 4, but still complained when we finished comfortably second.

A genuine case can be made that he might not have enough to get us over the line. But to say he's clueless? Nah.

Whatever happens this season Oles stink here has been a success. If he were to leave tomorrow the team he leaves behind will be significantly improved from when he arrived.

 

[hobbers]

It's silly calling Ole a PE coach etc (although I think he employs them), but when it comes to point number 2, sorry but that's just drivel.

The reason we've been blown out of every competition in embarrassing/infuriating fashion under Ole is his inability to make timely changes to affect the game. Also part of the reason we had such an abysmal record against the top sides last season across all competitions. Leicester, Chelsea, Sevilla, Villarreal. Fred in the CL game against PSG. So many examples of throwing away winnable games through not making timely changes.

We come from behind so often because we don't start games well. Little or nothing to do with the changes Ole makes. It's a simple and glaringly obvious fact last season that we didn't turn up to matches until we'd already conceded.

 

[ivaldo]

It happens but it doesnt happen very often where a manager tells a player he has no future at the club, and said player decides to stay.

'So Jesse, do you want to stay or go because........oh you want to stay?, er ok cool'.

I could see along those lines with Ole to be honest.

Its just a feeling i get from the way he talks in interviews. It just makes me think like that. I mean i could be reading him totaly wrong, but thats how i feel.

You can't force a player to leave. He has a contract.

 

[Golden Nugget]

Brilliant post. Agree on all your points - the constant nagging, whining makes this forum unbearable at times.

We’ve had our world class managers; the master tacticians - how did that turn out? LVG made it to the point where I almost stopped watching football. Jose wasn’t much better. I actually look forward to the games and enjoy watching them now.

Last season, I would avoid the forum after a defeat or a tournament exit for a week so as to not look at the same old toxic whining. This season, it's happening after victories. Bizarre.

This. Except for the point that it was happening last season too. I recall the game where United bet City, go into the Ole thread and there’s a small minority wanting Ole out, after a derby win. I just don’t understand some people

 

[Andrew7582]

I’ve thought for a while that the problem isn’t Ole, but the coaches he surrounds himself with. He is loyal, which is admirable, but I believe we need a world class assistant instead of Carrick, Phelan, etc.
Ferguson’s best years, in my opinion, were when he brought in experienced International coaches like Carlos, Rene and others.
I back Ole and believe in him and this team, but I think that an “experienced” right hand man is what Ole needs.
Great OP @Wumminator and agree, we wouldn’t have put together this great away run is Ole was out of his depth. I’m excited for this season!!

If Ole decides that those are the coaches he wants by his side coaching the players on the training ground then that is a problem with the manager. If they aren't doing what Ole wants them to do, or are not producing the right results why hasn't he replaced them by now entering his 4th season in the job, doesn't make sense. Debating if the coaches are good enough is pointless, they are there because Ole thinks they are doing a good job so if they are not good enough it's a problem with the manager and his poor judgement in keeping them around.