Cutting our losses with players

Josep Dowling

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Why are we so afraid to move players on? It's incredible the likes of Bailly, Jones & Henderson are still playing for the club. Prior to this Lingard, Matic, Mata, Smalling, Dalot, Romero, Rojo. The list is endless.

Chelsea bought Lukaku for £100m last season and after one failed season he's loaned out for £10m. Okay they could achieve a fee for him next season if he does well at Inter but for now they are prepared to lose £90m after one season.

Why can't the club cut their losses and get rid of some of these players? The high salary excuse doesn't cut it with me. So many big clubs manage to shift players out on high wages. Arsenal got rid of Ozil or Aubameyang only recently. It can be done but the club clearly isn't forcing the players to move on.
 

Rhyme Animal

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Why are we so afraid to move players on? It's incredible the likes of Bailly, Jones & Henderson are still playing for the club. Prior to this Lingard, Matic, Mata, Smalling, Dalot, Romero, Rojo. The list is endless.

Chelsea bought Lukaku for £100m last season and after one failed season he's loaned out for £10m. Okay they could achieve a fee for him next season if he does well at Inter but for now they are prepared to lose £90m after one season.

Why can't the club cut their losses and get rid of some of these players? The high salary excuse doesn't cut it with me. So many big clubs manage to shift players out on high wages. Arsenal got rid of Ozil or Aubameyang only recently. It can be done but the club clearly isn't forcing the players to move on.
Because of how Utd is run, from the top down.
 

Raw

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With Bailly and Jones, they probably want to make sure they can even sign a CB before binning them. There's plenty of time to sell them, not as much to bring in a CB and get him training with us before the season starts. Henderson looks almost certain to go to Forest on loan at least.
 

matherto

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You need to have other teams that want them. Nobody does.

Unless you want to cancel their contracts which might run into legal issues.
 

Skills

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Aren't half of you preaching for us to sign young players with room to grow?

I mean you can be ruthless, but then don't preach the former. Ask the club to win now, sack managers as soon as there's a hint of underperformance. I'm all up for that model. None of this patience and time bollocks
 

Josep Dowling

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With Bailly and Jones, they probably want to make sure they can even sign a CB before binning them. There's plenty of time to sell them, not as much to bring in a CB and get him training with us before the season starts. Henderson looks almost certain to go to Forest on loan at least.
Why wait for them to be sold? Jones' and Bailly's value will be minimal with their injury record. They are not squad players because they're never fit. A new CB should be brought in and both players should be told they're surplus to requirements. The player then has a choice to move on or play with the reserves. The club should not be a holiday complex for these players.
 

Stacks

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Why are we so afraid to move players on? It's incredible the likes of Bailly, Jones & Henderson are still playing for the club. Prior to this Lingard, Matic, Mata, Smalling, Dalot, Romero, Rojo. The list is endless.

Chelsea bought Lukaku for £100m last season and after one failed season he's loaned out for £10m. Okay they could achieve a fee for him next season if he does well at Inter but for now they are prepared to lose £90m after one season.

Why can't the club cut their losses and get rid of some of these players? The high salary excuse doesn't cut it with me. So many big clubs manage to shift players out on high wages. Arsenal got rid of Ozil or Aubameyang only recently. It can be done but the club clearly isn't forcing the players to move on.
Its the number one issue with regards to transfers. We offer deadwood new contracts and they end up taking up cap space.
With Bailly and Jones, they probably want to make sure they can even sign a CB before binning them. There's plenty of time to sell them, not as much to bring in a CB and get him training with us before the season starts. Henderson looks almost certain to go to Forest on loan at least.
11 years here for one and 6 years for the other. there isn't plenty of time otherwise they would not have lasted so long. I think the offers we have for them are maybe not good.
 

Josep Dowling

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Aren't half of you preaching for us to sign young players with room to grow?

I mean you can be ruthless, but then don't preach the former. Ask the club to win now, sack managers as soon as there's a hint of underperformance. I'm all up for that model. None of this patience and time bollocks
How does getting rid of underperforming players constitute not giving young players and the new manager time? Jones and Bailly have both been injured and underperforming for more than 3 years now (and not young either). Henderson has never been given an opportunity to be number 1. If the club feels he isn't going to get ahead of De Gea then sell him and improve the squad in other areas. That's how squads get stronger. Simply holding on to all these players has stagnated the squad.
 

Grande

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Why are we so afraid to move players on? It's incredible the likes of Bailly, Jones & Henderson are still playing for the club. Prior to this Lingard, Matic, Mata, Smalling, Dalot, Romero, Rojo. The list is endless.

Chelsea bought Lukaku for £100m last season and after one failed season he's loaned out for £10m. Okay they could achieve a fee for him next season if he does well at Inter but for now they are prepared to lose £90m after one season.

Why can't the club cut their losses and get rid of some of these players? The high salary excuse doesn't cut it with me. So many big clubs manage to shift players out on high wages. Arsenal got rid of Ozil or Aubameyang only recently. It can be done but the club clearly isn't forcing the players to move on.
It’s a funny example with Lukaku, as we actually did force him to move on just a few seasons ago, whereas Chelsea can only loan him out, like we ddi with several of the players you list. Have you actually checked up on the premise of your claim, or is it just a general feeling?

From what I can gather, what United have struggled with compared to clubs like Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Real Madrid etc, is actually getting substantial fees for the players we move on. Selling at a loss is our expertise.
 

Nickelodeon

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We can't cut our losses because of the insane wages that we pay. In addition to that, we provide such a cushy work life balance that these players also lose the will to play anywhere else and achieve anything in their careers. In the last few years, we've had Rashford, Sancho, Lingard, Jones and Martial go from national squad members to having virtually no chance of playing in the upcoming World Cup.

Even now, the likes of Jones and Martial have become unsellable. But Rashford is still someone who has some hype around him. Rather than sell him when we can, we'll firstly offer him a new contract to "preserve value" and then see him become/remain as shite as he has been before deciding to sell him. Then we'll wonder why we don't have any buyers.

We live in a world where our competitors don't just buy smart and fast, but also sell the right players at the right time. Liverpool got 20+ million of Rhian Brewster who is a nobody at the moment and we're struggling to sell a 26 year old France international who has more than 100 career goals. We let these players rot that nobody will touch them with a bargepole.
 

AndySmith1990

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Obviously people have mentioned the high wages we pay which makes it difficult to get rid of players. But fans have been guilty of wanting to hold on to players too. Every player thread, from Lingard to Jones and even as far back as Anderson, there would be people advocating keeping them if for no other reason than the stock response of "decent squad player". I remember the flack that Mourinho got for suggesting we should get rid of Martial, it was crazy to see how attached people get to players who have achieved nothing here.

Top clubs are constantly looking to improve, and part of that process is moving players on, even good players, for the betterment of the team. Our mentality seems to be more about wanting to keep players for 10-15 years so we can create legends who love the club dearly, and only when things get really bad and it's beyond obvious the player isn't good enough, do we then accept it's time to part ways, at which point their stock is so low they have very little value.
 

DavelinaJolie

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You need to have other teams that want them. Nobody does.

Unless you want to cancel their contracts which might run into legal issues.
Yeah, it's easy to say players should be sold, but you need a buyer. Unless Utd buy out the contracts they may well be stuck with players.
 

WeePat

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We have players nobody wants too. Drinkwater and Bakayoko were on our books for 5 seasons because nobody would buy them. Baba Rahman is still around I think, and then there is Kepa who we can’t shift because of his high wages.

Trust me we’re not that different from United in that regard.
 

flameinthesun

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If you focus specifically on this summer then the decision to get rid of players should be made (and most likely will be made) by the manager. For the majority of these players the manager will need to spend sometime with them to see whether they should go immediately, whether they will compliment what he wants to do or whether he can live with them for another year while we focus on other areas. If I look at Martial I think he has run his course at united and should move on, but I also would not be surprised if he fit the way ten hag wants a no9 to play. Especially when ten hag has a history of getting the best out of players already written off, easiest example being Haller. If this forum was an ajax forum the majority of fans would be saying Haller is not good enough to be the main striker at Ajax and wouldn't compliment the way they play and therefore should not be signed.

So everyone getting up in arms about players not being sold is as usual with most fans very short sighted. It's exactly the same energy with new signings and new contracts. People point to other clubs getting deals done already when most of those clubs have the same manager they had last season so have continuity and already know what the manager thinks of the squad etc so have been planning for that manager's style of play and recommendations for most of last season. United are not in that position, we have a brand new manager who has not even spent one day with the players, it would be the wrong thing to just got ahead and buy the players we were scouting for Ole or Ralf. An example being Nkunku, if ten hag wants a left footed right winger in the mould of Antony or Tadic then as good as nkunku is it wouldn't be the type of player Ten Hag truly wants. Same with contracts, we should not be offering new contracts to players this summer until Ten Hag has had a chance to see the players.

If at the end of the summer we have brought in De Jong, Antony and a CB, whilst getting rid of Jones and AWB for example then that would be a good summer. Yes maguire and bailly would still be here, well guess what, if Varane and the new CB are good enough then we will have 3 very good backups. So chill out and see how the summer plays out, up till now there has been nothing to praise united on in this transfer window and equally nothing to criticize them on.
 

Revaulx

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Why are we so afraid to move players on? It's incredible the likes of Bailly, Jones & Henderson are still playing for the club. Prior to this Lingard, Matic, Mata, Smalling, Dalot, Romero, Rojo. The list is endless.

Chelsea bought Lukaku for £100m last season and after one failed season he's loaned out for £10m. Okay they could achieve a fee for him next season if he does well at Inter but for now they are prepared to lose £90m after one season.

Why can't the club cut their losses and get rid of some of these players? The high salary excuse doesn't cut it with me. So many big clubs manage to shift players out on high wages. Arsenal got rid of Ozil or Aubameyang only recently. It can be done but the club clearly isn't forcing the players to move on.
Smalling was the exception. Regularly first choice; the moment it became clear he wasn’t going to be he asked to leave.

Romero was happy to leave also, but bizarrely the club wouldn’t let him. I can’t remember the full details but the general view was that he was pretty shabbily treated.
 

MUFC OK

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Because we'd effectively be selling them for £5m and paying the entirety of their wages.
 

MUFC OK

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We have players nobody wants too. Drinkwater and Bakayoko were on our books for 5 seasons because nobody would buy them. Baba Rahman is still around I think, and then there is Kepa who we can’t shift because of his high wages.

Trust me we’re not that different from United in that regard.
You gave him a new contract last season apparently, what exactly was the thought process behind that?
 

Bobski

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Because we reward players too quickly with massive wages.

Martial, according to reports, is on £240K per week, has only scored over 11 league goals once in his career, and people have been questioning his work-rate, pointing out how static he is off the ball, since the first season he was here.
 

WeePat

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You gave him a new contract last season apparently, what exactly was the thought process behind that?
Not entirely sure. He seems to be a particular case because he’s been injured a lot and Chelsea do tend to give players who suffer bad injuries extra contracts so they can rehabilitate in peace and without worries. Same thing with Van Ginkel. Kept extending his contract while he rehabbed and let him go for free when he was ready to play.
 

clarkydaz

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Smalling was the exception. Regularly first choice; the moment it became clear he wasn’t going to be he asked to leave.

Romero was happy to leave also, but bizarrely the club wouldn’t let him. I can’t remember the full details but the general view was that he was pretty shabbily treated.
Woodward was haggling over a couple of million as a fee, so it broke down. Reports were the sqaud were not happy with it, and his Missus was on twitter having a go at the club for how they behaved
 

Andycoleno9

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Because we are not ruthless. At all. We treat players like we are some small family company. We don't push players out until they ask for it. Ridiculous stuff
 

ThierryHenry14

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We have players nobody wants too. Drinkwater and Bakayoko were on our books for 5 seasons because nobody would buy them. Baba Rahman is still around I think, and then there is Kepa who we can’t shift because of his high wages.

Trust me we’re not that different from United in that regard.
Agreed. Arsenal also has a long list of players on loan we can't sell.
 

Bilbo

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We have players nobody wants too. Drinkwater and Bakayoko were on our books for 5 seasons because nobody would buy them. Baba Rahman is still around I think, and then there is Kepa who we can’t shift because of his high wages.

Trust me we’re not that different from United in that regard.
Agreed. Arsenal also has a long list of players on loan we can't sell.
Never let a tiny amount of research get in the way of United fans having a moan about the club
 

choccy77

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You need to have other teams that want them. Nobody does.

Unless you want to cancel their contracts which might run into legal issues.
Exactly,

Our players are awful and even Newcastle said No thanks to Jesse previously (and on a free) and now Baily for only £8m

It shows just how bad our recruitment, scouting and general club management is.
 

JJ12

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Yeah we are shit at it but the arsenal examples aren’t great.

They struggled to flog Ozil and Aubameyang was more valuable to keep than what they received
 

Leftback99

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It's easier to put yourself in the position of another club, why would you want them and their ridiculous wages (which they won't want to give up)?
 

ThierryHenry14

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Yeah we are shit at it but the arsenal examples aren’t great.

They struggled to flog Ozil and Aubameyang was more valuable to keep than what they received
Nowadays for underperform player in big club on high salary to move on, they can only go on loan and with subsidize wages. If the club is lucky they may get a fee at the end of the loan otherwise the player will go on loan until contract expires.
 

Bertie Wooster

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It's understandable teams who pay huge wages will get stuck with some players who for a variety of reasons - age, injuries, not developing as expected - they'd ideally like to offload.

There's only a small number of teams who can afford those wages on a permanent deal, and they're unlikely to want to buy them either. So you end up having to loan them out and pay a lot of the wages.

The really frustrating situations are those were we already knew those players are in that situation, and yet extend their deals rather than let them leave on a free, and just face the same situation again.

Other than that, it's inevitable that clubs our size, with the wages we pay, will always have some deadwood hanging around the squad or loaned out. It maybe just differs between clubs how many they have at any one time, and how much of it is self inflicted through bad signings or contract renewals.
 

poleglass red

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we tried the Lukaku option with Martial, but his loan spell wasn't a success, which is a common theme with us. The one that was a success was Lingard's loan spell, who should have been sold then, but we held onto him, barely played him and then let him go for free. Young lad at Forest did well in fairness to him on his loan spell.
 

ThierryHenry14

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we tried the Lukaku option with Martial, but his loan spell wasn't a success, which is a common theme with us. The one that was a success was Lingard's loan spell, who should have been sold then, but we held onto him, barely played him and then let him go for free. Young lad at Forest did well in fairness to him on his loan spell.
In Martial's case it is either send him out on loan again if possible, or just like Arsenal with Ozil and Aubameyang, try to have mutual agreement with him to end the contract prematurely.
 

Oranges038

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The real problem is that the club have strangled themselves with mediocre players on stupid wages. Even if they could offload them, they'd still end up subsidising that wage at another club just to get them to piss off.

Fans are just as bad too, thinking the likes of Shaw, Martial, Rashford, McT, Fred, AWB etc just need a better manager to play better. We've seen enough of them to know that even at their absolute best which has been rare, they just aren't good enough to get Utd back challenging for trophies.
 

adexkola

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Obviously people have mentioned the high wages we pay which makes it difficult to get rid of players. But fans have been guilty of wanting to hold on to players too. Every player thread, from Lingard to Jones and even as far back as Anderson, there would be people advocating keeping them if for no other reason than the stock response of "decent squad player". I remember the flack that Mourinho got for suggesting we should get rid of Martial, it was crazy to see how attached people get to players who have achieved nothing here.

Top clubs are constantly looking to improve, and part of that process is moving players on, even good players, for the betterment of the team. Our mentality seems to be more about wanting to keep players for 10-15 years so we can create legends who love the club dearly, and only when things get really bad and it's beyond obvious the player isn't good enough, do we then accept it's time to part ways, at which point their stock is so low they have very little value.
And what on earth does that have to do with the club's actions?

Or do you think the club will make better decisions if we all agree on here that Bailly needs to be moved on? (Yes, @Skills believes so but that's a conversation for another day)
 

Thistlesoup

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Due to the same incompetence that you see at every level of the club.

Most of the squad are on overinflated contracts. Only Fernandes, Ronaldo, and De Gea actually justify their paycheck. No one else would be stupid enough to offer the dross that we can't get rid of the kind of money that they're on here.

Secondly, I suspect the same 'jobs for the boys' mentality that gets former players high ranking positions out at our club - which again, they'd never be given anywhere else - means that players like Jones become part of the furniture and are kept around.

The Glazers don't care enough to properly scrutinise what's going on, or heads would have rolled years ago.
 

r0663664

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I think Utd overpay on wages, I think only City pays almost the same while everyone pays less. We should be paying no more than what Liverpool, Arsenal or Spurs are paying. More salary are earn thru' winning titles and cups. Because we have crap management team that is why we are in this mess. I hope with the new team, things will improved including moving out deadwood.
 

laughtersassassin

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One of the biggest problems with United in a nutshell is any player who wants to stay gets to stay.

And they all want to stay because 90% of them have nowhere to go but down.
 

Revaulx

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Woodward was haggling over a couple of million as a fee, so it broke down. Reports were the sqaud were not happy with it, and his Missus was on twitter having a go at the club for how they behaved
Thanks. Thought it was something like that.

Romero was the least deserving of players to be messed around.
 

laughtersassassin

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We about to see a repeat of this with McTominay Maguire Fred etc.

3-4 years from now it'll be clear as day.
 

wolvored

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If you focus specifically on this summer then the decision to get rid of players should be made (and most likely will be made) by the manager. For the majority of these players the manager will need to spend sometime with them to see whether they should go immediately, whether they will compliment what he wants to do or whether he can live with them for another year while we focus on other areas. If I look at Martial I think he has run his course at united and should move on, but I also would not be surprised if he fit the way ten hag wants a no9 to play. Especially when ten hag has a history of getting the best out of players already written off, easiest example being Haller. If this forum was an ajax forum the majority of fans would be saying Haller is not good enough to be the main striker at Ajax and wouldn't compliment the way they play and therefore should not be signed.

So everyone getting up in arms about players not being sold is as usual with most fans very short sighted. It's exactly the same energy with new signings and new contracts. People point to other clubs getting deals done already when most of those clubs have the same manager they had last season so have continuity and already know what the manager thinks of the squad etc so have been planning for that manager's style of play and recommendations for most of last season. United are not in that position, we have a brand new manager who has not even spent one day with the players, it would be the wrong thing to just got ahead and buy the players we were scouting for Ole or Ralf. An example being Nkunku, if ten hag wants a left footed right winger in the mould of Antony or Tadic then as good as nkunku is it wouldn't be the type of player Ten Hag truly wants. Same with contracts, we should not be offering new contracts to players this summer until Ten Hag has had a chance to see the players.

If at the end of the summer we have brought in De Jong, Antony and a CB, whilst getting rid of Jones and AWB for example then that would be a good summer. Yes maguire and bailly would still be here, well guess what, if Varane and the new CB are good enough then we will have 3 very good backups. So chill out and see how the summer plays out, up till now there has been nothing to praise united on in this transfer window and equally nothing to criticize them on.
The bit about Bailly and Maguire doesnt make sense. If they aint good enough to start they aint good enough for backup and should be moved on. The salarys for the pair must be around £300k a week. A good backup should be either a cheap youngster bought or promoted from the reserves.
 

flameinthesun

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The bit about Bailly and Maguire doesnt make sense. If they aint good enough to start they aint good enough for backup and should be moved on. The salarys for the pair must be around £300k a week. A good backup should be either a cheap youngster bought or promoted from the reserves.
You think we are going to sell Bailly, Jones, Maguire, Lindelof and Tuanzebe this summer (in addition to all the other players that need selling, after having already let go of 5 players? Also you would rather have Varane and a completely brand new CB with Mengi and another youth CB over Varane, new CB competing with Maguire, Lindelof next year?

The point of the post is to be realistic, this isnt football manager, we are not going to sell half the squad despite knowing that half should go. It will have to be done over a couple windows. So if we end up starting the season with Varane, new cb, lindelof, maguire and mengi haven gotten rid of jones, tuanzebe and bailly (in addition to buying de jong and antony) then thats a good window. Not a great window but a step forward in the right direction.
 

wolvored

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You think we are going to sell Bailly, Jones, Maguire, Lindelof and Tuanzebe this summer (in addition to all the other players that need selling, after having already let go of 5 players? Also you would rather have Varane and a completely brand new CB with Mengi and another youth CB over Varane, new CB competing with Maguire, Lindelof next year?

The point of the post is to be realistic, this isnt football manager, we are not going to sell half the squad despite knowing that half should go. It will have to be done over a couple windows. So if we end up starting the season with Varane, new cb, lindelof, maguire and mengi haven gotten rid of jones, tuanzebe and bailly (in addition to buying de jong and antony) then thats a good window. Not a great window but a step forward in the right direction.
I agree with what you are saying, we wont sell them. The point I was making is they are not good starters or backups and for the money they have cost and keep paying in salarys its a disgrace the position we are in.