Cutting our losses with players

Nytram Shakes

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The fact that players seem to come here and regress so badly that no body wants them probably has somthing to do with it.
 

P-Ro

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I'll be fecking shocked if you can even get a loan move for Maguire with the receiving club paying his wages.
 

MikeKing

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We about to see a repeat of this with McTominay Maguire Fred etc.

3-4 years from now it'll be clear as day.
Fred was bought to replace Fellaini. Think about that. Once Matic and Pogba failed as a partnership we should have moved to replace them with better players. Because McTominay forced his way in from the academy it's seems we're not that thin but it's papering over a shitshow of not investing in the midfield. Like.. we haven't touched our midfield in 4 years. It's insane. Ole did great getting second place a team consisting of Pereira, Lingard etc.

I think we should keep Maguire and Lindelof short term but get players in immediately who are capable of replacing them, then someone like Newcastle or Everton might want to buy them, and they will want to move because it's that, the bench, or in the training room with Jones.
 

ThanksBoss26

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I didn’t expect to see to many leave before pre-season training started though I hoped it’d be more than just Henderson on loan which seems like it’ll be the only one (bar the out of contract lot). I think most will be thinking they may as well hold fire and take a chance on impressing the new manager and forcing their way into his plans. Law of averages maybe says they’ll be a couple of them we expect to go who he might find a use for - perhaps some of the younger fringe players; Laird, Chong, Levitt, Amad, Pellistri and the like. Once the manager himself tells players they’re not in his plans, I’d hope to see movement out then, though of course we might well run into the usual problems. Either way, still expect to see a fair few more out the door come the end of August. There needs to be anyway.
 

Bastian

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It's a shame we're not more aggressive. The club certainly briefed about AWB being available for transfer and all it seemed to garner was a rumour of a frivolous loan bid from Palace. However, the players who won't be playing and are still here like Bailly and Jones probably need to be aggressively shifted. I'd appreciate a quote from someone within the hierarchy saying it's best for them to leave so they can continue their careers - then we can either sell them for pittance or subsidise their wages (covered by the fees).

With Pereira, we could be creative and land one or two promising youngsters once they turn 18 and wave any fee.

Henderson seems to be off, and he's the one player we can be sure actually wants to play football.
 

Gandalf

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I'll be fecking shocked if you can even get a loan move for Maguire with the receiving club paying his wages.
He is not for sale so get your Rudiger replacement elsewhere pal. Captain Fantastic is going to treat Premier League attackers like Greek Policemen next season just you watch.

Seriously though. It has already been reported that ETH plans on using Maguire and Varane as his starting CB pair for the upcoming season and so if that upsets you it is best you let it out now because it won't be changing for another season at least.
 

charlenefan

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Why are we so afraid to move players on? It's incredible the likes of Bailly, Jones & Henderson are still playing for the club. Prior to this Lingard, Matic, Mata, Smalling, Dalot, Romero, Rojo. The list is endless.

Chelsea bought Lukaku for £100m last season and after one failed season he's loaned out for £10m. Okay they could achieve a fee for him next season if he does well at Inter but for now they are prepared to lose £90m after one season.

Why can't the club cut their losses and get rid of some of these players? The high salary excuse doesn't cut it with me. So many big clubs manage to shift players out on high wages. Arsenal got rid of Ozil or Aubameyang only recently. It can be done but the club clearly isn't forcing the players to move on.
Using Chelsea writing off 100m player they bought 12 months ago doesn't help your point at all

Plus we have shown a ruthless side, Ole wasted no time getting rid of Lukaku (and recouping most of the money we paid for him unlike Chelsea) and he got Sanchez off the books as well

Transfer window ain't closed either, still plenty of time for the likes of Jones and Bailly to be moved on. I agree with the club not selling Henderson on the cheap when we live in a world where Ramsdale is being sold for the price he was 12 months ago
 

lex talionis

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The root of the problem is our overconfidence in ability of the players we bring in, such as Bailly and Jones. Bailly was our best defender in his first season at OT but he's been a bust since then. If I'm not mistaken we gave him a huge wage increase, so now that we've realized he's a bust we can't sell him. Same for Jones, who did put in some great performances but we know about his record as well. One could add Martial as a boom gone bust and somewhere along the way we gave him a huge wage increase. We let these players in the door and after a few solid performances we shower them with cash, then they collapse and then we can't offload them because of their wages. Not stellar business operating procedure.
 

R'hllor

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Because we are run as franchize, examples if true like AWB, jump from 10 to 80k, again if true, why, i mean wtf, time ago players were ready to take little cut just to join specific clubs.

Also, this place in general shouldnt complain, the amount of drivel and type of posts here after players like Matic and similar got their contract extensions showing how whole thing is mental.
 

Ole'sgunnarwin

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Obviously people have mentioned the high wages we pay which makes it difficult to get rid of players. But fans have been guilty of wanting to hold on to players too. Every player thread, from Lingard to Jones and even as far back as Anderson, there would be people advocating keeping them if for no other reason than the stock response of "decent squad player". I remember the flack that Mourinho got for suggesting we should get rid of Martial, it was crazy to see how attached people get to players who have achieved nothing here.

Top clubs are constantly looking to improve, and part of that process is moving players on, even good players, for the betterment of the team. Our mentality seems to be more about wanting to keep players for 10-15 years so we can create legends who love the club dearly, and only when things get really bad and it's beyond obvious the player isn't good enough, do we then accept it's time to part ways, at which point their stock is so low they have very little value.
That's very true, especially with Pogba. The people on here defending him was insane when he's clearly been a bad influence and has a questionable attitude. Souness sussed him out early on and I've no idea how United fans were defending him.
 

Abraxas

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Why are we so afraid to move players on? It's incredible the likes of Bailly, Jones & Henderson are still playing for the club. Prior to this Lingard, Matic, Mata, Smalling, Dalot, Romero, Rojo. The list is endless.

Chelsea bought Lukaku for £100m last season and after one failed season he's loaned out for £10m. Okay they could achieve a fee for him next season if he does well at Inter but for now they are prepared to lose £90m after one season.

Why can't the club cut their losses and get rid of some of these players? The high salary excuse doesn't cut it with me. So many big clubs manage to shift players out on high wages. Arsenal got rid of Ozil or Aubameyang only recently. It can be done but the club clearly isn't forcing the players to move on.
Surely the difference between Ozil, Aubamayeng, Lukaku and the likes of Jones and Bailly is clear.

Ozil was at some point a fantastic footballer. In the discussion for being one of the best in his position in the world. Aubamayeng is a goalscorer. Lukaku scored goals for fun in Italy.

Jones and Bailly have been injured for about a decade if you add up their combined absences. In what possible universe would they appeal to a buyer? They're not good and they're not fit and they've got certain expectations. Put yourself at the helm of a football club and tell me why you would buy Phil Jones over a young championship centre back?

The only chance is probably paying them off or loaning them out on favourable terms to whoever takes them. Neither is going to do anything great for our finances so it's not worth getting too angry about.
 

cyril C

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Bad example on Lukaku, because Chelsea is not going to let him go for free and lose 90m. Apart from Player's own wish, the only reason is no point having a 100m player spending 90% time on bench.

Bailey, Lingard, Matic and Mata are (relatively) cheap as squad player. Criticism on Jones should be on decision on why renew his contract N years ago if you have doubt on his fitness, why didn't we cut our loss N years ago.

Renew contract on Martial could be difficult to criticise, because he looks good back then, same on Rashford.

IMO, the OBVIOUS complain is on AWB, why did we recruit someone so poor on delivery. Plus Telles and Dalot, who are clearly not up to standard.

You can add Darmain as well, why did we recruit someone so slow.
 

Tyrion

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With Bailly and Jones, they probably want to make sure they can even sign a CB before binning them. There's plenty of time to sell them, not as much to bring in a CB and get him training with us before the season starts. Henderson looks almost certain to go to Forest on loan at least.
Agreed. No point in selling ok squad players with no-one to improve on them with. Henderson is a backup keeper though which is different.
 

Josep Dowling

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Surely the difference between Ozil, Aubamayeng, Lukaku and the likes of Jones and Bailly is clear.

Ozil was at some point a fantastic footballer. In the discussion for being one of the best in his position in the world. Aubamayeng is a goalscorer. Lukaku scored goals for fun in Italy.

Jones and Bailly have been injured for about a decade if you add up their combined absences. In what possible universe would they appeal to a buyer? They're not good and they're not fit and they've got certain expectations. Put yourself at the helm of a football club and tell me why you would buy Phil Jones over a young championship centre back?

The only chance is probably paying them off or loaning them out on favourable terms to whoever takes them. Neither is going to do anything great for our finances so it's not worth getting too angry about.
My point isn’t about making money from selling them. They have no residual value anymore. But they could certainly be replaced with fit players. Squad players could be acquired via free transfers. Anything is better than having 2 CBs injured for 3 seasons. When we have injuries to our starting players half the time we have no one to replace them because of this issue.
 

izak

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I have a feeling that under ETH and the new structure things like contract renewal would change, players who haven't done much would be offer less than their former paycheck the Pogba situation is almost a good example, then if they refuse they'll either be sold or let go on a free, and I also hope and believe when signing new players we'll be offering them wage with the thought of if they don't make it under a year or two we'll be looking to sell them off to whosoever can take up their wage.
 

wolvored

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We need to move on with crazy wages. Sancho for example, we gave him £350-375k a week, depending on source, yet he was on £100k at dortmund. If we had offered say £150k he would still have come, and if not then was he really the player we want? Say he flops this season, hes another we wont be able to shift, or loan as we would be paying £250-300k a week to supplement his wages.
 

Lentwood

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Basically for the same reason(s) we have talked about for the last decade. Our club lacks (or lacked, let's see) footballing knowledge at the top-end.

Another classic example of Liverpool getting it spot-on recently with Mane. Has been absolutely fantastic for them, but now seemingly wants one last big contract at 29.

United would panic, offer him £350K per week for five seasons, smugly discuss this in the press, then watch as his form slowly deteriorated with age until the point we're left with yet another expensive bench-warmer.

Liverpool sold him for basically what they paid for him after getting an unbelievable return in terms of performances and have moved on already by bringing in Diaz and Nunez.

SAF did this for us for many years, identifying when a players' time was up and moving them on. It goes against what the fans want and what the press believe are good decisions, but in the long-run, SAF and the lads at Liverpool keep being proved right.
 

Bestietom

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If we buy well this transfer window (5/6 Players) then we are on the right track. We must then follow up for next 2/3 windows. This includes January window also, as I think we have a better chance of gettnig Timber after WC.
This Window we need:- CB, RB, 2 Midfielders, RWF, CF.
 

roonster09

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Basically for the same reason(s) we have talked about for the last decade. Our club lacks (or lacked, let's see) footballing knowledge at the top-end.

Another classic example of Liverpool getting it spot-on recently with Mane. Has been absolutely fantastic for them, but now seemingly wants one last big contract at 29.

United would panic, offer him £350K per week for five seasons, smugly discuss this in the press, then watch as his form slowly deteriorated with age until the point we're left with yet another expensive bench-warmer.

Liverpool sold him for basically what they paid for him after getting an unbelievable return in terms of performances and have moved on already by bringing in Diaz and Nunez.

SAF did this for us for many years, identifying when a players' time was up and moving them on. It goes against what the fans want and what the press believe are good decisions, but in the long-run, SAF and the lads at Liverpool keep being proved right.
On the other hand, ManCity offered 30 year old KdB huge contract and he has been superb for them, again played key role in winning one more league title.

Madrid kept paying good money to Benzema, Modric, Kroos, Ronaldo, Ramos till they were in their mid 30s and they won many trophies.

There is nothing great in selling 29 year old player who has been awesome, player rejected the contract and wanted to move, Liverpool didn't want to give big contract as their wage budget was already so high and they had to give many players same contract. Apart from all that, we don't know if Mane wanted contract or wanted transfer.

What we do shouldn't be compared to other clubs, we are poor at everything, like offering contracts to poor players when its time to sell them or release them.
 

Revaulx

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Basically for the same reason(s) we have talked about for the last decade. Our club lacks (or lacked, let's see) footballing knowledge at the top-end.

Another classic example of Liverpool getting it spot-on recently with Mane. Has been absolutely fantastic for them, but now seemingly wants one last big contract at 29.

United would panic, offer him £350K per week for five seasons, smugly discuss this in the press, then watch as his form slowly deteriorated with age until the point we're left with yet another expensive bench-warmer.

Liverpool sold him for basically what they paid for him after getting an unbelievable return in terms of performances and have moved on already by bringing in Diaz and Nunez.

SAF did this for us for many years, identifying when a players' time was up and moving them on. It goes against what the fans want and what the press believe are good decisions, but in the long-run, SAF and the lads at Liverpool keep being proved right.
Bang on!

And yet we accuse Liverpool of being the sentimental club.

Edit: @roonster09 makes a good point as well. Other clubs who do renew older players’ contracts don’t all see the huge drop off in form that seems inevitable with our lot. Keeping players hungry isn’t just down to money.
 

Lentwood

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Bang on!

And yet we accuse Liverpool of being the sentimental club.

Edit: @roonster09 makes a good point as well. Other clubs who do renew older players’ contracts don’t all see the huge drop off in form that seems inevitable with our lot. Keeping players hungry isn’t just down to money.
Historically we have given those contracts out for the wrong reasons though. Rooney was a classic example. SAF knew a player with his body-type, who started so early, would start to decline and we ought to cash-in. SAF teed up his exit and the club foolishly gave him a massive new deal for a bit of PR.

Likewise, DDG - who else would have paid him what we offered? Nobody. We need to be braver. Liverpool play it perfectly because they do it on their terms, from a position of strength. We negotiate from desperation/weakness and get played.

I am hopeful the latest Pogba saga is an indicator we have learnt something.
 

Real Name

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Why are we so afraid to move players on? It's incredible the likes of Bailly, Jones & Henderson are still playing for the club. Prior to this Lingard, Matic, Mata, Smalling, Dalot, Romero, Rojo. The list is endless.

Chelsea bought Lukaku for £100m last season and after one failed season he's loaned out for £10m. Okay they could achieve a fee for him next season if he does well at Inter but for now they are prepared to lose £90m after one season.

Why can't the club cut their losses and get rid of some of these players? The high salary excuse doesn't cut it with me. So many big clubs manage to shift players out on high wages. Arsenal got rid of Ozil or Aubameyang only recently. It can be done but the club clearly isn't forcing the players to move on.
Not sure Chelsea being prepared to lose 90 million is a good example.
 

roonster09

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Bang on!

And yet we accuse Liverpool of being the sentimental club.

Edit: @roonster09 makes a good point as well. Other clubs who do renew older players’ contracts don’t all see the huge drop off in form that seems inevitable with our lot. Keeping players hungry isn’t just down to money.
We have to take player by player case, instead of going with blanket "29/30 year old" player rule.

Lewa, Benzema, KdB, are among top 10 players in Europe and all of them are 30+ year old players, every one them are on very good wages too.

As long as we are not winning trophies, people will always come up with silly reasons to conclude "why we are not winning titles "
 

Cafer007

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Better we bring in players like Timber/Antony for around 100K a week and build our performances to reach the respected level.

Liverpool brought in Nunez for 130K a week (so we should stick to that range for some time rather giving obscene amount of money like 350K+ to players like DDG/Sancho.

If it was UTD, we could have offered Nunez around 200K+ easily and paying 350K a week to the keeper, This should change.

350K a week on Varane seems reasonable because we got him on cheap because of his contract situation so we could give some of that savings on wages but I prefer something like signing bonus in these situations by keeping a low salary so others wouldn't upset too much.

To sign few star players like Dejong we need to match his current 350K salary at Barca so I prefer to include easy bonuses or big signing fee but put him on low wages like 200K a week to keep the balance with in the team.
 

Ludens the Red

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On the other hand, ManCity offered 30 year old KdB huge contract and he has been superb for them, again played key role in winning one more league title.

Madrid kept paying good money to Benzema, Modric, Kroos, Ronaldo, Ramos till they were in their mid 30s and they won many trophies.

There is nothing great in selling 29 year old player who has been awesome, player rejected the contract and wanted to move, Liverpool didn't want to give big contract as their wage budget was already so high and they had to give many players same contract. Apart from all that, we don't know if Mane wanted contract or wanted transfer.

What we do shouldn't be compared to other clubs, we are poor at everything, like offering contracts to poor players when its time to sell them or release them.
Yeah, was thinking this in response to the post you quoted.
You take it case by case and look at the make up of the player. Mentality and attitude being crucial. Imagine we got rid of Giggs and Scholes when they turned 30.
Mane is a huge loss for Liverpool and there’s no way this is a good move for them.
 

izak

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Basically for the same reason(s) we have talked about for the last decade. Our club lacks (or lacked, let's see) footballing knowledge at the top-end.

Another classic example of Liverpool getting it spot-on recently with Mane. Has been absolutely fantastic for them, but now seemingly wants one last big contract at 29.

United would panic, offer him £350K per week for five seasons, smugly discuss this in the press, then watch as his form slowly deteriorated with age until the point we're left with yet another expensive bench-warmer.

Liverpool sold him for basically what they paid for him after getting an unbelievable return in terms of performances and have moved on already by bringing in Diaz and Nunez.

SAF did this for us for many years, identifying when a players' time was up and moving them on. It goes against what the fans want and what the press believe are good decisions, but in the long-run, SAF and the lads at Liverpool keep being proved right.
Good post this! SAF was an absolute genius at running this beast of a football club.
 

roonster09

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Yeah, was thinking this in response to the post you quoted.
You take it case by case and look at the make up of the player. Mentality and attitude being crucial. Imagine we got rid of Giggs and Scholes when they turned 30.
Mane is a huge loss for Liverpool and there’s no way this is a good move for them.
Exactly, for every Rooney there are examples like Lewa, Benzema who are exceptional in their 30s. It should be case by case, rather than blanket approach.
 

Acaipoke

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Exactly, for every Rooney there are examples like Lewa, Benzema who are exceptional in their 30s. It should be case by case, rather than blanket approach.
This is where a good medical team comes in handy. A thorough medical check and analysis would help to make a better decision on extending the contracts of the older players.
 

croadyman

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Still sickens me we are forced to try and cut losses with players due to them overpaid on big contracts
 

wolvored

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Better we bring in players like Timber/Antony for around 100K a week and build our performances to reach the respected level.

Liverpool brought in Nunez for 130K a week (so we should stick to that range for some time rather giving obscene amount of money like 350K+ to players like DDG/Sancho.

If it was UTD, we could have offered Nunez around 200K+ easily and paying 350K a week to the keeper, This should change.

350K a week on Varane seems reasonable because we got him on cheap because of his contract situation so we could give some of that savings on wages but I prefer something like signing bonus in these situations by keeping a low salary so others wouldn't upset too much.

To sign few star players like Dejong we need to match his current 350K salary at Barca so I prefer to include easy bonuses or big signing fee but put him on low wages like 200K a week to keep the balance with in the team.
If we offered up to lets say 50k extra to what a player was getting from his last club, surely that should be enough? Sancho was on 100k, we were the only club in for him, offer 150k. If he turns it down would prove he is only coming for the money. Who agreed to pay him 350/375k a week.