Gaming Cyberpunk 2077 (PC, PS4, Xbox One, Stadia) | 18th Dec: Delisted from PSN, Sony offering refunds. Xbox offering refunds too, still listed on store.

SilentWitness

ShoelessWitness
Staff
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
18,106
Location
Scotland
Supports
Everton
Game has finally broken me until it is next patched. I’m fed up of having to reload missions to try and perfect them because of poor loading speeds, glitches, frame rate drops, invisible enemies, characters looking like they were created by a designer using a potato. Feck it.
 

Lay

Incorrectly predicted the 2020 US Election
Joined
Jan 29, 2013
Messages
10,779
Location
England
that reminds me of The Division. Loved that game - then they tried to “balance” the game and just made NPCs take truckloads more bullets.
The Division was horrible for that. Headshots would mean feck all, just have to shoot until you’re empty. That was their way of making it difficult :lol:
 

Kaos

Full Member
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
26,034
Location
Ginseng Strip
Its a pity missions dont scale tbh. I have about hundred gigs and other missions left but they're all low or very low difficulty.
I disagree, I think its a cardinal sin for RPGs to have enemies scale with you. It completely takes away the tension of stumbling across a high level area, or coming back to enemies that have kick your arse hours back only to satisfyingly hand their arses to them once you've levelled up. I hated it in Oblivion, it was ridiculous having critters spam fire attacks at you just because you were high level.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

Full Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
4,443
I disagree, I think its a cardinal sin for RPGs to have enemies scale with you. It completely takes away the tension of stumbling across a high level area, or coming back to enemies that have kick your arse hours back only to satisfyingly hand their arses to them once you've levelled up. I hated it in Oblivion, it was ridiculous having critters spam fire attacks at you just because you were high level.
I agree with you, I prefer this kind of levelling system. You have to have tangible rewards for your efforts and that includes coming back to previous areas and trouncing everyone. The key thing is to make sure that in other parts of the game you still get a challenge and having got 80 hours deep into Cyberpunk I can say that there are challenges even at the end of the game.
 

Redlambs

Creator of the Caftards comics
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
36,974
Location
Officially the best poker player on RAWK. Your cas
I disagree, I think its a cardinal sin for RPGs to have enemies scale with you. It completely takes away the tension of stumbling across a high level area, or coming back to enemies that have kick your arse hours back only to satisfyingly hand their arses to them once you've levelled up. I hated it in Oblivion, it was ridiculous having critters spam fire attacks at you just because you were high level.
I agree with you, I prefer this kind of levelling system. You have to have tangible rewards for your efforts and that includes coming back to previous areas and trouncing everyone. The key thing is to make sure that in other parts of the game you still get a challenge and having got 80 hours deep into Cyberpunk I can say that there are challenges even at the end of the game.
But that's the problem, it's about how they level not that they do. It's great to have higher level areas, that's not what we are saying to take away! But the scaling should never be flat, it should never merely be them adjusting to your level and just becoming bullet sponges, that absolutely terrible and cheap design.

The Witcher 3 was notorious for a terrible levelling system (Oblivion was too but for two different reasons) especially the weapons found for example. You can still have the player feeling all powerful without the levelling leaving behind the joy of finding new weapons to use and a challenge, it's a case of balancing it. Cyberpunk would have been the ideal game to use a system where the level doesn't just scale, but the enemies adjust tactics to suit the player depending on the build, for example. But obviously thanks to the many huge flaws that won't be happening on any great scale.

Like I say, there's an in between to be found. Flat scaling is trash, but so is bullet sponging at high levels.
 

Kaos

Full Member
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
26,034
Location
Ginseng Strip
But that's the problem, it's about how they level not that they do. It's great to have higher level areas, that's not what we are saying to take away! But the scaling should never be flat, it should never merely be them adjusting to your level and just becoming bullet sponges, that absolutely terrible and cheap design.

The Witcher 3 was notorious for a terrible levelling system (Oblivion was too but for two different reasons) especially the weapons found for example. You can still have the player feeling all powerful without the levelling leaving behind the joy of finding new weapons to use and a challenge, it's a case of balancing it. Cyberpunk would have been the ideal game to use a system where the level doesn't just scale, but the enemies adjust tactics to suit the player depending on the build, for example. But obviously thanks to the many huge flaws that won't be happening on any great scale.

Like I say, there's an in between to be found. Flat scaling is trash, but so is bullet sponging at high levels.
The soulsbourne series has it spot on without even needing a scaling system of sorts. Yes a tough enemy can be overcome through the sheer attrition of of grinding your stats, but they will always still posses enough of a challenge to two shot complacent players.

I can’t remember what game it was, but there was one that tackled higher difficulty in a unique way. Enemies would kill you easier, but they themselves would also be easier to kill. It was an indiscriminate high damage, low defence threshold for both player and enemies alike. It really cultivated a high risk high reward tension which is what higher difficulties should do. The same logic should really be experimented with in RPGs to circumvent the bullet sponge tedium.
 

Redlambs

Creator of the Caftards comics
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
36,974
Location
Officially the best poker player on RAWK. Your cas
The soulsbourne series has it spot on without even needing a scaling system of sorts. Yes a tough enemy can be overcome through the sheer attrition of of grinding your stats, but they will always still posses enough of a challenge to two shot complacent players.

I can’t remember what game it was, but there was one that tackled higher difficulty in a unique way. Enemies would kill you easier, but they themselves would also be easier to kill. It was an indiscriminate high damage, low defence threshold for both player and enemies alike. It really cultivated a high risk high reward tension which is what higher difficulties should do. The same logic should really be experimented with in RPGs to circumvent the bullet sponge tedium.
The souls games have got letting the player learn and get better through as much skill as any levelling down to a tee, but also the way the combat/weapons work means everything is viable.

Honestly I'd start be dropping the whole giving weapons levels/colours, loot games have their place but the players never really try other weapons and ways to play. BotW tried to counter that with the weapon degrade which was meant to encourage play styles and learning, but obviously they went too hard. If the weapons had no levels, but you could upgrade/add attachments to suit your style, that would help massively. It then becomes less about any enemy level and more about how you want to play.

I think a combination of the above, and having the AI learn a bit (doesn't even have to be too intelligent, just changes to their style when you fight them again) so when you go back to those areas you'll still likely stomp with your new found powers/skills but still have to pay attention and use what you've learned, rather than your own dumb levelling/perks doing all the work.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

Full Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2015
Messages
4,443
But that's the problem, it's about how they level not that they do. It's great to have higher level areas, that's not what we are saying to take away! But the scaling should never be flat, it should never merely be them adjusting to your level and just becoming bullet sponges, that absolutely terrible and cheap design.

The Witcher 3 was notorious for a terrible levelling system (Oblivion was too but for two different reasons) especially the weapons found for example. You can still have the player feeling all powerful without the levelling leaving behind the joy of finding new weapons to use and a challenge, it's a case of balancing it. Cyberpunk would have been the ideal game to use a system where the level doesn't just scale, but the enemies adjust tactics to suit the player depending on the build, for example. But obviously thanks to the many huge flaws that won't be happening on any great scale.

Like I say, there's an in between to be found. Flat scaling is trash, but so is bullet sponging at high levels.
To be fair you are right here and I’d prefer that but we don’t seem to be at a stage where that happens in many open world games. The best system I can think of is Skyrim where the enemy types change. At level one you fight just bandits in a camp, by level 20 they introduce bandit thugs and by end game you come up against multiple bandit leaders who all scale in challenge while at they same time making you feel super powerful when you encounter a lowly ‘bandit’. They also changed the asthetic so the higher level enemies appeared to be better armed. It would have been cool if cyberpunk did something like that with higher level enemies having clear cyberwear and quick hack advantages.

However, If it comes down to a choice between pure scaling and no scaling I would always pick the scaling method of Cyberpunk; where you level up and become over levelled in certain areas, compared to the one in AC Odyssey; where you just never feel you progress as the enemies are always within 2-3 levels of the player character. Yes it maintains the challenge but it all feels so artificial.
 

caid

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Messages
5,185
Location
Dublin
I disagree, I think its a cardinal sin for RPGs to have enemies scale with you. It completely takes away the tension of stumbling across a high level area, or coming back to enemies that have kick your arse hours back only to satisfyingly hand their arses to them once you've levelled up. I hated it in Oblivion, it was ridiculous having critters spam fire attacks at you just because you were high level.
There must be some happy medium. Being completely over leveled for this much content feels wasteful.
I think i disagree regardless. Stumbling into a high level area and dieing instantly isn't that interesting to me. I dont need to be borderline immortal against low level enemies to feel like im progressing. I can feel powerful against dangerous enemies. People talk shit about Oblivion but Skyrim basically addressed the weaknesses from that game and was flat out better than any game with set levels
 

KirkDuyt

Full Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2015
Messages
13,880
Location
Dutchland
Supports
Feyenoord
I love the rping part of level scaling. The mighty Dragonborne, slayer of dragons and toppler of empires, slain by a random crab on the bank of some shitty little stream.
 

Champ

Full Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2017
Messages
2,434
I am finding this game insanely difficult.
Some missions are just ridiculous, am currently trying to do Space Oddity and just get killed in one shot every fecking time.
I just be missing something as I get killed so damn easy every time...
 

Mr Pigeon

baldy fatty bum bum
Scout
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
Messages
15,736
Location
Staging a 'coo' against my enemies
I am finding this game insanely difficult.
Some missions are just ridiculous, am currently trying to do Space Oddity and just get killed in one shot every fecking time.
I just be missing something as I get killed so damn easy every time...
What level are you?

If you really want the Space Oddity mission done now then...

get close enough to tag all the enemies and then look for a building nearby that has turrets on top of it. There's mines scattered about and some dead folk but when you go in the place around the back there's a computer to access the turrets. It takes time but eventually you'll kill the guards at the drop point
 

PhilQ

Full Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2016
Messages
684
I am finding this game insanely difficult.
Some missions are just ridiculous, am currently trying to do Space Oddity and just get killed in one shot every fecking time.
I just be missing something as I get killed so damn easy every time...
You prob want to be up around level 20 when you're doing that mission. Watch out for the little red skull over the enemy head. That means they're above your level by a bit.
 

Champ

Full Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2017
Messages
2,434
What level are you?

If you really want the Space Oddity mission done now then...

get close enough to tag all the enemies and then look for a building nearby that has turrets on top of it. There's mines scattered about and some dead folk but when you go in the place around the back there's a computer to access the turrets. It takes time but eventually you'll kill the guards at the drop point
You prob want to be up around level 20 when you're doing that mission. Watch out for the little red skull over the enemy head. That means they're above your level by a bit.
Cheers guys.
Will give that a go,
If not I guess I'll have to leave it to level up a bit then.
That's one thing I fecking hate with games, having to wait to 'level up' in order to achieve a mission, I just want to play the game rather than get bogged down in perks and points.
I get that part of an RPG but still infuriates me!
 

Mr Anderson

Eats, shoots, leaves
Joined
Jul 6, 2009
Messages
23,749
Location
Ireland
Cheers guys.
Will give that a go,
If not I guess I'll have to leave it to level up a bit then.
That's one thing I fecking hate with games, having to wait to 'level up' in order to achieve a mission, I just want to play the game rather than get bogged down in perks and points.
I get that part of an RPG but still infuriates me!
I done it early on, it was insanely difficult. I ended up sonic shocking 4 of them, they then walked towards me and I ran them over in a car. Last 2 I kept my distance and used a lot of grenades I looted. Ran out of bullets - didn’t realise I could craft them at this point...
 

DatIrishFella

Band of Brothers, Thief
Joined
Jul 4, 2012
Messages
8,649
Location
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Its a monumental drop in quality in comparison to TW3.

Looking back at all the missing features/marketing lies is painful.

Never thought my boy CDP would stoop that low. Yes I was silly to have faith in a in corpo.
 

Irwin99

Full Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2018
Messages
3,262
I cheated with the cars missions and did the money glitch trick so I had enough money to buy them :smirk:. I've done almost every side mission in the game and still didn't have enough money for the final cars so I think i'm entitled to exploit the game's bugs. Some of the cars do look really cool, i'll give them credit for the designs.

The romance options have been a bit naff, both straight and gay, man and woman etc. I'm just not bothered about Panam, Kerry was a bit obnoxious, River was a bit bland. Judy was probably the best but I wasn't a female V so I couldn't get her. Yennefer and Triss they certainly ain't.

On to the final mission.
 

Kaos

Full Member
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
26,034
Location
Ginseng Strip
I cheated with the cars missions and did the money glitch trick so I had enough money to buy them :smirk:. I've done almost every side mission in the game and still didn't have enough money for the final cars so I think i'm entitled to exploit the game's bugs. Some of the cars do look really cool, i'll give them credit for the designs.

The romance options have been a bit naff, both straight and gay, man and woman etc. I'm just not bothered about Panam, Kerry was a bit obnoxious, River was a bit bland. Judy was probably the best but I wasn't a female V so I couldn't get her. Yennefer and Triss they certainly ain't.

On to the final mission.
Yeah romance options were a bit light. Though maybe I'm being unfair and comparing it to BioWare games where you can romance every possible galactic species that has a pulse.
 

Mr Pigeon

baldy fatty bum bum
Scout
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
Messages
15,736
Location
Staging a 'coo' against my enemies
I'm........really enjoying this game now. The combat is quite fluid and the missions are fantastic. I know my decisions don't matter, NPCs pop in out of nowhere and it feels like you're only ten seconds away from something bugging out and ruining your day. But when you're roaming about an incredible city off to see yet another well written character whilst TV commercials blast out around you and you stop off for a quick game of "let's kill all six of these thugs in six different ways in six seconds" you really don't care. In isolation the issues with the game are horrid but as a whole experience it barely registers.

Still, fecking fix it before my second playthrough in the summer please.
 

Irwin99

Full Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2018
Messages
3,262
Finished it! I mostly enjoyed it but the bugs and issues did ruin things a bit. It should have been a 9/10 or 10/10 game but it needed a lot more polish. I hope to play it again in six months time or when I get a PS5 and hopefully get the platinum. Have heard people didn't like the ending but the one I got was interesting. I'm going to have to look up the other endings now.

I ended up giving Johnny my body and also betraying V :lol: I actually felt like I wanted to cause a bit of chaos with Johnny and the option to betray V sorta played into Johnny's selfish rocker boy persona. Also Alt did say what she would do with all the data and I figured Johnny would cling to life. It's a shame he didn't reform his band like I wanted him too but I thought it was an interesting ending. I did feel bad at the time for betraying V but I guess curiosity got the better of me :D
 

Klopper76

"Did you see Fabinho against Red Star & Cardiff?"
Joined
Dec 15, 2015
Messages
14,199
Location
Victoria, BC
Supports
Liverpool
This is a fairly good review of the game if you have a couple of hours to watch it.

 

Pscholes18

Full Member
Joined
Jul 21, 1999
Messages
6,382
Location
Fresno, CA
Really enjoying this game and I'm taking my time with it. However, with the minor updates, the game still runs so bad. Just got to act 2, and it's crashing more than it did before. I put in for a refund but will stick with it if I have to.
 

mitChley

Full Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Messages
1,594
Location
Sheffield
Just completed the game after 45 hours.

Decided to end with Panam, couldn't say no to my gurl

Really really enjoyed it. On PC and hit roughly 80FPS throughout the game, and it look magnificent.
Didn't have any crashes and after the first few hot fixes only had a handful of glitches.
Really enjoyed the combat system, it's not the most complex but switching from pistol, to mantis blades, to shotguns, all while double jumping everywhere was great fun.
I think my character suffered from not dedicating points into one thing, by the end I had decided to focus more on netrunning which helped in the final mission.
 

Irwin99

Full Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2018
Messages
3,262
Would be interested to see a poll on how much the game was liked/disliked on here. I said after completing it that I wouldn't touch it again for 6 months just to let it get patched a bit more but I'm already looking forward to doing a corpo run. Definitely has replay value and hopefully some DLC to come.
 

Kaos

Full Member
Joined
May 6, 2007
Messages
26,034
Location
Ginseng Strip
Would be interested to see a poll on how much the game was liked/disliked on here. I said after completing it that I wouldn't touch it again for 6 months just to let it get patched a bit more but I'm already looking forward to doing a corpo run. Definitely has replay value and hopefully some DLC to come.
I've not finished it yet, but have put 60 hours in.

I really enjoyed it, but it still feels massively disappointing to me. And not because of the technical issues either (I have a beefy PC gaming rig), but rather the missing features, stupid NPCs, lack of activities, and general lack of life in the city. To me its just a very good 8/10 open world game with a fantastic unique setting, but otherwise largely forgettable.

But really my disappointment sources from the fact I expected better from CDPR. If a mediocre studio like Ubisoft or Bethesda made this, I'd praise it as one of their best games in recent years, but as the follow up from the studio that brought us the Witcher 3, its a let down.
 

Redlambs

Creator of the Caftards comics
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
36,974
Location
Officially the best poker player on RAWK. Your cas
Would be interested to see a poll on how much the game was liked/disliked on here. I said after completing it that I wouldn't touch it again for 6 months just to let it get patched a bit more but I'm already looking forward to doing a corpo run. Definitely has replay value and hopefully some DLC to come.
I've not finished it yet, but have put 60 hours in.

I really enjoyed it, but it still feels massively disappointing to me. And not because of the technical issues either (I have a beefy PC gaming rig), but rather the missing features, stupid NPCs, lack of activities, and general lack of life in the city. To me its just a very good 8/10 open world game with a fantastic unique setting, but otherwise largely forgettable.

But really my disappointment sources from the fact I expected better from CDPR. If a mediocre studio like Ubisoft or Bethesda made this, I'd praise it as one of their best games in recent years, but as the follow up from the studio that brought us the Witcher 3, its a let down.
This is the exact reason a poll won't be objective.

We all wanted more, some enjoyed the game despite it's flaws, some (like me) are now waiting for a new dawn that is likely never coming, and some outright hate it. But the people who want to love it, may even have, will just flat out refuse to see the negatives and vote way above the worth more than those of us who just wished it could be higher.

A poll is useless now, as the fact is will still don't know. Even right now on PC it's a great setting (though I still say it lacks identity), some decent characters and an OK cyberpunk story all wrapped up in extremely mediocre gameplay. I honestly think the quicker we draw a line under this the better, as I am beginning to think they'll cut loses way before we thought they would and it definitely won't be going the redemption arc of TW3.
 

Champ

Full Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2017
Messages
2,434
I must be doing something seriously wrong, as I cannot complete a single mission at all.
I just die straight away, I can't even beat that fat Rhino freak, I can't even stop and kill any criminals, just die literally straight away every time.
What am I doing wrong?!
 

caid

Full Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Messages
5,185
Location
Dublin
I must be doing something seriously wrong, as I cannot complete a single mission at all.
I just die straight away, I can't even beat that fat Rhino freak, I can't even stop and kill any criminals, just die literally straight away every time.
What am I doing wrong?!
Check the missions on the game map, it'll list the difficulty. You want moderate which is yellow. You're probably in a high level area
 

Champ

Full Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2017
Messages
2,434
Check the missions on the game map, it'll list the difficulty. You want moderate which is yellow. You're probably in a high level area
I'm getting killed in moderates as well as high levels, just get killed in every mission, ridiculous.
Am beginning to lose patience with the game, but I really need to understand what I'm doing wrong!
Doing my head in :lol:
 

Pscholes18

Full Member
Joined
Jul 21, 1999
Messages
6,382
Location
Fresno, CA
I'm getting killed in moderates as well as high levels, just get killed in every mission, ridiculous.
Am beginning to lose patience with the game, but I really need to understand what I'm doing wrong!
Doing my head in :lol:
Shoot and run....take them out slowly..... headshots help out a lot!
 

Mr Anderson

Eats, shoots, leaves
Joined
Jul 6, 2009
Messages
23,749
Location
Ireland
I have 2 NCPD side objectives that won’t deselect off the map. I have them completed and looted. Bastards
 

Champ

Full Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2017
Messages
2,434
Shoot and run....take them out slowly..... headshots help out a lot!
Cheers,
I'm beginning to get the hang of it, I didn't realize I had so many guns in my inventory, the menu is so clunky that I just missed it entirely.
Helps if you use a high powered gun.
Also getting the hang of hacking too, short circuits help to temporarily disable enemies.
 

Mr Anderson

Eats, shoots, leaves
Joined
Jul 6, 2009
Messages
23,749
Location
Ireland
Cheers,
I'm beginning to get the hang of it, I didn't realize I had so many guns in my inventory, the menu is so clunky that I just missed it entirely.
Helps if you use a high powered gun.
Also getting the hang of hacking too, short circuits help to temporarily disable enemies.
Ya, there are so many options. I tend to use distract more than anything, then stealth takedown - more often than not I alert the others when I try a quickhack like short circuit or sonic shock. So I tend to try stealth it, then if I fudge it I whip out the mantis blades (looted legendary ones), smart weapon, or a high powered one If they are able to dodge smart bullets. Rinse and repeat.
 

SilentWitness

ShoelessWitness
Staff
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
Messages
18,106
Location
Scotland
Supports
Everton
I found it still too easy to just pick up a sniper rifle and pick enemies off without even needing to get close to them and bypassing having to do any hacking or being hacked myself. I tried hard not to do that because it takes all fun out of using those other features but the option to do it is there on almost every mission.
 

b82REZ

Full Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2011
Messages
6,113
Location
Manchester
I found it still too easy to just pick up a sniper rifle and pick enemies off without even needing to get close to them and bypassing having to do any hacking or being hacked myself. I tried hard not to do that because it takes all fun out of using those other features but the option to do it is there on almost every mission.
Isn't that the point though? Multiple options to complete each mission.

I was with you that it was too simple to just COD my way through missions so decided to go with a melee, mantis blade build. Unfortunately that made the game even easier.

They certainly need to work on class balancing because it's far too easy to outscale enemies.

@Solius any news on your refund? I've heard feck all, and I'm now resigned to the fact I'm probably not going to get it.
 

Solius

Bearded Scholes admirer
Staff
Joined
Dec 31, 2007
Messages
65,210
Location
Bristol
Isn't that the point though? Multiple options to complete each mission.

I was with you that it was too simple to just COD my way through missions so decided to go with a melee, mantis blade build. Unfortunately that made the game even easier.

They certainly need to work on class balancing because it's far too easy to outscale enemies.

@Solius any news on your refund? I've heard feck all, and I'm now resigned to the fact I'm probably not going to get it.
Absolutely nothing!
 

harshad

Play the odds, not the man - Poor man's Harvey
Scout
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Messages
10,728
Location
On a long road that returns to Old Trafford!!!
I reached the point of no return yesterday. Havent gone further yet and wondering if I should continue with the main story mission or do the side content and NCPD missions before going. Also is there any point in purchasing any of the vehicles the fixers are trying to sell me? Loving the gun Panam gave me after finishing her missions. One shot and the enemy dies :lol: