Dalot or AWB?

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MadDogg

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Unpopular opinion but I would rather see AWB

There is this idea that Dalot is 'betting going forward'. I understand that we can't just determine 'better' through statistics, but Dalot has about 8 career assists in senior football. So we really are scraping the barrel if we're saying his standout quality is his attacking contribution. Like I say, I get it's about a bit more than that, but I really don't think Dalot is good at anything. In fact, I think he's pretty poor at most things.

Now, on AWB. Again, I get that he's supposed to be the worse option going forward...but his record is largely similar to Dalot's. Again...caveat...I know it's about a bit more than that...but I actually don't believe there is anywhere near as much in it as people make out.

Then we consider the defending. People talk about AWBs slide tackling style and make out it's because he's reckless and out-of-position, which I believe is one of those lazy things people who know 'enough to be dangerous' say about football. Sure, AWB makes plenty of sliding tackles, but that's his style. He lures players into taking him on because he knows he's so good in one vs one duels. So he'll shows players some daylight to have a go at him, backing himself to make the tackle.

And...on that point, when you select AWB, you can leave him alone to man-mark a player safe in the knowledge he doesn't need the 'double-up'. Dalot is a terrible one vs one defender, as we saw when that average Villarreal forward absolutely destroyed him time and time again at OT. That just would not have happened to AWB.

So to summarise quite a wordy argument simply...I don't think Dalot is good at anything, whilst I can think of uses for AWB. So I'd favour AWB and use him differently....i.e. overload our right side with attacking players and give them license to 'cheat' a little bit with tracking-back and stay higher to create counter-attacking opportunities.

OR...I'd use AWB as the Kyle Walker-style recovery fullback. So he ALWAYS stays back when we attack and we use his pace/tackling ability to help defend against breakaways.
The key thing for Dalot isn't really what he brings the attack, it's what he brings to the build-up. They aren't the same thing, and the latter is probably more important to managers like Pep and possibly ETH. It allows the team to have more control, helps out the midfield, and makes it easier to maintain possession and build pressure. It's something that AWB is incredibly bad at, much worse than his actual attacking contribution (which actually isn't as bad as some make out).
 

Olecurls99

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Unpopular opinion but I would rather see AWB

There is this idea that Dalot is 'betting going forward'. I understand that we can't just determine 'better' through statistics, but Dalot has about 8 career assists in senior football. So we really are scraping the barrel if we're saying his standout quality is his attacking contribution. Like I say, I get it's about a bit more than that, but I really don't think Dalot is good at anything. In fact, I think he's pretty poor at most things.

Now, on AWB. Again, I get that he's supposed to be the worse option going forward...but his record is largely similar to Dalot's. Again...caveat...I know it's about a bit more than that...but I actually don't believe there is anywhere near as much in it as people make out.

Then we consider the defending. People talk about AWBs slide tackling style and make out it's because he's reckless and out-of-position, which I believe is one of those lazy things people who know 'enough to be dangerous' say about football. Sure, AWB makes plenty of sliding tackles, but that's his style. He lures players into taking him on because he knows he's so good in one vs one duels. So he'll shows players some daylight to have a go at him, backing himself to make the tackle.

And...on that point, when you select AWB, you can leave him alone to man-mark a player safe in the knowledge he doesn't need the 'double-up'. Dalot is a terrible one vs one defender, as we saw when that average Villarreal forward absolutely destroyed him time and time again at OT. That just would not have happened to AWB.

So to summarise quite a wordy argument simply...I don't think Dalot is good at anything, whilst I can think of uses for AWB. So I'd favour AWB and use him differently....i.e. overload our right side with attacking players and give them license to 'cheat' a little bit with tracking-back and stay higher to create counter-attacking opportunities.

OR...I'd use AWB as the Kyle Walker-style recovery fullback. So he ALWAYS stays back when we attack and we use his pace/tackling ability to help defend against breakaways.
It's not just attacking though. He's far better in possession too.
 

Lentwood

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The key thing for Dalot isn't really what he brings the attack, it's what he brings to the build-up. They aren't the same thing, and the latter is probably more important to managers like Pep and possibly ETH. It allows the team to have more control, helps out the midfield, and makes it easier to maintain possession and build pressure. It's something that AWB is incredibly bad at, much worse than his actual attacking contribution (which actually isn't as bad as some make out).
It's not just attacking though. He's far better in possession too.
Yeah so I alluded to this...but my issue is, I am unsure how we quantify it and it's usefulness.

All I will say is I think everybody agrees both are badly flawed and to be honest, I don't understand why we haven't signed at least one RB and sold at least one RB. It SHOULD be a fairly easy position to buy for
 

Superunknown

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AWB is such a poor signing. Looked like he could have been a decent signing with a few really nice early performances, but then just looked worse and worse with each game. Technically, he's really poor on the ball. His attacking play is painful to watch. With all that in mind, Dalot is the better choice, but both are completely replaceable and should be upgraded.
 

Olecurls99

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Yeah so I alluded to this...but my issue is, I am unsure how we quantify it and it's usefulness.

All I will say is I think everybody agrees both are badly flawed and to be honest, I don't understand why we haven't signed at least one RB and sold at least one RB. It SHOULD be a fairly easy position to buy for
We'll see next season how Dalot does with progressive passes, progressive carries, passes into the final 3rd, dribble completion, pass completion, progressive passes received and those sort of things. I imagine they're all better than Bissaka for last season and they'll be much better this season I reckon.
 

MalaysianRed7

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People use the battering Dalot received by Danjuma as an example to justify the argument for AWB time and again. Why not talk about the position Dalot was in in the first place? He was playing his first serious game of the season after being thrust into the limelight by one of the stupidest sending offs I’ve seen for a while (high challenge near the halfway line). Not least, he was playing for a clueless manager who couldn’t resist the temptation to dig him and Telles out after the game to justify why AWB started every match. Telles hasn’t improved since, but Dalot very much has.
 

glazed

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AWB falls into the 'never gonna work in a press' category. Along with DdG and Ronaldo.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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He probably should have done better on the goal but to be fair or him I think felix could skin any defender 1v1. Overall I thought It was Dalots best performance in a Utd shirt. Looked good on the ball. Largely defended pretty well too. He might actually surprise us this season and perform better than expected.
 

MikeKing

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I don't understand anyone who prefer awb here , do you want us to play park the bus football again ? Because his slide tackling skill is only useful for a team who park the bus and surrender possession , because most of the time , slide tackle only ends up giving possession back to the opponents. If we wanted to play like ajax, we rather play with 10 mens than having him because he is absolutely detrimental when we have possession.
Nah man. He can still play a part, and he does a lot more than slide tackles when he is in form. He only needs confidence and belief in him to reach that level again. The season before last he had 6 assist and two goals, playing in a side where a lot of responsibility was put on him to go forward because we had no options on the right wing. He still performed beyond my expectations of him that season. I think people disregard him easily by overstating his weaknesses, because he cost 50m and is quite different to his competitors. It's much more common to understate weaknesses defensively like you see with Dalot or even TAA when in fact, those weaknesses has or would have as much of an impact on this team to tell you the truth. When in form, I'm a fan of him. Right now? Not a fan, but he has to earn his spot back and I think he'll do that.
 

MikeKing

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AWB falls into the 'never gonna work in a press' category. Along with DdG and Ronaldo.
That doesn't even make sense. AWB is both quick and tenacious and a ball winner. He is much better in transition when he has players in close proximity to him. He can play himself out of small spaces, as he has shown. An organised press could be very effective, if he has the capacity to learn it.
 

davidmichael

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Laird over both of Dalot and AWB for me, looked good every time I’ve seen him play and is a fecking Trojan up and down that flank.
 

davidmichael

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I reckon it's gonna be Dalot, and then Laird as his backup. We'll see. Like someone said, it doesn't seem as if AWB exists to ETH.
I can see ETH starting with Dalot due to his experience over Laird but by the middle of the season Laird to have taken over from Dalot as first choice.
 

redcucumber

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I've seen way more good, effective play from AWB than I have from Dalot. Why on earth would I want rid of him for Dalot? People still caping for Dalot after last season??
I don't think anyone is 'caping' for Dalot. People are just saying he suits a ten Hag team better than AWB ever will - which the numbers back up. Also, the majority of people that prefer Dalot to AWB are also saying that he isn't good enough regardless, even if he is more suitable than AWB. It's as simple as that, really.
It's dumb.
People like to say that Dalot will be more suitable to ETH's style. The same was mentioned about Henderson.

End up ETH's prefer DDG. It will be the same for AWB, he has very high ceiling and can be coached to play at very high level.
I have absolutely no idea who you’ve been watching, but it can’t be the Aaron Wan-Bissaka that I have. I’ve not seen a shred of evidence that he’ll ever be better than deep defending perennial relegation contender.
Let him train under ETH and we shall see. You will be in for a surprise.
There’s way too many issues with his game for that. Training may improve a couple of parts of his game, not literally every facet of football beyond slide tackling.
What are people's thoughts thus far? Would they rather (or are they expecting) AWB to come back into the team?
 

RedStarUnited

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I honestly wonder about the people that think technique can be trained.

AWB is awful on the ball and that can not be improved via training. The goal we scored against Leicester for example, we simply don't score that with AWB in the team.

Dalot has upped his intensity a lot defensively too. the one area AWB could have maybe said he was better in.
 

afrocentricity

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What are people's thoughts thus far? Would they rather (or are they expecting) AWB to come back into the team?
Whoever is playing better in the moment. Right now that would be Dalot no? AWB gotta win his spot like everyone else, and he'll have chances.
 

Stadjer

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I honestly wonder about the people that think technique can be trained.

AWB is awful on the ball and that can not be improved via training. The goal we scored against Leicester for example, we simply don't score that with AWB in the team.

Dalot has upped his intensity a lot defensively too. the one area AWB could have maybe said he was better in.
Ofcourse technique can be trained
 

justsomebloke

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AWB possibly up for sale, Dalot favoured.

I guess both are fairly uninspiring options, going forward, but I'd lean towards AWB.

The position can't be seen as a priority, this summer, so if we end up keeping both, it wouldn't be a disaster.

Which might fit into Ten Hag's system better?
Short answer: Not AWB. And maybe not Dalot either, but he is at least worth a try.
 

redcucumber

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Whoever is playing better in the moment. Right now that would be Dalot no? AWB gotta win his spot like everyone else, and he'll have chances.
Right off the bat Dalot was the preferred choice. It's not like AWB has missed out through injury, in fact wasn't Erik's first move as manager to transfer list him? I just don't see a world in which AWB is ever ten Hag's guy. It would be a turnaround of epic proportions if he's ever first choice here again.
 

Telsim

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We still need an RB that can actually challenge Dalot. AWB isn't it and needs to be sold next summer. His agents even pushed for it this window but we kept him for some reason. He will be useful in the meantime, but needs to go. And so does Williams.
 

JJ12

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Ofcourse technique can be trained
Are there many players who had poor technical ability that vastly improved with coaching?

I’d be interested to see how often it happens
 

That'sHernandez

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No it can not. Thats why Pep doesn't bother buying with players who don not have technique.
What a load of tosh. Of course technique can be and is trained; there's nothing natural about the way a human kicks a football, none of it is ergonomically natural.
 

That'sHernandez

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Are there many players who had poor technical ability that vastly improved with coaching?

I’d be interested to see how often it happens
It happens for everyone who plays football. First instinct for most kids is to toe poke the ball to kick it, and then you learn how to pass with the side of your foot, etc., etc. That is technique.
 

Abraxas

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Ofcourse technique can be trained
It can but who are these players that go from poor technically (by United standards or even PL standards) that develop to become technically good by the same standards?

The margin to improve that is very small at a later age, at least at the top levels. Maybe within the lower leagues something else is possible but I can't think of many at this level that make staggering progress. They tend to have the fundamental technical skill ingrained from young.

Very different from stuff like decision making, tactical play, composure in the final third - a lot of that comes down to the mental side and managers and the player can have a huge say over it. Same with physique which is very basic to work on.
 

JJ12

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It happens for everyone who plays football. First instinct for most kids is to toe poke the ball to kick it, and then you learn how to pass with the side of your foot, etc., etc. That is technique.
:lol: Thanks for the obvious

I’m asking at the professional level? Genuine question, just interested.
 

redIndianDevil

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:lol: Thanks for the obvious

I’m asking at the professional level? Genuine question, just interested.
I don't think accurate crossing or passing is natural, it is something you gain by training. AWB can improve technique but whether he succeeds in doing that is not something anyone can know.
 

redIndianDevil

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AWB has a part to play IMO. Take the Arsenal game Dalot did nothing meaningful offensively and was poor defensively as well. AWB could have easily done that. IMO from the two times I've seen Dalot live this season, he is on a similar level to AWB.
 

redIndianDevil

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It can but who are these players that go from poor technically (by United standards or even PL standards) that develop to become technically good by the same standards?

The margin to improve that is very small at a later age, at least at the top levels. Maybe within the lower leagues something else is possible but I can't think of many at this level that make staggering progress. They tend to have the fundamental technical skill ingrained from young.

Very different from stuff like decision making, tactical play, composure in the final third - a lot of that comes down to the mental side and managers and the player can have a huge say over it. Same with physique which is very basic to work on.
But Dalot's technique is not that good either. For example his crossing is not that good, Robertson was excellent at that even when he played for Hull City. Dalot's dribbling is just average too, so he cannot improve his technique either according to you then.
 

Bwuk

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I don't understand how this is even a debate. AWB can barely control a football.
 

CarbonStoolBites

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But Dalot's technique is not that good either. For example his crossing is not that good, Robertson was excellent at that even when he played for Hull City. Dalot's dribbling is just average too, so he cannot improve his technique either according to you then.
Compared to AWB Dalot is literally Maradona.
 

Abraxas

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But Dalot's technique is not that good either. For example his crossing is not that good, Robertson was excellent at that even when he played for Hull City. Dalot's dribbling is just average too, so he cannot improve his technique either according to you then.
I didn't say it can't be improved, you have failed to read. I said the margins for improving it appear limited at the higher levels and after the teenage years. This is made clear by the lack of examples there are of players being able to do this. We might see refinement but we don't see shite to good.

And yes I would say the same for Dalot. However, Dalot is starting from a higher baseline. This is the exact reason Ralf and now ETH ditched AWB. It wasn't for Dalot's superior athleticism or one v one defending, was it?
 

MTF

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I don't understand how this is even a debate. AWB can barely control a football.
I'm with you and @RedStarUnited . There's no training in the world that will make AWB even average at ball control and short passing. The "raw ingredients" that go into that are dexterity and balance, then training can increase accuracy, consistency, speed of execution, etc. But him and his legs will not ever make an average professional player in ball control, he's just too uncoordinated.
 

rooney2009

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ETH has seen something in AWB and that’s why he is still here
I think there is a lot of potential there and he was brilliant in his 1st season
Nobody looked good playing in that team last season and even Varane looked rubbish
Hopefully ETH will be able to improve players and give them confidence
There is a good player in there that just needs to rebuild confidence
 

mitchmouse

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Dalot's found a bit of form... AWB simply isn't good enough in my opinion. Wonderful sliding tackles aren't enough for me - his positional sense is questionable and I've lost count of the number of times his play the opposition onside
 

JJ12

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Why would it be any different? All it is is practice...
Ok - so who has made massive strides in that regard as a professional? Are there any examples of a 24 year old player with below average technical ability and make vast improvements? Would be great if there was examples.

I sincerely hope somebody can coach AWB to be competent technically, I don't think he has enough natural ability though.
 
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