Damage done by previous regime

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choccy77

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It's all David Moyes fault.
 

spiriticon

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Which previous regime though? Ole's? Jose's? LvG's? Moyes?

All of them fixed some things but brought new damages to the club in different ways.
 

VP89

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Which previous regime though? Ole's? Jose's? LvG's? Moyes?

All of them fixed some things but brought new damages to the club in different ways.
Well Ole bought Maguire for 80m and AWB for 50, together with Donny for around 35.

I can't help but think a manager who knows the football landscape better is capable of spending 150m+ better, and that would have put is in a much better place alone.
 

spiriticon

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Well Ole bought Maguire for 80m and AWB for 50, together with Donny for around 35.

I can't help but think a manager who knows the football landscape better is capable of spending 150m+ better, and that would have put is in a much better place alone.
Jose and LvG's buys were just as terrible though. It all started with Moyes spending 30 million on bloody Fellaini.
 

VP89

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Jose and LvG's buys were just as terrible though. It all started with Moyes spending 30 million on bloody Fellaini.
Of course, but I think this "cultural reset" started with the wrong guy after Jose.
 

Irwin99

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I'd say previous regimes-plural. There's been something so underwhelming about us now for so long and people were grasping onto to the 'progress' of top 4 finishes in the same way we looked at Jose's first two seasons as respectable but in both instances there were massive problems that never looked like being addressed: a complete lack of control/technique in the midfield, dodgy fullbacks that you can never really trust, a weird and backward mentality around a semi-mythical "United way/United DNA" among the club and its fan base and a sort of "what would Sir Alex do" as a basis of judgement. It's all just ...really messed up. Ole was a big contributor to this but let's not pretend the issues haven't been there for a decade or so.

There's also so many question marks about this supposedly superior squad that Ole left us with and so many of the same issues that have dogged the club for years. The midfield is collectively utter shite; Rashford looks a poor imitation of what was a very exciting player (can't help but think the injuries and overplaying in those two years are a big factor but I might be wrong), our fullbacks absolutely suck in terms of consistency, our two strikers are OAPs, a significant part of the squad won't be here for much longer or want out. What's our best centre back pairing? Is our 80 million captain really an automatic starter? Nevermind Ronaldo, are Sancho and Greenwood suited to a high press system where they have to contribute defensively? Why the feck was DVB bought?

I'm not criticizing Ralf at all, i'm just praying for the day we get a structure and a manager that is forward thinking and possesses a clear identity from which we play better football and challenge for trophies. Perhaps we're already in this process but it's depressing to contemplate the mess we're in and acknowledge that this will, yet again, be another trophyless season and probably without a top 4 finish.
 

spiriticon

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Of course, but I think this "cultural reset" started with the wrong guy after Jose.
Sure but we've been trying to reset culturally since Moyes was sacked. And each manager has failed.

Ole was bad, but he was but one in a line of bad regimes. To blame him alone is just recency bias.
 

Leftback99

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There could be more damage done getting rid when we did and ripping up the whole coaching structure mid season rather than waiting until the summer.
 

VP89

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Sure but we've been trying to reset culturally since Moyes was sacked. And each manager has failed.

Ole was bad, but he was but one in a line of bad regimes. To blame him alone is just recency bias.
Dont think Jose was any sort of cultural reset to be fair. It was just a panic move.

The team has changed a lot since Jose left. Ole bought in a lot of these players and fostered a vibes feel which was detrimental to whoevers next. There is a decay factor here, and Oles feck up is most heavily weighted toward our current state.
 

spiriticon

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Dont think Jose was any sort of cultural reset to be fair. It was just a panic move.

The team has changed a lot since Jose left. Ole bought in a lot of these players and fostered a vibes feel which was detrimental to whoevers next. There is a decay factor here, and Oles feck up is most heavily weighted toward our current state.
Is it any worse than the bad seasons last 8 years though? 7th under Moyes, 6th under LvG, 6th under Jose...

Its just rinse and repeat once every few years, regardless of manager
 

VP89

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Is it any worse than the bad seasons last 8 years though? 7th under Moyes, 6th under LvG, 6th under Jose...

Its just rinse and repeat once every few years, regardless of manager
I am giving Rangnik a lot more than 5 games before I bucket him with the rest. Especially considering how shit Ole was in his coaching and his transfers to lumber the next guy with a shower of lazy shites who are now too expensive to shift.
 

Van Piorsing

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No proper clearout just adds more salt to the damage and the next managers will most likely share the same fate.

First it was ruthless Jose who had basis in winning trophies, but did f*ck all to create space for something new. Hiring him was antithesis for building long term. He didin't even correct most mistakes done by LvG.

Then came Ole sold Rom & Alexis, but Maguire & Bissaka were squezzed in for huge amounts. He was on the rise, but even moment of being too nice cost him a job. Can't blame everything on him, but he had incredible chance of breaking the wheel of underperforming, overrated players flooding the club.

Ralf came and if he thinks he'll survive here to summer 2022 just by making honest interviews he might be in for rude awakening. One year is not enough, but perhaps it's enough to clear the dressing room just before players will throw him under the bus... and perhaps then new manager will have less work in repairing things.

Klopp cleared his dressing room before adding elements. In first years above 20 players left which created financial space for bringing the right elements. United seem to do things in totally wrong order.

What we did is swapped Darmian for Bissaka then go through same motions, results and similar sacking manner.
 

spiriticon

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I am giving Rangnik a lot more than 5 games before I bucket him with the rest. Especially considering how shit Ole was in his coaching and his transfers to lumber the next guy with a shower of lazy shites who are now too expensive to shift.
Sure, I'm not talking about Rangnick in particular but for me Ole has just been as bad as the rest before him. No better or worse really.

A lot of the lazy shites having been shifting hands for years. Pogba, Martial, Lingard, nice guy Mata even.. And yes you can also add Maguire and AWB to that list.

The previous regimes, including Ole's, have fixed nothing.
 

VP89

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Sure, I'm not talking about Rangnick in particular but for me Ole has just been as bad as the rest before him. No better or worse really.

A lot of the lazy shites having been shifting hands for years. Pogba, Martial, Lingard, nice guy Mata even.. And yes you can also add Maguire and AWB to that list.

The previous regimes, including Ole's, have fixed nothing.
Ole has been worse. He achieved no trophies and fostered zero winning mentality into the team. Jose became his own enemy during his time here but he at least instilled some stubbornness and defensive foundation into the squad to get him a spot of silverware.

Ole is comfortably our worst manager along with Moyes.
 

Lee565

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So much ole's cultural reboot, he looks to have left us in a worse state in terms of player personalities than what any of the other past managers did.
 

spiriticon

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Ole has been worse. He achieved no trophies and fostered zero winning mentality into the team. Jose became his own enemy during his time here but he at least instilled some stubbornness and defensive foundation into the squad to get him a spot of silverware.

Ole is comfortably our worst manager along with Moyes.
The point is if the previous two were any good at their jobs Ole as United manager would never have been a reality in the first place.

He was just one in a long line of bad previous regimes, bringing in their own lazy players and their own faulty methods.
 

Lee565

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Ole has been worse. He achieved no trophies and fostered zero winning mentality into the team. Jose became his own enemy during his time here but he at least instilled some stubbornness and defensive foundation into the squad to get him a spot of silverware.

Ole is comfortably our worst manager along with Moyes.
Mourinho wanted rid of the likes of pogba and martial when we still could have got a decent deal for both of them, where as ole has put us in a position where pogba walks on a free now and we will be luck to get 30 million for martial.....
 

mu4c_20le

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Mourinho wanted rid of the likes of pogba and martial when we still could have got a decent deal for both of them, where as ole has put us in a position where pogba walks on a free now and we will be luck to get 30 million for martial.....
Mourinho signed pogba. He also signed Miki who lasted a few months before the league broke him, and then swapped him for the great Sanchez.
 

VP89

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The point is if the previous two were any good at their jobs Ole as United manager would never have been a reality in the first place.

He was just one in a long line of bad previous regimes, bringing in their own lazy players and their own faulty methods.
As I said, the run up to Ole is inconsequential. My point is about the current predicament Rangnick finds himself in, and a large part of this is because his pre-decessor fostered zero winning mentality, next to no coaching and terribly misallocated the monetary resources available to him.

Yes there was bad managers before Ole, but their teams and their methods have been wiped regardless so it's not relevant. What we have is Ole's methods and Ole's players attitude in a Rangnick squad. He's left lumbered from a shit regime before him that he now needs to solve sooner rather than later.
 

spiriticon

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As I said, the run up to Ole is inconsequential. My point is about the current predicament Rangnick finds himself in, and a large part of this is because his pre-decessor fostered zero winning mentality, next to no coaching and terribly misallocated the monetary resources available to him.

Yes there was bad managers before Ole, but their teams and their methods have been wiped regardless so it's not relevant. What we have is Ole's methods and Ole's players attitude in a Rangnick squad. He's left lumbered from a shit regime before him that he now needs to solve sooner rather than later.
Ok sure, can't argue against that. It is recency bias but you are only ever as good as your current predicament I guess.
 

VP89

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Ok sure, can't argue against that. It is recency bias but you are only ever as good as your current predicament I guess.
It's not recency bias. You need to apply a decay factor (i.e. the extent of the effect something from previous regimes has on the current one). Ole's regime has the bigggest impact on Rangnick - not someone like LVG.
 

spiriticon

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It's not recency bias. You need to apply a decay factor (i.e. the extent of the effect something from previous regimes has on the current one). Ole's regime has the bigggest impact on Rangnick - not someone like LVG.
Yeah of course it has the most impact, he was the most recent manager! Just like Jose's failures had the biggest impact on Ole, and LvG's failures had the biggest impact on Jose. But the truth is it's been decaying for 8 years.

It's 2 steps forward and 3 steps back, always.
 

BlueHaze

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There's a myth about Ole leaving behind a good team for the next manager. Complete nonsense imo. He had nearly 3 years to adress the midfield and completely ignored it. The midfield is one of the most important positions on the pitch. Thrown a total of £130m on a mediore CB and a fullback who's completely incapable of doing anything going forward when Shaw on the other side was pretty much useless at going forward as well.

Telles has not been impressive by any means. Sancho and Bruno were decent signings but there's so many problems in this team you don't even know where to begin. Rashford has become totally useless, Martial wants out, Cavani and Ronaldo won't be here next season. That pretty much leaves us with no attack, an absolutely disastrous midfield and a shaky backline.

The next manager is going to have a lot of problems on his hand.
 

MiracleInMadrid

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I'll put most of the fault on the levels above the manager. We haven't had a clear and ambitious strategy or vision for how we wan't to play football for far too long. We simply have lacked leadership and structure in our entire sporting setup. From recruitment to tactics and everything inbetween. Even in the type of managers we have hired. Zero consitency in the type of candidate and the philosophy they represent. For fecks sake, even the likes of Burnley would have a crystal clear idea of which kind of coach they would go after if Dyche decided to leave.

And I'm not only talking about having a star of a sporting director or something like that. I'm talking about having someone somewhere in the organisation with a strategy that everyone buys in on.

I'm sure there have been some sort of plan, but either it hasn't been ambitious enough or they've completely failed to implement it.
 

Maluco

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Three years wasted.
If it were just 3 years wasted, that would be one thing, but it’s so much more than that.

It’s subpar coaching in a phase of development that certain players desperately needed

It’s wasting 130 million on two players that will never be good enough for the club

It’s lowering standards and expectations around the whole club, giving jobs to underqualified mates and insisting with players that were never going to be good enough.

The damage is far greater than just wasting 3 years unfortunately. He has set us back a lot more than that and it should never have been allowed to happen.
 

stevoc

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Cardiff were 17th, one point above the relegation zone when Solskjaer was appointed. Sure, they were in a relegation battle but they were no certainties to be relegated. The likes of Sam Allardyce or Tony Pulis would have fancied themselves to keep Cardiff up.
Both of those guys are vastly more experienced in the PL and relegation battles though, Solskjaer wasn't.

They got relegated so he obviously didn't do a great job but the way people keep going on about it on here you'd think Solskjaer had been the manager the entire season and got them relegated single handedly.
 

stevoc

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No proper clearout just adds more salt to the damage and the next managers will most likely share the same fate.

First it was ruthless Jose who had basis in winning trophies, but did f*ck all to create space for something new. Hiring him was antithesis for building long term. He didin't even correct most mistakes done by LvG.

Then came Ole sold Rom & Alexis, but Maguire & Bissaka were squezzed in for huge amounts. He was on the rise, but even moment of being too nice cost him a job. Can't blame everything on him, but he had incredible chance of breaking the wheel of underperforming, overrated players flooding the club.

Ralf came and if he thinks he'll survive here to summer 2022 just by making honest interviews he might be in for rude awakening. One year is not enough, but perhaps it's enough to clear the dressing room just before players will throw him under the bus... and perhaps then new manager will have less work in repairing things.

Klopp cleared his dressing room before adding elements. In first years above 20 players left which created financial space for bringing the right elements. United seem to do things in totally wrong order.

What we did is swapped Darmian for Bissaka then go through same motions, results and similar sacking manner.
AWB hasn't set the world alight but let's not compare him to fecking Darmian. We could have played a traffic cone at RB and it would have been an improvement on Darmian most games.
 

Van Piorsing

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AWB hasn't set the world alight but let's not compare him to fecking Darmian. We could have played a traffic cone at RB and it would have been an improvement on Darmian most games.
...but It's exactly what we did. We swapped Darmian for Bissaka and told ourselves we'll be challenging for titles soon enough.

Darmian lifting trophy with Jose is something from Twilight Zone episode but it happened, when I look how Bissaka tries to control the ball it's like watching X-Files on LSD. Even Darmian being a traffic cone could control the ball if it by some chance rolled to his feet.
 

LazyGoal

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I’d say we actually have more of a problem selling, than buying.

This causes massive problems. Not just the hugh squad, but the players get an idea they can be here forever regardless of performance.

Just imagine what stuff would do to your house if it behaved like that and you never got rid.
 

stevoc

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...but It's exactly what we did. We swapped Darmian for Bissaka and told ourselves we'll be challenging for titles soon enough.

Darmian lifting trophy with Jose is something from Twilight Zone episode but it happened, when I look how Bissaka tries to control the ball it's like watching X-Files on LSD. Even Darmian being a traffic cone could control the ball if it by some chance rolled to his feet.
Did anyone really think we would be challenging for the title off the back of buying Wan Bissaka? There were tentative hopes of a title challenge this season after signing Sancho, Varane and Ronaldo but I don't remember similar chatter back in 2019 after signing a 20 year old fullback from Palace.

But regardless, sorry I'm not having that Darmian shit mate. Darmian was a much worse player than any fullback we currently have, people complain about AWB's ability going forward but at least he tries which is more than could ever be said for Darmian who got a nose bleed if he crossed the half way line. Easily the worst fullback I've seen in 30 years of watching United, a wet fart of a footballer.
 
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roseguy64

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Ole was extremely wasteful with the squad and creating a worse scenario of deadwood/unhappy players than previous managers, he kept hold of mata for too long despite not using him, same with beek, same with matic, same with henderson, same with bailly, same with telles, same with dalot, same with lingard, same with diallo and the same with martial this season, that is a easily 100 million in wasted transfer money and a huge waste of salary bill.
We tried to loan out/sell some of those players you've mentioned there.
 

Crashoutcassius

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city spend 60m on a left back who never played and is now up for rape and all our problems are because we spent 50m on awb a few years ago. this is big boy football, you have to spend money and it won't always work, it can't be some kind of wierd excuse for the next 10 years
 

Greck

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city spend 60m on a left back who never played and is now up for rape and all our problems are because we spent 50m on awb a few years ago. this is big boy football, you have to spend money and it won't always work, it can't be some kind of wierd excuse for the next 10 years
AWB was a very questionable signing all those years ago. For a while he beat expectations bu it didn't take long for all the concerns about his technical limitations to materialize. We had just freshly offloaded Lukaku (right move) and the first thing we did was sign his junior brother at right back.
 

MUFC OK

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I'd say previous regimes-plural. There's been something so underwhelming about us now for so long and people were grasping onto to the 'progress' of top 4 finishes in the same way we looked at Jose's first two seasons as respectable but in both instances there were massive problems that never looked like being addressed: a complete lack of control/technique in the midfield, dodgy fullbacks that you can never really trust, a weird and backward mentality around a semi-mythical "United way/United DNA" among the club and its fan base and a sort of "what would Sir Alex do" as a basis of judgement. It's all just ...really messed up. Ole was a big contributor to this but let's not pretend the issues haven't been there for a decade or so.
These are as big of a problem now as they have been since SAF.

We so sorely miss having the likes of scholes/carrick to dictate the tempo of a game. Equally we miss players with the dogged ability to work hard, coupled with technical ability: Rooney, Tevez, Park, Hargreaves (for a short while).

Ralph can start by working out how the hell we are going to start winning the midfield battles and earning the right to play. That’s the single biggest issue that we currently face imo. When you do that players automatically work harder, they feel in control of the game, and you can actually dominate period if not the entirety of a match.
 

steffyr2

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If it were just 3 years wasted, that would be one thing, but it’s so much more than that.

It’s subpar coaching in a phase of development that certain players desperately needed

It’s wasting 130 million on two players that will never be good enough for the club

It’s lowering standards and expectations around the whole club, giving jobs to underqualified mates and insisting with players that were never going to be good enough.

The damage is far greater than just wasting 3 years unfortunately. He has set us back a lot more than that and it should never have been allowed to happen.
Agree with all of this!

One other thing -- it's the fan base who won't accept that there has to changes for things to get better.
 

RedIreland

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Easy to blame Rangnick for what's going on at the moment..... he's only here a few weeks and had to cope with a Covid shutdown etc..... and lets face it he only has 4-5 more moths in charge before the next BIG DECISION has to be made!

Its the players that the focus of all our ire should be directed towards......

I am following Utd since the mid-60's and I can honestly say without a shadow of a doubt that I have never seen previous teams perform so badly on a consistent basis for so long - given the cost of putting these guys together.
Up to this season most of Ole additions looked to be working reaonably okay - AWB started off very well and Bruno was unbelievable up to September of this season - and remember Maguire and Shaw starred for England under Southgate. Sancho and Varane were added ...and topped up with Ronaldo's return! A title challenge beckoned!

What a big let down and disappointment this season (plus the ending of last season) turned out to be..... I cannot remember the last game we played where I was 100% satisfied with all 11 players performances - this has caused me more mental anguish than Covid and that's saying something!

Just what has gone so wrong that this current bunch of players just do not seem to know how to play as a proper team. They seem to have forgotten the basics of how to even play the game ......Most of us have been reared on the successful 1990-2013 Fergie teams with a way of playing which delighted and amazed both Reds fans and opposing fans - we were never ever beaten 'till the last seconds of injury time. Even if we trailed in a game you knew the Utd response would be maniacal pressing/attacking until we either scored or nearly died in the process - this team has currently lost all these traits as we all saw this evening v Wolves.

For pity's sake how many more games have we to go before we actually score from a corner - must be one goal in last 120 games at this stage .... and look at the corner count tonight from the away team who last won here in 1980.

Players seem to have lost the basics of how to play these days..... passing into vacant spaces.....not passing ahead of a running player ... inability to hold or put their foot on the ball..... no system of playing .... boring and repetitive side to side and backwards passing of the ball .... no playmaker......no decent and consistent defensive midfield players .... players play one good game followed by a bad one.... what is the reason for this ....they have the ability but how have they lost it so quickly and when/if will it return .......this season or next?

It seems to me that this season is a write-off already and we have honestly known that for some months now - I keep waiting for a co-ordinated players response but in truth I/we all knew tonight after 2-3 mins that we were in for another of these recent sub-par TORRID performances against teams that SAF's teams would put to the sword by HT!

Oh..this team is so so different! I have lost faith in them completely - but by God I hope that I'm wrong but I doubt it after we have now played 5-6 teams in the lower and really lower part of the Premiership table and almost all of the performanaces have been absolutely abject with no hope that the tide is or will turn......

Rather than repeat our mistakes of the past and let this go on for 25 years, I reckon its time to cut our losses now and appoint a top class manager at the end of this season - and let him oversee a 2-3 year plan to clear out most of the current players and replace them with new blood......

But...what manager and what players? I really don't know but we need to do something and not blame the owners and managers every time Sancho/Rashford/Greenwood don't try to recover a lost ball or track back (Look at Cavani and he's 35!) .... or fail to score yet again with another corner etc.

Inferior teams and clubs have rumbled us these days..... press Utd's players and they get jittery and lose the ball... again! Sancho's game tonight was an absolute disaster - how did we pursue him and pay £75m for such mediocrity.... Rashford and Greenwood are shadows of their former vibrant selves.... a man who hasn't played for 2 years was arguably our best and most comfortable looking player. I could so on and on but would only repeat what all Forum members have been saying for months......

We have a bunch of players who feel more serious about their "social media presence" or "lad about town" reputation or that they are now the "social conscience of the country" ....when all we want is a player to play week in/week out to the utmost of their ability and best efforts each time they pull on the Utd jersey.......there are currently no Utd players that would get into any of the top 3 Premiership teams .... and as Charlie said tonight on Sky the Utd job is now looked upon as a "poisoned chalice" in football .....Mission Impossible more like!

Oh for the thoughts of Keano and Scholesie on what they really think of the current squad of players.....

My thoughts above are probably a bit over the top but I write them from the heart as a long time Red who has seen a lot of good times and some bad times but never experienced the absolute supporters mental anguish that I am/ we are going through at the moment - WHEN WILL IT END!

Maybe we will see some player - and I stress PLAYER - improvement in the next couple of games against the old enemy Stevie "Slippy" G! ...... we await in dreaded anticipation of what could happen .....
 
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