Daniel Taylor on Martial

JPRouve

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He has been here 4 years or so and the jury is still out. Says it all really, surely if he was as good as he is supposed to be there would be no discussion by now.
There would be discussions because we bought a player that was at the beggining of his transition to professional football, not someone with a lot of games under his belt. For some reason he has been treated by the club as if he was the finished product.
 

flappyjay

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Martials premier league stats:

Appearances121Goals37Assists20

random other average rated striker stats: i promise i picked a random striker, not at a top 6 club ( to make a point - so there was some bias there)

Appearances139Goals37Assists18 (Troy Deeney)

and another random one:

Appearances104Goals38Assists11 (Callum Wilson)

would either of them be described as World Class or having world class potential? and yet their output over the last 5 years matches that of our Antony.
Where was Tony playing all this years, oh as a winger. Those two have also been undisputed starters. Martial has ever been an undisputed starter in 1 season
 

Handré1990

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I liked Martial during his first year with Van Gaal, because the guy was shy, didn't asked for anything and almost tried... Then he began a spoiled kid that was crying for a number 9 position when he can't clearly score more than 10 goals in this position.

He's not in the same planet as Aguero, Kane, Firminho as he doesn't have hunger or a particular high IQ.

I tell you that we will not reach our dream of coming back to the first places with this number 9...
It took ten posts before someone called his intelligence into question. Not that bad these days I suppose.

He also eats too much junk food!
I can make shit up as well as the next person...
 

FrankDrebin

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I'd say Martial is comfortably the most intelligent forward player we have with James (already) second.
 

flappyjay

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That Sheffield striker was a thorn all day long to our expensive defence. He battled, work hard, and stretching out the play. I wish we have a striker who would do that.

Rashford provided those, but lacking in killer striker instinct. Otherwise, he’d be perfect.
Rashfords finishing ability isn't the reason why hei isn't a striker
 

el3mel

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Like what? Posting 28,000 times on a forum?
Still more entertaining than watching 2 people talking for 1 hour. :lol:

I am honestly never into these but if people like it so be it. Still I can never know how you bring yourself to watch such a long length video on YouTube.

People saying they do work while listening, I tried this several times and usually end up losing interest shortly after and stop following what they are saying.
 

djembatheking

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There would be discussions because we bought a player that was at the beggining of his transition to professional football, not someone with a lot of games under his belt. For some reason he has been treated by the club as if he was the finished product.
How much longer until he comes the finished product?
 

JohnnyKills

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A lot of people suggest Martial's lazy, but for me it seems more an issue of bravery. He doesn't seem brave enough to be an elite player.

A lot of times he'll get into position to challenge a defender, or the goalkeeper, and just pull up short without putting a foot in. He's not particularly good in the air and it's hard to remember him scoring many goals where he's had to outmuscle a defender.

You can coach a player to work harder but I'd imagine it's hard to teach them to be braver. Hope he proves me wrong but I just can't see him making that final leap.
 

UpWithRivers

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you know...you know...you know...you know...you know....you know.... you know...
 

JPRouve

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How much longer until he comes the finished product?
I don't know players are different, some reach that point early and others reach it late. Strikers are rarely in their prime between 19 and 24 years old though, particularly when they haven't started particularly soon. Just think about it this way someone like Hazard had more than 200 games when he joined Chelsea and he was rated a lot higher than Martial but he still needed a few years of development, Martial had around 60 games with the majority of them as a sub.
 

Sayros

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How much longer until he comes the finished product?
3 years.

On a more serious note, it's dependent on the player and the manager. Martial, and the rest of this team, are inconsistent and sometimes, through different coaches over the years, look like they're playing their first game together. At least now they're keeping their starting spots simply because there isn't anyone else to put there, so I'd hope to see them start games brighter with more chemistry and link up play.

I'm not watching that video, but from the comments seems to be another hit job on Martial, so original. The guy's got his flaws, but he's a key player for this team. Not for a contender, not for a world-class team, but for this team he is. He's one of the last pieces I'd look to upgrade on, but that doesn't mean I would have him be the automatic starting striker, especially if Halaand is available. However, I'd like to see him play up top with the Nowegian, as a shadow striker where I think he would thrive with a target man to work off and Rashford/James on either side of him.
 

Mainoldo

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if we sign Haaland, i'll be more than happy with Martial in a backup / challenging for a starter role. he can also play wide left too when required.
Haaland is talent-less otherwise than goals. Might aswell have kept Lukaku. Going to cost the same too. No thanks rather try and blow the money on a Sancho.
 

Wednesday at Stoke

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None of this is new other than the Norwich away game story. Everyone said he was talented, yet lacks hunger when United bought him.
 

Red00012

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Martial scores - what a player

Martial doesn’t score - not good enough to be a number 9
 

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RUCK4444

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Also a situation with Jardim where Martial was subbed on and 20 minutes later subbed off due to a lack of influence in the game. :lol:
Feck me, I’d like to do that most weeks with the fecker

I never thought I’d see a more talented yet frustrating player at United than Nani, Martial is even more frustrating.

Unlike Nani Martial can barely string together three good games, his attitude is abysmal and that has been apparent to me since his second season.
 

Bubz27

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Martials premier league stats:

Appearances121Goals37Assists20

random other average rated striker stats: i promise i picked a random striker, not at a top 6 club ( to make a point - so there was some bias there)

Appearances139Goals37Assists18 (Troy Deeney)

and another random one:

Appearances104Goals38Assists11 (Callum Wilson)

would either of them be described as World Class or having world class potential? and yet their output over the last 5 years matches that of our Antony.
How many games have they played as CF compared to LW?
 

wolvored

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This season. Martial 5 goals 766 mins played. 153 mins a goal. Greenwood 4 goals 477 minutes played 119 mins a goal. Off the BBC.
Give Greenwood Martials position and he would definitely be the best striker we have. Martial is too much of a sulker and goes missing in games. He greatly needs to step up this season or be moved on. Maybe Mourinho was right about him.
 

el3mel

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Re Martial, I think he's a good player that it's good for any team to have in his squad, however the problem he's extremely overrated by his fans here who put him in a state I highly doubt he'll reach. Good player to have, however I don't see any team wanting to challenge for PL wanting him as a main starter every week. He plays hot and cold very often which is bad. Of course, brilliant when he get on running, but on his off days he becomes totally invisible on the pitch.

Of course currently he's one of our best players and should play every game though, but talking in general I don't see him achieving what people are expecting him to, ever.

It's shame our 2 best players in Martial and Pogba are so inconsistent and can't get themselves to play a full season with the same focus, concentration and performance. Honestly the fact our 2 best players are 2 very inconsistent ones might be one of the reason we're crap, because it made us over dependent on them while they will never deliver regularly every week.
 

wolvored

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I don't know players are different, some reach that point early and others reach it late. Strikers are rarely in their prime between 19 and 24 years old though, particularly when they haven't started particularly soon. Just think about it this way someone like Hazard had more than 200 games when he joined Chelsea and he was rated a lot higher than Martial but he still needed a few years of development, Martial had around 60 games with the majority of them as a sub.
We cant afford to wait for him to become an elite player though. we need a proven goalscorer straight away. As I have said Greenwood already looks like he can become a special player after an handful of games and 17 years old.
 

JPRouve

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We cant afford to wait for him to become an elite player though. we need a proven goalscorer straight away. As I have said Greenwood already looks like he can become a special player after an handful of games and 17 years old.
Well in that case we better not sign any young player. And no Greenwood doesn't look like he could do a job in the same role, not if you actually watched us play.
 

kidbob

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Anyone reckon he could play with Haaland? Kind of like a budget Cantona
Well in that case we better not sign any young players. And no Greenwood doesn't look like he could do a job in the same role, not if you actually watched us play.
Agree that Greenwood has a long way to go. Do you think that Martial could possibly play with Haaland? Sometimes I feel like he is more a budget Cantona than an out and out striker. Problem being that we'd need a solid midfield before even trying it. That midfield statement in itself is a problem because I find myself constantly wondering how some of our 'better' players would do with a better team around them (pogba the same).
 

JPRouve

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Anyone reckon he could play with Haaland? Kind of like a budget Cantona


Agree that Greenwood has a long way to go. Do you think that Martial could possibly play with Haaland? Sometimes I feel like he is more a budget Cantona than an out and out striker. Problem being that we'd need a solid midfield before even trying it. That midfield statement in itself is a problem because I find myself constantly wondering how some of our 'better' players would do with a better team around them (pogba the same).
Honestly I don't know Haaland but Martial played around the likes of Falcao, Berbatov and Lacina Traoré so I don't really think that it would be a problem. It wouldn't hurt to try, in fact we should try with Greewood first and see what happens.
 

wolvored

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Well in that case we better not sign any young player. And no Greenwood doesn't look like he could do a job in the same role, not if you actually watched us play.
No we need to sign a proven goalscorer or accept midtable mediocrity. Haaland is young and looks a fine goalscorer.
 

Isotope

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Rashfords finishing ability isn't the reason why hei isn't a striker
What do you mean? There are other abilities he can improve (positioning, heading, etc), but finishing is his main weakness as striker.
 

JPRouve

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No we need to sign a proven goalscorer or accept midtable mediocrity. Haaland is young and looks a fine goalscorer.
What has that to do with Martial or patience? You can purchase Haaland and add him to our current team and there is no guarantee that he will be a success or that he is close to be the finished product.
 

kidbob

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Honestly I don't know Haaland but Martial played around the likes of Falcao, Berbatov and Lacina Traoré so I don't really think that it would be a problem. It wouldn't hurt to try, in fact we should try with Greewood first and see what happens.
I'd definitely be for it. In a weird way he's the best finisher we have, probably the best dribbler and also the most creative short range passer in our front 3. I think what goes against him is he doesn't have the 'desire' of a 9. Now obviously Cantona had that type of character hence the 'budget' term but Martial thrives when he has the ball, he doesn't make a lot of runs so maybe he's more a 9.5 than a 9. Maybe like Cantona he'll be a good runner when theres a purpose rather than running for no reason (which according to Keane's book was a trait Eric had). He honestly just strikes me as a guy that needs to be on the ball centrally in offensive positions without being the guy expected to make blind offensive runs. The problem with this is it needs us to have a dominant midfield or else we are getting overrun out of possession.

Forgive me I've been watching our 2000 goals and it struck me how Cantona always played off a more natural striker and some of his abilities reminded me of Martial.
 

GDaly95

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He obviously makes a good but also obvious point.

Highly talented. Looks hungry for about two months at a time with large spaces in between. Not very highly rated in France. Jose didn't dig him out in public for the craic, he did it as a last resort because nothing else worked.

You'd be mad to think Martial was determined to be the best footballer he can be.
 

JPRouve

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I'd definitely be for it. In a weird way he's the best finisher we have, probably the best dribbler and also the most creative short range passer in our front 3. I think what goes against him is he doesn't have the 'desire' of a 9. Now obviously Cantona had that type of character hence the 'budget' term but Martial thrives when he has the ball, he doesn't make a lot of runs so maybe he's more a 9.5 than a 9. Maybe like Cantona he'll be a good runner when theres a purpose rather than running for no reason (which according to Keane's book was a trait Eric had). He honestly just strikes me as a guy that needs to be on the ball centrally in offensive positions without being the guy expected to make blind offensive runs. The problem with this is it needs us to have a dominant midfield or else we are getting overrun out of possession.

Forgive me I've been watching our 2000 goals and it struck me how Cantona always played off a more natural striker and some of his abilities reminded me of Martial.
To be fair you are not wrong, personally my idea was centered around having two wide forwards Rashford on one side and a left footed right inside forward on the right, basically something close to Liverpool setup. But it's worth trying a 442.
 

kidbob

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To be fair you are not wrong, personally my idea was centered around having two wide forwards Rashford on one side and a left footed right inside forward on the right, basically something close to Liverpool setup. But it's worth trying a 442.
My main takeaway is that the likes of talented players like Martial and Rashford are the least of our worries and improving the team around them to suit their strengths is the way forward! A bit of competition never hurt either.
 

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Painful looking through the thread for someone to finally tell us what was said.
 

flappyjay

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What do you mean? There are other abilities he can improve (positioning, heading, etc), but finishing is his main weakness as striker.
His ability with his back to goal is horrendous. He doesn't know the basics of being a striker. He thinks of it as mostly just scoring goals.
 

acnumber9

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Haven't watched the video but Daniel Taylor did an article in the Athletic about him where he claims that one of his teammates in the LVG era told him that he was convinced Martial ducked a game because he couldn't be bothered. He trained properly shortly after.

Also quotes Ranieri who said he had a poor mentality whilst at Monaco, broadly that he wasn't driven enough.
That would not surprise me at all. This is a guy who has on a number of occasions pulled out of a game on the day of the match only to be back the next week and went awol last summer.
 

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Martial scores - what a player

Martial doesn’t score - not good enough to be a number 9
That's not what the discussion is about, at least not in the video. Everyone can see that Martial has enough quality about him to be great but so far he's still not been great. Good, not great. If United want to be a great club again then they need to have someone great up top. Every club needs that. Is Martial that player? His ambition and work rate is being questioned here. Manchester United under Sir Alex had the atmosphere of celebrating a win on the pitch but on the way back to the dressing room the focus is set on winning the next match. That's it. Winners don't rest. Ole has that mentality and his job is to instill that in his players or find players who will have that mentality or at least be suject to that mentality. We can all see that the group of players we have now don't have it. A player here and there sure but collectively no.
 

AkaAkuma

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Painful looking through the thread for someone to finally tell us what was said.
Daniel Taylor is too polite and lacks concrete opinions, so it wasnt an attack on Martial. He basically just questioned if he has the attitude to be the next Henry, or whether he will be just a good to sometimes very good player.

  • A United player told him off record that Martial skipped a Norwich game based on an injury, but trained the next day.
  • He found quotes from Ranieri in the french press questioning Martial.
  • Jardim subbed him on at 60min in a televised game, and then took him off after 80min. Apparently he found it hard to motivate him.
  • Mourinho wanted him to perform, but ultimately wanted him out as he couldnt motivate him.
  • He's pulled out of French squads, but played for United the next week.
  • Nobody in France is talking about him.
 

wolvored

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What has that to do with Martial or patience? You can purchase Haaland and add him to our current team and there is no guarantee that he will be a success or that he is close to be the finished product.
But you know after 4 seasons Martial isnt consistent enough to be the main striker. Surely even with your blinkers on you can see that.