Danny Welbeck | 2011-14 Performances

Discussion in 'Player Performances Forum' started by KM, Jul 31, 2011.

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  1. May 21, 2014

    Escobar Poster originally known as Michel04

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    Do you count him as one of the top 10 strikers in the world? And who outside of Manchester / UK would call him a world class talent? As I said, I just don't rate him that highly and think he's a good squad player. If you consider him a world class player or on the verge of being world class, then you have your very own definition. Which top team would take him and make him a first teamer? No one is saying he's not a good player, but that he won't develop into a world class striker over the next 2 years.

    BTW, leading England means feck all to be honest when you look at the crap they had upfront in the last 10 years
  2. May 21, 2014

    mazhar13 Full Member

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    Welbeck has scored 2 goals in 12 sub appearances this season. Most of his sub appearances have lasted 13 - 25 minutes. He's had a couple of 30-minute cameos along with a couple of full second half appearances. His goals were in sub appearances that lasted more than 25 minutes.

    Do consider that, during most of those sub appearances, our balance was thrown off the balcony (3 strikers playing up front, Rooney as the central midfielders with only 1 proper central midfielder, 0-1 proper creative player in the side). His goals have come in situations where the team had some balance in it.

    Regarding the rest of your post, I agree, if Welbeck gets regular starts and gets 20+ goals that season, then someone like Rooney or van Persie could get 25+ or 30+ if given those regular appearances. However, would it not be worth it for Welbeck's development and the opportunity to have great strikers ready-made to replace van Persie and/or Rooney? van Gaal gave Muller a chance up front over established goalscorers such as Toni (scored 39 in 46 in the 2007/08 season) and Klose (21 in 47 in the same season) yet Muller only delivered 19 goals in 52 appearances. However, look at Muller now: he's racked up 20+ goals per season in his last two seasons.

    Welbeck hasn't had that privilege that Muller had, however. Plus, he hasn't played constantly at lower-level clubs like many of the great forwards of today and past have. Now, we're in this situation where Welbeck will have a make-or-break season with Man. Utd. Of course, he isn't at the level of van Persie and Rooney, now. However, I feel that if he gets the regular match time, we will have another great option in the team along with van Persie and Rooney for the forward roles.

    The question remains, though: should van Gaal give him more match time, then, so that he can refine himself and become an even better player? If so, where should he get this match time to refine himself?
  3. May 21, 2014

    dirkey Full Member

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    With regard to qualifying the balance of the team, or the number of minutes that Welbeck played when he came on, the fact of the matter is, you either include the goals and the sub appearances, or you don't include the goals and you make the stat the number of goals per start. Having it one way just skews things.

    I believe we've (or perhaps with someone else) had this debate previously about Muller. Obviously Van Gaal saw something in Muller to decide he warranted a chance ahead of the more proven players. Fergie & Moyes didn't, with Welbeck. I tend, from what I have seen (and bear in mind they saw him training every day too) to agree with that opinion, that he's fine to rotate in there. In my opinion I don't believe it would be worthwhile dropping proven international strikers for Welbeck, from what I've seen of him, no. Maybe he will get to the level of those guys if he plays up there regularly, but what will be the use in that, given we will have alienated both of them and they'll have left! So basically, we lose 2 proven players in the slight hope that Welbeck becomes as good as them.

    Incidentally, there are some players who blossom later on in their careers, however with the really top class players, they tend to be obvious from an early age - Henry, Van Persie, Rooney etc. Obviously you do get the odd Drogba, but I would say more often than not, they show it from an early age.

    Personally I think the guy gets a lot of match time. He has already played over 100 first team games. I don't personally feel he's done enough to warrant taking away from either of the 1st choice lads game time, but then, I'm not a Champions League winning manager. We'll see what Louis does when he gets here.
  4. May 21, 2014

    Plugsy New Member

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    Muller is only one year older than Welbeck and I can't believe anyone would claim there isn't a chasm in difference of quality whether you want to compare Welbeck of today to Muller at any time these last 5 years.

    Muller looked quality in his first full season at Bayern when he was only 19/20 you could tell he'd be class. Welbeck is nearly 24 and he isn't even yet at that stage. That's the difference between quality and hoping against hope.
  5. May 21, 2014

    Giggsforever Full Member

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    Well it has been discussed before. That is when he is playing on the wing of course, he is just horrible at it. Take a look at the City game we lost 0-3, that was the worst of them all.

    I found one pic from the game. Carrick and Cleverly is in a ok position, Fellaini is pressing to soon and should be more centrally and Welbeck should have been at the top of the F. This has been very familiar with him on the wing, has literally made me scream at the tv at times this year. It's just the case when we are defending, only commenting on that.

    [​IMG]
  6. May 21, 2014

    Plugsy New Member

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    You need to work on your circles mate
  7. May 21, 2014

    Giggsforever Full Member

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    :lol::lol: Not my circles, just found the picture like that. Agree that it's possible to make them more.... round.
  8. May 21, 2014

    mazhar13 Full Member

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    The difference between Muller and Welbeck was that Muller was given chances as a forward from a young age. After a couple of seasons up front, he was shunted out wide to fill in for the injured Robben. However, his first few years as a central player left him in good stead for the coming years.

    With Welbeck, however, that wasn't the case as he was being used out wide as often as he was up front ever since his introduction the first team. It was only during the 2011/12 season when he got a proper run up front.

    Also, at a young age, Welbeck showed lots of promise and potential quality, most notably in the goal he scored against Stoke City in his debut. In the Reserves, he was a standout player constantly troubling other teams with his quality, including the best Reserve team of that time in Arsenal.

    Welbeck had the tools to become a great player. However, he wasn't given the opportunity to refine those skills and develop himself. We see this now with him lacking composure at some 1-on-1 opportunities and some bad movement and positioning as a striker.

    The past doesn't matter, now. We're at the stage where Welbeck has to prove himself to van Gaal in any way necessary. Of course, I would have preferred if we didn't get van Persie in the summer of 2012 and had Welbeck and Chicharito become more established in the first team. Now that this is not the case, we have to make do with Welbeck who has yet to cement a spot in the first team.

    At this stage, it is risky to play Welbeck ahead of the more established van Persie and Rooney, up front. That I agree with, definitely. However, I disagree with the notion that he never showed promise and was always looking like an average player. To me, he showed that he was capable of breaking into the first team and establishing himself there for a long time. At this point, though, Welbeck's still walking on the tightrope rather than having reached the other end. Now is his time to show that he can be a key player to the team if not a first-team player.
  9. May 21, 2014

    dirkey Full Member

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    I'm going to snip your reply right here and say the difference between them is ability. Oceans, and oceans of ability.
    Sure poor Bebe hasn't had a run up front either, maybe that's the difference between him and Muller? Muller obviously warranted his chance. Welbeck has played plenty, as most people can see. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I personally feel he has played more often than he should have.
  10. May 21, 2014

    dirkey Full Member

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    Good Lord. I snipped too soon in my past reply. We would be stuck on 19 now, had we gone into that season with Danny, and not Robin, leading the line.
  11. May 21, 2014

    Plugsy New Member

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    I have a few regrets these last couple of seasons, not having a Welbeck/Hernandez forward partnership isn't one of the,
  12. May 21, 2014

    mazhar13 Full Member

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    I agree. Muller has shown that he has more ability than Welbeck at this stage.

    However, "oceans, and oceans of ability" back then? No. Both were very promising at a young age, and I wouldn't say that Muller was far, far ahead of Welbeck at that point.

    However, that doesn't matter now. As I have said tons of times, Muller's established, and Welbeck isn't. However, I disagree with the fact that Welbeck never showed the promise to make it into the first team. He did, for me, and if he didn't for you and other detractors, then so be it.

    In response to your second quote, we scored the same number of goals and obtained fewer points than last season. Plus, with Kagawa coming in, we had a fairly balanced setup. van Persie coming in brought lots of quality but unbalanced our team setup, and it showed when we had many unconvincing performances and a poor second half of the season where van Persie was poor until towards the last few matches of the season. I'll say no more so that we don't derail this thread.
  13. May 21, 2014

    dirkey Full Member

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    Kagawa has been distinctly average for us, Van Persie has been oustanding, so I don't really buy into the balanced v unbalanced set up. People tout that as they are fans of Kagawa, who has done nothing to warrant it. I'd rather my Rooney behind Van Persie winning hte league, than my Kagawa behind Welbeck winning flip all!
  14. May 22, 2014

    elmo Can never have too many Eevees

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    To be fair to him, I'm not sure I would want the chance to fall to Rooney either, and it's not a slight on either player. They both offer so much more to their games that could help us despite them not being the best of finishers in our squad.
  15. May 22, 2014

    elmo Can never have too many Eevees

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    I think Van Gaal would love Welbeck. He's willing to play wherever the team needs him and with some improvement in his decision making, he can make the step up into being a top class striker.
  16. May 22, 2014

    ricky-romeo Full Member

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    :drool::drool::drool:
  17. May 22, 2014

    Plugsy New Member

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    But look at the players he'll have available either with or without additions. It's a heck of a stretch to put Welbeck anywhere near the front of that queue. So I don't see where this game time to progress is going to come from, especially when you consider we're likely to have a much reduced fixture list this year. He's going to want to get us back on track in as short a time as possible.

    He'll have Mata who is roughly the same age bracket as Welbeck, a much beter player and vastly more experienced, Kagawa of roughly the same age bracket and vastly more experienced, Rooney who is older but the rest still applies and Januzaj who much younger and has a lot more promise and is probably already more reliable. If we take as a given RVP's involvement and assume the signing of Kroos to complete the 'attacking' prospects of the front line and the midfield, it surely has to be a heck of an argument to suggest that a 24 year old who might one day with a lot of practice perhaps develop into a top class striker, is going to get anywhere near that team aside from squad rotation (which may not be a huge issue for us this year due to lack of European football) or an injury crisis.
  18. May 22, 2014

    Speak Step up to my misogyny soapbox

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    Of all of our strikers, I'd go for Hernandez.
    But I rate Rooney as at least as clinical as van Persie. Van Persie will score the unfathomable goals. But for one-on-ones, I'd go with Rooney.

    But I see your point.
  19. May 22, 2014

    Plugsy New Member

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    If they don't have much time to think e.g if it's just a one touch 'instinct' hit then I''d go with Hernandez. If it's a one on one with the keeper with time on the ball I'd go either RVP or Rooney with the former perhaps edging it.
  20. May 22, 2014

    Amadaeus Pochettino's mother

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    Only few strikers are considered world class at Welbeck age and even then, they get labelled that ephitet because they were being played consistently for their club. A privilege that Welbeck has not gotten since the 2011/2012 season at United.

    I am not sure what your definition of a top team is, but neither of Chelsea, Arsenal, Tottenaham, inter, Roma, aletico madrid(depature of Costa), or dortmund(departure of Lewandowski) will have/had strikers that would omit Welbeck from their starting eleven. Moreover, it is not about going to a top club, as Sturridge showed when he went to a struggling Liverpool side. He could develop at a club like Everton or Southampton, who could achieve what Aletico Madrid did under simeone and become a world beater at that mid tier club. I am pretty sure Diego Costa or Robert lewandowski will not be the only players in football that will come from relatively unknown and become world class in a space of a few years. Welbeck has the potential as his all round game is easiliy one of the best in our squad, only hindered with the indecive factor in the final third of his game.

    Leading England line may mean feck all to you, but leading United at the age of 21 does not, which as a result showed the potential he had at an early age.
  21. May 22, 2014

    dirkey Full Member

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    That's interesting now, I remember when the ball fell to Rooney in 2011, myself and my mate were up off our seats before he'd even hit it, you just knew it was going in.
  22. May 22, 2014

    elmo Can never have too many Eevees

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    Most strikers usually hit their stride once they hit their mid 20s though. It's only those strikers who don't have much to grow, eg Owen, or those who were physically mature at an early age, eg Rooney, that dominated at an early age, so Welbeck's could still end up with some major improvement.

    Welbeck will get games under Van Gaal for sure, even if we take RVP as a certain starter. Welbeck will surely challenge Rooney for the other spot as apart from Saha, Rooney has never really played well with a partnering striker and Rooney's and RVP's track record means that you can be certain at least one of them will be out injured at some point in the season.
  23. May 22, 2014

    elmo Can never have too many Eevees

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    If you're talking about that overhead goal against City, it's more luck than finishing. Yes it took great skill to pull it off, but you could get Rooney to repeat it a 100 times and he'll have trouble replicating it even once.
  24. May 22, 2014

    Wednesday at Stoke Full Member

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    I'd be delighted if Welbeck becomes as good as Saha. To his credit, Danny stays healthy and durable despite the workload he puts in every appearance.
  25. May 22, 2014

    Pogue Mahone Poster of the year 2008

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    This has to be a parody account.

    Own up, Hectic...
  26. May 22, 2014

    dirkey Full Member

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    Eh no. The post you quoted mentioned the ball falling to Rooney in a Champions League final, you mentioned you weren't sure you'd want it to fall to him. I was talking about the ball falling to Rooney in the 2011 Champions League Final. I'd be surprised if Welbeck hit the target with that chance under that pressure, let alone scored.
  27. Jul 24, 2014

    ottosec Full Member

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    No love for Danny? Thought he did very well last night, especially considering he's got only 3 days of training or so.

    If he can step up his game a level this year, I think he can get into the first team.
  28. Jul 24, 2014

    Shark @NotShark

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    If LVG can improve his shooting and finishing, he'll be a dangerous player. Until then, he'll be continued to be used as a squad player that's neat and tidy on the ball and gets a lot of chances but fails to convert most.

    Good first goal from him this morning though, more of that Danny!
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  29. Jul 24, 2014

    ZDwyr Full Member

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    I think LvG will love him. I've always rated Danny, and I think he will really push for a starting spot. He's a smart player, he's mobile, he's athletic, and he is a very good player when it comes to intricate passing. He has so many attributes. He obviously has to become a little more clinical but I really believe he is going to be good. Very good.
  30. Jul 24, 2014

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

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    Everyone's too busy buzzing from Herrera's performance lol, but as you said, he did very well yesterday, and deservedly got his goal. Was a great finish!

    I think Van Gaal will really like Welbeck, and as I said before today's game, because he's direct when he gets the ball and uses his pace to run in behind, he'll be more of an ideal partner for Rooney or Van Persie, who both like to drop off.
  31. Jul 24, 2014

    jason93 New Member

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    I've never really rated Welbeck but last night was a cracking finish and I've seen him do it a few times before. Ironically enough, most people don't mention his shot when talking about his qualities, it's mostly in-depth shite like "workrate" and "hold-up play", I always thought they were excuses made for him cause he was so poor at decision making and scoring goals. Which are inevitably much more important when you want to win matches.

    Still think he's a bad winger if I'm honest. If he played more like an inside forward I might like him more.
  32. Jul 24, 2014

    Dante Bang Average but can post Blindfolded for 15 secs

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    Both his goal and his assist for Rooney's second were low, drilled side-foots. That could be a technique he's been working on. It'd certainly help with the accuracy of his final ball. Hopefully it can become a signature shot and people will finally realise what a top player he is.
  33. Jul 24, 2014

    Amadaeus Pochettino's mother

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    No surprise to me that Welbeck put on a great performance yesterday. The only problem going into next season is whether Van Gaal would make him a consistent regular and start him ahead of either Rooney or Van Persie. If Van Gaal does that, I am sure he will repay the faith in him and have a Ramsey-esque season.

    Nevertheless, I do not care much about the goal he scored, but his all round play, work ethic and link up should please any top manager.
  34. Jul 24, 2014

    Shark @NotShark

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    I don't understand this. He's always had those qualities, it's his goal scoring that needs to actually improve. He needs to start scoring more goals like that and in or around the box.
  35. Jul 24, 2014

    bishblaize Full Member

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    At the mo Danny has a great opportunity this season because he has pace, which Rooney, Mata and RvP seem to lack
    LVG will certainly have the balls to drop Rooney for Wellbeck if he thinks Danny offers something he wants. That should be good for getting the best from Wellbeck and Rooney.
  36. Jul 24, 2014

    Glanville95 Full Member

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    He's a very good player and I'm never surprised when he puts in performances like last night (bar the long range goal!). I find the criticism he receives quite baffling and unjustified if I'm honest.

    He's a player van Gaal will appreciate I'm sure and if we do persist with the 3-5-2/5-3-2, he will work better in tandem with either Rooney or van Persie than the latter two will together.
  37. Jul 24, 2014

    Amadaeus Pochettino's mother

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    I think both Hernandez and Welbeck offer pace which Rooney and Van Persie lacks. They offer a much more balanced side in the attack of a 1-3-4-3 system. The only hinderance might be their status as players, as such it will be hard to imagine either Rvp or Roiney being dropped.
  38. Jul 24, 2014

    Walters_19_MuFc Full Member

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    Why should Rooney be the one getting dropped? Rooney and Welbeck have arguably been our best strike partnership in the last few years. We even saw that last season when Welbeck had a few games up top together. They understand each others movement very well.








    The question should be whether Van Gaal has the balls to drop RVP.
  39. Jul 24, 2014

    saivet Full Member

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    Yeah, Rooney and Welbeck have a very good understanding of each other. Will be interesting to see what LvG does.
  40. Jul 24, 2014

    Sammyjunn New Member

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    Thats the difference, Welbeck makes it easier to play with, you just give a simple through ball and he is at it, Mata also almost put him 1 on 1, he knows when to make the runs, he makes them and is very pacey.
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