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2020-21 Performances


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Raven

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I have seen what Hoddle and Owen said that same thing. You are right. He can't dive to the right because of his starting position. I have seen it numerous times from different angles.
You have to make the ball travel the longest distance to give you the best chance of making a save.
Remember if he was aiming for the far post he would have to get it over the wall and then bend it into the far post. That's a heck of a long time in the air than just putting it in the near post.
This is just basic.
People talking otherwise has no clue about goal keeping. The same way they blame him for the first goal. Nothing much he can do about it. Even if he was commanding in the air he is not going to save it probably. This is why near post corners are so difficult to defend against. This is why United rarely scores from corners because we don't know how to take a near post corner.
Oh, well if Hoddle and Michael fecking Owen said it, it must be true. Honestly.
 

arnie_ni

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No you don't. You make the wall depending on what angle the kick is being taken. It's basic mistake he made today. You always make the taker take the longest route. The more time the ball is in the air the more chance you have of saving it.
You should me a fk from the same position where the keeper stands at the near post and puts the wall to block the far post.

It doesn't happen. I've never seen it in my 30 years
 

arnie_ni

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Although I'm sceptical about De Gea's positioning on these two recent free kick, I'm not sure what you're saying is right. I mean, it sounds logical, but don't goalkeepers almost always position the wall at the near post for these free kicks? And then they stand slightly closer to the far post, thereby encouraging the taker to shoot towards the near post.

Or maybe I'm going crazy because it's nearly 1:30 AM...
Yes the do. And the fk goes in you nod your head to the fk taker and say job well done.

Did we ever say someone should be saving Beckhams fks over the years? No we said class fk, unstoppable
 

MadDogg

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I actually thought he was quite weak on the first goal. It's like he started coming for it, realised that he wasn't going to get there (I don't really blame him for that because it was a brilliantly placed corner) but instead of trying to make himself big to block any knock on he almost ducked down and made himself small. He may not have saved it anyway but I just feel his body movements actually increased the area that the attacker could score into.
 

Annihilate Now!

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I have seen what Hoddle and Owen said that same thing. You are right. He can't dive to the right because of his starting position. I have seen it numerous times from different angles.
You have to make the ball travel the longest distance to give you the best chance of making a save.
Remember if he was aiming for the far post he would have to get it over the wall and then bend it into the far post. That's a heck of a long time in the air than just putting it in the near post.
This is just basic.
People talking otherwise has no clue about goal keeping. The same way they blame him for the first goal. Nothing much he can do about it. Even if he was commanding in the air he is not going to save it probably. This is why near post corners are so difficult to defend against. This is why United rarely scores from corners because we don't know how to take a near post corner.
Approximately zero keepers do this.

Zero.

If there is a free kick, the wall covers the short side, and the keeper covers the other... As @arnie_ni rightly points out, that is how it has been for the history of football and their are literally thousands of free kicks to back this up. However I would find it interesting if you could find just one free kick from a side position where the keeper positions himself where the taker is encouraged to go far corner... Just one.

The reason for this by the way is because if its the other way around the taker has an easier time of getting the ball over the wall and into the net because it has further to travel - so in theory he can put more height on the ball.
 

Oranges038

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I have seen what Hoddle and Owen said that same thing. You are right. He can't dive to the right because of his starting position. I have seen it numerous times from different angles.
You have to make the ball travel the longest distance to give you the best chance of making a save.
Remember if he was aiming for the far post he would have to get it over the wall and then bend it into the far post. That's a heck of a long time in the air than just putting it in the near post.
This is just basic.
People talking otherwise has no clue about goal keeping. The same way they blame him for the first goal. Nothing much he can do about it. Even if he was commanding in the air he is not going to save it probably. This is why near post corners are so difficult to defend against. This is why United rarely scores from corners because we don't know how to take a near post corner.
It's no where near the same, but I used to do this in Sunday league on frees like this. As a keeper my own defenders thought I was crazy for telling them to do it this way. But from my point of view, I could see the ball better for a start, you dont have to worry about the taker doing you on your side and unless it goes into the far top corner you have more chance to save it. That was the logical thought process for me anyway.

I have always wondered why pro goalkeepers don't try this tactic, it would completely mess with the kick takers thought process and style for a freekick. Maybe, pro players will just stick it far top corner and score and it will be seen as stupid. But how many freekicks even hit the target from there and how many are even scored? From what data I've seen by looking it up about 1 in ten or less gets scored

The idea of the wall is so engrained in the game and this is how it's always been done. These days it's hard to tell if it is a help or not in these scenarios, you basically block off your line of sight for almost half the balls flight and giving the opponent an area to aim for. If he hits it and scores then it's bravo him, as a keeper there is nothing you can do, there's nothing else like it in the game where you would do that.

I genuinely thought De Gea should have kept that one out yesterday, he gets a hand to it and it's across the line when he does, but he dives backwards, if he dives correctly he probably gets there and keeps it out.

With modern balls the way they move and can swerve I am surprised that this hasn't changed at all, either to remove the wall completely or change it's position, it would be interesting to see if more or less hit the target or scored.
 

tomaldinho1

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Any news on his knee?
 

Foxbatt

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1. People critical of Hoddle. They showed it in slow motion the fault.
As another OP said it's basics. It's physics. One step closer and the more distance the ball has to travel the more time the keeper gets to get to the ball. It's the same as a high long pass.
2. If anyone look at it in different angles with slow motion they can see DeGeas starting position. I think he underestimated.
 

Foxbatt

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Blaming DDG on the free kick. Never his fault in a million years. Did well to get so close to it.
It's his fault because it's his responsibility to organise the wall. He should have encouraged the taker to go for the far post. That means the one wall one step to the left and DeGea one step to the right.
Going to the far post gives him more time to get to the ball as it's more in the air. It won't be coming in a straight line as it has to go over the wall and then bend it too. If he had been one step to the right he would have saved it.
On the other hand nothing he could do about the first goal.
This is why I have always said that we don't score from corners because we take a long one that's high in the air and the defense has more time to organise rather than a near post one where once the near post flick is on there is minimal time to react to defend it.
 

arnie_ni

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It's his fault because it's his responsibility to organise the wall. He should have encouraged the taker to go for the far post.
You keep saying this but you have yet to provide one example of any keeper ever doing this
 

Paxi

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Don’t blame him for either goal but you can see the JWP was targetting his weakness. Every corner aimed to drop under the crossbar. Which isn’t ideal.
He was swinging them in to near post against Henderson too. Southampton deliberately crowded the space in front of both our goalkeepers.
 

Foxbatt

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You keep saying this but you have yet to provide one example of any keeper ever doing this
Because others do that. It's when United play that I look at it. Ask any good coach where should a keeper position himself? To get the ball to travel the longest distance or the shortest distance? It's basic logic that the more time the ball is in the air the more time the keeper has to get to it. It's not rocket science.
 

arnie_ni

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Because others do that. It's when United play that I look at it. Ask any good coach where should a keeper position himself? To get the ball to travel the longest distance or the shortest distance? It's basic logic that the more time the ball is in the air the more time the keeper has to get to it. It's not rocket science.
Some me an example. It doesn't happen. No keeper ever stands at the near post and puts the wall to the far post. It doesn't happen
 

arnie_ni

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He was swinging them in to near post against Henderson too. Southampton deliberately crowded the space in front of both our goalkeepers.
Only difference was cavani won the near post header.

Henderson didn't come either
 

arnie_ni

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Shimo

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Some me an example. It doesn't happen. No keeper ever stands at the near post and puts the wall to the far post. It doesn't happen
He keeps going on about physics and well the physics is why there no real examples of any keeper positioning the wall on the other side in a similar situation - because when you go near post, you have less time to get the ball up and down and have to be incredibly good at it - that is why when people like JWP do it - it's just a great FK. Placing the wall further away makes it that much easier for a player to get the ball up and down - why the heck do walls encroach, because they are trying to make it harder for the FK taker, they don't back off further - because the hardest part is trying to just clear the wall enough .
 

izec

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Only difference was cavani won the near post header.

Henderson didn't come either
De Gea came for it half arsed and frightened and ended up in no mans land. You either go out 100% and clear it or you stay on the line (if the ball isn't that close). De Gea did neither of the two
 

sullydnl

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I'm confused. Is @Foxbatt saying that the wall should have been a few inches more to De Gea's left and De Gea a few inches more to his right? Or is he saying that the wall should just have been set up to protect the far post outright while De Gea got into position to protect the near side?

Because one of those is a subtle change in positioning, while the other makes zero sense.
 

sullydnl

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Correct, it would have been a mistake to do so.
More than a mistake, it would have been utterly brainless to do so. It was silly criticism from people who are primed to criticize De Gea any time he doesn't go for the ball, even when that's the right call.

Similarly, if Henderson starts and claims a cross then those same people will say "that's what De Gea doesn't do", even if it's the sort of easy ball that De Gea actually does claim.

Once people know a player's strengths and weaknesses they twist their opinions of what happened in the game to fit those pre-existing narratives.
 

arnie_ni

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I'm confused. Is @Foxbatt saying that the wall should have been a few inches more to De Gea's left and De Gea a few inches more to his right? Or is he saying that the wall should just have been set up to protect the far post outright while De Gea got into position to protect the near side?

Because one of those is a subtle change in positioning, while the other makes zero sense.
Hes has said both. He started by saying put the wall to block the far post.

One is never done and is totally asinine.

The other blocks de geas view entirely so would cancel any advantage he thinks is gained from better positioning
 

Paxi

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More than a mistake, it would have been utterly brainless to do so. It was silly criticism from people who are primed to criticize De Gea any time he doesn't go for the ball, even when that's the right call.

Similarly, if Henderson starts and claims a cross then those same people will say "that's what De Gea doesn't do", even if it's the sort of easy ball that De Gea actually does claim.

Once people know a player's strengths and weaknesses they twist their opinions of what happened in the game to fit those pre-existing narratives.
Exactly its an agenda against De Gea at this point. Well it has been for a while actually.
 

arnie_ni

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Exactly its an agenda against De Gea at this point. Well it has been for a while actually.
He's not immune to criticism and he definitely isn't the keeper he used to be, be please only criticise him when he deserves it. So annoying
 

babablue

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For what it's worth, Tim Howard was the analyst on NBCSN in the US. According to him, he initially thought it was an error, but on re-watching, he came to the conclusion it was just a brilliant free kick. Apologies if someone else has already mentioned this.
 

Foxbatt

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I'm confused. Is @Foxbatt saying that the wall should have been a few inches more to De Gea's left and De Gea a few inches more to his right? Or is he saying that the wall should just have been set up to protect the far post outright while De Gea got into position to protect the near side?

Because one of those is a subtle change in positioning, while the other makes zero sense.
I am saying that the wall should have been one step to the left and DeGea one step to the right.
People make mistakes all the time. Keepers spill the ball, let it creep under their body etc. This is one of those things. He never was going to get the first goal. No way. Not even if he was extremely good in collecting high balls is he going to get it.
I will tell you why. When it's taken for a near post flick, he is taken out of the equation. It's up to the defense to stop it going beyond the near post. His position is just about centre. If the ball is flicked to the far post he has to turn. Our defensive set up for defending corners are bad.
That's why we need a player on the post. It is a safe guard for the keeper.

Now for the free kick, DeGea has to make the taker go to the far post. Simply because it's the longest route. When he sees DeGea can cover his near post ( by his position) he will go to the far post. If DeGea was one step to the right, he would have saved it. Why do I say that? Because even from his starting position he got a hand to it. One step right he would definitely have saved it.
If the taker went for the far post, he would have to get the ball over the wall. That means elevation and also a bend. It's not just elevation. The bend is important too because it has to curl into the far post. That's a fair bit of time in the air. Compared to the time it was coming into the near post. Keepers get beaten by the pace. Even if the ball was going into a corner if keepers have time they are going to save it.
This was what beat DeGea. Time he had to get to the ball. He didn't have enough time to get to the ball from his starting position.
If the ball had gone towards the far post he would have time to get to the ball.
Hope I have made myself clear?

I have no agenda against DeGea. In fact I think the coaching staff is letting him down time and again by not compensating for his weakness in coming out. I have said this before too. When we have a great shot stopper like DeGea then we need to get the defense organised to get the best out of him. You can't play as if it's VDS or Shilton in goal.
 

Volumiza

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He's not immune to criticism and he definitely isn't the keeper he used to be, be please only criticise him when he deserves it. So annoying
He isn’t quite the keeper he used to be but he is still one of the best in the game.

All this micro analysis of him not saving a great free kick is daft. DDG won’t be a reason for us not to win a title.
 

Foxbatt

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He isn’t quite the keeper he used to be but he is still one of the best in the game.

All this micro analysis of him not saving a great free kick is daft. DDG won’t be a reason for us not to win a title.
No he won't but the coaching staff would be. You simply can't play as if it's VDS in goal and it's Rio and Vidic in as CBs. The have to have the tactics for DeGea and Maguire and Lindelof. They don't have it. That's why we concede on corners and especially near post corners.
 

arnie_ni

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For what it's worth, Tim Howard was the analyst on NBCSN in the US. According to him, he initially thought it was an error, but on re-watching, he came to the conclusion it was just a brilliant free kick. Apologies if someone else has already mentioned this.
Dont think it has and its good to get a keepers pov
 

Volumiza

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No he won't but the coaching staff would be. You simply can't play as if it's VDS in goal and it's Rio and Vidic in as CBs. The have to have the tactics for DeGea and Maguire and Lindelof. They don't have it. That's why we concede on corners and especially near post corners.
Im sure it will come. The whole team is settling in nicely and I would still argue that DDG is world class. So even with the supposedly poor goalkeeper coaching and sub par defenders we still had the 3rd best defensive record in the league last year.
 

Cecc07

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The treatment that De Gea get from some of the fans is embarrassing. I thought we (United fans) were proud that we support our players. But this it is beginning to look like Madrid forum. I'm starting to believe that some people are hoping he fail in order Henderson to get a chance. But this is nothing new, we have a history of overrate our players that come from the academy.
 

sullydnl

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So, anybody asking the question how is he performing this season compared to rivals goalkeepers?
In terms of stats it's inconclusive.

So far this season he has officially made no errors leading to either a chance or a goal in the PL, as opposed to 1 for Allison (that didn't lead to a goal) and 2 for Ederson (one of which did lead to a goal). The worst keeper being Kepa, who made 3 errors which all resulted in goals.

However, De Gea hadn't made any errors after 10 gameweeks in his last two seasons either, so it's too early to tell really. His worst form in each of the last three seasons came in the second half, I think. So we won't really know until the season is finished.

In his best seasons he was only making one error that lead to a goal each season, whereas in the last two it was three or four. We'll see how he ends up this season.

Side note: those stats really put Kepa's awfulness into perspective. He's made a whole season's worth of bad-DeGea mistakes within three PL starts. :eek:
 

westmeath

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It's his fault because it's his responsibility to organise the wall. He should have encouraged the taker to go for the far post. That means the one wall one step to the left and DeGea one step to the right.
Going to the far post gives him more time to get to the ball as it's more in the air. It won't be coming in a straight line as it has to go over the wall and then bend it too. If he had been one step to the right he would have saved it.
On the other hand nothing he could do about the first goal.
This is why I have always said that we don't score from corners because we take a long one that's high in the air and the defense has more time to organise rather than a near post one where once the near post flick is on there is minimal time to react to defend it.
I’m going to have to ask you to explain how you organise the wall so that the opponent targets the far post. If you’ve cracked that then you have broken new ground in football tactics and I applaud you.
 

Foxbatt

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I’m going to have to ask you to explain how you organise the wall so that the opponent targets the far post. If you’ve cracked that then you have broken new ground in football tactics and I applaud you.
It's not a new tactic. It's what any good coach will tell you. Make sure you cover your near post. Free kick takers also consider the position of the keeper and the wall.
Why do you cover your near post? Because it's the shortest distance for the ball to travel. Keepers get beaten by the pace of the ball. If it's slow they can cover the ground and get to it.
In this case if he was one step to the right he will either save it or else the kicker would have to direct it to the far post over the wall and bend it too and he would have time to get to it. These are fine margins of course. One step is between a goal and a save.