[VeevaVee]

For all the talk of Alisson and Ederson being so much better, in the PL this season they both have just one assist despite apparently being amazing at this, De Gea beats Alisson on high claims, has a much better save percentage than Ederson and a very similar one to Alisson (but we all know no one else is making some of the saves De Gea does), and Ederson and DDG are tied on 1 error leading to a goal.

Funnily enough, I assume Ederson’s was from his short pass while the team was under pressure.

 

[Longshanks]

That's one big load of nonsense. You can put Ederson and Neuer combined regen GK on the ball if you put a crap CM like Fred and no natural striker in the team you will have little control of the game. You all love to blubber about tiki taka, play out from the back, GK involved, yeah we've all seen City, Bayern, Barcelona play some beautiful football, however I am yet to see them do it with crap technical footballers in the middle of the team.

I'm also yet to see them do it with a crap technical GK. And being as though this is our current GK's Performance thread, talking about the CM's seems somewhat off topic.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

For all the talk of Alisson and Ederson being so much better, in the PL this season they both have just one assist despite apparently being amazing at this, De Gea beats Alisson on high claims, has a much better save percentage than Ederson and a very similar one to Alisson (but we all know no one else is making some of the saves De Gea does), and Ederson and DDG are tied on 1 error leading to a goal.

Funnily enough, I assume Ederson’s was from his short pass while the team was under pressure.

That can’t be right. De Gea made two horrendous errors this season. One against Brentford. One against Spurs.

 

[Kostov]

I'm also yet to see them do it with a crap technical GK. And being as though this is our current GK's Performance thread, talking about the CM's seems somewhat off topic.

The whole discussion about the supposedly crap GK play on this instance was very much connected with CM and striker involved. So it was pretty relevant to explain the mostly non existent issue some of you drum on here.

 

[VeevaVee]

That can’t be right. De Gea made two horrendous errors this season. One against Brentford. One against Spurs.

Just taking it from the PL site but either way, it’s not night and day

 

[Corey]

That can’t be right. De Gea made two horrendous errors this season. One against Brentford. One against Spurs.

We won 2-0 against Spurs though so it can't be an error leading to a goal? Unless you're thinking of another game.

 

[Longshanks]

The whole discussion about the supposedly crap GK play on this instance was very much connected with CM and striker involved. So it was pretty relevant to explain the mostly non existent issue some of you drum on here.

Not really no, whoever was playing at CM or ST wouldn't have had an affect on what De Gea did. The issue in this situation were De Gea's questionable choice to hoof it and then more importantly the quality or lack thereoff of the hoof.

It's a big assumption to say that a better more technical CM or ST would of guaranteed a different outcome, but a better more technical GK? Almost definitely dosent put us in what was ultimately a vulnerable position where we had limited control from a position where we had possession and control.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We won 2-0 against Spurs though so it can't be an error leading to a goal? Unless you're thinking of another game.

My bad. Everton. Not Spurs.

 

[Sylar]

It was passed back to him because they had nowhere to go. Why would he then pass it back to a defender that is now on the backfoot with attackers bearing down on them even more?

Varane passed it back as he has no passing options. When the ball came to ddg, he had Martinez under no pressure to pass to. If the other player had pushed onto Martinez it would have left Shaw free, otherwise Martinez has space to run into. We had a player advantage at the back

However it still needed a worldly free kick after a non challenge on their defender who headed it, plus an advance where we could have fouled earlier on.

There's a lot that happened after the free kick, but this is a ddg performance thread. In terms of shot stopping he was really good, but the kick wasnt great under the circumstances. Saying that he saved the team a few times that game so he really needed his team to save him before the free kick

 

[Kostov]

Not really no, whoever was playing at CM or ST wouldn't have had an affect on what De Gea did. The issue in this situation were De Gea's questionable choice to hoof it and then more importantly the quality or lack thereoff of the hoof.

It's a big assumption to say that a better more technical CM or ST would of guaranteed a different outcome, but a better more technical GK? Almost definitely dosent put us in what was ultimately a vulnerable position where we had limited control from a position where we had possession and control.

The kick was OK, and it's pretty basic thing after that. A striker who stands few meters away from the defender attacking the header and ball watching, then you have a CM who is a terrible footballer making a mess of a situation. Jeffrey fecking Schlupp, a failed striker/winger in our reserve team back in the day, makeshift CM who's preferred position is on the wing outsmarting and outplaying our supposedly good enough CM, but no a better CM would not have sorted this situation, only a better GK will make Fred do the basics right.

And are you actually saying that a more technical CM will not make the team have more control of the game, but a more technical GK will? What kind of crap is that? We lacked control because of DDG's kicking?

 

[JB7]

For all the talk of Alisson and Ederson being so much better, in the PL this season they both have just one assist despite apparently being amazing at this, De Gea beats Alisson on high claims, has a much better save percentage than Ederson and a very similar one to Alisson (but we all know no one else is making some of the saves De Gea does), and Ederson and DDG are tied on 1 error leading to a goal.

Funnily enough, I assume Ederson’s was from his short pass while the team was under pressure.

Talk about using stats selectively to suit an argument... Lets look over the full set of numbers for the three goalkeepers, shall we?

Crosses dealt with 22/23
1. Ederson 15/147 - 10.2%
2. Alisson - 6/202 - 3.0%
3. De Gea - 8/284 - 2.8%

Saves 22/23
(just so you're aware, number of saves and save % are pretty useless as they doesn't factor in the quality of shots stopped, as such they would count a 40 yard trickling shot the exact same as a 2 yard reaction wonder stop but I'll include them for you anyway.)
1. Alisson - 61 saves - 73.3% - plus 8.0 PSxG
2. De Gea - - 51 saves - 71.2% - minus 1.8 PSxG
3. Ederson - 29 saves - 62.5% - minus 3.9 PSxG

Sweeping 22/23
1. Alisson - 2.0 times per game
2. Ederson - 1.37 times per game
3. De Gea - 0.84 times per game

Long passing completion 22/23
1. Alisson - 564 passes total, 20.0% went long, 44.0% completed
2. Ederson - 619 passes total, 17.1% went long, 40.5% completed
3. De Gea - 471 passes total, 33.8% went long, 29.5% completed


However, we all know that shot prevention is not, and never has been, De Gea's game. People instead say that De Gea's shot stopping is so good it makes up for his failings, so I thought I'd be fair and look over the PSxG stats for the five seasons all three goalkeepers have been playing in the league because maybe this would support peoples view.

Saves (last 5 season seasons - since Alisson joined Liverpool; all 3 goalkeepers at their current clubs)
1. Alisson - plus 15.2 PSxG
2. Ederson - plus 0.3 PSxG
3. De Gea - minus 4.0 PSxG

To be clear - De Gea's much heralded shot stopping ability has been a net positive in one of the last five seasons. Alisson has been a positive in 4 of the 5 seasons, Ederson has been a positive in 3 of the 5 seasons.

 

[Longshanks]

The kick was OK, and it's pretty basic thing after that. A striker who stands few meters away from the defender attacking the header and ball watching, then you have a CM who is a terrible footballer making a mess of a situation. Jeffrey fecking Schlupp, a failed striker/winger in our reserve team back in the day, makeshift CM who's preferred position is on the wing outsmarting and outplaying our supposedly good enough CM, but no a better CM would not have sorted this situation, only a better GK will make Fred do the basics right.

And are you actually saying that a more technical CM will not make the team have more control of the game, but a more technical GK will? What kind of crap is that? We lacked control because of DDG's kicking?

Who is saying Fred is good enough? He is not but that is a discussion for a different thread. But in this case it was a combination of Casemerio and Fred that lost the midfield duel. Are you going to tell me Casemerio isn't good enough?

The point your are missing is that it is a duel that didn't need to take place in the first place because we had possession and control and weren't under that much pressure to really make De Gea kicking long at all worthwhile, and also the quality of the kick is quite simply not good enough at this level. It was an old fashioned up and under and didnt make it past the centre circle. That's not good enough anymore, good GK's kick it flat and fast now or at the very least they get good distance this kick was non of them. It's the sort of kick that wouldn't out of place in the Sunday leagues.

It was De Gea's poor play that directly led us to losing possession which then led to the free kick and the equaliser. Yes alot happened in-between but until De Gea did what he did we had complete control of possession under not alot of pressure.

It's not an isolated incident either it happens all the time in every game. That's why it's an issue.

 

[VeevaVee]

Talk about using stats selectively to suit an argument... Lets look over the full set of numbers for the three goalkeepers, shall we?

Crosses dealt with 22/23
1. Ederson 15/147 - 10.2%
2. Alisson - 6/202 - 3.0%
3. De Gea - 8/284 - 2.8%

Saves 22/23
(just so you're aware, number of saves and save % are pretty useless as they doesn't factor in the quality of shots stopped, as such they would count a 40 yard trickling shot the exact same as a 2 yard reaction wonder stop but I'll include them for you anyway.)
1. Alisson - 61 saves - 73.3% - plus 8.0 PSxG
2. De Gea - - 51 saves - 71.2% - minus 1.8 PSxG
3. Ederson - 29 saves - 62.5% - minus 3.9 PSxG

Sweeping 22/23
1. Alisson - 2.0 times per game
2. Ederson - 1.37 times per game
3. De Gea - 0.84 times per game

Long passing completion 22/23
1. Alisson - 564 passes total, 20.0% went long, 44.0% completed
2. Ederson - 619 passes total, 17.1% went long, 40.5% completed
3. De Gea - 471 passes total, 33.8% went long, 29.5% completed


However, we all know that shot prevention is not, and never has been, De Gea's game. People instead say that De Gea's shot stopping is so good it makes up for his failings, so I thought I'd be fair and look over the PSxG stats for the five seasons all three goalkeepers have been playing in the league because maybe this would support peoples view.

Saves (last 5 season seasons - since Alisson joined Liverpool; all 3 goalkeepers at their current clubs)
1. Alisson - plus 15.2 PSxG
2. Ederson - plus 0.3 PSxG
3. De Gea - minus 4.0 PSxG

To be clear - De Gea's much heralded shot stopping ability has been a net positive in one of the last five seasons. Alisson has been a positive in 4 of the 5 seasons, Ederson has been a positive in 3 of the 5 seasons.

They weren't cherry picked, they were what was available on the PL site that are related to De Gea's flaws.

Was waiting for xG stuff to come out. Kudos for putting so much effort in. Not sure what you trying to prove other than how similar they are overall, aside from sweeping.
He obviously does go for more long balls. No one was contending that one. His completion rate is bound to be worse if he's doing more of them.

Anyone who watches games can see that Alisson isn't making better saves than De Gea, but he has had some poor seasons.

 

[JB7]

Was waiting for xG stuff to come out. Kudos for putting so much effort in. Not sure what you trying to prove other than how similar they are overall, aside from sweeping.

Anyone who watches games can see that Alisson isn't making better saves than De Gea, but he has had some poor seasons.

Well the point is that they're not similar at all. Literally the only statistic that actually means anything between the three goalkeepers that is in any way "similar" is the percentage of crosses into the box De Gea and Alisson have dealt with this season (in every season gone by Alisson has wiped the floor with De Gea on that metric), and even this year De Gea still comes out last.

De Gea deals with the lowest percentage of balls into the box, is considerably less likely to deal with a ball in behind the defenders, his shot stopping is a net-negative, the defenders are less like to give De Gea the ball, he is far more likely to hoof it up the pitch when it does come to him and he is far more likely to give the ball away.

Not sure why you're dismissive of PSxG given it's the only stat that takes into account the quality of opportunities stopped by the goalkeeper, especially given that the pro-De Gea people were all over that same stat last year. Is it because they show four years out of five he's been shite at the one thing people claim he's good at? De Gea isn't even in Alisson's league at the one thing he's good at.

 

[VeevaVee]

Well the point is that they're not similar at all. Literally the only statistic that actually means anything between the three goalkeepers that is in any way "similar" is the percentage of crosses into the box De Gea and Alisson have dealt with this season (in every season gone by Alisson has wiped the floor with De Gea on that metric), and even this year De Gea still comes out last.

De Gea deals with the lowest percentage of balls into the box, is considerably less likely to deal with a ball in behind the defenders, his shot stopping is a net-negative, the defenders are less like to give De Gea the ball, he is far more likely to hoof it up the pitch when it does come to him and he is far more likely to give the ball away.

Not sure why you're dismissive of PSxG given it's the only stat that takes into account the quality of opportunities stopped by the goalkeeper, especially given that the pro-De Gea people were all over that same stat last year. Is it because they show four years out of five he's been shite at the one thing people claim he's good at? De Gea isn't even in Alisson's league at the one thing he's good at.

I'm dismissive of it because I've got eyes. Alisson doesn't make saves that De Gea does. Don't watch enough of Ederson to comment.
0.2% of a difference in something isn't even worth mentioning, nevermind the agg he gets over it, although I don't argue that it's not his strong point.
And yes, De Gea isn't used in the same way that the other two are. He is more likely to boot it yes, and therefore more likely to lose possession. I never said this long balls were great though.
As for being similar overall, the point was that it's swings and roundabouts outside of his weakest points.

Personally I don't believe Alisson would have anywhere those stats if he played for United over De Gea's time either.

 

[Longshanks]

I'm dismissive of it because I've got eyes. Alisson doesn't make saves that De Gea does. Don't watch enough of Ederson to comment.
0.2% of a difference in something isn't even worth mentioning, nevermind the agg he gets over it, although I don't argue that it's not his strong point.
And yes, De Gea isn't used in the same way that the other two are. He is more likely to boot it yes, and therefore more likely to lose possession. I never said this long balls were great though.
As for being similar overall, the point was that it's swings and roundabouts outside of his weakest points.

Personally I don't believe Alisson would have anywhere those stats if he played for United over De Gea's time either.

He would probably have better stats because he would of been busier. Allison is a miles better GK than De Gea. It's not even close.

De Gea probably has the measure on him on reflex saves but after that Allison wipes the floor with him. I would swap them in a heartbeat given the choice.

 

[berbatrick]

My bad. Everton. Not Spurs.

fa cup. was a terrible game from him and i thought he's going to fumble in the city game.
instead, city had 1 shot on target

 

[JB7]

I'm dismissive of it because I've got eyes. Alisson doesn't make saves that De Gea does. Don't watch enough of Ederson to comment.
0.2% of a difference in something isn't even worth mentioning, nevermind the agg he gets over it, although I don't argue that it's not his strong point.
And yes, De Gea isn't used in the same way that the other two are. He is more likely to boot it yes, and therefore more likely to lose possession. I never said this long balls were great though.
As for being similar overall, the point was that it's swings and roundabouts outside of his weakest points.

Personally I don't believe Alisson would have anywhere those stats if he played for United over De Gea's time either.

So Alisson can outperform De Gea by a massive distance consistently over five years at the one thing De Gea is supposed to be good at, but because you've got eyes, De Gea is better. Honestly this place.

 

[VeevaVee]

So Alisson can outperform De Gea by a massive distance consistently over five years at the one thing De Gea is supposed to be good at, but because you've got eyes, De Gea is better. Honestly this place.

If you think Alisson is better than De Gea at saves you’re an absolute maniac. It’s visible more than ever this season.

 

[berbatrick]

PSxG is a just a bad metric.
You can see the stat for individual matches a day later, remember the saves made/goals scored, and it doesn't seem to correspond with reality.

For the most recent one, Palace had a Psxg of 1.3 including the goal and the 1st half save, and 2 other shots on target. 1st half shot was an almost certain goal. Free kick was perfect. They alone should be close to 1.8. Plus, there was also a decent but saveable close-range header.

Which brings up an inherent problem with expected metrics, worse for saves than shots: it makes a somewhat binary thing into a continuous variable.
A team might have 3 decent but saveable shots, psxg 0.5 each, and the keeper saves 2 and concedes 1 - he's overperformed despite letting in an average shot. Another game might have 1 massive chance, an open tap-in, psxg 0.9 (i don't think it goes higher) - that keeper has supposedly underperformed.

He's made mistakes on 3 goals this season - Everton in the league was a saveable shot at the near post, Brentford and Everton in the FA Cup were disasters. Was lucky enough to miss the 6-3 derby, I'm guessing some of the later goals in that were saveable, but totally inconsequential.
Other than that he's saved everything that he could have, not given away easy rebounds - a massive asset of his - and pulled off a few wonder-saves too.

 

[JB7]

If you think Alisson is better than De Gea at saves you’re an absolute maniac. It’s visible more than ever this season.

He is miles ahead, it's not even close. Alisson is far more consistent with his shot stopping, which is backed up by the eye test and the statistics over a number of years.

There's no denying that De Gea can make outstanding stops, and over the years of course he's been busier than Alisson so had to make more of them, but he also lets more goals in that are saveable which is why his stats are worse. He's nowhere near as consistent. I'm not talking about glaring errors, although they do happen, Brentford (x2), Arsenal, Everton etc this season. I'm talking about goals that don't happen if De Gea does his job and cuts the balls out, Brighton, Brentford, City away etc, I'm talking about goals like the first at Aston Villa for example, where he inexplicably went for the ball with his feet and got nowhere near a very stoppable shot.

Last season was a perfect example of this with De Gea, he had a purple patch of form early on which got his PSxG up to about +10 at one stage which was outstanding, hence why his defenders on here were rimming the stat, by the end of the season it had dropped significantly because he had a dreadful second half of the season. He's just nowhere near as consistent over periods of time as someone like Alisson.

I'm not sure whether your severely underrating Alisson or being blinded by the flashier stops De Gea makes and allowing that to make you think he's consistent with stopping everything he should stop, but you're absolutely wrong. It's not even a debate.

 

[Desert Eagle]

If you think Alisson is better than De Gea at saves you’re an absolute maniac. It’s visible more than ever this season.

 

[Adnan]

When you overlook 2-3 very basic mistakes from players in the same instance to get back to DDG who kicked a long ball, which was not even bad to begin with, it has relevance to the point being made. And I am pretty sure you are one of the first to always point out how Fred can play a role here, well here it is he played role in this instance and it was very costly, yet you don't go in Fred's tweet to overanalyze it.


Noticeably bigger is 9cm taller than him, and it's Schlupp a guy who is not even a CM and very average player. It's funny how you find an easy excuse for Fred who also constantly does this. Rashford with his current form and impact I can understand why we all forgive him for that, but probably cost us this game the most.


It all stemmed from our inability to kill the game off, and it was always coming. We've scrapped through games the whole season and we were lucky and saved by DDG's wonder save in the first half to not be a goal down. DDG has been pretty good with his ball playing this whole season, and done that pass you crave to Lisandro or Varane plenty of times. In this instance he chose the long option because he probably felt was the best idea and he kicked it long and hard. And he did it OK, kept the ball in play in the middle, not kicking it out of reach and straight back to Palace. His teammates made a mess. I've seen Alison and Ederson do the same, no need to overanalyze and use the moment to have a dig at DDG.


This keepers you describe who are they? Will they make our 8 wins with 1 goal margin 3:0 games? Will they help us score 15 more goals while also provide the wonder saves that DDG brings? I also understand that there are some better GKs on the ball than DDG. But it's long before a GK should be our priority, DDG is still one of our best players.

I don't understand why you keep bringing Fred into this. I'm the same poster who said we wasted £50m on Fred before he even kicked a ball for us. Fred is a back up player right now and my focus is on seeing us improve in the first phase of the build up play. And the first phase of the build up starts with the keeper and our current keeper is a weakness in that regard, which will hamper any head coach who has ambitions of exerting, zonal and positional control in possession with a view to progressing the ball through the thirds and hence playing the game in the opponent's half.

We don't build play effectively from the first phase because the keeper is weak with the ball at his feet and hence we have resorted to kicking it long and attempting to win first and second balls. We had 30% possession against City because our keeper was constantly kicking it long and giving the ball away. We won the game but that isn't sustainable in the mid to long-term and we have to evolve and become a more dominant team in all phases of play, starting from the first phase and which begins with the keeper.

I don't crave the pass that he should've made to Martinez, because it's a simple pass. And all it requires is a bit of composure that was lacking in that passage of play, which would've seen us manage/see out the game in the dying minutes. It's actually frustrating to see him kick the ball away rather than keep possesion by passing the ball.

If ten Hag wants to impose his style of play, then that starts with the keeper. I couldn't care less about wonder saves whilst being rooted to one's line. I care about a keeper being proactive and aiding the development of the positional play principles that begin in the first phase of the build up. And when a team has a keeper who is proactive and has the ability to enhance the build up play, he will naturally have less to do. Because he'll not only give you the ability to make saves on his line but also make saves whilst coming off his line and closing down attackers. As well the ability to bait the press on the ball and open up passing angles to circumvent the opponent's high pressure game.

 

[Adnan]

Those simple passes would’ve invited immediate pressure anyway. They had nowhere to go with it, which is why it was passed back to him in the first place.

That's exactly why you need a much better keeper on the ball who will invite pressure and bait the opponent's press which will open up space for the outfield players.

Below is a recent example of the Brighton keeper doing just that against Liverpool. Which created a numerical superiority for Brighton in the first phase. And it forced Klopp to sit off.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[Adnan]

@JB7 Good posts mate, completely agree.

 

[golden_blunder]

As things stand I don’t think it’s a priority compared to a striker and another midfielder

 

[VeevaVee]

That's exactly why you need a much better keeper on the ball who will invite pressure and bait the opponent's press which will open up space for the outfield players.

Below is a recent example of the Brighton keeper doing just that against Liverpool. Which created a numerical superiority for Brighton in the first phase. And it forced Klopp to sit off.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Some of those passes are very good in execution but some are a liability. Handy to have in the bag though, no doubt.

Interestingly, if I remember right, Alisson looked like he had a good game there too by the stats, outside of the scoreline obviously, but when you actually watch it he did absolutely nothing.

 

[dinostar77]

Looking forward to de gea signing a contract extension and being our no1 keeper for a few more years.

 

[Based Adnan]

Where it's his lack of ability with the ball at his feet, his inability to come off his line or his tendency to punch the ball under zero pressure he loves inviting pressure on to us.

We shouldn't renew him at all despite the rumoured pay cut contract on the table.

 

[Idxomer]

Sorry but he's a clown and if Ten Hag sanctions his extension, I will lose any confidence in him.

 

[Lay]

Why did he punch the ball when the catch was easy and could have relieved pressure?

 

[the hea]

World class shot stopper, average to bad at everything else expected from a goalkeeper,

 

[Gaidal]

One good save which will be the highlight. But overall really poor, him not being able to pass or catch a cross just invites pressure and kills us in the end.

 

[jem]

This was the jittery, sketchy version of DDG. That decision to punch rather than catch was mindboggling.

 

[Oranges038]

Where it's his lack of ability with the ball at his feet, his inability to come off his line or his tendency to punch the ball under zero pressure he loves inviting pressure on to us.

We shouldn't renew him at all despite the rumoured pay cut contract on the table.

Been saying it for ages, his overall goalkeeping skillset is nowhere near good enough. He needs to be replaced.

 

[Kag]

My usual pop into this thread to say that he’s shite and is only getting a new contract because we can’t afford to buy a keeper on top of everything else.

That punch when he could have caught the ball on his line had me frothing at the mouth.

 

[sullydnl]

De Gea in goal will always limit how the team can play.

Nice reaction save though.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Weaknesses on full display again today.

 

[izec]

He is a liability. If we are serious about challenging for trophies, he needs binning, as with a nervous wreck on the line, you do not win much.

 

[Leftback99]

Swap for Ramsdale and we win that game.