[Oranges038]

I think you do know but don't want to say. The only keepers available are unproven at a top club. De Gea will do fine for me.

Yeah, your right, I do know.

But just hold on until I check the clubs bank accounts and ring Liverpool to see how much they want for him. I'll get back to you.

Being proven has feck all to do with it. DDG is proven, proven to be below average on almost every metric there is to evaluate a keepers performance. Proven to be not good enough for his own national team anymore. Proven to be an average shot stopper, not suited to playing a high line, a passing game or commanding his box.

There's plenty of keepers out there who could offer more than DDG. We've already seen the with Henderson who many believe is a cnut and an average keeper what a keeper with a more rounded skill set can do for the team.

 

[JB7]

I think you do know but don't want to say. The only keepers available are unproven at a top club. De Gea will do fine for me.

Sticking with a goalkeeper that's been shown time and time again to not be good enough because you're concerned that any alternatives are unproven at top clubs is very bizarre.

What do you count as a "top club"? Were Alisson & Ederson proven at "top clubs"? Was De Gea himself proven at a "top club" before Atletico threw him into the team? Same with Courtois and Oblak before Atletico put them in the team? Was Casillas proven at a "top club" before Real put him in their team?

Are Schalke (Neuer) and Mönchengladbach (ter Stegen) "top clubs"? What about Lille (Maignan), Levante (Navas), Stuttgart (Kobel), Rennes (Mendy & Cech), Girona (Bounou), Brondby (Schmeichel), Udinese (Handanovic), Parma (Buffon)? And that's just off the top of my head.

This whole "goalkeepers have to be proven at a top club before we look at them" idea is both ridiculous and a great way to ensure they cost £80m instead of £20m (for example).

 

[Olecurls99]

Yeah, your right, I do know.

But just hold on until I check the clubs bank accounts and ring Liverpool to see how much they want for him. I'll get back to you.

Being proven has feck all to do with it. DDG is proven, proven to be below average on almost every metric there is to evaluate a keepers performance. Proven to be not good enough for his own national team anymore. Proven to be an average shot stopper, not suited to playing a high line, a passing game or commanding his box.

There's plenty of keepers out there who could offer more than DDG. We've already seen the with Henderson who many believe is a cnut and an average keeper what a keeper with a more rounded skill set can do for the team.

Sticking with a goalkeeper that's been shown time and time again to not be good enough because you're concerned that any alternatives are unproven at top clubs is very bizarre.

What do you count as a "top club"? Were Alisson & Ederson proven at "top clubs"? Was De Gea himself proven at a "top club" before Atletico threw him into the team? Same with Courtois and Oblak before Atletico put them in the team? Was Casillas proven at a "top club" before Real put him in their team?

Are Schalke (Neuer) and Mönchengladbach (ter Stegen) "top clubs"? What about Lille (Maignan), Levante (Navas), Stuttgart (Kobel), Rennes (Mendy & Cech), Girona (Bounou), Brondby (Schmeichel), Udinese (Handanovic), Parma (Buffon)? And that's just off the top of my head.

This whole "goalkeepers have to be proven at a top club before we look at them" idea is both ridiculous and a great way to ensure they cost £80m instead of £20m (for example).

Pl Goalkeeper of the year multiple winner.

"Yeah David Raya, would you like to play for us because you've got a good left peg and have caught 26.7% more crosses than our Dave?"

See ya later yeah

 

[JB7]

Pl Goalkeeper of the year multiple winner.

"Yeah David Raya, would you like to play for us because you've got a good left peg and have caught 26.7% more crosses than our Dave?"

See ya later yeah

Really intelligent argument with absolutely zero counter points.

Btw given that neither post you quoted mentioned David Raya, odd to bring him up, and you've still done him a disservice; it's nearly 400% more, not 26.7%.

Well done on all accounts.

 

[Olecurls99]

Nearly 400% more if you really want to go down that route but given that neither post you quoted mentioned David Raya; really intelligent argument with absolutely zero counter points, well done.

Sign him up Erik. We'll never lose

 

[JB7]

Sign him up Erik. We'll never lose

It was you that brought up David Raya. Neither post you quoted did.

 

[Oranges038]

Pl Goalkeeper of the year multiple winner.

"Yeah David Raya, would you like to play for us because you've got a good left peg and have caught 26.7% more crosses than our Dave?"

See ya later yeah

You sound like Craig Burley when he was countering an argument about Liverpool players not having the legs and intensity to being up to playing Klopp's system anymore. Harping back to what the players have done and won in the past as if it's relevant to what they are doing right now.

We aren't in 2018 anymore. You can't just keep players because of what they've done or what they've won. You look at what they are doing now and what they can do in the future. Right now DDG is an average PL shot stopper and way below average at everything else. He just doesn't possess all the critical tools needed to work effectively in the style ETH is trying to implement. It really is that simple.

 

[Seven Seas Sardines]

Are you including Wayne Hennessey in this? Henderson and Navas I can see the argument for (not that I agree with it) but Hennessey!?

I'd take Neville Southall over De Gea.

 

[Remember the geese]

I'd take Neville Southall over De Gea.

I'd take the 'Well done, he's 13' kid over De Gea.

 

[RedPed]

What's your point?

All the metrics in the world don't matter if the goals are flying in.

 

[Trequartistry]

You've just said that almost any PL keeper would do because of our defence and Casemiro, if that's the case why does he need replacing - there's no logic there

To allow us to move forward. To improve us as a team even further - I can’t wrap my head around it can you not see how much better we’d be with a goalkeeper who 1) can claim crosses 2) play with his feet

 

[Oranges038]

All the metrics in the world don't matter if the goals are flying in.

They've conceded 2 more goals than Utd all season. Liverpool aren't losing goals and points because of Allison throwing in goals. He's had a few sloppy moments, but the reality is he's their best player right now, is still performing high compared to all the other keepers in the league. He's maintained his levels while the rest of the team have dropped off and is stopping them from being much worse off than they are.

It's like you have zero understanding of goalkeeping outside of making saves and keeping clean sheets.

 

[Jund]

The thing I don't understand is - why if DDG is so bad and easily replaceable he's still around after all those years and managers?

 

[bosnian_red]

The thing I don't understand is - why if DDG is so bad and easily replaceable he's still around after all those years and managers?

Because he was arguably the best in the world for a few years, at least up there, until 2018 or 2019. And then dropped off a cliff. But happened to sign a 5 year deal at 350k per week right at the end of his peak.

Ole did try to replace him with Henderson (hence us giving 100k per week to him), but obviously he isn't good enough either.

Also the club has been fighting fires every month. There's always bigger priorities than a goalkeeper where you can get by with a very average goalkeeper. Now that his contract is up, it's a different question.

 

[RVN1991]

Nottingham Forest now have three keepers better than De Gea and he makes more than all of them combined. I really hope it's around 80k at most, with more on top based on appearances he believes he'll get.

The agenda here is laughable I'm sure Forest will do well next season in the Championship with their three world beating goalkeepers.

Would love for him to go just for the LOLZ of us bedding in our own version of Claudio Bravo (who was allegedly an upgrade on Joe Hart) in Henderson or another bang average GK.

 

[sullydnl]

The thing I don't understand is - why if DDG is so bad and easily replaceable he's still around after all those years and managers?

First, because some of the takes on how bad he is are OTT.

Second, because we haven't always been in the situation we are in now. De Gea used to be better, we used to have managers who placed less emphasis on areas of the game he's weak and we used to have many more issues in our starting eleven taking priority. And even with that there was an attempt to try a different goalkeeper, that goalkeeper just wasn't good enough either.

The context is different now. We still have some more pressing problems (CF, for example) but not so many that this isn't an issue we can address this summer. And it's coming at a time when his contract is ending and we will have to sign some sort of goalkeeper regardless.

 

[JB7]

The agenda here is laughable I'm sure Forest will do well next season in the Championship with their three world beating goalkeepers.

Would love for him to go just for the LOLZ of us bedding in our own version of Claudio Bravo (who was allegedly an upgrade on Joe Hart) in Henderson or another bang average GK.

Is that the LOLZ of finishing higher up the league table, with a better defensive record and 12 more points (in Bravo's case) or the LOLZ of conceding 22 goals in 26 games vs 48 in 40 and winning 18 out of 26 games vs 20 out of 40 (in the case of Henderson vs De Gea behind the same defence in 2020/21)?

No great fan of Henderson btw and certainly would be selling him this summer to fund a goalkeeper signing, but the statistics spoke for themselves that season; literally every one both individually and team-wise was heavily in his favour. As for Bravo, he was only ever a temporary signing for City, they needed a goalkeeper ready to play a certain type of way and Hart was never that goalkeeper. They had spent a fortune in other areas and needed a goalkeeper Guardiola trusted relatively cheaply; he came in for a season and the following year they signed the goalkeeper they really wanted; it was logical business to be fair to them.

 

[RedPed]

They've conceded 2 more goals than Utd all season. Liverpool aren't losing goals and points because of Allison throwing in goals. He's had a few sloppy moments, but the reality is he's their best player right now, is still performing high compared to all the other keepers in the league. He's maintained his levels while the rest of the team have dropped off and is stopping them from being much worse off than they are.

It's like you have zero understanding of goalkeeping outside of making saves and keeping clean sheets.

18 of our 26 goals were conceded in 5 of our 21 games. I'm convinced you're just making this shit up as you go along.

 

[Oranges038]

18 of our 26 goals were conceded in 5 of our 21 games. I'm convinced you're just making this shit up as you go along.

Making what up exactly?

 

[Trequartistry]

The thing I don't understand is - why if DDG is so bad and easily replaceable he's still around after all those years and managers?

Maybe it’s one of the reasons we haven’t been good all these years and all these managers. How he’s gotten away with it is so mind boggling to me despite his constant huge errors in big games he’s still treated like a God on here and the club keep pandering to him. He’s cost us trophies, cost us places in the UCL, and right now he could be costing us from challenging for the title

 

[Olecurls99]

He's been a big part of an improving team. That team has been based on a solid defense, of which he is a very important part.

You can throw all the stats you like but the main thing a goalkeeper does is help keep goals out and we've been the best at that over the past 4 months.

 

[Olecurls99]

If he's keeping clean sheets, I really don't care if he has the worst stats in the league.

Clean Sheets. The goalkeeper stat that rules them all.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

It’s like talking to a wall in here. Just like under previous managers you can’t look at basic stuff like results & clean sheets etc to decide things because they average out over time if the underlying base isn’t strong. That’s why despite the clean sheets we have conceded 26 goals this season.

 

[Olecurls99]

It’s like talking to a wall in here. Just like under previous managers you can’t look at basic stuff like results & clean sheets etc to decide things because they average out over time if the underlying base isn’t strong. That’s why despite the clean sheets we have conceded 26 goals this season.

I'd say that was more down to a bad start and Ten Hag finding his feet. Since then the underlying base has been strong.

 

[Olecurls99]

15 conceded in the last 24 games and I can only think of that 1 I'd pin on Dave. Keep up the good work.

 

[mctrials23]

If he's keeping clean sheets, I really don't care if he has the worst stats in the league.

Clean Sheets. The goalkeeper stat that rules them all.

Thats not true unless you think football is a fantastically simple game. A good midfield and a good defence make far more difference to your clean sheets than a good goalkeeper. Alisson is still putting in fantastic performances at Liverpool and still shipping goals at an astonishing rate.

Your goalkeeper in the modern game needs to be more than a pure shot stopper. If you are letting in very few goals its almost a certainty that your defence and midfield are functioning really well and if you are a progressive team who plays on the front foot you would probably benefit massively from a keeper that can sweep, start some of your attacks and play the ball around at the back. Both Alisson and Ederson have added so much value to City and Liverpool outside of their shot stopping.

If DDG can't provide that he will be replaced. If you replace a keeper with someone who is a worse shot stopper but far better in other aspects and concede another 5 goals a season, it probably doesn't matter if he means you score 15 more.

 

[sullydnl]

If he's keeping clean sheets, I really don't care if he has the worst stats in the league.

Clean Sheets. The goalkeeper stat that rules them all.

It's actually an awful stat for assessing goalkeeper performances. Aside from it being a measure of the defence's performance rather than the goalkeeper's (which isn't the same thing), you also put a distorting one game cut off point on goals conceded.

You could have one goalkeeper making a host of miracle saves while the other literally doesn't have a shot on target, yet both get a clean sheet and have perfomed equally well per that metric. You could have a goalkeeper concede five in five games and still get fewer clean sheets from that run than a goalkeeper who concedes 25 in 5, so has apparently performed worse.

 

[Olecurls99]

Thats not true unless you think football is a fantastically simple game. A good midfield and a good defence make far more difference to your clean sheets than a good goalkeeper. Alisson is still putting in fantastic performances at Liverpool and still shipping goals at an astonishing rate.

Your goalkeeper in the modern game needs to be more than a pure shot stopper. If you are letting in very few goals its almost a certainty that your defence and midfield are functioning really well and if you are a progressive team who plays on the front foot you would probably benefit massively from a keeper that can sweep, start some of your attacks and play the ball around at the back. Both Alisson and Ederson have added so much value to City and Liverpool outside of their shot stopping.

If DDG can't provide that he will be replaced. If you replace a keeper with someone who is a worse shot stopper but far better in other aspects and concede another 5 goals a season, it probably doesn't matter if he means you score 15 more.

Football is fantastically simple no matter how complicated people wanna make it.

I'd like to think Dave has something to do with the good defensive performance of the team. He has saved shots etc. 99% of what a keeper does for me is keep the ball out. 15 conceded in 24 games. 1 of which was his fault. We do have a good defence as well and I don't want to get rid of any of them. Dave included.

Allison is a brilliant keeper. No argument there but if he's so good at build up play, then why are Liverpool so terrible. City aren't ripping up trees with Prosinecki in goal. Why is that? How many goals has Allison contributed to this season for Liverpool. A footballing goalie has a negligible effect on a teams attack. It's really 99% more reliant on the world class midfielders and attackers then the keeper.

 

[Revaulx]

If he's keeping clean sheets, I really don't care if he has the worst stats in the league.

Clean Sheets. The goalkeeper stat that rules them all.

I think DDG has been good this season and am far from desperate to see him replaced, but that statement is as much a reflection of the whole team’s ability to defend as it is the keeper’s.

Also, it hasn’t been true since Lev Yashin appeared on the scene.

 

[Olecurls99]

It's actually an awful stat for assessing goalkeeper performances. Aside from it being a measure of the defence's performance rather than the goalkeeper's (which isn't the same thing), you also put a distorting one game cut off point on goals conceded.

You could have one goalkeeper making a host of miracle saves while the other literally doesn't have a shot on target, yet both get a clean sheet and have perfomed equally well per that metric. You could have a goalkeeper concede five in five games and still get fewer clean sheets from that run than a goalkeeper who concedes 25 in 5, so has apparently performed worse.

Those things could happen but it's very unlikely.

What has happened is Dave has conceded 15 goals in his last 24 matches? I'm sorry if I'm being too simplistic but I don't wanna replace a goalkeeper with those stats.

If he continued his early season form then I'd be with you, and a couple of years ago I wanted him gone, but he's doing the business now and is a key part of an excellent defence.

 

[Olecurls99]

I think DDG has been good this season and am far from desperate to see him replaced, but that statement is as much a reflection of the whole team’s ability to defend as it is the keeper’s.

Also, it hasn’t been true since Lev Yashin appeared on the scene.

I think it's relevant. Shoot me

 

[Longshanks]

If he's keeping clean sheets, I really don't care if he has the worst stats in the league.

Clean Sheets. The goalkeeper stat that rules them all.

So by your logic he is worse than Nick Pope and Aaron Ramsdale, on an even keel with David Raya and Ederson and only marginally better than Hugo Lloris and Kepa this season.

And last season was considerably worse than Allison, Ederson, Lloris, Mendy, Ramsdale, Guatia, Sa, Martinez, Sanchez, slightly worse than Pope and on an even keel with dubrakva, fabianski and Raya.

I thought he has been amazing so far this season so far and last season was one of his best in recent years. The one stat to rule them all dosent really back that up though.

 

[Olecurls99]

So by your logic he is worse than Nick Pope and Aaron Ramsdale, on an even keel with David Raya and Ederson and only marginally better than Hugo Lloris and Kepa this season.

And last season was considerably worse than Allison, Ederson, Lloris, Mendy, Ramsdale, Guatia, Sa, Martinez, Sanchez, slightly worse than Pope and on an even keel with dubrakva, fabianski and Raya.

I thought he has been amazing so far this season so far and last season was one of his best in recent years. The one stat to rule them all dosent really back that up though.

I was being glib but conceding 15 in 24 is impressive in any team. Now is not the time for criticism.

Do you honestly think with a different keeper we would have conceded significantly fewer than 15 goals in the past 24 games? We all know the answer Longshanks

 

[mctrials23]

Football is fantastically simple no matter how complicated people wanna make it.

I'd like to think Dave has something to do with the good defensive performance of the team. He has saved shots etc. 99% of what a keeper does for me is keep the ball out. 15 conceded in 24 games. 1 of which was his fault. We do have a good defence as well and I don't want to get rid of any of them. Dave included.

Allison is a brilliant keeper. No argument there but if he's so good at build up play, then why are Liverpool so terrible. City aren't ripping up trees with Prosinecki in goal. Why is that? How many goals has Allison contributed to this season for Liverpool. A footballing goalie has a negligible effect on a teams attack. It's really 99% more reliant on the world class midfielders and attackers then the keeper.

I completely disagree. Football is a very complicated game and depending on how you want to play its even more so. Your keeper can't score in the same way your defenders don't score many goals. A weak defence can completely ruin the attacking threat of a team though. Thats a massive part of why Liverpool have struggled at both ends this season. Their midfield has been poor, their defence has had to do far more defending which has nullified their wingbacks attacking threat and everything has cascaded from there.

Ask Klopp and Pep how important their keepers are to the way they play. Same for Bayern and Neuer. They aren't important for their shot stopping ability as much as they are for the way they allow their team to play.

In the same way a world class striker can't make a shit team good, a top class GK can't make a crap team good either. They are a cog in the machine but they are a vital one.

 

[AlPistacho]

They've conceded 2 more goals than Utd all season. Liverpool aren't losing goals and points because of Allison throwing in goals. He's had a few sloppy moments, but the reality is he's their best player right now, is still performing high compared to all the other keepers in the league. He's maintained his levels while the rest of the team have dropped off and is stopping them from being much worse off than they are.

It's like you have zero understanding of goalkeeping outside of making saves and keeping clean sheets.

So Allison is like De Gea when United were struggling? Do you think he’ll be their player of the season?

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

Where is this 15 conceded in last 24 stat coming from considering we have played 21 games in the league and conceded 26 goals

 

[Raw]

Where is this 15 conceded in last 24 stat coming from considering we have played 21 games in the league and conceded 26 goals

All competitions maybe?

 

[Olecurls99]

I completely disagree. Football is a very complicated game and depending on how you want to play its even more so. Your keeper can't score in the same way your defenders don't score many goals. A weak defence can completely ruin the attacking threat of a team though. Thats a massive part of why Liverpool have struggled at both ends this season. Their midfield has been poor, their defence has had to do far more defending which has nullified their wingbacks attacking threat and everything has cascaded from there.

Ask Klopp and Pep how important their keepers are to the way they play. Same for Bayern and Neuer. They aren't important for their shot stopping ability as much as they are for the way they allow their team to play.

In the same way a world class striker can't make a shit team good, a top class GK can't make a crap team good either. They are a cog in the machine but they are a vital one.

Right and De Gea has been a vital cog in our machine and a crucial part of our current form.

And despite Allison being better at distribution it has a negligible, miniscule effect on a teams attacking output, as shown with Liverpool this season.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

All competitions maybe?

In all competitions this season it’s 31 goals in 30 games

 

[Olecurls99]

Where is this 15 conceded in last 24 stat coming from considering we have played 21 games in the league and conceded 26 goals

Last 24 all comps. We've conceded 15 goals. Impressive huh?