Maybe he’s not paid enough?
David de Gea: I hope I can be here for many more years
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
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Needs to get his act together else next season he will be on the bench.
A in-form confident Henderson will be #1 in no time.
We could very well end up with De Gea and Sanchez on the bench.....around £750k a week in wages ffs.
A in-form confident Henderson will be #1 in no time.
We could very well end up with De Gea and Sanchez on the bench.....around £750k a week in wages ffs.
I’m not sure but I do know he shouldn’t have been going with his right hand that was crazy. It’s like his reactions have been so good for so long that he tries out something new on the fly to see if it works. But that kind of improvisation also speaks of someone who’s lost their head and bottle a bit.
Hrrrrrm tough one, before those errors against PSG and arsenal he was prob top two in the world. He’s had a scary last 18 months. I can see the arguments for and against but I’m tipped to staying loyal to DDG. Form is temporary although this run is starting to look more like a long period in his drop in performance since but he has not completely forgotten how to play the game like Torres did at the end of his career at livercr@p. Stick with him one more season, see how he goes and if he hasn’t regained his old form hendo can step in. Hendo is still young
More precisely, Patrice Evra is a Manchester United ambassador. Publicly criticising the player contradicts his role in the club, he can't do that.
Which also means that he can't be a fair pundit with regards to Manchester United.
Which also means that he can't be a fair pundit with regards to Manchester United.
Unlike a lot of his earlier errors in 2011/12 the mistakes he is making recently have been really costly. Completely cost us the top 4 last year and is threatening to do the same this year. Our last 2 away games Spurs and Everton, both 1-1 and both opposition goals have been absolutely horrendous mistakes.
He made another poor mistake last night...I love him and I desperately want him to get back to his best,but if he keeps making mistakes like that,then we as a club will obviously have to make a big decision before the start of next season...Hopefully he can find his form soon...
As an example.
How about if you want to play a high line and your goalkeeper shits themselves every time they need to leave their goal line?
Doesn't that impact your options and mean that you have to play a slightly deeper line to mitigate the risk of your goalkeeper shitting their pants and leaving a 1 to 1 instead of leaving their line.
what if that was the trend that teams wanted to play a high line, wouldn't it make a goalkeeper that shits themselves leaving their line outdated?
Another example.
What if you want to play a passing game at the back and your goalkeeper shits their pants whenever the defender has to pass the ball back to them as part of the triangle because of a high press so instead of passing back to him they end up having to take risks on the ball or play it long or out of play to not get caught. What if the goalkeeper was not great at passing into midfield so the triangle to create a new passing lane is less effective and they decide to hoof it instead and the long ball favours the other team.
If that was the trend to pass out from the back while the opposition like to press high wouldn't that make the keeper outdated they they cannot retain possession?
I mean in this example, if the example was also constantly chucking it into their own net when they are supposed to be a world class shot stopper and were being paid £350k a week, it would make it a piss take if they also didn't have the advantages of the other preferred attributes in modern goalkeepers playing for the top sides.
drop him and give Romero a chance
Lloris comparison is apt.
It’s a curious case with DdG because the goals he is conceding really are elementary yet he’ll save difficult ones.
It doesn’t help when both your LB & your LCB conspire to put a player in 1-on-1 but he’s there to save those.
I’d say another mistake & he should be dropped but this keeps being said; personally I’m wary of bringing Henderson back until we sort the defence out properly as we could just have a Ben Foster situation on our hands.
One world class save and one howler of an error. That's pretty much how Dave goes since the last world cup. I wonder what the underlying reason are, as he's only 29 so he should be in his absolute prime for a reflex keeper.
Whilst it’s not easy to say, I think his time with us is up. I love the man and, for me, he was the best in the world in his prime. With that said, I think a case of too many mistakes, over a prolonged period, to be considered a blip.
For what it’s worth, I also think moving Henderson into the #1 slot next season is central to substantiating Ole’s goal of a ‘cultural reboot’. Often, the so-called reboot is discussed in relation to getting the right characters and personalities in the dressing room; however, I also believe such a reboot should entail an unwillingness to accept mediocrity any longer. I don’t want to get off topic, but I think most can agree that we have accepted low standards, hell, even rewarded them over the previous ‘X’ amount of years. Giving Henderson his chance at De Gea’s expense would show that we’ve truly changed our vision and are willing to pick players on merit, rather than name value and sentiment. Just my two cents on the matter, of course.
For what it’s worth, I also think moving Henderson into the #1 slot next season is central to substantiating Ole’s goal of a ‘cultural reboot’. Often, the so-called reboot is discussed in relation to getting the right characters and personalities in the dressing room; however, I also believe such a reboot should entail an unwillingness to accept mediocrity any longer. I don’t want to get off topic, but I think most can agree that we have accepted low standards, hell, even rewarded them over the previous ‘X’ amount of years. Giving Henderson his chance at De Gea’s expense would show that we’ve truly changed our vision and are willing to pick players on merit, rather than name value and sentiment. Just my two cents on the matter, of course.
Your point on mediocrity is spot on.
Roy Keane was a caricature of Roy Keane last night but that’s pretty much his point; in that dressing room DDG would have had to raise standards or move on & that’s how it should be now.
That one save wasn’t anything special. Questions would be asked of any goalkeeper who let that in.
That still doesn't mean the Goal Keeper is outdated. That simply means We have a GK that doesn't have the skillset to achieve what We want to play. Just like if you have Lukaku but need players like Rashford instead. But really though, if He didn't make mistakes (which He makes rather frequently, as of lately) and instead saved those. We wouldn't even be discussing this. Praising him? maybe if They were good saves.
De Gea became the focus (and rightly so) because He failed to keep the ball out of the net. If you look at Spur's Goal it didn't have anything to do with him not coming out of his goal line. It's him fecking up, which lead into the goal. Which made Odgen's comment a bit weird to me. Marking a Goal Keeper as outdated for being unlike the other top keepers, when it's his mistake that costed us the game.
And about the trend part. I could understand if at least 60% of team in the League need a Keeper that could play a high line. But that isn't the case. That's not the trend. And even if it is, still, I would say a GK's main focus should be to prevent goals from happening. It's like Barca's tiki taka all over again. People said it was the trend just because one team consistently won whilst using the system. When in fact, only Barca could pull it off. That didn't mean the other clubs were outdated. That didn't mean if a club didn't play tiki-taka back then, regardless of it's flexibility and how good it seemed, the other clubs and their players were outdated.
Outdated = Obsolete = No longer used. But yet most of the teams still use worse GKs than De Gea. And do just fine, actually.
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Goal keepers aren't only there to stay rooted to their spot either. And he stays rooted to his spot. A club should provide the necessary tools to a prospective new manager to give him the best chance to succeed. And most of the up and coming coaches do favour every single player in their squad to be comfortable on the ball, even goalkeepers believe it or not.
It's true not all teams need a goalkeeper to play out from the back. Sam Allardyce, Tony Pulis etc likely wouldn't want their keeper to play out from the back. But some of the best coaches in the world do require their keepers to be comfortable on the ball and have sweeper capabilities and that is a fact. The two best coaches in English football are two examples of many coaches around Europe who have adopted the same footballing mantra when it comes to dominating the ball, albeit in different ways.
Joe Hart was sent packing by Guardiola for that very reason.
This post wasn't to criticise De Gea but rather to challenge the notion that keepers are only there to stop goals which is a out dated view imo.
He did better at corners. So, at least that part is a really nice improvement.
Although can't help that he reminds me of Tim Howard. An agile and excellent shot stopper. And SAF got rid of him when he started those blunders.
Although can't help that he reminds me of Tim Howard. An agile and excellent shot stopper. And SAF got rid of him when he started those blunders.
It's disgusting how DDG is showing signs of wear and tear after having saved our defense's arse for years. He should be doing to Maguire and Shaw what he had been doing for Smalling, Rojo and Jones ie make spectacular saves that would cover up for their mistakes. Instead here we are discussing a goal which came out of Shaw's inability to defend and the 80m rated defender inability to run which is a bit of a problem considering that a defensive full back should know how to defend and an 80m rated defender should have a little bit of pace.
Anyway, we should get rid off him immediately. God forbid if we keep a long servant of the club past his time. I mean we're talking of an overrated player here not someone like Gaz or Fletcher whom you could easily put alongside Zanetti and Iniesta and no one would notice the difference. Just kick him out of the club. Considering that he's no real man (with wolverine syndrome and all) then he'll probably end up moaning on sky football about the unfair treatment he got from United
DDG might not be as great as he once was but he's a very valid keeper. Instead of moaning about him then maybe we should help him up by adding some top defenders and a DM in front of him
Anyway, we should get rid off him immediately. God forbid if we keep a long servant of the club past his time. I mean we're talking of an overrated player here not someone like Gaz or Fletcher whom you could easily put alongside Zanetti and Iniesta and no one would notice the difference. Just kick him out of the club. Considering that he's no real man (with wolverine syndrome and all) then he'll probably end up moaning on sky football about the unfair treatment he got from United
DDG might not be as great as he once was but he's a very valid keeper. Instead of moaning about him then maybe we should help him up by adding some top defenders and a DM in front of him
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He ain't going anywhere not after signing a long term contract on that huge salary. Which is fair enough as DDG is still a very valid keeper
Instead of blaming it on the keeper we should have a look at our defence instead because let's face it, DDG wouldn't have been in that mess if the defence hasn't mess it up. Its time we should start asking questions like for example what Shaw brings to the table or if it was worth spending 80m on a tortoise. Once that is done we should strengthen the defence accordingly by adding a quality pacey CB + a LB whose actually useful.
Henderson's time will come but we've got to be patient on that. The jump between a nobody team and Manchester United is enormous and bringing in a keeper too soon can ruin careers. Just ask Foster and Howard all of whom were rated at par to Henderson back in the day.
Is a DM gonna help him make regulation saves? Is another CB gonna do the same?
We should bring in a keeper who will help the defence by actually having some balls and coming off his line from time to time. He's a limited keeper and deserves to be dropped on merit due to his rubbish performances.
And I'm not sure why we should constantly discuss the price tag of Maguire. He's not going anywhere for the foreseeable future so it's pointless discussing some thing that has been done to death already.
DDG isn't going to go anywhere either. He just signed a new contract on a huge salary. So we can
a- moan about a great servant of this club whom (unlike Maguire) happened to have been WC and might (or might not) be WC once more
b - we should bring in some defenders and a DM with brains and pace instead. That would compliment to the defender's we've already got reducing the amount of brain farts to the minimum.
DDG is not the super man he once was. Maybe he will return to that form, maybe not. However he's still a very valid keeper whom under the right circumstances is easily first team level for us. So instead of hurrying things up on Henderson we're better off sorting the mess we've got and allow Henderson to develop at his own pace elsewhere. Being United's keeper is tough. According to Schmeichel it's the toughest job in the world. So let's learn from Howard's and Foster's experience for once and avoid hurrying things up.
We've got too many players who are first teamers based on pure hype. Lindelof, Shaw and McT are squad players at best. Maguire is first team level but he needs a pacey top quality CB to do the running for him. These problems will persist irrespective if we've got DDG or Henderson in goal
Whether he's signed a huge contract like Sanchez is irrelevant. If he's not doing the job for our club he needs to be dropped. He can still pick up his wages like Sanchez from the sidelines.
Bringing in defenders and what not is a debate/discussion for a different thread. And no way should it be used in this thread to paper over the cracks of our issues in the goal keeping department and used to deflect blame.
Super goal keepers perform for a club at the highest level (UCL, International tournament) and De Gea has not done that. So the praise is way over the top and shows the falling standards that we've become accustomed to.
Being a goal keeper at any big club is tough and we don't necessarily need someone to tell us that.
Our problems post Schmeichel were that we thought we could get away with a keeper on the cheap hence the likes of Bosnich, Carrol, Howard etc. When infact we could've moved earlier for VdS from Ajax or even tried for Italian Francesco Toldo but it would've been costly. I don't think the current hierarchy would go the same route. So the issue post Schmeichel was easily rectified if we were willing to spend on the best keepers in Europe which we quite clearly weren't prepared to do.
Henderson is a keeper that believes he's ready to be #1. He's also performing better than De Gea playing with worse players. He actually deserves a chance on merit.
Lindelof, McTominay etc might be squad players, but if the keeper behind them is making a high number of errors then it's very unfair to pin the blame on them for his errors.
The truth is that De Gea isn't performing and hasn't performed to a good level consistently for some time now and something needs to be done. Under Fergie he'd be getting splinters in his backside sitting on the bench.
He's making far too many silly errors this season, to win leagues you can't have 3 points dropped because of simple goalkeeping errors.
If he regains his old form it'll be good for a title challenge with a few additions in the squad. Otherwise bringing Henderson back from loan and having Romero might be a strong option.
If he regains his old form it'll be good for a title challenge with a few additions in the squad. Otherwise bringing Henderson back from loan and having Romero might be a strong option.
De Gea has been inconsistent for a while now.
I think Mourinho's last full season was his best.
Interesting the push for Henderson though. Hes had 1 season in the Championship and 75% of a season in the Premier League. If he wasnt our player, would people think he was qualified enough to be our #1?
I think Mourinho's last full season was his best.
Interesting the push for Henderson though. Hes had 1 season in the Championship and 75% of a season in the Premier League. If he wasnt our player, would people think he was qualified enough to be our #1?
At the very least DDG has to be dropped for a game or two to show him that he is not irreplaceable. Look at Fergie giving Schmiechel time off in the treble year to get his head right. Ole is right to defend DDG to the hilt when questioned about him instead of throwing him under the bus but at the same time he needs to address it. Remember Guardiola and Klopp defended Claudio Bravo and Karrius to the hilt but got better replacements in soon after their form went downhill, this is going to be a big test for Ole.
So 90%+ of teams in the world of football have outdated GKs then? among them are big clubs as well. I don't know, but it seems to me that Odgen was trying too hard to justify his point - which is "De Gea is no longer one of the best keepers in the world" and I agree with that 100%, based on his recent performances. De Gea made mistakes, his performances dropped. But outdated? come on now, you do know the word outdated means failed to adapt therefore can no longer be used. That is not the case.
And on top of that, We don't have Guardiola as the manager. I have also never heard about Ole needing a new GK because the current one is outdated to him. If that's the case, then De Gea would have been shown out of the door, just like Lukaku.
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You have to start at the elite level at the top of the chain in European football to get the correct answer.
Currently performing badly. Not outdated.
And if it goes on then He should be demoted from being the first team keeper, and rightly so.
And if it goes on then He should be demoted from being the first team keeper, and rightly so.
We've had Jones and Smalling for ages with all their brain farts and they're both defenders who could not play from the back, relied on strength to defend more than anything and in the case of emergency, They just smash the ball for clearance to wherever. But I have never heard about both being marked as outdated. And the last time I check, They're still valid defenders. E.g can be useful, even to us, even if not all the time. Overreaction. It's easy to do it when the mistakes a player made led to goals.
David De Gea - from a hero Goal Keeper to an invalid Goal Keeper. Might as well retire now.
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We could also liken it to the other end where Martial and Rashford didnt score with their chances. When a goalie makes a mistake its highlighted beyond anything an outfield player does. Is De Gea finished? Its too early to say. Hes 29 and thats the equivalent of an outfield player being 25. Would Henderson or Romero do any better? Who knows? As I mentioned on another thread Ole has a big decision to make with Henderson for next season, or at least by next summer. He cant keep being loaned out. Its also in the media today as well that Chelsea have an eye out for him.
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His age would not be a problem if he was a Buffon/Schmeichel/Neuer type of GK because they are all rounded and able to adapt their games accordingly even as they age. Neuer at 34 is still a top 5 GK ITW. De Gea is more of a Casillas(world class shot stopper) and such GKs when they are entering 30 or in their 30s decline very hard. Casillas at 30/31 got dropped by Jose for putting in similar performances to De Gea. We may want to believe its just a blip but we are talking about 2 years worth of mistakes. We may have to look at the reality that his best abilities are unfortunately waning.
He's still a very valid keeper irrespective if he returns to his previous form or not. All he needs is for the defence to finally start doing it part. It's ridiculous how a defence we've spent so many millions in is still so unreliable especially since we rely on a defence with two defensive fullbacks who provide nearly nothing in terms of creativity.
If Henderson returns to OT then he'll be in the limelight 24/7 with all mistakes being magnified to the ridiculous. That had destroyed the confidence of many valid GKs. I'd say lets keep Henderson on loan for the next year, we rely on DDG for the time being and we invest on 1-2 quality defenders instead. Once the back is stable then we might consider giving Henderson his chance.
The good news about bringing Henderson back and relying on him is that maybe there won't be any pesky foreigner to pin all the blame upon anymore. Who knows maybe having one of our own in goal will finally expose how shit Shaw really is and it would finally expose the limitations of Lindelof, AWB and Maguire.
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Jones is dog shit. These days he's nothing more then a meme. Smalling is in my opinion a better option then Lindelof. However that really doesn't say much either.
I'm not disagreeing with you on the backline. But De Gea has been making far too much errors now and he's also part of the defense. I also agree with you about the fullbacks.
I think Henderson will be loaned out again too.
One of the problems is there’s never any consequences for his mistakes. No matter how many times he costs us he’s never dropped, it’s about time we gave Romero a run. He’s a solid keeper probably the best back up around and it may give De Gea the kick up the arse needed to regain his form.
I believe that defence is an entire unit (GK, DEF, DM) were its strengths lie in its weakest link. Schmeichel used to say that the GK is a fail safe that isn't needed as long as the players in front of him do their job. Sacchi couldn't even bother buy a decent gk because his defence was so good that it made the GK look redundant.
DDG had signed a long contract on silly money. So he won't be leaving anytime soon. He might not be WC anymore but he's still a very valid keeper. He was at fault for the goal but so were the defenders in front of him, defenders btw, we've spent tens on millions upon and produce next to nothing in terms of creativity. Its unacceptable that a defence that has an 110m worth of talent as CBs and 2 defensive fullbacks would allow Bergwijn to dribble past it so easily from such long distance.
So my point is simple. Instead throwing Henderson in the deep end only to risk ruining his confidence, let's sort the defence first. I think that can be achieved with a DM and a top CB with some real pace as Williams can (and should have) replaced Shaw quite easily. Once the defence is sorted then Henderson can be eased in. Let's be clear here. I am not protecting DDG here. At his age and with his experience DDG can and should be able to fend for himself. I am protecting Henderson here.
I agree on that. I am sick with having players being given 2nd-3rd-4th chance irrespective of how they perform. DDG should be on the bench in the same way as Lindelof should be on the bench . Meanwhile Jones, Periera, JLingz, Rojo and Shaw should be out of this club.
People might have seen similar analyses elsewhere, but the stats aren't great for De Gea
Quick explainer for anyone new to this stuff:
If we look at the entire Premier League it's not great (also
at Chelsea for the money they spent on Kepa). You might argue 'Oh he's no worse than Ederson', but Ederson adds so much more to City's attacking play than De Gea does to ours.
And the stats also show what we all know; that De Gea has declined…
Saving us 0.34 goals per 90 (12 over the season) in 17/18, vs costing us goals today.
Quick explainer for anyone new to this stuff:
- Post-shot expected goals (PSxG) is a metric that looks at the quality of a shot AFTER it has been taken: Given this shot what is the chance it results in a goal
- It's basically expected goals PLUS taking into account the velocity and the placement of a shot once it was actually taken (xG doesn't do this because it's a metric for quality of chances, not quality of shots/finishing)
- This lets you compare goalkeepers: Given these shots how many goals would be expected vs how many have actually been conceded
- It's always best to use per 90 stats as it equalises for playing time
If we look at the entire Premier League it's not great (also
at Chelsea for the money they spent on Kepa). You might argue 'Oh he's no worse than Ederson', but Ederson adds so much more to City's attacking play than De Gea does to ours.
And the stats also show what we all know; that De Gea has declined…
Saving us 0.34 goals per 90 (12 over the season) in 17/18, vs costing us goals today.
The goalkeeper is always needed no matter how good a teams backline is. Schmeichel was the best keeper I ever saw at United but don't agree with alot of what he says.
It's not true that Sacchi couldn't be bothered buying a good keeper. Milan bought Sebastiano Rossi under Sacchi and he was a fantastic keeper, one of the best in Italian football history. He was at Milan for 12 years and was used as a sweeper keeper in a high-line at times due to his excellent ability on the ball. He was also very good at commanding his area due to his size and would often pluck crosses out from the air in a crowded box which would relieve the pressure on the defense. Something we saw Schmeichel do often at United and currently it's non existent under De Gea.
The defenders infront of the keeper were culpable and those players are getting scruitinized in their respective threads. But De Gea has made a plethora of errors now for quite some time and the latest one was a regulation save. It's not good enough and it's becoming a running theme now. I think Fergie would've dropped him from the team.
Seba Rossi was a very average keeper, I assure you as I watch most of Milan's game at the time. There's a reason why he never represented Italy despite being part of what I think to be the best XI I've ever seen. He wasn't very good. Yet Milan had no issues with that mainly because Baresi, Tassotti, Costacurta, Maldini and Ancelotti/Rijkaard would cover his arse. Barthez (France) is yet another example of a meah goalkeeper playing at the back of a magnificent backline.
I agree with you that a decent goalkeeper is always needed as reaching the perfection reached by AC Milan of the time is almost impossible. However what we at United ask from a goalkeeper is way beyond to that especially in the past few years. We're used to DDG constantly bailing the defence out. Once that stopped the criticism came on him like an avalanche with legends like Keane now saying that he always thought that DDG was overrated. That's disrespectful.
We won't get rid of DDG and unlike Sanchez I am not that worried about that. There's still a decent GK in DDG and he's probably still the best goalkeeper we have. However its clear that he can't do it on his own anymore. We've got a defence which costed a measly 180m-200m. Just ask yourself which of these guys would make it at first team level either in the treble side (Gaz, Johnsen, Stam, Irwin) or the 3rd CL side (Gaz, Rio, Vidic, Evra). I would struggle to come out with even 1 name. That's certainly not good enough.
I can't be bothered scrutinising this or that player. The defence should be seen as a unit rather then as individuals. Bruce and Pally were nowhere near to WC but they made it work. Same with Juventus whom back to Lippi times, used to have a very solid backline despite relying on average defenders (Montero, Torricelli, Iuliano and Pessotto). Unfortunately I can't see that happening in our present side. DDG needs to be more physical and far more vocal. Lindelof and Maguire are just too slow and honestly I have yet to understand what Lindelof brings to the table apart from the fact that he's better then Rojo and Jones. Meanwhile having 2 defensive full backs is overkill especially since Shaw isn't that great in defending either. Ah and I almost forgot, someone need to tell Fred & McT that unless they transition quickly to top quality DMs then there days as first team players will be numbered. United need players that can stand up and be counted + players that can compliment one another. Shaw-Maguire-Lindelof-AWB with McT/Fred as DM simply don't cut it. I hope we'll sort that before Henderson return. The last thing we need is for the hype to go overdrive only for the guy's confidence to be shot once its evident that he's not going to bail the idiots in front of him as good old prime DDG used to do. We've already ruined Foster's and Howard's career. Let's spare Henderson from that misery.