David Moyes West Ham Manager (Again)

Oranges038

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Jose should have replaced SAF. He wasn't on such a downward spiral at the time, had the ego to handle replacing possibly the greatest manager ever and had an older squad which he likes dealing with normally. A few years with him and then whoever followed wouldn't have such a legacy to come in after. Still shouldn't have been Moyes even then though!

Jose should never have been made Man Utd manager under any circumstance.
 

RashyForPM

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No I can't say I did.
Yeah that was one of the attacking performances. They do have a go at the lesser sides. They even have a go at the midtable sides like Arsenal, Everton etc. Maybe you caught their games against us and City only where they couldn’t be more defensive if they tried.
 

Botim

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What is West Hams style of play and main tactics in your opinion?

Moyes for me is a very pragmatic manager. Every time I've watched them this season they've been set up to keep it tight at the back and hit teams on the counter. Would you disagree with that assessment?
I would agree that's how they play the top teams. It would be foolish not to, imo.

But that's not how they've played against the lower half teams this year. In their last two games, for example, they scored 6 goals in the first half, and had 25 shots on goal. They play direct football, sure, but I don't believe their main goal is to lock up a game and just wait for a counter or a set piece.

I also don't see why a team like them would somehow be an embarassment to the league. I know most West Ham fans prefer this somewhat old school style to the prettier but ineffective Pellegrini period.

He even says it himself, he sets out to stop the opposition playing their game first and foremost. They might not have reached Burnley levels but he's not exactly Rinus Michels either.
That statement has little meaning on its own. City also set out to stop the opponent from playing their game (by claiming 70% of possession). There's many ways to stop a team form playing their game.

Also, they score far too many goals for them to be called a negative team. Mostly against weaker sides, as you say, but that's only logical with a team like theirs. They have some decent players, but shouldn't be outscoring Chelsea, Arsenal, Everton, etc who have far better attacking options.
 

hmchan

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Rice out for a month, could be a heavy blow to West Ham's top 4 challenge, although Moyes has managed to deal with a few injury crisis this season.
 

TrustInOle

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I swear, if you don't play possession orientated football these days, you are quickly judged to be a "counter attacking" team. Sir Alex never played for possession and he most certainly wasn't a counter attacking manager, sometimes it can seem this way if your style is based of attacking when possible or forcing the issue when you get the ball, taking risks even if they don't work out and forcing your opponent to reshuffle when your first idea is to try and create fast.

Direct may be the most accurate term to describe Moyes football. They don't dilly dally on the ball, looking to keep it for long periods, when they get the ball, their first idea is to attack, not to different than ourselves. Not to sit every player behind the ball and then try and hit a long ball over everyone for a counter, it more precise than that, in my opinion.

Contrary to the masses, I am glad to see him doing well again, made some astute signings aswell.
 

Patchbeard

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West Ham definitely haven't been flat track bullies.

This is the Top 6 table so far this season.

1. Man United P 8 W 3 D 4 L 1 Pts 16
2. Man City P 9 W 4 D 2 L 3 Pts 14
3. Leicester City P 6 W 3 D 1 L 2 Pts 11
4. West Ham P 8 W 3 D 1 L 4 Pts 10
5. Chelsea P 7 W 2 D 3 L 2 Pts 9
6. Spurs P 8 W 2 D 2 L 4 Pts 8

They've been involved in some entertaining games with a lot of goals. Even if we narrow it down to the top four teams they're only behind the Manchester clubs. They're level on points with Leicester who have a game in hand but tougher fixtures left so it's hard to call.

On a side note, it makes nice viewing for us!
I couldn't believe we are top of the top 6 table after so many dire big games this season, then I realised your maths are wrong...on more than one count...

I do see your general point though!
 

stevoc

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Yeah that was one of the attacking performances. They do have a go at the lesser sides. They even have a go at the midtable sides like Arsenal, Everton etc. Maybe you caught their games against us and City only where they couldn’t be more defensive if they tried.
No more than just those games, I'm not saying he always sets up ultra defensively. Just that he's a pragmatic defence first manager, there's nothing wrong with that it works for mid-table teams.

They'll of course be more attacking against certain opposition, but they're still primarily a counter attacking side.
 

stevoc

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I would agree that's how they play the top teams. It would be foolish not to, imo.

But that's not how they've played against the lower half teams this year. In their last two games, for example, they scored 6 goals in the first half, and had 25 shots on goal. They play direct football, sure, but I don't believe their main goal is to lock up a game and just wait for a counter or a set piece.
They are ultra defensive against top teams. But whenever I've seen them this season it's still been how Moyes usually sets up and how he's always set up. Deep back 4, 2 sitting midfielders, try to be hard to break down and hit teams on the counter. Now there's nothing wrong with that style of play and yes they'll be more expansive against certain opposition (I don't watch all their games). But you'd have a hard time convincing me that West Ham don't for the most part play as I've just described them.

I also don't see why a team like them would somehow be an embarassment to the league. I know most West Ham fans prefer this somewhat old school style to the prettier but ineffective Pellegrini period.
To be fair I never made that claim.
 

RashyForPM

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No more than just those games, I'm not saying he always sets up ultra defensively. Just that he's a pragmatic defence first manager, there's nothing wrong with that it works for mid-table teams.

They'll of course be more attacking against certain opposition, but they're still primarily a counter attacking side.
Agree. Point was just that they are not a Burnley with good players, for example.
 

fergosaurus

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I couldn't believe we are top of the top 6 table after so many dire big games this season, then I realised your maths are wrong...on more than one count...

I do see your general point though!
Doh. That explains why it took me a couple of goes to pass maths! I've edited it and hopefully it makes more sense. I gave us and Leicester more points so it actually makes a stronger case for West Ham.
 

hmchan

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They are ultra defensive against top teams. But whenever I've seen them this season it's still been how Moyes usually sets up and how he's always set up. Deep back 4, 2 sitting midfielders, try to be hard to break down and hit teams on the counter. Now there's nothing wrong with that style of play and yes they'll be more expansive against certain opposition (I don't watch all their games). But you'd have a hard time convincing me that West Ham don't for the most part play as I've just described them.



To be fair I never made that claim.
You'd have a hard time convincing me that Soucek is a sitting midfielder when he has been such an attacking threat and put in so many goals. He is a typical box-to-box who constantly attacks opposition's box and he doesn't just sit in front of the back 4.
 

stevoc

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You'd have a hard time convincing me that Soucek is a sitting midfielder when he has been such an attacking threat and put in so many goals. He is a typical box-to-box who constantly attacks opposition's box and he doesn't just sit in front of the back 4.
I would mostly agree he is a box to box midfielder, yes he does attack, against some teams more than others. I never said they play with 2 dedicated defensive midfielders who sit in front of the defence the entire game. I said from what I've seen of West Ham this season (and Moyes teams in general) Soucek and Noble will often sit deep as their starting position. They'll try to keep it tight and then hit teams on the counter, this is when Soucek attacks and probably gets most of his goals (as well as from set pieces).

I could be wrong as I don't watch all their matches, but a quick check on which positions he's played this season on Transfermarkt says this.

33 games, 28 Defensive Midfield, 3 in Central Midfield and 1 as an attacking Midfielder.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/tomas-soucek/leistungsdaten/spieler/283628
 

hmchan

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I would mostly agree he is a box to box midfielder, yes he does attack, against some teams more than others. I never said they play with 2 dedicated defensive midfielders who sit in front of the defence the entire game. I said from what I've seen of West Ham this season (and Moyes teams in general) Soucek and Noble will often sit deep as their starting position. They'll try to keep it tight and then hit teams on the counter, this is when Soucek attacks and probably gets most of his goals (as well as from set pieces).

I could be wrong as I don't watch all their matches, but a quick check on which positions he's played this season on Transfermarkt says this.

33 games, 28 Defensive Midfield, 3 in Central Midfield and 1 as an attacking Midfielder.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/tomas-soucek/leistungsdaten/spieler/283628
Now I really doubt how many West Ham games you've seen this season. I've watched ~90% of their games and I'm confident to say none of this is true. Soucek's partner has been Rice throughout the season until his recent injury, and Noble is only occassionally subbed in at final minutes to play the AM role (to hold out the lead).

The position defined by transfermarkt is arbitrary, especially when it comes to midfielders. You can see them sometimes define Fred/McTominay as DM and sometimes as CM, despite they are essentially playing in the same system. No offence but it would be a bit naive if you simply translate their definition of DM into a sitting midfielder.
 

stevoc

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Now I really doubt how many West Ham games you've seen this season. I've watched ~90% of their games and I'm confident to say none of this is true. Soucek's partner has been Rice throughout the season until his recent injury, and Noble is only occassionally subbed in at final minutes to play the AM role (to hold out the lead).
I'm aware, I said Noble as he came to mind as i was typing my last post. I watched the highlights of the Wolves game this morning and the last West Ham game i watched vs United he started both. I could have said Rice who is an actual DM and it wouldn't have changed my point i don't think.

I've watched ~90% of their games and I'm confident to say none of this is true.
Two points, first you've watched 90% of West Hams games this season? Genuinely interested are you a West Ham fan?

Secondly so you are saying West Ham aren't a counter attacking side?

Well ok they have been when I've watched them.

The position defined by transfermarkt is arbitrary, especially when it comes to midfielders. You can see them sometimes define Fred/McTominay as DM and sometimes as CM, despite they are essentially playing in the same system. No offence but it would be a bit naive if you simply translate their definition of DM into a sitting midfielder.
I did say i could be wrong to be fair and I think everyone knows Transfermarkt aren't 100% accurate. All I'm saying is whenever I've watched them their midfielders sit deep for the most part, Transfermarkt might interpret that as them playing as a DM. And again when I say a sitting midfielder I don't necessarily mean a dedicated DM. And of course my opinion of Moyes formation might be coloured by watching his teams over the last 19-20 years.
 

hmchan

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I'm aware, I said Noble as he came to mind as i was typing my last post. I watched the highlights of the Wolves game this morning and the last West Ham game i watched vs United he started both. I could have said Rice who is an actual DM and it wouldn't have changed my point i don't think.



Two points, first you've watched 90% of West Hams games this season? Genuinely interested are you a West Ham fan?

Secondly so you are saying West Ham aren't a counter attacking side?

Well ok they have been when I've watched them.



I did say i could be wrong to be fair and I think everyone knows Transfermarkt aren't 100% accurate. All I'm saying is whenever I've watched them their midfielders sit deep for the most part, Transfermarkt might interpret that as them playing as a DM. And again when I say a sitting midfielder I don't necessarily mean a dedicated DM. And of course my opinion of Moyes formation might be coloured by watching his teams over the last 19-20 years.
I would say I'm a close follower of West Ham. I just love watching football in my free time and West Ham have been one of the teams I prefer to watch since 2015. But of course if United play against West Ham I wll definitely want us to win. So call me whatever you like, I just happen to watch most of their games.

I really don't understand the definition of "a counter attacking side". If you think football is binary and all tactics other than keeping possession are counter attacking, well then West Ham surely are (so as many teams in the league). My stance is close to @TrustInOle and you could refer to #885 on this point.

According to the Premier League, we score the same number of goals from counter attack as West Ham. Do you consider us as "a counter attacking side"? Leeds score more goals from counter attack, but I don't see people call their tactics "outdated" or "dinosaur".

Our definitions towards "a sitting midfielder" are also different. "A sitting midfielder", as the name suggests, is a midfielder literally "sitting" in front of the backline for the whole game and he seldom or never breaks forward to attack. Classic examples are Carrick and Busquets. It's hard to discuss if we don't have a concensus on this term.

If you follow this thread long enough you would know I've also criticized Moyes on multiple occassions. He's nowhere near a perfect manager and I agree sometimes he's too conservative. But some fans' perspective towards him is clearly skewed based on the limited matches they watch (usually big matches) and his failure at United. This is not fair.

Another thing that's not fair is that some classify Moyes, Hodgson, Hughes etc. as the same type of managers and judge them as a group. You'll know they deploy very different tactics if you have actually watched their games. On the other day Palace were playing short-passing football with a lot of one-twos and people still assumed they played long ball.
 
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stevoc

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I would say I'm a close follower of West Ham. I just love watching football in my free time and West Ham have been one of the teams I prefer to watch since 2015. But of course if United play against West Ham I wll definitely want us to win. So call me whatever you like, I just happen to watch most of their games.
:lol:

I wasn't judging mate as i said i was genuinely interested. I didn't know if you were a United fan or a West Ham fan.

According to the Premier League, we score the same number of goals from counter attack as West Ham. Do you consider us as "a counter attacking side"? Leeds score more goals from counter attack, but I don't see people call their tactics "outdated" or "dinosaur".
Primarily yes ideally I think thats how Solskjaer would like to play most sides. Though it doesn't always work out as teams know how good we are on the counter and tend to sit deep against more and more these days.

I would say Bielsa's teams aren't as defensive minded as Moyes teams though. Moyes has been known throughout his career as a pragmatic manager.

Our definitions towards "a sitting midfielder" are also different. "A sitting midfielder", as the name suggests, is a midfielder literally "sitting" in front of the backline for the whole game and he seldom or never breaks forward to attack. Classic examples are Carrick and Busquets. It's hard to discuss if we don't have a concensus on this term.
Well we see it differently, i meant sitting as in midfielders who sit when a team (usually a counter attacking team) are in their defensive shape. As opposed to a true DM who protects the defence.
 

Judge Red

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They’ve looked good for a while but this is the result that will make them believe they’re worthy of the top four.
 

Cloud7

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West Ham keep accumulating these leads then almost blowing them. Probably something for El Moyes to try to work on.
 

Feed Me

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I couldn't believe we are top of the top 6 table after so many dire big games this season, then I realised your maths are wrong...on more than one count...

I do see your general point though!
The problem is that United have been judged against the artificial construct of the Big Six.
 

Foxbatt

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He always fits into the clubs just below the top. His disaster at United probably damaged him a lot more than what most people think. If he gets into Europe ( I think he definitely will at least into the EL) it's a big plus for him and WestHam. He will probably do an Everton with WestHam and keep them around the top half and getting into EL regularly and maybe even the CL occasionally.
 

Comet49

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I was surprised he got the United job because of his lack of experience in Europe. He made mistakes, like others I think the job was too big for him, but I’m glad he’s doing well now and hope West Ham qualify for the CL.