I detested him for so long but I’m actually pleased for him. Doing a great job.
David Moyes West Ham Manager (Again) | European Champion
- Thread starter Damien
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Whenever I see his name, it still gives me nightmares !
But I will love him on Sunday if he beats those other feckers !
But I will love him on Sunday if he beats those other feckers !
He's a very good manager. He wasn't the right fit for United but that doesn't make him a terrible manager.
The players had no respect for him from day 1, so he was never going to make it here.
Ridiculous how?
Everton consistently had the 6th-8th highest wage bill in the league during his time there and that's round about where he always finished. It's been well established for many years that a team's wage bill and their league finish are intrinsically linked.
Yeah they had a few bad years before he took over and he did a great job in establishing them as a solid mid-table outfit. But let's not pretend he turned a small club into into a big one. Everton are and were one one of the biggest clubs in England.
Evra said the other week when he first came in he said to the players you lot win everything so you need to teach me. You can't take someone seriously after that.
They may well have been a big club in name, some big clubs in name are languishing in lower leagues but he turned them round and made them solid and playing up to their name. That is a great achievement in itself. The club could therefore invest as they became successful. You still have to manage the players to get the best out of them.
A good football manager who's at his level at around mid table, was not the right fit for us at all which is why he failed.
If it was that simple, we should have won at least 5 titles in the last decade...
Eh, that's basically what I said mate.
But let's not ignore the tonne of research that supports teams by and large finishing in or around where their wage bill is in terms of size. You can do a good job of getting the team with the 6th-8th biggest wage bill in the country to finish around 5th-6th without having to perform miracles to achieve that, which is exactly what I said.
It is though and there's been a lot of research done that backs it up. Most teams, most years consistently finish in or around where their wage bill lies in terms of size.
E.g. if you have the 4th biggest wage bill in the league then 9 times out of 10 you'll most likely finish a few places above or below that.
Off course there's a correlation, but there's many more factors at play. You're really arguing in favour of Moyes>Ole here by the way.
United have had the highest wage bill for 5 years in a row, yet in that time, they've finished 6th on two occasions and have never really come close to a title.
West Ham last year had the 10th highest wage bill, yet finished 5th.
Pretty sure you are incorrect on that one mate. Uniteds wage bill has decreased over the last 3-4 years.
Also don't remember even mentioning Solskjaer so not sure why you are.
Hope he wins the League Cup.
Said it all along that he's a good manager. He made way too many mistakes at united in a short period of general turmoil. In hindsight if he had just been a little more patient in stuff like getting his own staff in it might have turned out different
Wages PL
No, but you were downplaying Moyes' achievements. He clearly overachieved last season, by all metrics, including your own. That was all I was pointing out, really.
Insane thing is if they beat the Dippers (big if with Moyes' record) and Utd win or draw with City, they'll be second.
Very interested to see what team they put out on Thursday as they only really need one win from three games to finish top. They've been rotating as it is but I am interested to see if they attempt to rest one or more of Rice, Bowen and Souceck.
Very interested to see what team they put out on Thursday as they only really need one win from three games to finish top. They've been rotating as it is but I am interested to see if they attempt to rest one or more of Rice, Bowen and Souceck.
Pretty sure those numbers aren't correct. Our wage bill last season was less than Pool and City and comparable to Chelsea
https://theathletic.com/2717019/202...orld-to-on-a-par-with-ac-milan-and-tottenham/
Seeing as that site is claiming Uniteds wage bill is almost double City's I'm going to assume its nonsense.
Going into last season United had the 2nd biggest wage bill after City. Liverpool overtook us last season and after a raft of new contracts over the summer they must be a fair margin ahead by now.
https://www.google.com/url?q=https:...kQFnoECAYQAg&usg=AOvVaw0nEzeW_xpYisQgTb_uz-hQ
Also I think United only had the highest wage bill for a few of the last 7-8 seasons.
No I wasn't actually I was just putting them in perspective. I said he isn't performing miracles which he obviously isn't or wasn't.
I’d argue that despite an FA cup win, Lvg set us back further.
This. I’m glad he’s found his groove again. He did a great job at Everton and it was a shame just how quickly those achievements were undermined and written off due to lasting bitterness at his departure. He could’ve been a success here and at the time I believed he would be, but it turned out to be a catalogue of errors largely of his own making.
That's not true mate, I remember compiling this ages ago as I too am aware of the clubs performing around their wage bill thing and I like to use it gauge manager performance:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/dav...-gone-pedantic-sod-sarni.433696/post-21704487
He punched above his weight there and they only just scraped a top 8 wage bill once.
Edit: If using this guy's set of figures they had the 8th highest twice:
Unfortunately he too uses the same Telegraph link I did for a lot of it, which is now behind a paywall. Either way "consistently 6th-8th highest wage bill in the league" isn't right.
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So was it 8th highest once or twice?
Did they have the 6th highest at some points like I've read in the past? Who knows.
Is United's wage bill almost twice City's or is it 3rd-4th behind City and Liverpool? Again who knows.
All these articles are most likely guesses or complete bullshit. So fair enough if they might not have had the 6th highest wage bill mate, my point was they had a mid table wage bill and finished mid table. He wasn't performing miracles.
The king of premier league
I believe they had the 8th highest once. The 9 seasons of data that we both used from The Telegraph were sourced by that publication from the Deloitte Money League, which is something of an industry leader when it comes to reporting on football finances.
For some reason despite the 09/10 season featuring on that infographic the reddit poster has chosen to go with a list from Talksport instead where they had Everton in joint 8th alongside Sunderland and West Ham on £54m. Deloite had them 10th that season.We both used the same Guardian sources for the final 2 season that Moyes was there who I'd have more faith in than Talksport personally speaking.
Did they have the 6th highest at some points? I strongly don't believe they did as like I said, Deloitte are reputable data collectors and their info covers 9 of the 11 seasons.
I've no idea about United's wage bill. Not sure how that's relevant seeing as I'm not even talking about that.
Once again, I don't think Deloiite guess or publish bullshit. As far as I know they compile published club accounts and get their data from those which accounts for 9/11ths of that dataset. I believe Deloitte themselves now charge for their report and have done for past decade or so, so it's harder to find their stuff for free now.
Performing miracles? Depends how one defines it. Like I said, I like this stat of wage bill vs. league position so am fairly familiar with it and honestly you'll be hard pressed to find a team or manager who did better when it came to finishing above par over a period of around 10 years. In that actual 11 years, I'd be extremely surprised if they weren't #1 in that category when it came to consistently doing it.
I know someone with a Telegraph log in, can check that last one if you want? Genuinely happy to but if you don't trust the data then I'd be wasting both of our time.
Edit: An afterthought. if these articles are likely guesses or bullshit then why did they only become guesses and bullshit when I posted something contrary to what you believed to be the case? Why weren't they bullshit when you read somewhere that they had the 6th highest wage bill and why did you say had they consistently had the 6th-8th highest wage bill when you actually think there's no way to reliably know this information?
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Fair enough not sure what to believe personally. What I do believe though is even if they only had the 8th highest once. Their wage bill wouldn't have been that far off the other 6th-12th wage bills so I stand by my point. He did a good job but wasn't performing miracles.
I was discussing this with someone else in the thread who posted a link claiming United's wage bill is almost double City's. That's why I brought it up to highlight how far off these articles can be.
Doubt you could post it here mate, pretty sure there are rules about posting stuff form behind pay walls. So I'll take your word that it said that in that particular article.
Nah mate I already suspected most of them to be bullshit before you replied to me. As I was discussing this subject with someone else earlier as I said, so read a fair amount of these wage bill articles today and a lot of them seem to contradict each other.
Moyes would have been suggested for the Manchester United job if he hadn't already been here, no question about it.
Probably, but then lots of people have mentioned lots of people.
I don't necessarily say that to be dismissive. Well, maybe a little but it's still true!
Currently doing a not massively dissimilar job to Rodgers and he's been mentioned. That does ignore that Rodgers has won stuff in Scotland, which some would dismiss and him going close for the title with Liverpool, something Moyes never has done. Still, comparing the past 15 months or so they're not that far apart so I could see some focusing on that period for the two of them.
Quite a few fancy Potter who has yet to finish as high up the table but then he hasn't really had the chance to realistically do so. Again, I could see the former as justification for at least a mention of Moyes if he hadn't been here.
I've seen someone saying they'd like us to hire Vieira today.
There'd be some suggesting him for sure.
This Moyes guy looks quite decent.
Maybe we should consider him as our next manager.
Someone. Anyone?
Maybe we should consider him as our next manager.
Someone. Anyone?
Yeah - he booted Haller and Anderson out of the club due to their egos and lack of effort!
I would also argue Rice and Antonio are currently two of the star players of the Premier League. Moyes has really coached these two up to a high level. Cannot believe he turned a former utility player into one of the best strikers in the league. Young Rice has really developed under his watch, like he did with guys like Rooney, Arteta and Rodwell.
Exactly. He was the one who took a massive wrecking ball to the squad, which had been left untouched by Moyes. In fact he would have followed a gradual path to improving what we had, instead of Louie's madcap full-on revolution.
My favourite Moyes fact, which I didn’t even realize until recently, is that he was teammates with Beckham at Preston.
Nothing to do with much else, but there you go.
Nothing to do with much else, but there you go.
Whats worse was how people disregarded his great management at Everton. The rewriting of history based on his United failure was terrible.
Yes he was. His record at penny transfers was also incredible.
Nah.
Shows what you're arguing based on. Actually, you're basing it on memes and buzzwords rather than facts as most others here are. You've been hating on moyes for years and now you can't digest the facts.
No it shows how ridiculous some on here are that you say Moyes wasn't performing miracles, which he obviously wasn't and people ludicrously try to argue that he was.
Give me one 'fact' that proves Moyes was performing miracles?
You can't.
This is from 2011, but:
"The latest figures have shown that Everton manager David Moyes is the best value-for-money football boss.
"The figures also showed that Everton has the lowest "price-per-point" ratio among the top ten Premier League teams.
"Everson won 415 points, each costing 48,192 pounds, between Chairman Bill Kenwright's 2004 takeover and the end of the last season."
Now, he did this over long period in charge, so it was not just a freak season. This is no doubt why Sir Alex saw himself in Moyes' approach, as he was never the biggest spender, at least usually. So he was able to get regular top eight finishes with a small squad, a low transfer budget and using the loan market.
Yeah he did a great job at Everton, made them a solid and consistent mid-table side but he wasn't performing miracles.
I think you are splitting hairs now. It is clear that he was pound-for-pound the best manager in the league, and that was down to his meticulous approach to the job. This is something that clearly impressed Sir Alex, and made him see Moyes as a modern version of himself.
In fact, the Financial Times made it clear years ago that he was extremely forward thinking in his approach.
"Moyes, while still at little Preston North End until 2002, was reputedly the only manager outside the Premier League who bought statistics on players from the data provider Prozone. When Moyes joined Everton, he brought with him the numbers and the mindset. Probably all Premier League clubs now employ a performance analyst, but often the guy is locked up in a backroom with his laptop and never meets the manager.
"At Finch Farm, the offices of Moyes’s main performance analysts, Smith and Brown, are opposite his own. Smith says: “He is quite demanding in terms of data. In terms of managers, he is probably as into it as any.” (A measure of the grunts’ awe for Moyes is that they rarely refer to him by name – what to call him? “Moyes”? “Mr Moyes”? “David”?) Moyes will often march into the offices across the corridor firing out questions: how efficient is next Saturday’s opponent at scoring from throw-ins? What types of passes do their midfielders make? When Everton face Tottenham’s superstar Gareth Bale, Moyes wants “an assessment of where Bale is actually picking up the ball compared to the areas where you think he is working,” says Brown.
"Perhaps the greatest edge Moyes brings is by analysing videos of matches – of Everton and their future opponents. “The level that he goes through the minutiae of the video,” marvels Smith. “Stopping it, playing it again, going through it slowly, from another angle, saying, ‘Go and bring in so-and-so and see what he says about it.’ I think it’s part of why he doesn’t often get it wrong.” Brown adds: “The traditional manager, who leaves at two or three in the afternoon – he couldn’t be further removed from doing that.” Moyes has no particular ideology of how to play football. Arsène Wenger of Arsenal, say, has always striven for a fast-passing attacking game. Moyes, by contrast, tailors Everton’s style to each new opponent. He works out what the opposition does – and then tries to stop it. Before facing Manchester City, for instance, he found the positions where City’s playmaker David Silva usually receives the ball, and put men there."
