Decades Chain Draft: Final - Gio vs Beam/Synco

[Physiocrat]

Gio

Beam/Synco

TEAM GIO
WHAT ARE THE FINAL CHANGES?

• Luka Modric is the final piece of the midfield jigsaw to round off a midfield trio with Roy Keane and Frank Rijkaard. Those are three of the most complete midfielders of all time, where Rijkaard brings tactical acumen, Keane injects high-octane drive, while Modric offers a wee bit of everything.
  
  
• Rijkaard will help to screen balls into Van Basten, who himself will have yet another battle with Jurgen Kohler. There looks to be a series of similarly matched duels between Demyanenko and Chislenko, and Zanetti and Blokhin, and all the while Moore covering behind provides gold-standard insurance cover. As defensive cores go it is as solid as they come.
  
  
• Zico remains the main man. His partnership with Henry should have shades of Bergkamp/Henry. And he gets to float into the spaces around the base of Beam's midfield, all the while knowing that both Henry and Simonsen will attack any space he vacates. He has Modric supporting from midfield whose technique and selflessness always gets the best out of his team-mates.
  
  
• The 4-3-3 should sing with:
  • a false 9 in Zico allowing overloads into midfield
  • a thoroughbred play-stretcher in Henry
  • the graft and busy-ness of Simonsen to come short and burst forward
  • flank-dominating full-backs to get up and down but also slide inside to overload
  • all-commanding Rijkaard at the base able to drop in
  • two-way game of the midfield trio all of whom ooze quality on the ball

TEAM BEAM/SYNCO

Tactics

On the ball: Attacking football with a fluid front four around van Basten - fast, direct attacks when possible, a precise possession game when necessary.

Against the ball: Initial pressing to regain the ball or slow down the counter; otherwise a tight 442 that stifles Gio's mobile offense with a collective defending approach.

Our team:

In my eyes, the team assembled by Beam has been practically final-worthy from the start. So here we are. A short recap:

• The front four is spectacular individually and perfectly balanced collectively. Pace, skill, goals, creativity, match-winning qualities, you name it.
• The central midfield duo is equally fine-tuned: Redondo the ultimate DM/DLP, Kanté the high energy, ball-winning DM/CM
• The backline features an all-time great, rather progressive sweeper/stopper combo, and two modern fullbacks who offer the full range between defensive excellence and world class on-the-ball skills
• Alisson is equally complete, and crucial for initiating fast transitions, as well as a fluid, progressive in buildup game

The little improvement still necessary was optimising the backline for a slightly more expansive style. This is its final incarnation, with Bergomi coming in for Vierchowod. Our reasons:

As a lightning-quick, physical stopper Bergomi offers much of the same qualities as Vierchowod, but is a better allround player and (in our eyes) better fit with Passarella. His style and skillset is more flexible than Vierchowod's - especially valuable against a fluid offense like Gio's. At the same time, he's still being the no-nonsense complement for our Argentinian libero. Plus, he's a good deal better on the ball than Pietro - a trait we always value.

The opponent:

We'll have to see how Gio lines up, there are a few options. A few key points in any case:

• If Gio plays 70-74 Moore at CB (alternative might be Rijkaard), our attackers will target him as much as possible
• Gio's central thrust will met by the defensive square of Kanté, Redondo, Passarella, Bergomi. The aim is to collectively deprive them of space, while using the abundance of 1:1 defending skill in our team (which includes the fullbacks).
• The defensive workrate of our wide attackers will be crucial to defend Gio's attacking fullbacks - few if any better than Blokhin and Chislenko in this department

 

[Physiocrat]

@Gio @Synco @Jim Beam

Game on!

Gio please add the player peaks here.

 

[Synco]

Thanks @Physiocrat and good luck @Gio. What a nice final matchup.

Let's go

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Dead even as both teams have tactics and personnel nailed on.

Felt that Beanco had a bit more flair and creativity running throughout, just a sliver more, so have given it to them. Alisson still?

 

[Synco]

Okay, I guess it's time to look for chinks in the armour. At first sight, I can see two possible problems in Gio's team:

- The midfield seems rather conservative for a false 9 system that (imo) would thrive on a maximum of presence and fluidity in high areas. I know all three CMs are known for their box to box game, but a true creative final third player à la Silva may have been beneficial as a partner to Zico. In addition to Modric to be clear, who starts out a bit deeper in comparison.

- 70-74 Moore, who had a pretty sharp decline by the second half of the period, physically and in terms of mental quickness. More on that later.

 

[Synco]

Alisson still?

If he performs like he did on Monday, we're happy.

 

[General_Elegancia]

@Synco Talking about Passarella: Will Passarella bomb forward when he sees the opportunity or will he stay at the back most of the time ( to avoid the space behind that could be exposed)?

 

[Jim Beam]

@Gio best of luck, lovely team. Synco is the leader and man in charge now. I will just make 1 or 2 posts later and it will be more 'informative' posts about Redondo - Laudrup - Van Basten spine. Tbf, more something I have on my chest regarding those 3 players, especially Redondo.

Let the team with more votes win!

 

[Synco]

@Synco Talking about Passarella: Will Passarella bomb forward when he sees the opportunity or will he stay at the back most of the time ( to avoid the space behind that could be exposed)?

He will stay largely disciplined and pick the right moments to advance - but from the full games I have seen (River and Argentina), that was his game anyway.

For illustration, Sjor has made an extensive game comp that matches my impressions:



For about 2/3 of the game, Passarella concentrates on covering actions in the backline and being a pragmatic DLP in possession. If he's in the opposition half, it's mostly for set pieces (trademark free kick goal), or what looks like the aftermath of set pieces. He only starts joining the attack regularly about 13 minutes into the video. As I understand the situation, Argentina needed a win to avoid elimination, and at that time the game was either tied or Argentina a goal down. (It ended 2-2 and Argentina crashed out.)

In short, he modeled his game after the tactical situation, which is what we'd want from him here as well. But he has freedom if sees an opportunity (why play him otherwise?). We have a set of tactically astute defenders and CMs (plus a great sweeper keeper) to provide balance and cover. A reason to pick Bergomi over Vierchowod was in fact that we feel he fits this covering task better than Pietro, who is best when he can be hyper-aggressive as well.

 

[Gio]

All the best guys. Nice team, good quality throughout - don't have any issues with it at all.

 

[Gio]

- The midfield seems rather conservative for a false 9 system that (imo) would thrive on a maximum of presence and fluidity in high areas. I know all three CMs are known for their box to box game, but a true creative final third player à la Silva may have been beneficial as a partner to Zico. In addition to Modric to be clear, who starts out a bit deeper in comparison.

It looks similar or even less conservative - positionally - than other successful midfield trios we have seen, eg Busquets/Xavi/Iniesta, or Casemiro/Kroos/Modric. We have more end product in my view than those midfields. Modric and Keane were just exceptional at adjusting to the needs of the game. Hence why both have a high proportion of their goals at the highest stages, such as Modric at the World Cup or Euros, or Keane in Champions League semi-finals (or Rijkaard in the European Cup Final). They could control games and choose the right moment to move forward to decide the game. And the higher the stakes, the better.

The thinking around the midfield was to have three players in the centre who were all great on and off the ball. That to me gives us an advantage here, notwithstanding your own midfield has a lot of class.

And in terms of the players to bounce off Zico, I think we have plenty in Modric, Simonsen and Henry. I would also fancy Zico to enjoy Keane's early passes that are punched up quickly, almost Falcao-style, to his forwards.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Gio How good was Ronnie Hellstrom?

 

[Physiocrat]

@Synco Are you aware of the argument that Bergomi hated playing in Sacchi's zonal system? I wonder if he would work well in a zonal system.

 

[Jim Beam]

@Gio How good was Ronnie Hellstrom?

In 1978, he finished sixth in the ranking for the Ballon d'Or, awarded to Europe's best footballer. He also won Guldbollen for the second time in his career, being the first and only goalkeeper to do so

I picked him once also, he was excellent by all accounts and one of standouts GK in 70's. Don't think he is a weak link.

Hi @Gio, let's double on Synco

 

[Gio]

@Gio How good was Ronnie Hellstrom?

That he came 6th in the Ballon D'Or in 1978 was rather impressive for a goalkeeper. Especially one who played for a relatively unfashionable club - Kaiserslautern - and country - Sweden.

Or to put it in other terms, that makes him the 9th highest ranked goalkeeper in the history of the award (Yashin, Zoff, Maier, Viktor, Shilton, Kahn, Schmeichel, Buffon and Neuer). And he's almost unique in that group in gaining that recognition without the benefit of his team winning a major international competition.

From what I've seen, he looked like your typical 70s keeper - tall, strong, good handling and reflexes.

 

[Jim Beam]

We do rate Alisson passing ability though as one of our biggest assets as well. But, as it's the case with older keepers it is hard to tell which one would transfer their game well in modern football.

Ok, will shut up now and back to my Redondo post.

 

[Gio]

• If Gio plays 70-74 Moore at CB (alternative might be Rijkaard), our attackers will target him as much as possible

This Bobby Moore?!



Target him all you want. He's the best defender on the park.

I agree he faded by the end of the time period from 1969/70 to 1973/74. But that applies to a shedload of players whose peaks straddle two different time periods. For example, would you choose Xavi from 05-09 or from 10-14? Impossible really when his peak straddles the two.

Ballon D'Or rankings:

1966 - 4th
1968 - 22nd
1970 - 2nd (narrowly to Muller)
1971 - 10th (2nd defender behind Beckenbauer)
1972 - 7th (as above)
1973 - 19th

Eric Batty's World XIs - Moore selected in 1968, 1969, 1971, 1972 and 1973.

 

[Jim Beam]

So, intro. This team was made by luck mostly and me being dumb not to read the rules. I've started to build a team thinking that once you pick a player all clubs that he played for are blocked. That is why I went for Blokhin and then I was on Scirea --> Tigana/Elkjaer route. Luckily, just as I was about to make my 2nd pick someone mentioned that it is only related to an era. Nevermind, once that got into my head I realized that Van Basten and then Laudrup, Redondo route is open. As with all drafts, picking teams are the most fun part, but I genuinely jumped once it got to me I could field Redondo/Laudrup midfield to pair with Van Basten and Blokhin.

Now, we Redondo fanatics are a strange bunch. But, anyone who really witnessed Redondo at his absolute best was in love with a player. He is underrated. There was a @Raees thread about him about 20 days ago and I hold on from replaying at the time.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/how-good-was-redondo.473793/

Raees knows football and I love his channels, but saying that Redondo needed to have a defensive partner in midfield and a more creative role upfront is like saying you need a winger in a 4-4-2. It goes beyond question. I mean, which number 6, or number 6/8 hybrid (because he is closest thing to Frenkie de Jong only much better) doesn't need that? There was not a single DM who was judged the way Redondo just because Redondo was such a complete player. The only DM who had such influence on both sides of the pitch. There were maybe some better in defensive sense (not many in my opinion), maybe some in offensive sense or if you have a counter attackinng team you will chose Pirlo for example, but none of them could do it all on such a high level.

Year is 1994 for when Real Madrid bought Redondo and that same team didn't win European Cup for 28 years. The same Real Madrid that is now known as the sure thing to win it. With a Redondo lead midfield they win it finally again in 1997/98 and in 1999/2000. Of course Redondo wasn't the only reason, but his stamp on their midfield was immense. I agree with Raees that he did need a creative presence upfront to really lift the team, but it wasn't Laudrup who was also a bit old at the time or past it Diego who made Redondo better, but the other way around. He brought both of them back to their youth. Feck, he made Maradona look like Maradona again in 1994.

Combination Redondo - Maradona against Greece.


One of my favorites game of Redondo...

https://www.managingmadrid.com/2020...hletic-bilbao-5-0-real-madrid-1996-highlights

This game is known as "La Noche De Michael Laudrup", but it was pretty much all Redondo.

In fact, the match may as well have been named “La Noche de Fernando Redondo” for how he carried Madrid’s offensive play. Redondo’s press resistance, ball carrying, and willingness to involve others in rondo-like sequences were the sole form of Madrid’s creation for most of the first half. He was also ever-present against the ball, using his positioning to pick up loose balls and re-circulate possession.

Spoiler: Real Madrid tactics

Luis Enrique on left back is probably the most hilarious thing.

A pretty much classic 4-4-2 because Laudrup really prefered that left side and could pick a dangerous cross at all times. But Redondo was running the game. The point am trying to make is something that @antohan mentioned in our first game and I was a bit baffled with it. What if Laudrup gets shut down, who will be creative hub of the team? First of all, Laudrup thrived in a dynamic, fluid system his whole life. If there is an open game and back to back action which this game should provide he is impossible to be contained because there will be space and options all around. Even if he gets shut down, this version of Van Basten was all action striker who was both provider, scorer and could break any team coming from the deeper areas. If he gets closed down or the other team puts focus on him, Redondo will run the game from him behind. Pretty much, a perfect storm. And that is not even mentioning Blokhin or Chislenko.

One of the most baffling thing in football considering Argentina struggle after Maradona is Passarella (ironically) not calling Redondo for 1998 WC after he broke Madrid European curse.

In my opinion, Redondo was the most complete DM ever.* And Gio even though I absolutely love Zico as false 9, open the field just a bit more for him to dominate.


*have to take in consideration. Am Redondo fanboy, so might be subjective. Am not wrong though, he was immense.

 

[Synco]

@Synco Are you aware of the argument that Bergomi hated playing in Sacchi's zonal system? I wonder if he would work well in a zonal system.

That was an aspect I looked at thoroughly, and decided it works. Must say, I'm not aware he hated it, he simply never played for Sacchi. Any quotes/links? I think it's quite the opposite actually, he said he loved playing zonal defense for Inter late in his career (tbf a good deal later than our period here), and would have loved to have gotten a chance under Sacchi.

@Gio has made a great case for it when he played Bergomi in similar fashion. It funnily started out with the same inquiry made by you:

Spoiler

@Gio How confident are you that Bergomi would suit a zonal system? I remember reading a while back he never really got to grips with the zonal system.

Reading Sacchi's book now which, funnily enough, touches on this topic. Sacchi didn't call him up to the national team because he wasn't sure about how he'd adapt to a different style of defending and he knew he could trust his Milan robots. In Sacchi's defence it is true he was an archetypal Italian man-marker, but I don't believe that stance has stood the test of time. At different points in his career he played in either a zonal system or as the spare defender whose job was to cover space and ultimately function as a zonal defender when required.

For example, in his first campaign for Inter:

He started off at right-back, initially playing in a zonal marking system, and finished off as a sweeper. He was a warrior in Gigi Simoni’s defence, a man similar to Bersellini, Trapattoni, Bearzot and Cesare Maldini: all of the coaches who best understood how important it was to have a point of reference like him both on the pitch and in the dressing room.

Later in his career:

He knew how to fill different defensive roles, he did well even when he was the libero. This is because, in addition to the technical qualities he had, was something else: how he could support the team.

Towards the end of his career when Roy Hodgson took over:

When I arrived at Inter for the first time, I brought my game system. And it was from Bergomi, who had played all his life with another system, that I expected the greatest resistance. Instead, he showed the greatest enthusiasm, even accepting to play on the left side. Here, just this professionalism and this availability at his age, with everything he had played and won previously, still seem incredible to me today.

On the penultimate season in his career when he played as sweeper and saw him recalled to the Italy squad after a 6 year absence.

That was the best season of my career.

And Beppe's typically deferential verdict on Sacchi:

If Sacchi hasn't called me in all these years, it means that I didn't deserve it. One thing I'm sorry: he never gave me an opportunity, not even for an internship, even if he called a lot of players. It's true that Inter didn't play in the zone, but then with Hodgson I learned the zone and got rich: any player can and must be able to change form.

And at least this January, that argument still won you over

There's of course inavoidable speculation in drafts, as we habitually use players in roles they may not have played historically. What I do is look at a player's traits as they present themselves in games, then see if it fits the envisioned role. Layman version of a scout who may watch a winger and decides he's a potentially great FB. I've cut a game compilation of Bergomi (see the match comp thread) in his trademark stopper role, which combines elements of RB, CB, RWB. I've watched more, including an Italy game where he played alongside Vierchowod, for comparison.

My impression is that of a complete defender who'd have no trouble controlling attackers in space rather than sticking to a man. These Italian man-marking systems had aspects of both anyway, and defenders could switch roles situationally. You can see that in Bergomi's multi-dimensional game, imo. Insofar his late career high as a zonal defender under Hodgson doesn't surprise me. I think with guys like him, younger Maldini, Kohler, 80s McGrath, etc., you can see they have what a modern CB needs. Same for some sweepers. It was just different times, different tactics.

But it's okay to see it differently, there's no hard proof, it's just what I find plausible.

 

[Jim Beam]

Bye, have a good debate.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Gio Thanks for the Hellstrom and indirectly the Bergomi detail.

@Synco That was an interesting all-touch comp of Bergomi, he seemed very well rounded and complete. I agree with your general take on how we use players in drafts - I just remembered the argument Bergomi hated zonal, hence the question (again - I remembered the question just not the answer).

 

[General_Elegancia]

Reading Sacchi's book now which, funnily enough, touches on this topic. Sacchi didn't call him up to the national team because he wasn't sure about how he'd adapt to a different style of defending and he knew he could trust his Milan robots. In Sacchi's defence it is true he was an archetypal Italian man-marker, but I don't believe that stance has stood the test of time. At different points in his career he played in either a zonal system or as the spare defender whose job was to cover space and ultimately function as a zonal defender when required.

For anyone who is curious, what is Sacchi's book? I recommend everyone buys this masterpiece.

Such a joy of a book, you will never be bored even if you've already read for over 1 hour.

 

[Synco]

This Bobby Moore?!



Target him all you want. He's the best defender on the park.

I agree he faded by the end of the time period from 1969/70 to 1973/74. But that applies to a shedload of players whose peaks straddle two different time periods. For example, would you choose Xavi from 05-09 or from 10-14? Impossible really when his peak straddles the two.

Ballon D'Or rankings:

1966 - 4th
1968 - 22nd
1970 - 2nd (narrowly to Muller)
1971 - 10th (2nd defender behind Beckenbauer)
1972 - 7th (as above)
1973 - 19th

Eric Batty's World XIs - Moore selected in 1968, 1969, 1971, 1972 and 1973.

No, this is 1970s Moore, which I have credited as being at the top of his game. But that was the beginning of the relevant five seasons, and things changed.

The Moore I'm talking about is the one that started to struggle badly, making costly errors in high profile games for England, and lost his spot in the team. Some video evidence:

Spoiler: vs Germany, 1972 EURO qualification playoffs

• Moore loses orientation and gives the ball away in his own box, setting up Germany's opening goal (0:59)
• Later, he loses a sprint duel against Held and quite clumsily fouls him for a penalty, which Netzer converts (2:26)

Spoiler: vs Poland, 1973 WC qualification play offs

• Moore acts rather unlucky on a set piece. Maybe an own goal, maybe not, but awkward in any case (although the lesser mishap that game)
• He gets robbed of the ball in buildup by Lubanski, who is through and scores

These were decisive matches for England's qualification campaigns, who missed out on both the 1972 Euros and the 1974 WC as a result. @harms also mentioned a game vs Yugoslavia, I suppose it's this one. Moore looks off the pace indeed in several situations.

After the 1973 game vs Poland, Moore played two friendlies and was subsequently dropped for the return leg vs. Poland (England went out anyway). He played one final friendly in November, but his NT career ended in 1973. Moore's wiki article has more details on his decline.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

This five-year period is hard to pin down, as we have an all-time great at the beginning and a guy who's finished at top level at the end. The decline happening some time in between. But however one rates this, in a game of margins it should count for something.

 

[Gio]

Okay if you want to play that game - you've got a left-back who, at the start of his time period - August 1999, wasn't even a professional footballer. His defensive game was highly inconsistent until he reached his mid-20s. Don't believe me? Take it from the horse's mouth.

Ashley Cole in 2001/02 (season 3 of the period and his first full PL campaign):

"I know I do have to work on my defending, on everything, but mostly on my positional play."

Cole at the 2002 World Cup:

v Sweden

90 mins: Yet another chance for Sweden goes begging. Larsson receives the ball in acres on the right-hand side of the England box after a horrendous Ashley Cole misjudgement.

65 mins: England are on the ropes. They're falling apart. A poor headed clearance by Cole drops to Linderoth, who sends a shot just over the bar which we hear is still sailing. That's the third time it's looked like Sweden were going to take the lead.

v Brazil

48 min: Kleberson getting involved a couple of times down the right wing. Cole getting pulled out of position a couple of times. Joe Hartney feels that Janet probably has grounds for a double harassment case, against both her boss and the office creep.

45 min +2: GOAL England 1 - 1 Brazil. What a goal this was. Ronaldinho takes the ball from the centre circle, dummies Cole this way and that, before feeding Rivaldo on the right-hand edge of the English box. He opens his body and side-foots the ball past Seaman from a difficult angle. You've got to hand it to them, haven't you? Oh.


26 min: Ronaldo beats Cole in the box but his attempt to toe-poke past Seaman is weak.

7 min: Ronaldinho worries Cole down the right; he finds Rivaldo after cutting inside but the shot-happy Barca midfielder (or is it striker?) wastes the chance.

Away to Slovakia - daydreaming for their goal



2004

v Portugal

Rui Costa reveled in the space afforded him behind lone frontman Pauleta in the now traditional 4-2-3-1 formation as Figo and the pacy Sabrosa Simão provided the width and most of the threat. For almost half an hour, an England back four which lined up with perhaps only one of the men who will be in the starting line-up for the Euro 2004 opener against France, Ashley Cole, found the going tough with Cole and right-back Phil Neville struggling to get to grips with Figo and Simão.

It was Cole's fifth-minute error which led to the home side's first chance when his weak clearing header fell to Figo, who drove in a first-time volley which David James did well to turn away.

Euro 2004 - when he finally came of age in the quarters against young Cristiano - the final game of the entire 5-year period. But it wasn't a great tournament from Cole and he had a few wobbles en route:

v France

23 min:
As you might have guessed, France are getting most joy down their right, with Pires attacking his Arsenal team-mate Ashley Cole at every opportunity. From one such foray, Campbell is forced to clear from his six-yard line for a corner. It comes to nothing.

30 mins:
For the umpteenth time, Ashley Cole leaves his foot in on Robert Pires, who ignores his instincts and stays on his feet. Lampard goes in hard on Zidane and concedes a free-kick. It's their clearly best bet.

v Croatia - at fault for the opening goal with his one-footedness forcing him to almost volley past his own keeper.


Fairly consistently through those years he was at fault for goals that England conceded. It was his mid-20s before he became a world-class defender with his instincts further honed under Mourinho at Chelsea.

I think that the younger Cole had a great box-to-box game, but was vulnerable and his positioning wasn't great, as he admitted himself. With the interplay of Zico and Simonsen in that area, he could be the weakest spot in either back line.

 

[Synco]

@Gio That's fair, these periods don't always align with player peaks. As I said: if so, it should count for something, which is up to the observer. Same goes for Cole.

Looks like a similar case in reverse. Upsides pro Cole: at the end of the period, he made the PFA team of the year back-to-back (02-03 and 03-04, the Invincibles season), as well as the 2004 EURO squad of the tournament.

 

[Synco]

Some more comments from neutrals, perhaps?

 

[Gio]

@Jim Beam Really nice post on Redondo. I didn't rate him that especially high during his career, but he's one of the players who I've rated more and more over the years of watching the match compilations. Just a class act.

If I'm looking at how this game pans out, I'm not sure it's a great one for him. Three proper midfielders to occupy him, with only Kante offering that much support in the centre off the ball, and our trio certainly commanding a sizeable share of the possession. And then with Zico dropping into the hole, he's almost Redondo's kryptonite with his nimble dribbling. Redondo sometimes struggled with the job of quelling great 10s of the 1990s like Rivaldo, Djalminha or Hagi, which - fair enough - wouldn't be his forté compared to Kanté. But with the Frenchman duelling it out with Keane and Modric, any overload from Zico is going to cause big issues.

Zico was so clever and incisive with the ball glued to his feet in those areas.

 

[Physiocrat]

Teams are really close. Gio's side is tactically excellent for a 433 false 9 it's kind of like Klopp's Liverpool with Modric as Thiago.

I can see Gio's point about Zico on Redondo but in the organised defensive phase it looks a solid 4411 so I don't see much space for Zico to exploit. That said on the counter it could work.

I went for Beam mainly because Gio is reliant on his full-backs for width which I always think is somewhat suspect on the counter especially with good wingers and a lack a proper high press.

I also think that Moore being slightly off full peak at CB will make more difference than for Cole. I might be undertaking Simonsen a bit but MVB against someone who isn't on top notch form is a problem. I also think based on Sync's all-touch comp that Bergomi is a really great fit for Henry - tactically aware with great physicality.

 

[antohan]

Nice rant on Redondo @Jim Beam

At one point I was seriously thinking about getting the Tenerife one despite the Argie block just to nail him, that's how good he was.

Kid captured my imagination all the way back in June 1987, while reading El Gráfico and finding out there was some kid called Redondo who had been MotM for Argentinos Juniors. He didn't look that round on the photo, har har, I can still hear the goofy Beavis and Butthead laugh in my head.

 

[antohan]

On the game:

Beam: I get a distinct feeling I played against a better team. Don't understand the Vierchowod swap.

Gio: what's up with that teamsheet not listing the half decades? I have to say at times I found the choice of half decades conveniently crow-barred in such a way that you can make a case... but it isn't quite representative of the player you imagine. Not an easy one, I know, I had a hard time with Ronaldinho's half decade myself.

 

[Gio]

On the game:

Beam: I get a distinct feeling I played against a better team. Don't understand the Vierchowod swap.

Gio: what's up with that teamsheet not listing the half decades? I have to say at times I found the choice of half decades conveniently crow-barred in such a way that you can make a case... but it isn't quite representative of the player you imagine. Not an easy one, I know, I had a hard time with Ronaldinho's half decade myself.

Just realised I sent through the wrong one. That was my first draft where I'd forgotten the dates. Here's the second version.

 

[Gio]

@Physiocrat Stick this in the OP please.

 

[antohan]

Wait, you can repeat half decades? Thought that was a fundamental flaw with the reinforcements logic. I guess I missed a raging discussion on that

 

[Synco]

@Jim Beam Really nice post on Redondo. I didn't rate him that especially high during his career, but he's one of the players who I've rated more and more over the years of watching the match compilations. Just a class act.

If I'm looking at how this game pans out, I'm not sure it's a great one for him. Three proper midfielders to occupy him, with only Kante offering that much support in the centre off the ball, and our trio certainly commanding a sizeable share of the possession. And then with Zico dropping into the hole, he's almost Redondo's kryptonite with his nimble dribbling. Redondo sometimes struggled with the job of quelling great 10s of the 1990s like Rivaldo, Djalminha or Hagi, which - fair enough - wouldn't be his forté compared to Kanté. But with the Frenchman duelling it out with Keane and Modric, any overload from Zico is going to cause big issues.

Zico was so clever and incisive with the ball glued to his feet in those areas.

First thing I can say is that a lot of our defending will happen in a formation:

Against the ball: Initial pressing to regain the ball or slow down the counter; otherwise a tight 442 that stifles Gio's mobile offense with a collective defending approach.

Gio's central thrust will met by the defensive square of Kanté, Redondo, Passarella, Bergomi. The aim is to collectively deprive them of space, while using the abundance of 1:1 defending skill in our team (which includes the fullbacks).

So I don't think the maths (bolded) re: Kanté getting overwhelmed with defensive duties and Redondo being kinda lost add up. Kanté will just be a huge factor inside a tight defensive system. And that's an environment where a quality defender (which imo Redondo is) will be in a good position to do the job, benefitting from teamwork, cover from several great defenders, and limited options for oppo attackers such a formation brings.

 

[Synco]

One thing that I think helps us defensively is Gio's relatively narrow approach in that F9 system: Zico needs to vacate the CF space to fall back into midfield, so the wide forwards need to occupy that vacated space to give presence. Gio's attacking FBs will probably go high & wide (among other things, as per OP), but they are expertly covered by Blokhin & Chislenko, both absolute top end in terms of defensive workrate and determination. So, as I imagine the dynamics, the back four can actually contract the central spaces quite heavily (while horizontally shifting with the ball), which will amplify the points about collective defending made in the previous post.

 

[Gio]

One thing that I think helps us defensively is Gio's relatively narrow approach in that F9 system: Zico needs to vacate the CF space to fall back into midfield, so the wide forwards need to occupy that vacated space to give presence. Gio's attacking FBs will probably go high & wide (among other things, as per OP), but they are expertly covered by Blokhin & Chislenko, both absolute top end in terms of defensive workrate and determination. So, as I imagine the dynamics, the back four can actually contract the central spaces quite heavily (while horizontally shifting with the ball), which will amplify the points about collective defending made in the previous post.

I'm not sure, we're not playing a Christmas tree here. It's a classic 4-3-3 that ticks all the boxes in terms of occupying all the channels - outside-left, inside-left, central, inside-right and outside-right. The wide forwards can come inside and go outside. One possible pattern is the full-backs can drop into midfield, providing another overload, while the wide forwards stay wide to force the defence to protect 75 yards of width. Or the full-backs can hurtle down the flanks, while the wide forwards head for goal. Crucially though these central midfield overloads repeated time and time again is going to get the likes of Zico, Simonsen and Modric into spaces that can hurt the opposition.

 

[Gio]

I also think that Moore being slightly off full peak at CB will make more difference than for Cole.

Basic premise of this I just don't agree with.

Firstly because Moore's peak is clearly 1970 when he was imperious in Mexico and crowned it with that absolutely impeccable dismantling of Brazil's attack. And going by the Ballon D'Or ratings and the views of journalists around at the time, the Moore of 69/70, 70/71, 71/72 seems to be the highest regarded. 4 of his 5 highest Ballon D'Or rankings came in that second period. Now it seems counter-intuitive to choose another period, where Moore doesn't quite reach the same individual defensive heights, just to avoid a drop-off at the end of his career.

Secondly because we have gone all the way through the draft accepting that the majority of players' peaks straddle decades. Can't recall it ever being an issue unless it was (a) clearly a weaker decade for that player, or (b) an inaccurate use of that player (eg using Scholes as a DLP in 95-04). I don't think either are the case here.

 

[Synco]

I'm not sure, we're not playing a Christmas tree here. It's a classic 4-3-3 that ticks all the boxes in terms of occupying all the channels - outside-left, inside-left, central, inside-right and outside-right. The wide forwards can come inside and go outside. One possible pattern is the full-backs can drop into midfield, providing another overload, while the wide forwards stay wide to force the defence to protect 75 yards of width. Or the full-backs can hurtle down the flanks, while the wide forwards head for goal. Crucially though these central midfield overloads repeated time and time again is going to get the likes of Zico, Simonsen and Modric into spaces that can hurt the opposition.

This scheme may be a good illustration of my more general caveats expressed earlier - a false 9 is a #10 a lot of the time, and I guess Zico fits that profile like a glove. When both forwards are wide, stretching the defense - who is actually occupying/threatening the CF space? The CMs will do so at times, but I don't think that's an ideal default solution in terms of positional play.

So that's basically my earlier point: I think another natural final third player would help a lot with the kind of fluidity you describe there. Like Silva combining Iniesta-style with Zico and moving freely between AM/FW positions, or Benzema moving around the last line in typical fashion. That's why I reasoned your wide forwards may have to come inside quite often to provide that kind of presence, they're the only natural options apart from Zico I can see. Hence my impression of a narrow approach (even if unwanted).

Not arguing for sake of it here, it's an honest caveat, and I'll listen to your answer.

Secondly because we have gone all the way through the draft accepting that the majority of players' peaks straddle decades. Can't recall it ever being an issue unless it was (a) clearly a weaker decade for that player, or (b) an inaccurate use of that player (eg using Scholes as a DLP in 95-04). I don't think either are the case here.

Okay, it's good to hear how you approach this draft-specific issue, and I'm fine with agreeing on that.

Was a bit surprised how tense it seemed to get over the Moore issue - I thought that was fair game, as was your reply on Cole. Was also prepared to answer similar questions/doubts on our own players.

But I see where you're coming from, and I'll stick to that from now on.

 

[Jim Beam]

edit; will delate this as I said I won't double down

If we beat Brazil I might explode.. Fly me to the moon ♫♪

 

[Physiocrat]

@Physiocrat Stick this in the OP please.

Done. Also leaving aside the Moore and Cole rating, I still think your relatively narrowness and potentially lack of attack in the CF position against a team with more genuine wide threats makes it is a slight tactical mismatch. This may be worded poorly but I generally agree with Synco's tactical observations.