Decision to not bring in Dean Henderson

[Dominos]

Remember everyone was shitting on Henderson after we had lost to the scums, calling him to be sold to Sheffield United?

On hindsight, it is easy to say that Henderson would have saved us, but we won't know.

And LvG was crazy to do that. He didn't care about Cilessen since it was the World Cup and he was gone soon after, but how damaging it would be between DDG and OGS if he had done that. Imagine your boss telling you that you are not going to the final presentation because of this and that though you have worked hardly preparing for the finals.

People's opinions of Henderson's overall ability to be our number 1 has nothing to do with his penalty saving record vs De Gea's penalty saving record.

It's the last game of the season, by the time the new season comes around, no one would have give a shit about the decision to sub De Gea, it would be old news. It would just be a regular season.

 

[JB7]

Yeah, no. That's not how set-pieces work. You don't just point to where the ball ended up and say "he should have been there the whole time", as if positioning isn't a dynamic thing.

The ball was landing a good 10 yards from the goal, Henderson was not coming out to get that.

He starts on his 6 yard line & the ball lands on Morenos toe 7 yards from goal. It is the goalkeepers ball all day & very few goalkeepers are immediately running backwards from their starting position onto the goal line. It is dreadful goalkeeping and very, very basic. My Sunday league teammates would (rightly) hammer me if I’d done that.

 

[R'hllor]

The only time I've ever seen a keeper subbed on for a penalty shootout was with Krul under LVG for Holland. It's a batshit crazy thing to do

Its not bat shit crazy decision in our case, you probably have higher chance to save a pen than DDG.

 

[Oranges038]

Oh, I guess that makes it right then.

Nevermind great choice from Ole, Schemeichel saved less pens makes sense.

LVG bringing on Krul is the only time I've seen it.

I don't see the difference between taking off AWB for Mata or whoever because they are more likely to score than swapping keepers because they might save more.

It's a discussion I would have had with them both before the game. Simple as this, "if this is going to penalties your coming off and he's going on because he's better at saving them than you". Everybody knows where they stand then.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

It is insane not to do. When he did not do it I had secret hopes that De Gea had trained on pens a lot with some expert to be ready for the final.
Then I watched and he was shit like he normally is on pens.

Henderson is good on pens I think and thus deserved the chance. He would have mentally been much more up for it as well.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

He starts on his 6 yard line & the ball lands on Morenos toe 7 yards from goal. It is the goalkeepers ball all day & very few goalkeepers are immediately running backwards from their starting position onto the goal line. It is dreadful goalkeeping and very, very basic. My Sunday league teammates would (rightly) hammer me if I’d done that.

I’ve watched their goal numerous times, the ball is a good distance from the goal and dipping. I honestly can’t see Henderson getting that, obviously you see it differently. I agree that De Gea is nowhere near what he used to be but I’m not convinced by Henderson at all.

 

[FahadiHossein]

People's opinions of Henderson's overall ability to be our number 1 has nothing to do with his penalty saving record vs De Gea's penalty saving record.

It's the last game of the season, by the time the new season comes around, no one would have give a shit about the decision to sub De Gea, it would be old news. It would just be a regular season.

DDG would have minded the decision that he got the snub.
People's opinions of Henderson are 20/20 in hindsight. Under such circumstance, it would be very damaging to the relationship between DDG and OGS, especially if United wants to keep him. A lot of people said that OGS should be more ruthless, but DDG would quit if he were to receive such a snub. Imagine your manager doing that to you - "I have no faith in you doing that" but you want to prove yourself wrong.
The only way that he could have done is to anticipate first that is to put Henderson back for the Roma back and put DDG back in the PL and let Henderson play in the finals.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

Based on LVG doing it once, people are acting as if it’s the normal thing to do.

 

[spiriticon]

If Ole knew he would never sub off De Gea so as not to hurt his poor feelings, why start him in match where a penalty shootout could decide a trophy?

Secondly, why didn't Ole try harder to win the damn thing in normal/extra time to prevent it going to penalties and save De Gea the embarassment?

Awful.

 

[Nori-]

Up until this game I was still unsure weather moving on De Gea was a good move. I ideally wanted 1 more season of Henderson/De Gea fighting it out.

It might be because I'm still angry with the result tonight but I think it's time we moved on from De Gea. Amazing servant for the club but to be fair he was compensated very nicely for his troubles. Best paid keeper in the world for a while now.

Let's start a new chapter.

 

[JB7]

I’ve watched their goal numerous times, the ball is a good distance from the goal and dipping. I honestly can’t see Henderson getting that, obviously you see it differently. I agree that De Gea is nowhere near what he used to be but I’m not convinced by Henderson at all.

As have I & I've screenshot the starting position & ball landing spot into several of my group chats and when you slow it down it really paints DDG in a terrible light. It’s no exaggeration, the ball literally drops onto his toe 7, 8 yards max from goal.

I agree on Henderson, not convinced but he is the correct option for us at the moment - if for no other reason than the style of goalkeeper he is, the defence are far more at ease with him.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Based on LVG doing it once, people are acting as if it’s the normal thing to do.

Yeah it's just not a done thing at all...

BUT, the fact that we had that extra sub, and the fact that Henderson is decent with pens and DDG obviously isn't makes me not able to just totally dismiss out outright... Despite it not being the done thing.

I wonder if Ole considered it at any point

 

[SAFMUTD]

LVG bringing on Krul is the only time I've seen it.

I don't see the difference between taking off AWB for Mata or whoever because they are more likely to score than swapping keepers because they might save more.

It's a discussion I would have had with them both before the game. Simple as this, "if this is going to penalties your coming off and he's going on because he's better at saving them than you". Everybody knows where they stand then.

I dont know if any other team has a calamity like De Gea when it comes to pens, surely most 1st options keepers are better or at least similar at stoping penalties than the other options they have. Thats why then dont do it as much.

But not with us, we know what we have, we know De Gea sucks at stopping penalties we needed one of the Villarreal players to shoot wide otherwise he wouldnt stop any, saying "no other manager has done it" doesnt make up for it. Its a logical issue. Like having a player that have missed 10 straight penalties and still select him to shoot.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

The only time I've ever seen a keeper subbed on for a penalty shootout was with Krul under LVG for Holland. It's a batshit crazy thing to do

was at wembley watching Bristol Rivers playoff to get promoted to the foot ball league.Darell Clarke brought on a keepe in the last min. Rovers got promoted... this was, I think the season after LVG did it.

 

[sullydnl]

Yeah it's just not a done thing at all...

BUT, the fact that we had that extra sub, and the fact that Henderson is decent with pens and DDG obviously isn't makes me not able to just totally dismiss out outright... Despite it not being the done thing.

I wonder if Ole considered it at any point

"Solskjaer revealed he considered replacing De Gea for the penalty shootout with the Spanish goalkeeper having failed to save the last 35 spot-kicks he has faced, the Europa League final included.

“You go through every scenario,” he said. “It had crossed my mind in the buildup to the game but we were confident in David. Anything can happen in a penalty shootout and I went with the keeper who had played the whole game.”"

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

I dont know if any other team has a calamity like De Gea when it comes to pens, surely most 1st options keepers are better or at least similar at stoping penalties than the other options they have. Thats why then dont do it as much.

But not with us, we know what we have, we know De Gea sucks at stopping penalties we needed one of the Villarreal players to shoot wide otherwise he wouldnt stop any, saying "no other manager has done it" doesnt make up for it. Its a logical issue. Like having a player that have missed 10 straight penalties and still select him to shoot.

I don’t think we should have subbed in Henderson at the last min. The issue is this premise of a cup keeper. Henderson is no 1, whether we agree with that, it doesn’t matter, w4 should play our no 1 in the important matches.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

"Solskjaer revealed he considered replacing De Gea for the penalty shootout with the Spanish goalkeeper having failed to save the last 35 spot-kicks he has faced, the Europa League final included.

“You go through every scenario,” he said. “It had crossed my mind in the buildup to the game but we were confident in David. Anything can happen in a penalty shootout and I went with the keeper who had played the whole game.”"

Interesting, if it crossed his mind then he must accept that DDG is poor on them... And yet still stuck with him.

Though maybe it's just easy to say after I guess, I'm sure if we'd won he'd say the thought never entered his mind!!

Thing is I don't think that's something you can make on the fly... You have Hendo practice pens solidly for days before the final and let both of them know what the drill is.

 

[SAFMUTD]

I don’t think we should have subbed in Henderson at the last min. The issue is this premise of a cup keeper. Henderson is no 1, whether we agree with that, it doesn’t matter, w4 should play our no 1 in the important matches.

We could have, its a fact not an opinion.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

Yeah it's just not a done thing at all...

BUT, the fact that we had that extra sub, and the fact that Henderson is decent with pens and DDG obviously isn't makes me not able to just totally dismiss out outright... Despite it not being the done thing.

I wonder if Ole considered it at any point

It most likely did cross his mind but he didn’t have the stones to do it.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I feel like selecting Phil Jones' to take pens over Bruno is probably statistically a better call than going De Gea over Henderson for pens.

 

[Bullhitter]

how can you seriously believe that Ole doesn’t know the stats on his two keepers

Are you sure? I wouldn't be certain he even knew he could make a 6th sub

 

[SplitzMagic]

When I saw ddg in goal I questioned this but thought I'd look stupid.

Ddg has been off the boil for so long and it was clear today. He didn't seem bothered in the slightest and honestly... I'm glad we lost... In the most hurtful way.... I was so upset.

Now before you slaughter me, firstly we are on UCL... 2nd were in the transition of making deano no1 and 3rdly I feel that if we won today the board would high 5 Ole and sit back for a few seasons.

With this loss, it shows were on track but we definitely need huge reinforcements because I wasn't sure who would come on and make a difference if we made a sub and teams like city and even Chelsea have shown that they have the squad depth.

Our owners aren't bothered as long as we win and increase the share prices so might as well knock this one out, force the board to get the right players in and go hard this August.

Haaland/kane and sancho or haaland/kane raphinha or Lewandowski and sancho/raphinha with a cb of course.

Oh and Tielemans because he looks off this summer and I'd gladly swap VDB for Tielemans this summer!

Let's see what football has in store for us this summer but I honestly think this will be the penultimate transfer window for us because if city get kane... It's actually all over.

He even spoke of De Bruyne a week or so ago being an amazing player/assister so I suppose that tells us all we need to know and think this window.

I'd have hoped we could get kane but honesty I think getting haaland is more beneficial and Sancho but both seems impossible so I'd settle for raphinha instead 100%.

 

[sullydnl]

When I saw ddg in goal I questioned this but thought I'd look stupid.

Ddg has been off the boil for so long and it was clear today. He didn't seem bothered in the slightest and honestly... I'm glad we lost... In the most hurtful way.... I was so upset.

Now before you slaughter me, firstly we are on UCL... 2nd were in the transition of making deano no1 and 3rdly I feel that if we won today the board would high 5 Ole and sit back for a few seasons.

With this loss, it shows were on track but we definitely need huge reinforcements because I wasn't sure who would come on and make a difference if we made a sub and teams like city and even Chelsea have shown that they have the squad depth.

Our owners aren't bothered as long as we win and increase the share prices so might as well knock this one out, force the board to get the right players in and go hard this August.

Haaland/kane and sancho or haaland/kane raphinha or Lewandowski and sancho/raphinha with a cb of course.

Oh and Tielemans because he looks off this summer and I'd gladly swap VDB for Tielemans this summer!

Let's see what football has in store for us this summer but I honestly think this will be the penultimate transfer window for us because if city get kane... It's actually all over.

He even spoke of De Bruyne a week or so ago being an amazing player/assister so I suppose that tells us all we need to know and think this window.

I'd have hoped we could get kane but honesty I think getting haaland is more beneficial and Sancho but both seems impossible so I'd settle for raphinha instead 100%.

And "I'm glad we lost" is where I log out for the night.

 

[MU655]

Two of those in a youth tournament two in the lower leagues. I'm only counting top competitions.

Fair enough. I just picked those stats from what they said on BT. I assumed they would all be professional.

 

[Schneiderman]

interesting. Bruno decided that we take the pens second? That’s a very strange decision I have to say.

Apparently, no idea if it's true myself though. Bring back ABBA!

 

[dave1956]

Just a question to Ole : You bring on outfield players who you consider can perform at taking penalties, so why do you not replace a keeper whose stats show conclusively that he has a poor record at saving penalties.
Just asking for a friend

 

[Eternitiy]

"Solskjaer revealed he considered replacing De Gea for the penalty shootout with the Spanish goalkeeper having failed to save the last 35 spot-kicks he has faced, the Europa League final included.

“You go through every scenario,” he said. “It had crossed my mind in the buildup to the game but we were confident in David. Anything can happen in a penalty shootout and I went with the keeper who had played the whole game.”"

Therein lies the problem.

He's too nice, too timid, he needs to be ruthless and make a decision.

He lets his loyalty to some of these players get in the way of facts.

 

[Stormrage101MUFC]

Our captain opted to go second on penalties, which says it all. Everyone knows that the statistical advantage is to take first.

True. Probably because taking first gives a massive mental edge too - if you score yours the other team HAVE to do the same or they're fecked. Even in tennis, the statistical advantage is to serve 1st in a set. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples. God knows why we chose to take our penalties 2nd.

 

[SplitzMagic]

And "I'm glad we lost" is where I log out for the night.

Did you not see the quality?

Was I glad we lost? No.... But being real and honest. Had we have won, do you think we would get milked by the glazers this summer or funded?

 

[Sir Matt]

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De Gea never even looked close to saving anything. He should've feigned injury and let one of the outfield players have a go. It couldn't have been worse.

 

[Tallis]

I don’t blame OGS for this specific call. Plenty of room for improvement but he did the right thing here.

 

[Giggs86]

Yes lets all blame Ole for keeping our number 1 keeper for a cup final penalties. The fact that he can't save a penalty to save his life indicates that he should've never been our number 1 keeper to begin with.

 

[Sky1981]

Penalties are lotteries. No guarantee Hendo would save one.

where ole failed again was his game management. Lack of subs when required to then make really odd ones too late, leaving Rashford on who was horrific yet again.

we lost it in the second half -well on top but needed fresh legs, failed to act. A safe manager wins nothing.

Not true. Between two equally prepared good teams yes. It could boil down to luck.

But if you're losing 11-10 it's keeper unprepared for penalty shootout.

Top clubs dont leave things to chance, i remember holland had even analyzed last 100s of every opponent shootouts and their tendencies. If you're not good enough to stop it at least make a statistically more likely block.

Every bit helps. Penalty is trainable it's not like you really have no way of practising it

1 v 1 anything can happen. Player lost his marbles, not fast enough, not quick enough, but when it's 5 or more it's about statistic. Players just like any other normal human being have a habit and tendencies you can analyzed. Might not be accurate in single case but against 5 or more played 1 or 2 are bound to match.

Penalty kicks arent 50/50. You know the player is left or right footed so that eliminates one aspect. Then there's tendency, then there's body language. Even if you're totally screwed you can just make an educated guess based on tendencies and just jump ahead and hope for the best.

 

[Sky1981]

The only time I've ever seen a keeper subbed on for a penalty shootout was with Krul under LVG for Holland. It's a batshit crazy thing to do

It's not batshit. The backup keeper is specially drilled for penalty shootout. He had more time to prepare and analyzing things compared to their first keeper. Fresher. And probably spends time training just for the PK instead of diverting his attention with actual match tactics.

Nothing personal. Just pragmatism.

 

[Sky1981]

Remember everyone was shitting on Henderson after we had lost to the scums, calling him to be sold to Sheffield United?

On hindsight, it is easy to say that Henderson would have saved us, but we won't know.

And LvG was crazy to do that. He didn't care about Cilessen since it was the World Cup and he was gone soon after, but how damaging it would be between DDG and OGS if he had done that. Imagine your boss telling you that you are not going to the final presentation because of this and that though you have worked hardly preparing for the finals.

Ok dave. You focus on 120 minutes tactics. We'll grill henderson all session to prepare if we get into PK.

Management 101

If ole knows keeping de gea is bad but do so because he worries about how he'd felt then he's still a bad manager

 

[Johnson Yip]

I don’t think it’s about fear but loyalty and respect, which are big contributors to good camaraderie and a positive environment. Ole has been widely praised as a good man manager, and it’s the thing that he most valued in Sir Alex.

We have two keepers at a similar level. They were told that the one that earns his place in the first team will play the league games, but the backup won’t be pushed to the side, they are too good for that, so they will play the cup games. All of them. If he were to disregard that commitment in the moment, it would be disrespectful to the individual, having lasting effects on their morale, but it would also send a bad signal to the rest of the squad. They wouldn’t trust him.

I don’t think Ole is a good manager but he has the trust of his players. If he threw that away he would be putting short term gain ahead of long term pain. Strategically it doesn’t make sense. It just isn’t as simple as this one moment. That’s why keepers generally aren’t pulled out at the last moment. It would be damaging in the long term.

I believe there is a big difference between "ditching DDG for the starting spot" and "substituting him with Henderson for penalty shootout". Definitely not showing disrespect to Dave if Ole chose Hendo for the shootout given Dave's penalty saving statistics.

 

[manunited1919]

He was bringing on other penalty takers.

The bigger problem is why the feck we can't defend set-pieces, why the feck he doesn't make subs to impact the actual game and why the feck we were forced to a penalty shoot-out at all.

Spot on!

 

[SAFMUTD]

Keeping De Gea in the penalty given his form would be as if we had a penalty taker with 50% accuracy and still we insist he takes one because we don't want to hurt his feelings.

De Gea is shit at stopping penalties it's not secret and there would have been no shame to sub him for Henderson, I mean just look at De Gea's body language he wasn't even close not confident to stop one, Villarreal could have kicked another 11 penalties and still he wouldn't have blocked a single one.

 

[kouroux]

If we'd have brought Henderson on and lost, the inquisition would instead be asking why we didn't keep de Gea on.

Not at all, we know DDG is shite at pens. The attempt to do something about it would have been welcomed

 

[Dargonk]

From an individual game perspective Henderson should have been brought on over DDG for the shoot out. That is a no brainer, as DDG just doesn't save penalties.

Where it gets tricky is doing that without affecting the moral of your keepers and the attitude they have towards the club/manager. If long term DDG is still United's preferred keeper, you potentially don't want to make the sub. Plus as outsiders, we don't know what discussions/promises have been made to each player.

Saying that at the time, I wanted Ole to make the sub.