Declan Rice

bsCallout

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He really isn't.


Still not 100% convinced by Rice but I wouldn't be that surprised if he did prove to be capable of being a regular at a big club.
Intentional hyperbole to match the counter.

But he has no real experience at the top level. Playing for West Ham and playing for England in dead rubbers isnt exactly the experience I'd want in that position.

I think he could probably grow to be that player though as he is young and talented.
 

bsCallout

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It is a actually fair comparison. Dier was actually challenging for the league at the same age with Tottenham, he just fell off a cliff with injuries and form.
Cleverly should be compared to Pogba then. Basically the same player.
 

Judas

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Intentional hyperbole to match the counter.

But he has no real experience at the top level. Playing for West Ham and playing for England in dead rubbers isnt exactly the experience I'd want in that position.

I think he could probably grow to be that player though as he is young and talented.
But some players simple aren't going to get that experience until they make a step up to a bigger club? You have to gamble sometimes. You can't wait till these players are getting all these big experiences because chances are you've missed the window to get him anyway by then.
 

AKDevil

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He holds his position centrally very well, so I think the only way this makes sense is if we intend to play him as a sole #6 and let any two of Pogba/Bruno/VdB/McT push higher as #8s.

In a pivot, I think we'd end up with a lot of the same issues we've seen this season moving the ball through midfield as he's not an amazing passer, and of all our FBs only Shaw contributes significantly in progressing the ball.
think he‘d be good in a midfield two because the roles are defined. He’s there to do the majority of the disciplined defensive work and his partner can go off knowing Rice will always be there.
 

RUCK4444

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Of course, if West Ham are serious about their £100m valuation this is not going to happen and rightly so.

But if the price is £40m + Jesse I think a deal could be done. And it would be a good deal in the long run, he could play for us for 10-12 years, no problem.
Yeah I would be tempted at £40m + Jesse. The latter has been huge for them in their push for European football, we could argue they need Jesse as much as they need Rice.

I'd be cheeky and push them as low as they can go on Rice with Jesse going the other way.
 

sullydnl

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It is a actually fair comparison. Dier was actually challenging for the league at the same age with Tottenham, he just fell off a cliff with injuries and form.
It's an poor comparison because Rice is a much better midfielder than Dier, not least because he actually plays like a midfielder rather than a CB clumping about in midfield. Dier was always awful.
 

GlasgowCeltic

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Probably harsh but Diers always smelt of John oshea to me, just a body used to plug holes in the team to a mediocre standard. Rice looks better than that
 

ivaldo

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I’m not sure if English is your first language but all terms are relative and, if I say he’s tender-aged, it ought to be obvious to you that I’m making the point that, at 22, he is younger than most guys playing at elite level in his position.

You’re absolutely right that experience is more important than age and, guess what, he’ll have a lot more experience when he’s 30 than he has now.

I wasn’t expecting to be in a debate about the definition of the word “tender” but if you prefer I can just say “young”. Please let’s not get in a debate about what “young” means.
No shit sherlock. Zlatan is 39 so I suppose we can call Matic inexperienced too. It's all relative, after all. Or, you know, acknowledge that a player that has already played more club club games than Bailly should be considered as such, and the obvious issues in his game shouldn't be brushed aside as the folly of youth.

Great. Wouldn't that have been easier if we just started there?
 

Floyd

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Yeah I would be tempted at £40m + Jesse. The latter has been huge for them in their push for European football, we could argue they need Jesse as much as they need Rice.

I'd be cheeky and push them as low as they can go on Rice with Jesse going the other way.
You've turned, good man. My work here is done. :D
 

thepolice123

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Yeah I would be tempted at £40m + Jesse. The latter has been huge for them in their push for European football, we could argue they need Jesse as much as they need Rice.

I'd be cheeky and push them as low as they can go on Rice with Jesse going the other way.
Its a nice thought but no way they are going to value Lingard at 60m. Sweet jesus. :lol:
 

justsomebloke

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Intentional hyperbole to match the counter.

But he has no real experience at the top level. Playing for West Ham and playing for England in dead rubbers isnt exactly the experience I'd want in that position.

I think he could probably grow to be that player though as he is young and talented.
I don't think that logic makes any sense. Should we only buy players who've already proven their mettle at another big club? That would not be a sane transfer policy.
 

OrcaFat

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No shit sherlock. Zlatan is 39 so I suppose we can call Matic inexperienced too. It's all relative, after all. Or, you know, acknowledge that a player that has already played more club club games than Bailly should be considered as such, and the obvious issues in his game shouldn't be brushed aside as the folly of youth.

Great. Wouldn't that have been easier if we just started there?
I’m not sure we’ve achieved anything with this but god bless you anyway. Next time I use the word “tender”, you’ll know what I mean, so there’s always that.
 

Sir Marcus

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Intentional hyperbole to match the counter.

But he has no real experience at the top level. Playing for West Ham and playing for England in dead rubbers isnt exactly the experience I'd want in that position.

I think he could probably grow to be that player though as he is young and talented.

Neither does Mark Noble - I suppose he's a novice as well?
 

Bilbo

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Its a nice thought but no way they are going to value Lingard at 60m. Sweet jesus. :lol:
Its not really about what they value Lingard at. It's about the price that we put on him. After all, Rice certainly shouldn't be valued at anything higher than £50m in terms on what he has achieved so far, but West Ham are entitled to ask whatever they like.

If we put ourselves in their shoes, then the thought of not having Jesse next season now looks like a serious downgrade to their first XI. Just as big as if they lost Rice. If there are other interested parties in for Jesse, and there certainly will be, then our bargaining position is very strong and we should be going in with a straight swap opening offer. Not that it will get there, but it will certainly make a deal of Lingard + £20-30m look like a win for both sides.
 

RikRuud

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He's only played 13 games this season, just had surgery for a bizarre injury and is older than Rice. Surely we want players we know can step right in?
I think it was a bit of a freak injury and I think he’s only a year older than rice. I know we were linked with him before his move to Sheffield Utd so there could Still be interest. However i do agree that we need a play to step right in but I just can’t see us paying the price West Ham would demand for Rice.
 

justsomebloke

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Its not really about what they value Lingard at. It's about the price that we put on him. After all, Rice certainly shouldn't be valued at anything higher than £50m in terms on what he has achieved so far, but West Ham are entitled to ask whatever they like.

If we put ourselves in their shoes, then the thought of not having Jesse next season now looks like a serious downgrade to their first XI. Just as big as if they lost Rice. If there are other interested parties in for Jesse, and there certainly will be, then our bargaining position is very strong and we should be going in with a straight swap opening offer. Not that it will get there, but it will certainly make a deal of Lingard + £20-30m look like a win for both sides.
I think that would a highly inadvisable negotiation strategy. These things tend not to go well if one party undercuts his credibility by being blatantly unreasonable. And to propose a straight-up Lingard/Rice swap would be exactly that. Their valuation is simply too vastly different. Its fine that West Ham can put whatever price they want on Rice and we can put whatever price we want on Lingard, but if your object is to get the deal done, then that actually requires both sides to broadly agree on the valuation of both players.
 

thepolice123

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That's not what he said though.
Its not really about what they value Lingard at. It's about the price that we put on him. After all, Rice certainly shouldn't be valued at anything higher than £50m in terms on what he has achieved so far, but West Ham are entitled to ask whatever they like.

If we put ourselves in their shoes, then the thought of not having Jesse next season now looks like a serious downgrade to their first XI. Just as big as if they lost Rice. If there are other interested parties in for Jesse, and there certainly will be, then our bargaining position is very strong and we should be going in with a straight swap opening offer. Not that it will get there, but it will certainly make a deal of Lingard + £20-30m look like a win for both sides.
I interpreted that wrongly. I thought that was if we do accept West Ham's 100m asking price.

I think I can live with that offer but I wouldn't be jumping at the chance. I can see West Ham paying 25-30m for Lingard, that makes it 65m+ of the budget spent on Rice. Do we even have anything left in the bank for other positions after that?
 

ivaldo

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I’m not sure we’ve achieved anything with this but god bless you anyway. Next time I use the word “tender”, you’ll know what I mean, so there’s always that.
I'd prefer if we didn't exaggerate in order to justify a point, but whatever floats your boat!
 

bsCallout

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But some players simple aren't going to get that experience until they make a step up to a bigger club? You have to gamble sometimes. You can't wait till these players are getting all these big experiences because chances are you've missed the window to get him anyway by then.
I know that of course, I think it's just clear he lacks that experience when others are calling him experienced it's limited experience. He has a lot to learn, and we are probably the right club for him to do so.

He has the perfect profile for the sort of player we want and at the right time.

It's a slight gamble and that is why the fee is important.
 

Bilbo

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I think that would a highly inadvisable negotiation strategy. These things tend not to go well if one party undercuts his credibility by being blatantly unreasonable. And to propose a straight-up Lingard/Rice swap would be exactly that. Their valuation is simply too vastly different. Its fine that West Ham can put whatever price they want on Rice and we can put whatever price we want on Lingard, but if your object is to get the deal done, then that actually requires both sides to broadly agree on the valuation of both players.
There's nothing wrong with going in with an initially unrealistic proposal in this case. Lingard has been the most productive player in the entire league since he went there. He is priceless to West Ham right now, and importantly is already a fan favourite. While the fans expect to lose Rice at some stage, they still won't be happy about it, but getting a player with Lingards numbers eases that situation significantly.

That further increases the value of Lingard. What would that player be worth to them if we remove Rice from the equation altogether, or more specifically in this case how much is it worth to them to not lose him? I think we need to go in and sell West Ham hard on the notion that he could easily be kept at United, or go elsewhere, and all of a sudden getting Lingard and having £20-30m to replace Rice is looking better and better for them. Good DMs are far more common, and gettable for them, than a player who is putting up Lingards numbers.

There's zero chance that they lose interest if we come in with a strong position here
 

BFernandes

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Who the hell mentioned Vidal?

A soon to be 34 year old - on big wages with a drink problem.

What could possibly go wrong?
 

Lash

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It's an poor comparison because Rice is a much better midfielder than Dier, not least because he actually plays like a midfielder rather than a CB clumping about in midfield. Dier was always awful.
I think that's unfair on Dier, no way was he awful. Granted he is now, but at 22, he was a serious prospect.
 

OrcaFat

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Kisses and cuddles?
Warm hugs.

I’m ashamed to say I don’t even know whether you are pro or agin our signing this fellow (be he tender pup or wizened dog!); I rather doubt we’ll pay what it’ll take anyway.
 

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Comparing Dier to Rice purely because they're both English, then saying we should sign Vidal in 2021. God bless the Caf.
Well I don´t compare them based on their playstyle but yeah they are both english and overrated, players without real technical ability playing in a similar position for similarly positioned clubs. They are easily comparable.
 

Poborsky's hair

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He's only played 13 games this season, just had surgery for a bizarre injury and is older than Rice. Surely we want players we know can step right in?
He´s not good enough anyway. He needs at least another season where he would step up but with injury problems it owuld take way longer. I trust our scouting network, there´s plenty fish in the sea but only names form the prem being thrown around like it´s the only league we have to buy from. For me loan move for a seasoned player wouldnt be a bad move, until Garner is ready, the rest of the buget has to go on an attacker + CB. ANd the budget will be covid-limited.
 

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Agree with this. Having watched him closely for a few seasons I started off with the same doubts as many in this thread but I'm now convinced he's absolutely class. Positioning is Carrick-like, tackling superb, great touch, can dribble, passing is good, and he's a physical beast too - covers so much ground. **

I'd be all for signing him but not sure if it would be wise to spend the whole budget on him as I think we need other positions more urgently.

** Caveat - I wrote a very similar sentence on here when we were linked with Schneiderlin :nervous:
He’s a much better ball player than Morgan but nearly everyone got swept up in us needing that kind of player. If or when Rice comes in I think he’s far more complete and he’ll be able to get up and down the pitch and join in if there’s nothing going on in midfield. Morgan S was just the definition of a passenger player the middle. We’ve seen it many times. Safe passing side to side and hiding behind the opposition when teammates get on the ball. Rice is already way beyond that. It’s his price though. It’s still too much. At 50 million you’ve got an England international for his best years. Smart to lock it down. At 80/90 million including Jesse you are just getting your pants pulled down again.
 
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Terry Chango

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Your location gives away your bias.

Go on then, is he any better than McTominay? Can he ping balls from deep like Carrick? Is he not as slow as Matic at half his age?

It's not lazy posting, it's an opinion of what I've seen time and time again from him. He tackles well and his distribution is ok-ish but nothing special and he's slow.

If you think that's worth 60-80 million then that's your opinion.

ahhh the location card has been played...smooth

I’ve not said anything about prices in my posts before, simply if the price is right.

I also don’t need to waste my time comparing him to Scott as they are different players as
I’m sure you’ll agree as you’ve watched rice many times so you say right.

finally, I simply called you out as we can all see from one of your earlier posts that in your own words rice’s only strength is his tackling. Thus I came to the conclusion you’ve not actually seen him play as you also say he’s slow.

However as floyd just pointed out you’ve perhaps Changed your tune so at this point I’m none the wiser to what your viewpoint on rice is. Last night you slated him. Today in your own words you don’t actually think he’s that bad.

which one is it:rolleyes:
 

The Irish Connection

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Its not really about what they value Lingard at. It's about the price that we put on him. After all, Rice certainly shouldn't be valued at anything higher than £50m in terms on what he has achieved so far, but West Ham are entitled to ask whatever they like.

If we put ourselves in their shoes, then the thought of not having Jesse next season now looks like a serious downgrade to their first XI. Just as big as if they lost Rice. If there are other interested parties in for Jesse, and there certainly will be, then our bargaining position is very strong and we should be going in with a straight swap opening offer. Not that it will get there, but it will certainly make a deal of Lingard + £20-30m look like a win for both sides.
Yes, that’s more what I was thinking too. Lingard plus 20m or piss off.
 

SATA

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If we are going to sign Rice, i don’t think we will need to sign a CB as he can equally cover good in that position as well. Perhaps that’s the thinking from the club and we can also use Jesse in the deal. Then use the rest of the budget on Sancho and we should be grand