Declan Rice

justsomebloke

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Thats the whole thing though. Why should Rice be considered so much more valuable? He looks like a decent player but he hasn't convinced everyone. Far from it. He isn't my choice for our summer business.

You say you can't fabricate leverage by overvaluing an asset, but that's exactly what West Ham have done here. They say 'we want £100m' and the fans automatically think 'we'll get him for £65-70m - great deal for us' when in reality he's done nothing to justify anything over £50m at most. West Ham are setting their market by overvaluing their asset, in the same way that United would be overvaluing Jesse by offering a straight swap.

I think some here are underestimating our leverage because of the way we've thought about Jesse as a United player. Let's be clear here - he is ripping this league apart at the moment and has revitalised West Ham in a way no other player has done since Payet. They'll be desperate to keep him
What West Ham is doing there isn't giving themselves leverage - rather, it is to put down a marker that says they don't want to sell Rice, and will only consider doing so if someone is prepared to greatly overpay for him. Like Dortmund did with Sancho last summer. The result of that is to reduce the likelihood of a bid being made, and of Rice being sold.

Our position with Lingard is the exact opposite of this: We WANT to sell Lingard. Obviously, we'd like as much money for him as possible, but it would be very foolish indeed to start off with a position that tells everyone they'll only get him if they hugely overpay. It lacks credibility, or worse, would be taken as an indication that we're not really interested in selling him.

An initial asking price of maybe 30-35 million would be a reasonable way of exploiting the leverage his performance has given us. An asking price of at least 50-60 million, which is what a swap for Rice would amount to, is not.

And, it doesn't matter what you or I think Rice is worth. What matters is what interested clubs think Rice is worth. Which I'm pretty sure is a good deal more than anyone thinks Jesse Lingard is worth.
 

Hammondo

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What West Ham is doing there isn't giving themselves leverage - rather, it is to put down a marker that says they don't want to sell Rice, and will only consider doing so if someone is prepared to greatly overpay for him. Like Dortmund did with Sancho last summer. The result of that is to reduce the likelihood of a bid being made, and of Rice being sold.

Our position with Lingard is the exact opposite of this: We WANT to sell Lingard. Obviously, we'd like as much money for him as possible, but it would be very foolish indeed to start off with a position that tells everyone they'll only get him if they hugely overpay. It lacks credibility, or worse, would be taken as an indication that we're not really interested in selling him.

An initial asking price of maybe 30-35 million would be a reasonable way of exploiting the leverage his performance has given us. An asking price of at least 50-60 million, which is what a swap for Rice would amount to, is not.

And, it doesn't matter what you or I think Rice is worth. What matters is what interested clubs think Rice is worth. Which I'm pretty sure is a good deal more than anyone thinks Jesse Lingard is worth.
It's not that simple. You are talking as if demand is the only factor. There are other DMs, other alternatives that Rice is against in the market. Teams can just go elsewhere and they probably will at those prices.
 

justsomebloke

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It's not that simple. You are talking as if demand is the only factor. There are other DMs, other alternatives that Rice is against in the market. Teams can just go elsewhere and they probably will at those prices.
My point is that it isn't smart to overprice Lingard, if we want to sell him. And that we don't give ourselves "leverage" by setting an asking price no one takes seriously. Also, that the price tag West Ham has put on Rice shows that they would be very happy if other teams go elsewhere, and leave Rice alone.

United needs to attract and maximise interest in Lingard, West Ham, by all appearances, tries to deter interest in Rice. Their absurd overpricing is an excellent way to achieve their aim, but would a completely useless and counterproductive way to achieve ours.
 
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Hammondo

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My point is that it isn't smart to overprice Lingard, if we want to sell him. And that we don't give ourselves "leverage" by setting an asking price no one takes seriously. Also, that the price tag West Ham has put on Rice shows that they would be very happy if other teams go elsewhere, and leave Rice alone.

United needs to attract and maximise interest in Lingard, West Ham, by all appearances, tries to deter interest in Rice. Their absurd overpricing is an excellent way to achieve their aim, but would a completely useless and counterproductive way to achieve ours.
I agree.
 

theklr

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I dont think we are desperate enough for Rice to overpay massivly for him, think it is more a deal of convience (re Lingard swap), that we want to explore abit.

And I think Rice ofcourse would at least be somewhat interested in joining, but this is kinda like Grealish last summer and wont happen.

The question is then if we are going for a DM at all . Think we are more interested in a CB and forward, and only if Pogba goes we will buy a midfielder.
 

justsomebloke

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I dont see Rice anything similar to Carrick.

Rice is more a tackler before aiming to recycle simple possession to better passers in the team.

Carrick was more a deep lying playmaker, a player that eventually needed Hargreaves protection in the CL.

I'm not saying he is anywhere near as good, but Rice reminds me of the player in Fernandinho's role as a City player. He is defensively capable of holding 2 attacking midfielders purely by his positioning and ability to have the opposition look for alternatives than attacking through the centre of the pitch. His passing is good but is simple compared to the rest of the teammates on the pitch. He helps the players in front of him have a freedom to attack whilst giving the defense and extended man positioned slightly further front of them.

It's why in my eyes there is a difference to Bissouma and Ndidi in my opinion because they go around aiming to chase down the ball or make an interception and do so by letting go off their central position.

Do I see Bissouma or Ndidi capable of being the only CDM holding his position in a formation/tactic that holds David Silva and De Bryune?

Maybe, but not as good as Rice in my opinion.

On the opposite end of scale if Chelsea wanted a replacement for Kante (or we wanted an upgrade on Fred) then I dont think Rice would be as good as Bissouma or Ndidi because they have more of that non stop energy type of football when they chase after the attacker and dont give them a chance.
Good points. I'd add that I thought he looked surprisingly good in a No 8 role against Poland. You could envisage him developing into that kind of role too, kind of like a high-grade McTominay.
 

diarm

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West Ham look to be in a strong position with Rice and are saying they don't want to sell. That's all well and good but at the end of the day they, Rice himself and the whole world know that the lad is leaving there sooner or later.

Now they are well within their rights to demand a huge fee, and they might get one. But what isn't guaranteed is that they can then go and spend that money on a player or players who will settle in as well for them as Lingard has.

We have to use that leverage to our advantage this summer. Offer them Jesse + £30m and spell out early that we have no intention of accepting a cash only offer from them at any stage. If they refuse that, start offering Lingard out to other clubs. There is rumoured interest from all over the place so it shouldn't be too difficult to drum up some media interest at least and when the reality sinks in, West Ham will play ball. Especially if as is reported, Rice himself is keen on the move.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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West Ham look to be in a strong position with Rice and are saying they don't want to sell. That's all well and good but at the end of the day they, Rice himself and the whole world know that the lad is leaving there sooner or later.

Now they are well within their rights to demand a huge fee, and they might get one. But what isn't guaranteed is that they can then go and spend that money on a player or players who will settle in as well for them as Lingard has.

We have to use that leverage to our advantage this summer. Offer them Jesse + £30m and spell out early that we have no intention of accepting a cash only offer from them at any stage. If they refuse that, start offering Lingard out to other clubs. There is rumoured interest from all over the place so it shouldn't be too difficult to drum up some media interest at least and when the reality sinks in, West Ham will play ball. Especially if as is reported, Rice himself is keen on the move.
I think they will ask 50m or 60m pounds plus Jesse. West Ham has enough power to hold Rice. They had him until 2024 plus 1 year option means they have him until 2025. Failing to sell Rice this year means they still have another 3 years, no bid deal. This is basically Leicester & Maguire all over again.
 

diarm

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I think they will ask 50m or 60m pounds plus Jesse. West Ham has enough power to hold Rice. They had him until 2024 plus 1 year option means they have him until 2025. Failing to sell Rice this year means they still have another 3 years, no bid deal. This is basically Leicester & Maguire all over again.
That's fine so long as Rice is happy to stay there.

Then we sell Lingard elsewhere and they hope that Rice doesn't kick off. Or that when he does and they are forced to sell him, that they can use the money to sign someone who will be half as good as Lingard has been for them.

What we need to move away from is the idea that we're everyones fool and can be bullied in transfer deals. If we don't sign him, there are loads of alternatives available and it will be West Ham who suffer from losing out on Jesse more than we do without Rice.
 

justsomebloke

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That's fine so long as Rice is happy to stay there.

Then we sell Lingard elsewhere and they hope that Rice doesn't kick off. Or that when he does and they are forced to sell him, that they can use the money to sign someone who will be half as good as Lingard has been for them.

What we need to move away from is the idea that we're everyones fool and can be bullied in transfer deals. If we don't sign him, there are loads of alternatives available and it will be West Ham who suffer from losing out on Jesse more than we do without Rice.
Why on earth should we not sell Lingard to West Ham just because they don't sell Rice to us? That makes zero sense. If some other club outbids West Ham for Lingard, then they get him. If not, he goes to West Ham as long as the price is satisfactory. End of story.
 

diarm

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Why on earth should we not sell Lingard to West Ham just because they don't sell Rice to us? That makes zero sense. If some other club outbids West Ham for Lingard, then they get him. If not, he goes to West Ham as long as the price is satisfactory. End of story.
Because it makes good business sense. If we're keen on Rice it is good leverage to get a reasonable deal done.

West Ham will act like Billy Big Balls this summer and demand a stupid price for their player, while at the same time expecting us to sell ours for peanuts, just like every club seems to have done for the last decade.

If we're not after Rice then fine, forget about it and sell him if the price is right. But if West Ham turn down a reasonable bid for their player and then we accept £20mil for Lingard from them I will be pissed off.

Obviously if other clubs drive the price up and West Ham keep raising to match it, that's fine too because it will end in the same result. Just not on the cheap when that never works out for us the other way. I'd prefer to bring him back than see that.
 

Abraxas

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Selling Lingard is really a seperate issue, though. In theory it could be a part of this deal if everything lined up, but in practice these kinds of deals are very rare. If we want to sell Lingard and West Ham are offering the best price because they know he fits their system then there is no doubt that we should sell, it does not matter at all whether West Ham accept a potential bid for Rice. It is about achieving our aims in the transfer market, not involving our egos and trying to throw our weight around. Selling Lingard may bring in needed funds to pursue other targets, especially given the funds are likely to be fairly modest this summer. We would only be hindering ourselves if we make Lingard's sale contingent on a deal for Rice.
 

tugger

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I can’t think of a single player named after a food stuff that had a good career here. Jaap Spam, Nduja Vidic, Bio Ferdinand, Ryan Greggs. All flops. No thanks.
 

justsomebloke

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Because it makes good business sense. If we're keen on Rice it is good leverage to get a reasonable deal done.

West Ham will act like Billy Big Balls this summer and demand a stupid price for their player, while at the same time expecting us to sell ours for peanuts, just like every club seems to have done for the last decade.

If we're not after Rice then fine, forget about it and sell him if the price is right. But if West Ham turn down a reasonable bid for their player and then we accept £20mil for Lingard from them I will be pissed off.

Obviously if other clubs drive the price up and West Ham keep raising to match it, that's fine too because it will end in the same result. Just not on the cheap when that never works out for us the other way. I'd prefer to bring him back than see that.
What would piss me off is if when next season begins, he's somehow still in our squad, with an expiring contract, no playing time and visibly discontented.
 

theklr

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What would piss me off is if when next season begins, he's somehow still in our squad, with an expiring contract, no playing time and visibly discontented.
Cant remember who it was, but a reliable souce said Lingard would sign a new contract with us to increase/protect his value.

We havent had the best of luck with those previously though.

:drool:
 

croadyman

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Jesse is in the best form of his career right now and we still have holes in the first XI, therefore we should sell while his price is at it's highest and put it towards sorting out CB, CDM & RW/ST
 

Lash

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I think they will ask 50m or 60m pounds plus Jesse. West Ham has enough power to hold Rice. They had him until 2024 plus 1 year option means they have him until 2025. Failing to sell Rice this year means they still have another 3 years, no bid deal. This is basically Leicester & Maguire all over again.
Slightly different though no? We own a player that's currently one of their best players, there's no doubt they would want him back. It's hardly like Rice is our number one target either, so I feel like it's not really a good comparison of situations.
 

theklr

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Dunno why everyone is using the Maguire/Leicester thing as such a big negative . Yes, we overpaid, but he has been immense for us. PL proven is a very real thing and an advantage to not wait a year until they work effectivly.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Dunno why everyone is using the Maguire/Leicester thing as such a big negative . Yes, we overpaid, but he has been immense for us. PL proven is a very real thing and an advantage to not wait a year until they work effectivly.
Nothing negative. The point is that in order for Rice to leave West Ham, clubs will need to pay big just like Maguire because just like Maguire, Rice is on long term contract. So just like Leicester, West Ham is not in hurry to sell. It won't be 30m plus Lingard. It won't be 40m plus Lingard. It will be like 60m plus Lingard more or less. Meaning, you expect in range of 70m-90m.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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Does the club even see DM as a priority? Bit concerning the only DM we are linked with is the one we'd obviously be priced out of a move for.
 

theklr

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Does the club even see DM as a priority? Bit concerning the only DM we are linked with is the one we'd obviously be priced out of a move for.
Think its CB and a Forward (rw or st) thats the priority, but if there are any outs in midfield (lingard/pogba) they might look at it
 

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Because it makes good business sense. If we're keen on Rice it is good leverage to get a reasonable deal done.

West Ham will act like Billy Big Balls this summer and demand a stupid price for their player, while at the same time expecting us to sell ours for peanuts, just like every club seems to have done for the last decade.

If we're not after Rice then fine, forget about it and sell him if the price is right. But if West Ham turn down a reasonable bid for their player and then we accept £20mil for Lingard from them I will be pissed off.

Obviously if other clubs drive the price up and West Ham keep raising to match it, that's fine too because it will end in the same result. Just not on the cheap when that never works out for us the other way. I'd prefer to bring him back than see that.
It feels like you haven't done any sizeable trade. That's not good business sense. At all. Business demands profits. Selling your asset to the highest bidder (unless that bidder is also a direct competitor) is what, theoretically, brings highest profits. What you're saying is dick-measuring culture which is never good business sense.
 

AneRu

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Yep I agree. I’d rather we pick up the next Rice, Kante or Ndidi for 30-40 mil instead.
This is what makes the most financial sense provided our scouting is now sorted and can bring the required player for much less. On the other hand, looking at the careers Carrick, Rooney, Rio and more recently Shaw and Maguire have had here you can hardly go wrong with paying top dollar for PL proven talent as they tend to settle and provide the much needed stability that allows a manager to build around them.

The potential for Rice making the step up and giving us ten solid seasons without ever getting itchy feet, homesick or dream of playing in Spain or Italy. If you have five English/British born players, provided they are talented, it becomes easier to build a dynasty.
 

theklr

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Has he been that good for Arsenal? I know the manager is not great but I hardly hear his name spoken about since joining the PL.
Hard to make an impression in such an unstable team... think he would be good , but not great for us
 

Crashoutcassius

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Dunno why everyone is using the Maguire/Leicester thing as such a big negative . Yes, we overpaid, but he has been immense for us. PL proven is a very real thing and an advantage to not wait a year until they work effectivly.
Absolutely. If you could say rice would be as good as Maguire, 80m is fine
 

Abraxas

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What would he give us that McTominay does not? This is something I have been pondering recently since the links have become more frequent. I'm not really coming up with anything convincing, certainly not much that justifies the outlay. There's a massive disconnect between how players at these kinds of clubs are perceived compared to Man Utd players. We saw it with Maguire, he was considered fantastic and a no brainer signing, but since he joined us the scrutiny is different.

This is expected of course, but the danger is one of exaggerating how good somebody like this is. Everything I see about Rice and this seems to be backed up by the games I've seen is surrounding his physicality, tidy passing, ability to hold the fort in midfield. Admirable qualities but what is there to suggest he takes us up a level in midfield in any way, shape or form? Maybe he adds some additional solidity but what about his passing ability, is it really going to add much? We criticise our players build up at times, maybe quite rightly, but what is the expectation of Rice in addressing this and is it realistic?
 

sherrinford

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What would he give us that McTominay does not? This is something I have been pondering recently since the links have become more frequent. I'm not really coming up with anything convincing, certainly not much that justifies the outlay. There's a massive disconnect between how players at these kinds of clubs are perceived compared to Man Utd players. We saw it with Maguire, he was considered fantastic and a no brainer signing, but since he joined us the scrutiny is different.

This is expected of course, but the danger is one of exaggerating how good somebody like this is. Everything I see about Rice and this seems to be backed up by the games I've seen is surrounding his physicality, tidy passing, ability to hold the fort in midfield. Admirable qualities but what is there to suggest he takes us up a level in midfield in any way, shape or form? Maybe he adds some additional solidity but what about his passing ability, is it really going to add much? We criticise our players build up at times, maybe quite rightly, but what is the expectation of Rice in addressing this and is it realistic?
Rice can actually function as a holding player, McTominay doesn't. Whenever Pogba has been paired with Scott, Pogba has generally maintained the deeper position and McTominay has looked more willing and able to 'go'.

We do not currently have a particularly suitable player for an anchoring role in midfield which would allow one of Pogba or Van de Beek to be utilised as a no.8 alongside him or in conjunction with Fernandes ahead of him, and so that is how I see the addition of Rice enhancing the midfield.
 

Abraxas

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Rice can actually function as a holding player, McTominay doesn't. Whenever Pogba has been paired with Scott, Pogba has generally maintained the deeper position and McTominay has looked more willing and able to 'go'.

We do not currently have a particularly suitable player for an anchoring role in midfield which would allow one of Pogba or Van de Beek to be utilised as a no.8 alongside him or in conjunction with Fernandes ahead of him, and so that is how I see the addition of Rice enhancing the midfield.
He does play with Soucek and Phillips for England, though. They are fairly robust players that are probably more disciplined than Pogba and certainly VDB who seems quite light at the moment. I don't think it's that obvious that he could hold a midfield together with those two alongside him in a setup that's more attacking than either of those that he's performed in. Maybe, but just because he's nominally considered to be a holding player doesn't automatically suggest he could, maybe he'd have the same issues that McTominay does. I get the point that perhaps he's more disciplined than McTominay with better awareness, possibly. That would have to be the logic because it's not that obvious to me he's a better overall player. That's quite a big job at a club like ours.

I also think the idea it might allow VDB to play as an 8 is quite optimistic. I wouldn't suggest we have to give up on VDB but it's more the case that he has to show something. At the moment we have to complement Fred, McT and Pogba - if he stays. If he doesn't stay a signing like Rice would be extremely dubious because where is our passing ability and quality coming from with those options? Which gets back to one of my main issues with Rice, how good is this guy on the ball really if our next step is challenging City and getting further in the CL? I'm not saying I have the all the answers, but from what I've seen its a question mark.
 

CM10

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My point is that it isn't smart to overprice Lingard, if we want to sell him. And that we don't give ourselves "leverage" by setting an asking price no one takes seriously. Also, that the price tag West Ham has put on Rice shows that they would be very happy if other teams go elsewhere, and leave Rice alone.

United needs to attract and maximise interest in Lingard, West Ham, by all appearances, tries to deter interest in Rice. Their absurd overpricing is an excellent way to achieve their aim, but would a completely useless and counterproductive way to achieve ours.
I don't see why we shouldn't, really. Every team we buy from hikes up the prices when United come sniffing so it's only fair we do the same when we have a player in demand.

Lingard has more potential suitors than just West Ham, too. We shouldn't pigeonhole ourselves into thinking his only option is as makeweight for Rice in a swap deal.

The other consideration is that big money for a player like Rice doesn't necessarily go that far - how many times have we seen teams reinvest money from a big transfer poorly? West Ham have bought over 50 strikers in since Gold and Sullivan took over so a player who scores goals like Lingard has is invaluable to them.
 

golden_blunder

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I don't see why we shouldn't, really. Every team we buy from hikes up the prices when United come sniffing so it's only fair we do the same when we have a player in demand.

Lingard has more potential suitors than just West Ham, too. We shouldn't pigeonhole ourselves into thinking his only option is as makeweight for Rice in a swap deal.

The other consideration is that big money for a player like Rice doesn't necessarily go that far - how many times have we seen teams reinvest money from a big transfer poorly? West Ham have bought over 50 strikers in since Gold and Sullivan took over so a player who scores goals like Lingard has is invaluable to them.
The point I was making badly in another post.

though just to throw something out there as well, didn’t noble say he’d retire next summer? Makes it harder to sign rice then
 

flappyjay

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If he doesn't stay a signing like Rice would be extremely dubious because where is our passing ability and quality coming from with those options?
If you look at our last great squad even our least best passers are leagues better than mcfred at that aspect. I grew up thinking all midfielders are supposed to be good at passing because of Scholes and Carrick. The ones that were not as good as them Ando and Fletcher were not giving the ball away every 2 minutes. The problem with McFred for me its not the defensive aspect but their passing ability. If we bring Rice who is not good at neither then we will most likely get minimal improvement.