Declan Rice

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West Ham aren't getting 70m for Rice let alone 70m + Lingard from Us that's just not happening . Unlike many here I believe he is good enough for us Currently and potential to get even better.

But anything beyond 50 m even that's on the expensive side we should walk away considering Lingard's form for them Him and additional 30-35m Should be our best offer.
They won't sell for less either, so he stays and we move on.

West Ham will have Europa league next year at least so he'll probably be happy to stay for the experience.
 

Nou_Camp99

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Everyone on these types of threads over rates players playing at lesser PL clubs and thinks that if they come to us they will be world beaters. How often does that actually happen though? More often than not these players are just bang average. Remember people telling me how good Morgan Schneiderlin would be playing with better players. He was awful for us.

Declan Rice is a decent player. However anyone expecting a noticeable difference from Fred n Mctomminay will be disappointed. He's not worth spending the vast majority of our limited budget on. He's not world class or anywhere near. If we want to improve on what we have and spend big money then go and buy the very best or don't bother. Why spend mega money on so so players?
 

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The question you need to ask is, will rice be good value at £70m+ for a squad player?

For me he's not much better if at all than the options we currently have, so for the money i'd rather we looked elsewhere.

For instance

Aurélien Tchouaméni from Monaco


He's rice without the price.
How much do you think this kid would cost? Monaco aren't some cheap sellers as far as I remember.
 

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Everyone on these types of threads over rates players playing at lesser PL clubs and thinks that if they come to us they will be world beaters. How often does that actually happen though? More often than not these players are just bang average. Remember people telling me how good Morgan Schneiderlin would be playing with better players. He was awful for us.

Declan Rice is a decent player. However anyone expecting a noticeable difference from Fred n Mctomminay will be disappointed. He's not worth spending the vast majority of our limited budget on. He's not world class or anywhere near. If we want to improve on what we have and spend big money then go and buy the very best or don't bother. Why spend mega money on so so players?
I also remember how everyone was gloating about Lindelof and Bailly while Leicester bought Maguire for 16m pounds. There is no rule in general, Rice would be a very good addition albeit too expensive imo, he is much better than what we currently have.
 

Nou_Camp99

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I also remember how everyone was gloating about Lindelof and Bailly while Leicester bought Maguire for 16m pounds. There is no rule in general, Rice would be a very good addition albeit too expensive imo, he is much better than what we currently have.
But statistically he's not 'much better than what we have' at all. Not much to split between him and Fred n Mctomminay. And let's not forget that Scotty has scored 7 goals for us this season despite playing from deep. Rice has just the one goal. Granted goals aren't the be all and end all from DM's but you can't overstate the importance of goals from midfield either.

If we spend 70m+ on Rice then Westham are the real winners. In fact even if we spend 40 or 50m plus Lingard they are.
 

Floyd

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But statistically he's not 'much better than what we have' at all. Not much to split between him and Fred n Mctomminay. And let's not forget that Scotty has scored 7 goals for us this season despite playing from deep. Rice has just the one goal. Granted goals aren't the be all and end all from DM's but you can't overstate the importance of goals from midfield either.

If we spend 70m+ on Rice then Westham are the real winners. In fact even if we spend 40 or 50m plus Lingard they are.
£40m plus Lingard would be a good deal for us. Our DM sorted for ten years.
 

Don't Kill Bill

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We won’t spend that much though because we have lingard. It’ll be lingard plus 45-50m, possibly in installments. I’d take it too
Would you take that deal over Bissuoma for Lingard and 15 million though.

I think Rice is a great player but I don't think playing along side McT or Fred he is giving us the improvement we need in midfield.

If we buy him we will certainly be physically imposing in midfield though so there is that at least.
 

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The problem I see with Rice - as long as we also have McTominay is that he is much better without the ball than with it. There are few better at pressing the opponent than Rice - he almost reminds me of Hargreaves when he was at his best. He was so quick at getting close to the opponent - probably the best England have had over the last 20 years.

So we could end up with 2 midfielders who are better at destroying for the opposition than creating .
 

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Everyone on these types of threads over rates players playing at lesser PL clubs and thinks that if they come to us they will be world beaters. How often does that actually happen though? More often than not these players are just bang average. Remember people telling me how good Morgan Schneiderlin would be playing with better players. He was awful for us.

Declan Rice is a decent player. However anyone expecting a noticeable difference from Fred n Mctomminay will be disappointed. He's not worth spending the vast majority of our limited budget on. He's not world class or anywhere near. If we want to improve on what we have and spend big money then go and buy the very best or don't bother. Why spend mega money on so so players?
Yeah. The step up is hard.
 

SamoyedSam

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Rice is an England regular. I'd expect him to go for more than Wan-Bissaka, despite the Covid discount. £40m + Lingard would be a good deal.

There's always a risk bringing in young, foreign players with no Premier League experience. Rice potentially plays in the United midfield for a decade and slots straight in.
 

Nou_Camp99

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£40m plus Lingard would be a good deal for us. Our DM sorted for ten years.
Depends on what you value Jesse at. Also that part of our DM being sorted for 10 years is highly questionable and it only an opinion. Declan Rice has never played a second of European football yet so lets hold back on the hype just a tad. Hahahahaha
 

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Would you take that deal over Bissuoma for Lingard and 15 million though.

I think Rice is a great player but I don't think playing along side McT or Fred he is giving us the improvement we need in midfield.

If we buy him we will certainly be physically imposing in midfield though so there is that at least.
Yes, we don’t know whether the Brighton boy is capable of sitting. Every time I watch he’s all over the place tackling everything. Which is fine if that’s what you want
I’d argue we need discipline which rice offers. He sits and does what he’s told

also let’s be real here lingard isn’t going to Brighton, you can’t force a player
 
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Bebestation

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Yes, we don’t know whether the Brighton boy is capable of sitting. Every time I watch he’s all over the place tackling everything. Which is fine if that’s what you want
I’d argue we need discipline which rice offers. He sits and does what he’s told
This is the difference between Rice and the other CDMs we have been linked with/wanted by fans.
 

Drizzle

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This is the difference between Rice and the other CDMs we have been linked with/wanted by fans.
Exactly. Rice is so calm, organised and tactically disciplined. A lot of it is intangible, he's not a showy player, but the kind of player that raises the level of the team around him. He'd make a big difference at United.
 
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UNITED ACADEMY

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Yes, we don’t know whether the Brighton boy is capable of sitting. Every time I watch he’s all over the place tackling everything. Which is fine if that’s what you want
I’d argue we need discipline which rice offers. He sits and does what he’s told

also let’s be real here lingard isn’t going to Brighton, you can’t force a player
Yeah, I'm also curious why people keep saying DM and Holding midfielder and those same people mentioned get Bissouma. Everytime I watched Bissouma, he looks like box to box to me. More of a Partey type of box to box.

A good theory is that Liverpool wants him not to replace their DM/Holding midfielder Fabinho. Pretty obvious they want to replace Wijnaldum or Henderson with him.
 

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I also remember how everyone was gloating about Lindelof and Bailly while Leicester bought Maguire for 16m pounds. There is no rule in general, Rice would be a very good addition albeit too expensive imo, he is much better than what we currently have.
This, this and this. Each individual transfer is unique but in the PL players with PL experience generally do well when they move to a bigger club.
 

Marwood

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I do think Rice is quite a good passer of the ball, maybe better than McTominay and Fred, but that doesn't mean he's the best option out there. He's still quite a safe passer, I don't think he's going to be one to cut through opposition midfields with a great touch and weight of pass. He mostly seems to be about retaining possession quite safely.

But then again maybe we're looking at it too simplistically. Having real athletes who are tidy enough could be one avenue to success. Liverpool have shown recently it isn't necessarily always about having technical maestros in there if the other parts of the team are very productive. It depends how it fits together as part of the whole. Maybe something like Rice and Pogba/McT is the type of physically dominant midfield that fits into this habit we have of grinding teams down and showing our power over the full 90.
I'd say that's the job of a DM, even if they're capable of more.

Nobody passes it more than City but Rodri isn't out there hitting 40 yard passes to the centre forwards. He keeps it real simple.

Carrick is being rewritten to me. I liked him but he was similar to Rodri, most of the time he just kept it ticking over.

Rice would be great IMO as long as we compliment him properly. Which is the basic rule of all team building.
 

Floyd

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I'd say that's the job of a DM, even if they're capable of more.

Nobody passes it more than City but Rodri isn't out there hitting 40 yard passes to the centre forwards. He keeps it real simple.

Carrick is being rewritten to me. I liked him but he was similar to Rodri, most of the time he just kept it ticking over.

Rice would be great IMO as long as we compliment him properly. Which is the basic rule of all team building.
Wow. Carrick was exceptional at passing the ball forward, threading the needle, crisp as you like.
 

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Yes, we don’t know whether the Brighton boy is capable of sitting. Every time I watch he’s all over the place tackling everything. Which is fine if that’s what you want
I’d argue we need discipline which rice offers. He sits and does what he’s told

also let’s be real here lingard isn’t going to Brighton, you can’t force a player
Bissouma and Rice are very different players, Bissouma is box to box. He's got a good tackle on him but doesn't necessarily have the organisational/positioning intelligence to be a proper DM though there's nothing to say he wont develop this, he's certainly improved it this season for us. But buying him would give you another Fred style player industrious, good tackler, short passer, but safe in possession, very occasional goal!

Rice is without doubt a DM with lots of potential, I hope for England's sake he lives upto it, but he's your Matic replacement not Bissouma.

As for Jesse coming to Brighton, you never know! He loved it here before when he came on loan in 13/14!
 

jderbyshire

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I'd say that's the job of a DM, even if they're capable of more.

Nobody passes it more than City but Rodri isn't out there hitting 40 yard passes to the centre forwards. He keeps it real simple.

Carrick is being rewritten to me. I liked him but he was similar to Rodri, most of the time he just kept it ticking over.

Rice would be great IMO as long as we compliment him properly. Which is the basic rule of all team building.
Yeah I've been noticing this for a while on here.

10-15 years ago he used to get shat on by fans. People used to call him "Passback Carrick".

Recently, there's this image of him being created of like a killer pass merchant, when he generally wasn't that player.
 

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Yeah I've been noticing this for a while on here.

10-15 years ago he used to get shat on by fans. People used to call him "Passback Carrick".

Recently, there's this image of him being created of like a killer pass merchant, when he generally wasn't that player.
Pretty sure this never happened. Carrick was a bit iffy early in his united career but was pretty much class for the rest of it.
 

golden_blunder

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Bissouma and Rice are very different players, Bissouma is box to box. He's got a good tackle on him but doesn't necessarily have the organisational/positioning intelligence to be a proper DM though there's nothing to say he wont develop this, he's certainly improved it this season for us. But buying him would give you another Fred style player industrious, good tackler, short passer, but safe in possession, very occasional goal!

Rice is without doubt a DM with lots of potential, I hope for England's sake he lives upto it, but he's your Matic replacement not Bissouma.

As for Jesse coming to Brighton, you never know! He loved it here before when he came on loan in 13/14!
I’d forgotten about that!

in regards to Bissouma v Rice they are 2 different types of player, I don’t know why posters keep bringing this up. We already have Fred and McTom for this type of box to box
 

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I think rice is decent but i genuinely think if you take away the english and premier league premiums there are just as good players abroad for about a 3rd to half of what he would cost. You can almost see us paying 60m quid for him and west ham then signing someone for 20m who does exactly the same thing for them
 

Floyd

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We are in more need of a DM with positional intelligence than a player running around aimlessly tackling everything in sight. We have enough of those in Fred and McT, except they're more "triers", they don't really succeed.

There was a quote about Scott Parker which I find suiting. I can't remember the exact wording but the jist is something like this: He might look impressive what with all the running, but he's actually running just to be where he should've been to secs ago.

Rice seems very mature for his age, he's the type of player we need in that position.
 

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How much is Lingard worth to them at his current level and can they afford to let him go?
 

Jezpeza

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We are in more need of a DM with positional intelligence than a player running around aimlessly tackling everything in sight. We have enough of those in Fred and McT, except they're more "triers", they don't really succeed.

There was a quote about Scott Parker which I find suiting. I can't remember the exact wording but the jist is something like this: He might look impressive what with all the running, but he's actually running just to be where he should've been to secs ago.

Rice seems very mature for his age, he's the type of player we need in that position.
its a good point but some of that could apply to matic, who is essentialy like an immobile cone that the opposition need to pass or dribble round. I think we Need someone who can do all the dirty work, is mobile if they need to be, good positioning and a good passer for that postion
 

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Didnt we play some top/mid table teams then?
The only teams we faced in the top half of the table were Sheffield United and Leicester, both of whom were struggling quite a bit after lockdown. Otherwise they were teams in the relegation zone or just above, perhaps with the exception of Southampton who were 12th at the time. Basically not a single team in good form.

In saying that, Ole did seem to have that as his preferred team at the time so I expect we would have played Matic-Pogba against better teams as well. Big question marks over whether it would have worked though.
 

Floyd

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Yeah I've been noticing this for a while on here.

10-15 years ago he used to get shat on by fans. People used to call him "Passback Carrick".

Recently, there's this image of him being created of like a killer pass merchant, when he generally wasn't that player.
Passback Carrick? I can't imagine any sane United supporter calling him that.

You really should read these two links to educate yourself about "Passback Carrick".

https://redmancunian.com/2013/04/19/michael-carrick-the-best-forward-passer-in-europe/

https://footballunitedblogs.wordpress.com/2011/02/27/the-undue-criticism-of-michael-carrick/
 

Floyd

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its a good point but some of that could apply to matic, who is essentialy like an immobile cone that the opposition need to pass or dribble round. I think we Need someone who can do all the dirty work, is mobile if they need to be, good positioning and a good passer for that postion
Rice, Rice and Rice. And noodles.
 

Jezpeza

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Rice, Rice and Rice. And noodles.
dont watch loads of west ham so dont know how much he ticks all boxes. My sticking point is his price, there will be a premium for an english premier lague player who is proven. Cant abide fred much longer, that i do know. Its great to hastle and harry and win the ball back but he then nullifies himself by kicking the ball out of play, playing a stupid easily intercepted pass or passing straight to the opposition 25 times a game
 

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£40m plus Lingard would be a good deal for us. Our DM sorted for ten years.
No way. Lingard is clearly West Han best player this season, if they want Lingard it’s direct swap with Rice or no deal.

Lingard:
- 9 goals 3 assists in 11 games
- avg rating 7.46
- 2 motm

Rice:
- 1 goals 1 assists in 32 games
- avg rating 7.02
- 1 motm
 
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Floyd

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dont watch loads of west ham so dont know how much he ticks all boxes. My sticking point is his price, there will be a premium for an english premier lague player who is proven. Cant abide fred much longer, that i do know. Its great to hastle and harry and win the ball back but he then nullifies himself by kicking the ball out of play, playing a stupid easily intercepted pass or passing straight to the opposition 25 times a game
Ah the price, that old chestnut. He'd be expensive, probably way more than his actual worth. If not for Lingard I could not see this happening at all this summer, now there's a chance.



Unless we decide to push the boat far out for Kane. Which would be more of a game changer for us.
 

Floyd

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No way. Lingard is clearly West Han best player this season, if they want Lingard it’s direct swap with Rice or no deal.

Lingard:
- 9 goals 3 assists in 11 games
- avg rating 7.46
- 2 motm

Rice:
- 1 goals 1 assists in 32 games
- avg rating 7.02
- 1 motm
That's ridiculous in the extreme.

Lingard is 28, has 1 year left of his contract.

Rice is 22, 4 years left of his contract.

And why are we comparing goals/assists stats for a no 10 vs a no 6?

A direct swap is never going to happen and rightly so.
 

golden_blunder

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its a good point but some of that could apply to matic, who is essentialy like an immobile cone that the opposition need to pass or dribble round. I think we Need someone who can do all the dirty work, is mobile if they need to be, good positioning and a good passer for that postion
So rice then
 

Jezpeza

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So rice then
if he does all that then maybe. But i dont think ‘positioning’ is worth anything if you take 15 seconds to turn or you cant get out to the wing.
I’m also convinced theres players abroad who are a third of the price.
But if money was no object(certainly will be this summer) then yeah, Rice is proven premier league
 

Marwood

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Wow. Carrick was exceptional at passing the ball forward, threading the needle, crisp as you like.
I know what you mean, he was capable of being an exceptional forward passer and certainly better than Rice in that regard but he wasn't fizzing passes into the centre forwards all game. Most of his work was keeping it simple ,recycling the ball, feeding it out wide. That's the primary on the ball job of the DM. Certainly as time went on his game got more and more conservative.

Rice or whoever comes in just needs to make sure they mix it up enough. We don't want latter years Carrick but equally Rice as a DM doesn't need to be Pirlo either.

It's hard to say with him. He's 80% of the way there for me. Can he add that bit more to his game and mix it up enough as discussed above?Suppose we don't know until he plays for us.

I'd give them Lingard and £50 million. Just get it done.
 

Bebestation

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if he does all that then maybe. But i dont think ‘positioning’ is worth anything if you take 15 seconds to turn or you cant get out to the wing.
I’m also convinced theres players abroad who are a third of the price.
But if money was no object(certainly will be this summer) then yeah, Rice is proven premier league
I know people say it's not their job and it's the scouts fault - but can you find a CDM that is more like Busquets and not like Kante, Fred or Bissouma?

Busquets couldnt and wouldn't play like Bissouma or Fred or Kante because if he did then as a midfielder he wouldnt be able to provide the defensive support to Xavi and Iniesta. Busquets had to hold his positioning and tackle only as the attack enters his area.


Is there anyone available that reminds you of a player like Busquets currently in the market?

I personally think that's what we are looking for. A player that gives us a shape in midfield due to his consistency in positioning.
 

Floyd

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I know what you mean, he was capable of being an exceptional forward passer and certainly better than Rice in that regard but he wasn't fizzing passes into the centre forwards all game. Most of his work was keeping it simple ,recycling the ball, feeding it out wide. That's the primary on the ball job of the DM. Certainly as time went on his game got more and more conservative.

Rice or whoever comes in just needs to make sure they mix it up enough. We don't want latter years Carrick but equally Rice as a DM doesn't need to be Pirlo either.

It's hard to say with him. He's 80% of the way there for me. Can he add that bit more to his game and mix it up enough as discussed above?Suppose we don't know until he plays for us.

I'd give them Lingard and £50 million. Just get it done.
The one thing I'm uncertain about is his ability to receive the ball deep into our half facing our goal, how comfortable would he be in situations like that? I crap my pants every time Fred gets on the ball like that, he's gotten way better though tbf. Surprisingly McT deals with that very comfortably thanks to his massive frame and quick feet.
 
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he’s a very good player & would be a big upgrade on McT & Fred, but with the current market & shopping domestic, if we get him he’s probably our only big signing, which would be a tad underwhelming in my opinion. I really think we need more. It’s criminal we still don’t have a right winger after all these years.
 

Marwood

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The one thing I'm uncertain about is his ability to receive the ball deep into our half facing our goal, how comfortable would he be in situations like that? I crap my pants every time Fred gets on the ball like that, he's gotten way better tbf. Surprisingly McT deals with that very comfortably thanks to his massive frame and quick feet.
I actually think he's pretty good at that.

I question more his ability to receive the ball on the back foot and turn. So that we can get it up the pitch quickly at times. It's what the PSG midfield did to City in first half last night. Really effective. Not sure he has that yet.