Can't see them selling for less than £40m I'd imagine, they got a similar fee for Tielemans
Declan Rice
- Thread starter roonster09
- Start date
- Status
all i know of busquets is that he can get the ball with 3 players round him, do some ridiculous turn into space and make a pass. He keeps the ball in situations where most players will use it.
there probably is someone similar somewhere but i’m not a scout and dont watch much foreign football
Lingard is by far West Ham best player this season, it’s not that difficult to understand that. If he was younger and has longer contract, it would be 40m plus Rice for Lingard. It’s all well calculated as you see, and attacking player with good stats will always cost higher than defensive player too.
And if you just scroll down a bit, I have actually compared their avg rating and motm too.
There is no way that Lingard is the worth the same as Rice
Lingard will leave on a free if we don’t sell this summer, we have very little leverage and hopefully we get 30m for him
You are criminally underrating Lingard. He is having a Bruno type of impact to West Ham this season, despite length of his contract. 30m won’t get you a player who is capable of scoring 9 goals in 11 PL games from midfield these days, regardless of the length of his contract. We are talking about peak Bruno, peak De Bruyne level of impact here.
So you think we’ll get 60m for him? That’s what WH will want for Rice, at least
We shouldn’t sell him for 60m to be honest. VDB cost us 40m and look how shite he is this season, only 1 goals in 32 games. The sad thing is, we couldn’t give him starts ahead of Bruno, so we are kind of forcing our hands to sell.
Educate myself?
It wasn't ME who called him that.
And if you look at that second URL, it says "the undue criticism of Michael Carrick" which proves my point. He WAS criticised.
He only has a year left on his contract. €30 is about right, perhaps some add-ons if they get into Europe or win a cup
The way I remember it is that Carrick always deferred to Scholes or whoever his midfield partner was, and 95% of Carrick's pass were either sideways or backwards.
After SAF (and Scholes) left, Carrick became more of a playmaker. I'm not saying that he wasn't capable of those defence splitting passes, but that wasn't his job for a good few years.
30m is a day time robbery. I’d rather convinced Lingard to extend his contract here, and sell VDB for 20m instead.
West Ham can feck off if they want to buy Lingard from us.
Regards Rice, he’s not the finished article yet just like carrick or keane, they weren’t the finished article either. He’s got leadership and has played a lot of PL games to date. His skills are good, somewhat restricted due to his role. I’d love him at United, I think he can get much better
Is he a good passer? Feel like we need someone that can pick a pass under pressure as our DM.
He's an older player with a year left on his contract, enjoying a purple patch after a couple of years in the wilderness. All things considered, £30m would be good business.
We've watched Lingard for many years. More importantly, so have West Ham. Nobody with a memory that stretches beyond a couple of months is gonna believe he can sustain his current his output, or that he's worth what you seem to think he is.
Hes average. After watching City vs PSG it just makes me sad that we would be going in this direction.
Hmm I guess that’s something he can improve? I want a proper technical midfielder who can pick a pass in our team.
How about in SAF's last season where Michael Carrick was one of the 6 nominated for PFA Player of the Year alongside Mata, RVP, Bale, Hazard and Suarez? Carrick was a fantastic passer between the lines and stupidly underappreciated.
You're putting a lot of emphasis on a 10 game spell. Are the two seasons prior to that relevant at all?
Wait, players could improve, no?
Udinese fans have watched Bruno for years playing very average football in Italy, doesn’t mean he will be an average player forever, although that’s what sitting in their mind all the time.
He had the most forward passes in Europe in 2012/2013
Please let me introduce you to this link:
https://redmancunian.com/2013/04/19/michael-carrick-the-best-forward-passer-in-europe/
RvP absolutely loved playing with Carrick.
Bruno was, what, 21 or 22 when he left Italy? Lingard is 28. It's not the same thing.
Lingard was overperforming his underlying stats to a greater degree than Lionel Messi during his purple patch. It is the picture book definition of "unsustainable". Which is great for him, but not the level of performance any rational club are going to base their valuation on.
Well Bruno was hailed as our best ever post-Fergie signing last season, and was even being compared to Cantona, when he had only played 14 games in the league last season.
Lingard though has mental health issues during those periods prior to that. We should only judge him based on this season performance.
I keep bringing it up because,
1, We have McT and Fred playing regularly together in midfield. I agree they are both box to box but they are also very good defensively. I suppose the question is at what point do two box to box players cover enough ground and shield the defence well enough to not need a specific DM. The problem with our midfield two is that they can't pass well enough not that they empty the midfield and leave us open. So buy a better passing box to box midfielder who doesn't lower the energy and defensive side of team. Like Bissouma for instance.
2, Brighton are quoting £40 million plus for Bissouma and they are willing to sell, West Ham are quoting £80-100 million for Rice. Whether we just sell Lingard to west Ham and buy Bissouma or swap with cash for Rice the difference in those deals will likely be 30 to 40 million pounds.
Lastly I like Rice as a player I am not saying he doesn't improve us but people thinking we get to play Pogba and Bruno or VDB and Bruno together in midfield because rice can hold midfield on his own will be disappointed when we roll out Rice and Fred week in and week out.
He was about 22-23 when he left Italy, he spent 5 years in Italy.
Sure I am not saying Lingard is better than Bruno, but you just can’t disregard his impact this season as “unsustainable purple patch”. He is still performing up to this moment, so it’s not fair to assume he can’t sustain any longer.
This. People need to understand that Bruno basically plays as a support striker just off the front. Unless this dramatically changes (which I can’t see happening) we’re never going to play with 2 eights and a six.He plays there for Portugal but don’t think Ole fancies that system.
Rice plays in a two with Soucek at West Ham anyway, he’s not played much as a single sitter. How do we know his skill set will translate well to this role? He covers for Soucek a lot when he makes those late runs into the box. I think this will be perfect next to Pogba or Mctominay (only in bigger games when Pogba moves up a line).
You can't disregard his impact or that he has shown form but the extent of the form he has shown is absolutely an unsustainable purple patch.
As per Opta's stats, this season he has overperformed his xG by 4.47 of the 9 goals he's scored. 57.6% of his shots have hit the target, as opposed to 42.3%, 42.3% and 38.5% for the league's best goalscorers. In terms of goal conversion he's at 27.3% whereas they're at 19.2%, 17.9% and 15.4%.
Everything about that screams unsustainable and no club in their right mind is going to base their valuation off that current rate of output.
I really dont understand this bit - we did this with Matic after project restart didnt we? Not saying Declan is as good as Matic, but he is at least more suited to this than both Fred and McT. Why is it so far-fetched to believe that is the plan of Solskjær at least in some games?
Well football is never only about linear progression, he could be another late developer you know.
For example, Vardy was an average player before he reached 28 too, spending most of his time in lower division, nothing special. His first season in PL, only scored 5 goals, very poor return for striker. You can draw up all kind of stats with xG analysis or whatsoever, he is still very average. By the time he reached 28, he suddenly managed to scored 28 goals out of nowhere. Purple patch? He then went on become one of top goalscorer in PL in next 6 years or so, up to this very moment.
So tell me, why do you assume there absolutely no chance for Lingard for doing something similar?
For the most part it would be expected that they keep things relatively simple. However I think a little bit more than that is expected at this football club and that is the part I'm questioning. Whether he can execute the type of incisive passing we sometimes miss with any degree of regularity. Whether we can rely on his touch to play out more convincingly. Whether he drifts in and out of games or whether he can be central to everything we do through that part of the pitch. These are the things that are somewhat less common than a bloke that can pass it about a bit and put in a tackle, we've arguably got a few guys that are pretty capable of this. Maybe he is, I wouldn't proclaim to know everything about the guy.
I've really not watched enough of Rodri to comment on that comparison but it seems to me that Rodri often has guys like De Bruyne, Silva, and also the creative wide players around him. The composition of our side is very different meaning we are missing certain qualities that ideally a purchase would help to compensate for.
Exactly.
Matic, Pogba and Bruno was a midfield 3 for us that got overtaken by Fred and Mctomminay because they performed better.
This was largely due to Matic's decline.
Rice is a replacement for Matic and not a replacement for Fred and Mctomminay.
You need to consider age and the length of the contract. Those two are important in transfer fees. There is a reason why Maguire & Bissaka were so expensive. Some had long contract, some had both long contract and very young age. Rice is just more valuable as investment than Lingard given the conditions.
Because people expect Ole will do it in all games not just ‘’some games’‘.
Vardy's xG over the 4 seasons FBref have recorded it is 71 goals, he's scored 74. The xG form Lingard has shown at West Ham projected over a season would only be matched by Messi, who is on a different level to any other player at outperforming his xG. I doubt Lingard will become one of the best players in the world.
Lingard has always been a very streaky player who scores lower probability goals. It's far more likely that he'll revert to type.
Well lets be honest it might work. It isn't an outrageous concept. I just think the evidence and odds stand against taking an £80 million gamble on it.
Rice doesn't play the lone midfield anchor for West Ham or England he might be capable of doing so he has most of the skills to do so but it will be a new position for him. The two players he is supposed to accommodate in midfield are Pogba and VDB. We have watched them both play there this season and it didn't work with any of the other players for various reasons and so there is a very strong chance it won't work with Rice. Pogba dwells on the ball and VDB is on the slow side for a midfield player in front of our back four and expecting him to be a box to box player alongside Rice is a big ask for both players.
Add in the fact that Pogba one of the reasons people keep saying we should buy Rice is to get the best out of him, has one year left on his contract and might not be here next year.
Knowing United we will end up buying a player to get the best out of Rice, the player we got to get the best out of Pogba who left because we bought Bruno because he is better than Pogba where Pogba wants to play.
Wouldn't it just be easier to buy a player who plays well in center midfield whoever else is playing in center midfield but is better than the ones we play there now?
If we buy Rice then I would guess we end up playing McT or fred alongside Rice because we win more games that way than playing Rice with either Pogba (if he stays) or VDB. Followed by lots of sad frowns in the match day thread after the team sheets come out.
Man city played with Rodri and Fernandinho as pair few times this season. I think people’s idea of having Rice will allow player like Fred, VDB, and McTominay to get into more advance area because Fred is much better in winning the ball back in the opposition half, VDB & McTominay are more of box to box not holding mid.
Personally, he will improve our defense because he’s better defensively than McTominay, improve our counter attack because he’s good in winning the ball back without conceded fouls, and much more composed than McTominay and Fred in keeping possession and passing decision.
I love how much we under rate our own players but over rate others. Bisouma for example makes .5 key passes per game. Fred makes .9. But all of a sudden Bisouma is this be-all-end-all world beater. But let me guess, Goldbridge embedded it into your brain that he's some world class DM so you just went with it.
Same goes for Rice. Of the two I like Rice better (mind you he will cost a lot more), but people act as if we will all of a sudden switch to a 4-3-3 once either of them sign. Problem is, we don't play a 4-2-3-1 to protect Maguire/Lindelof like Goldbridge told you. We play a 4-2-3-1 because of Bruno.
If we were to play a 4-3-3 all of a sudden there is no place for Bruno because he is a #10, not a #8. So does that mean Bruno goes to the wing? Probably not. What it would really mean is we continue to play a 4-2-3-1 with a new player rotating into the team in place of Matic..
Same goes for Rice. Of the two I like Rice better (mind you he will cost a lot more), but people act as if we will all of a sudden switch to a 4-3-3 once either of them sign. Problem is, we don't play a 4-2-3-1 to protect Maguire/Lindelof like Goldbridge told you. We play a 4-2-3-1 because of Bruno.
If we were to play a 4-3-3 all of a sudden there is no place for Bruno because he is a #10, not a #8. So does that mean Bruno goes to the wing? Probably not. What it would really mean is we continue to play a 4-2-3-1 with a new player rotating into the team in place of Matic..
Not disagreeing with any of you. I thought Carrick was a great player but there was a good 5 year stint where he largely deferred responsibility to his partner. I did say 'when Scholes retired' and remember in 12/13 this was post retirement Scholes who played less and was not a guaranteed XI player.
If you look at 06-12 then you will likely see different numbers, for one of the most attacking sides in Europe throughout this era.
Again, not hating on Carrick - world class but he only started to consistently express himself when Scholes' powers started to wean. Maybe it was tactical instruction, I don't know, but it definitely happened.
- Status