Declan Rice

Abraxas

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I am coming around to this one. It feels like the perfect time to get him with West Ham wanting Lingard. I don't think there will be a direct swap deal but it gives us a chance to form a relationship and try and make a deal.

It just feels like a good move to get somebody like this that knows the league, is young but has experience and could be a solid figure for us for the rest of his career if things go well. In the long run it may be good value. It is definitely the type Ferguson would go for even if it cost a bit because he would see the long term potential for the player to form a bond with the club.

The arguments around his positional play compared to what we have and the fact he'd allow us to get Fred's pressing higher up the pitch or allow McTominay to play box to box with more conviction make sense.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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In style, perhaps. A massive downgrade in quality.
Depends. Kante is much better in defending than Fred but on the ball Fred offers more in his passing than Kante. Rice is currently almost on the same level as Matic in my opinion with higher potential.
 

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Like said, I've got 'Harry' vibes about Rice. Trust me, if Scott was wearing a West Ham shirt, he look different too. Lingard looks better in a West Ham shirt for good reason and people underestimate the pressure and expectations of playing for truly big clubs!! Rice is a Utd player, just not sure if the timing is right as we need experience more than potential at mo....
If he slots in perfectly into he first team and improves us like Harry has done? I'm all for it.
 

davidmichael

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What role was he deployed in the 2008 Champions League final? If he was a pure out and defensive midfielder then he would've been deployed in a deeper role.
Sir Alex played him on the right wing with Ronaldo moved out to the left but that was all very much for tactical reasons, Hargreaves was very much bought as a pure out and out defensive midfielder which outside of a few games at right back was where he played his whole career prior to us signing him and the post I replied too said we’d never signed a pure defensive midfielder before.
 

Pickle85

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Depends. Kante is much better in defending than Fred but on the ball Fred offers more in his passing than Kante. Rice is currently almost on the same level as Matic in my opinion with higher potential.
Fred offers more to the opposition in his passing, that's for sure...
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Your profile says you're 27 years old. And when we signed Keane you weren't even born or were a few months old.

There were many games in Europe where our midfield including Keane struggled against teams who were adept at retaining possession. The likes of Redondo for Madrid and the Bayern midfield at the time comfortably won midfield battles against us. So try not to argue just for the sake of arguing.
Thus, why I compare him to Kimmich not to Modric/Xavi/Scholes.

You know that Keane is actually playing for us until 2005 and I have been United fans long before that to witnessed Keane. And with internet, you can get access for some classic matches.
 

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How's Rice's passing range, ability to receive the ball in tight spaces and move it along quickly to the front 4? I don't doubt his defensive capability but haven't watched him enough to form a solid opinion about his passing range and that's my main concern. Last thing we need is another CM who can't pass the fecking ball leaving it up to Maguire/Lindelof to play it out or needing Bruno/Pogba to drop deep and initiate play.
 

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Thus, why I compare him to Kimmich not to Modric/Xavi/Scholes.

You know that Keane is actually playing for us until 2005 and I have been United fans long before that to witnessed Keane. And with internet, you can get access for some classic matches.
My point when I mentioned Keane was that he wasn't a pure DM, but rather a box to box midfielder when we signed him.

I also don't believe Keane is similar to Kimmich but I'm not gonna argue that opinion. But Bayern as a team also don't play with pure DMs IMO.
 

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Sir Alex played him on the right wing with Ronaldo moved out to the left but that was all very much for tactical reasons, Hargreaves was very much bought as a pure out and out defensive midfielder which outside of a few games at right back was where he played his whole career prior to us signing him and the post I replied too said we’d never signed a pure defensive midfielder before.
So he wasn't a pure out and out defensive midfielder. Fergie used him in various roles. And in that UCL final, we attacked in a 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 and defended in a 4-4-1-1. With Hargreaves providing fullback protection off the ball and getting forward when we transitioned play in a 4-3-3.
 

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Arguably with Shaw and Wan Bissaka improving their attacking game recently and with us playing 2 ball playing CB'S all in a back 4 - I'm not entirely sure how that back 4 needs a deep lying playmaker in front of them to provide the team a dicated element of creativity.

Is that what is really needed? A dictated tempo to our game or a player that sits there and tells everyone in front of them that they are free to attack?


It's the thing about Rice - even if we need a deep lying playmaker in our squad (which we do); it doesnt hide the fact that we need a central positioned ball winning midfielder either.

It's more about who or which type of CDM a person wants first is what's being talked about.
 

DWelbz19

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Depends. Kante is much better in defending than Fred but on the ball Fred offers more in his passing than Kante. Rice is currently almost on the same level as Matic in my opinion with higher potential.
Yeah, you’re off your rocker. Fred is not a better passer than Kante, not noticeably, at least. Declan Rice is nowhere near as good as what peak Matic offered.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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My point when I mentioned Keane was that he wasn't a pure DM, but rather a box to box midfielder when we signed him.
Yes. I'm aware he was box to box before joined Man United. So why is it relevant to what I said about Keane?

I also don't believe Keane is similar to Kimmich but I'm not gonna argue that opinion. But Bayern as a team also don't play with pure DMs IMO.
That's why I said Keane is like Kimmich but on steroid physically. It is not just based on technique, their work rate & stamina but also their role/position as Kimmich & Keane can play equally good as box to box and DM. If anything Vidal is not good as DM.
 

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Yes. I'm aware of it. As fans of Keane I'm aware he was box to box before joined Man United. But why is it relevant to what I said about Keane?



That's why I said Keane is like Kimmich but on steroid physically. It is not just based on technique, their work rate & stamina but also their role as Kimmich & Keane can play equally good as box to box and DM. If anything Vidal is not good as DM.
What you said had no relevance to my post, and it was you who initiated the discussion which was irrelevant to what I was talking about.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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What you said had no relevance to my post, and it was you who initiated the discussion which was irrelevant to what I was talking about.
What I said about Keane is that Keane is more complete package of midfielder just like Kimmich. Can do playmaking and defense with capability to play as box to box and DM in that double pivot. That complete package attributes make him suitable to play next to non or less playmaker like McTominay/Fred and get the best out of our best playmakers like Pogba & Bruno. Thus, it is relevant to what you were talking about because it is countering your view on Keane.
 

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What I said about Keane is that Keane is more complete package of midfielder just like Kimmich. Can do playmaking and defense with capability to play as box to box and DM in that double pivot. That complete package attributes make him suitable to play next to non or less playmaker like McTominay/Fred and get the best out of our best playmakers like Pogba & Bruno. Thus, it is relevant to what you were talking about because it is countering your view on Keane.
You weren't countering my view but rather going on a tangent about something which I wasn't arguing in the first instance. But you've got form for that.

What I was saying is that Keane was a box to box player when we signed him. He was a #8 who could also play as a #6 and wasn't just purely a DM.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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You weren't countering my view but rather going on a tangent about something which I wasn't arguing in the first instance. But you've got form for that.

What I was saying is that Keane was a box to box player when we signed him. He was a #8 who could also play as a #6 and wasn't just purely a DM.
And why is Keane was a box to box player when we signed him is relevant to what you said about we should focus on signing Scholes rather than a Keane?
 

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And why is Keane was a box to box player when we signed him is relevant to what you said about we should focus on signing Scholes rather than a Keane?
It's relevant in the context of people talking about us signing a pure DM. Which was being discussed prior to me making the post in question.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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It's relevant in the context of people talking about us signing a pure DM. Which was being discussed prior to me making the post in question.
But my post wasn't referring to that. My post was referring and countering to what you said about signing Scholes rather than Keane because your reason was Scholes provides a level of creativity to level the best teams in Europe.
 

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But my post wasn't referring to that. My post was referring and countering to what you said about we should focus on signing Scholes rather than a Keane.
Your counter was that Keane was something on steroids etc. But if you go back and see how we performed as a midfield in Europe during Keane's peak years, you'll find that we more often than not, got controlled in midfield. Jose Mari Bakero dominated the midfield against Keane and Ince in 94 playing for Barca. Redondo did the same for Real Madrid in 99/2000. And Bayern also did the same in the same year in the KO stages where they comfortably beat us home and away. Leverkusen inspired by Michael Ballack also knocked us out in the semi finals. With the exception of Turin 99, I'm not sure your Keane on steroids analogy holds much weight.
 

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Rice is better than McFred though and he'd be a goód signing if we could get him for a reasonable price. But I don't believe it's possible to sign him for a reasonable sum from West Ham.

Rice - Camavinga/Neuhaus, double pivot would be potentially very good. But I'd rather see us prioritize either Camavinga or Neuhaus as things stand.
That's the thing for me, if Rice was signed we would need someone to play alongside him, I see a lot of posts with people thinking Rice means we could play Pogba and Bruno in a 4-3-3, it doesn't, and on the other side of the coin you have people saying he's no better than McFred, now on the ball I'd say he's only marginally better but defensively he's streets ahead positionally.
 

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That's the thing for me, if Rice was signed we would need someone to play alongside him, I see a lot of posts with people thinking Rice means we could play Pogba and Bruno in a 4-3-3, it doesn't, and on the other side of the coin you have people saying he's no better than McFred, now on the ball I'd say he's only marginally better but defensively he's streets ahead positionally.
I agree. I'm of the opinion we need the more adventurous player in the two man midfield, who is adept at playing the double pivot role both offensively and defensively. And once that's done, then I'd look at someone like Rice, who for me is a combative midfielder. But we've got one too many combatants in midfield currently without having the conductor.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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Wasn't our best midfield last season Bruno - Pogba - Matic. We still rotated McFred in tougher games. I don't see why Bruno Pogba Rice can't work against lesser sides
 

croadyman

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People are missing what rice does compared to what Fred and mctom do.
Fred is a tackler yes, but not a sitter, he runs all over the place. Rice will hold his discipline.
McTominay is a box to box number 8 not a defensive number 8. People lump him and Fred together, but it’s only because he also sticks his foot in and helps out
If we want a pure DM then Rice is a good option IF we can negotiate a good deal throwing lingard in
Do you think Ole is looking for a purely sitting CDM or someone who is more of a tempo player on the ball
 

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I agree. I'm of the opinion we need the more adventurous player in the two man midfield, who is adept at playing the double pivot role both offensively and defensively. And once that's done, then I'd look at someone like Rice, who for me is a combative midfielder. But we've got one too many combatants in midfield currently without having the conductor.
Yeah, I see where you're coming from but I'll be honest, I'm tired of Fred and Mctominay starting regularly, our double pivot needs a full refresh and upgrade.

Wasn't our best midfield last season Bruno - Pogba - Matic. We still rotated McFred in tougher games. I don't see why Bruno Pogba Rice can't work against lesser sides
It was only a few games though and we shouldn't have to switch out key roles when playing better teams, and even against smaller sides who press Pogba can be a weak link deeper. Listen to him interviewed, he enjoys playing on the left of the front 4 as it's similar to his Juve role, and he adds so much creativity when him and Bruno are in tandem in our attack, he's much closer to Ruud Gullit than Yaya Toure. We'll be a better team with Pogba in the front 4 and two proper midfielders in the double pivot.
 

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I don't believe we need a pure DM and have never bought one before. And Solskjaer's preferred play style doesn't necessarily require one. I posted tweets a while back which stated that Solskjaer wants a midfielder who can play both the #6 and #8 roles, which makes sense if one wants to adopt a high tempo, fast transition play style, whilst also providing a counter pressing option along with overloading opposition defensive zones.

This team needs a player in the double pivot who will come in and provide a level of creativity that will bridge the gap between us and the best teams in Europe. A player who will provide craft/guile and a high level of line breaking ability whilst also being a help in defending his defensive zone in front of either the LCB or the RCB and also providing a counter pressing option. This profile of player doesn't exist in our first team. Hannibal Mejbri or Isak Hansen may turn into that type of player but IMO it would best if we focused on signing a Scholes rather than a Keane as things stand. Keane by the way was a box to box player too.
Any suggestions
 

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Whatever the view, with Lingard playing so well for them, seems like a perfect chance to broker a deal....
 

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Any suggestions
I personally like the look of Florian Neuhaus who at 24 years old, looks a interesting player for the role, and is reported to be available for a very reasonable price. He can sit deep and dictate play in a structured set up and can also get forward and link the play to a good level. He's also well drilled with his off the ball work, due to working under Marco Rose, where counter pressing/wide pressing, comes naturally to him.

But there's also many other options.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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Your counter was that Keane was something on steroids etc. But if you go back and see how we performed as a midfield in Europe during Keane's peak years, you'll find that we more often than not, got controlled in midfield. Jose Mari Bakero dominated the midfield against Keane and Ince in 94 playing for Barca. Redondo did the same for Real Madrid in 99/2000. And Bayern also did the same in the same year in the KO stages where they comfortably beat us home and away. Leverkusen inspired by Michael Ballack also knocked us out in the semi finals. With the exception of Turin 99, I'm not sure your Keane on steroids analogy holds much weight.
You named few teams but Keane has been playing for years in many games. We can also say about our 06/07 Scholes, Carrick & Fletcher were dominated easily by AC Milan's midfield. So having Scholes doesn't prove your point if we use the same type of logic.

We beat City 2-0 this year with Fred & McT and not the first time we beat them with those pair or Matic Fred. I guess you could make the same argument how Gundogan, Rodri KDB trio or Silva KDB Rodri trio were dominated by Fred McT/Matic and Bruno. I think that sounds more embarrassing than being dominated by Redondo.

Sometime it depends on how the manager use the player as a team.
 
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andersj

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If we decide to buy a PL player with close to 10 000 min I’m quite confident that we get a type of player the manager actually want and feel we need. We will see. I think we will try and get him.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

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It was only a few games though and we shouldn't have to switch out key roles when playing better teams, and even against smaller sides who press Pogba can be a weak link deeper. Listen to him interviewed, he enjoys playing on the left of the front 4 as it's similar to his Juve role, and he adds so much creativity when him and Bruno are in tandem in our attack, he's much closer to Ruud Gullit than Yaya Toure. We'll be a better team with Pogba in the front 4 and two proper midfielders in the double pivot.
I agree Pogba is best further up the pitch. I don't think Ole is going to do this permanently. We usually try to accommodate Pogba and McFred any time we face tough or tricky opponents or to protect a lead. Pogba is probably now second choice on the left so that's more game time for him on the left and McFred at double pivot if Rashford is rotated or injured. Against lesser sides and barring injuries Pogba goes back to the double pivot.
 
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Adnan

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You named few teams but Keane has been playing for years in many games. We can also say about our 06/07 Scholes, Carrick & Fletcher were dominated easily by AC Milan's midfield. So having Scholes doesn't prove your point if we use the same type of logic.

We beat City 2-0 this year with Fred & McT and not the first time we beat them with those pair or Matic Fred. I guess you could make the same argument how Gundogan, Rodri KDB trio or Silva KDB Rodri trio were dominated by Fred McT/Matic and Bruno. I think that sounds more embarrassing than being dominated by Redondo.

Sometime it depends on how the manager use the player as a team.
I could've used Keane playing in a midfield which lost to Rotor Volgograd in the UEFA Cup, if I was gonna be obtuse like you.

The Fred, McTominay midfield didn't contest a midfield battle against City, but we rather setup to counter attack by ceding space and hitting them on the break. But I'm not surprised you wouldn't understand that.
 

Marwood

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Your counter was that Keane was something on steroids etc. But if you go back and see how we performed as a midfield in Europe during Keane's peak years, you'll find that we more often than not, got controlled in midfield. Jose Mari Bakero dominated the midfield against Keane and Ince in 94 playing for Barca. Redondo did the same for Real Madrid in 99/2000. And Bayern also did the same in the same year in the KO stages where they comfortably beat us home and away. Leverkusen inspired by Michael Ballack also knocked us out in the semi finals. With the exception of Turin 99, I'm not sure your Keane on steroids analogy holds much weight.
You've handpicked a few games there out of an entire career and seemed to have put those losses at Keane's door. Bizarre stuff.

For starters '94 wasn't Keane's peak years. He'd only just joined the club.

The game against Redondo Keane himself has said he had a poor game, it happens.

You think Turin '99 was the exception to Keane's career? Come on.

He had a full career of helping us to control games and win trophy after trophy.

Even if the other poster has exaggerated Keane's influence that's still a really poor post from you.

I could go back to any players career and pick three bad results. I certainly wouldn't use those three games to define them.
 

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You've handpicked a few games there out of an entire career and seemed to have put those losses at Keane's door. Bizarre stuff.

For starters '94 wasn't Keane's peak years. He'd only just joined the club.

The game against Redondo Keane himself has said he had a poor game, it happens.

You think Turin '99 was the exception to Keane's career? Come on.

He had a full career of helping us to control games and win trophy after trophy.

Even if the other poster has exaggerated Keane's influence that's still a really poor post from you.

I could go back to any players career and pick three bad results. I certainly wouldn't use those three games to define them.
My post wasn't to put Keane down he was obviously a fantastic player. But for someone to suggest he was Kimmich on Steroids is false when our midfield is scruitinized in that period. We struggled in numerous games against teams who were technically strong in those times and it wasn't just Keane who struggled against Europe's best.
 

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How's Rice's passing range, ability to receive the ball in tight spaces and move it along quickly to the front 4? I don't doubt his defensive capability but haven't watched him enough to form a solid opinion about his passing range and that's my main concern. Last thing we need is another CM who can't pass the fecking ball leaving it up to Maguire/Lindelof to play it out or needing Bruno/Pogba to drop deep and initiate play.
That's the thing for me, if Rice was signed we would need someone to play alongside him, I see a lot of posts with people thinking Rice means we could play Pogba and Bruno in a 4-3-3, it doesn't, and on the other side of the coin you have people saying he's no better than McFred, now on the ball I'd say he's only marginally better but defensively he's streets ahead positionally.
Disagree about on the ball being marginally ahead, I think he is considerably ahead. Neither have a huge range of passing but Rice is far more aware of what is around him, far more intelligent on the ball and I think his short range passing is actually very good, he usually has the right weight of pass consistently. I would only compare them evenly in terms of dribbling, Fred has more talent, Rice more drive and power, but none are great dribblers.

As for signing someone alongside him...I agree. But personalyl just like we needed to sign two centre backs when we signed one in Maguire.....we still need another one, I think we actually need to do the same in midfield unless a youngster is ready to step up. Not through lack of quality but I just think bar certain games, none of our central mdfielders (apart from Matic who is ageing and slows the play down too much for me now), none of our central midfielders are actually suited to playing that role week in week out over a season in a title winning side. I think we need a partner for Maguire and a fresh midfield partnership for the pivots. Personally I would sell both Pogba and Fred.