Declan Rice

gajender

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My post wasn't to put Keane down he was obviously a fantastic player. But for someone to suggest he was Kimmich on Steroids is false when our midfield is scruitinized in that period. We struggled in numerous games against teams who were technically strong in those times and it wasn't just Keane who struggled against Europe's best.
I don't have much knowledge of United's struggle going that far back but didn't we set up Midfield two in Europe against most teams who had Midfield three as their default setting ,maybe that also contributed to our struggles as well.
 

OrdinaryVice

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The more I watch Bissouma the more I would like for him to be ours. He could improve us so much.
 

Marwood

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My post wasn't to put Keane down he was obviously a fantastic player. But for someone to suggest he was Kimmich on Steroids is false when our midfield is scruitinized in that period. We struggled in numerous games against teams who were technically strong in those times and it wasn't just Keane who struggled against Europe's best.
Keane was up there with Europe's best.

Picking out two games from 1994 when he'd only just joined and was far from his prime. That's sneaky stuff. Especially when there were other much bigger factors like not being able to pick our best team contributing to that result.

There were also a huge number of games where we excelled against top teams with Keane at the centre of it. Saying Turin was an exception?

I think you're miles off.
 

Adnan

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Keane was up there with Europe's best.

Picking out two games from 1994 when he'd only just joined and was far from his prime. That's sneaky stuff. Especially when there were other much bigger factors like not being able to pick our best team contributing to that result.

There were also a huge number of games where we excelled against top teams with Keane at the centre of it. Saying Turin was an exception?

I think you're miles off.
Turin was a exception in Europe..
 

Teja

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Arguably with Shaw and Wan Bissaka improving their attacking game recently and with us playing 2 ball playing CB'S all in a back 4 - I'm not entirely sure how that back 4 needs a deep lying playmaker in front of them to provide the team a dicated element of creativity.

Is that what is really needed? A dictated tempo to our game or a player that sits there and tells everyone in front of them that they are free to attack?


It's the thing about Rice - even if we need a deep lying playmaker in our squad (which we do); it doesnt hide the fact that we need a central positioned ball winning midfielder either.

It's more about who or which type of CDM a person wants first is what's being talked about.
I found an interesting tweet yesterday that talks about situations like this. Most teams play 3 midfielders now and you have to have some combination of ball winning (both in transition / in defence) + progressive passing (deep playmaker stuff) + progressive carrying + shot creation.

For instance, Casemiro (Ball winning / DM) + Kroos (Progressive passing) + Modric (Dribbling / Chance creation) is one of the most balanced midfields in Europe.


I'd love to see one of these made for United but I suspect if you add Rice into the mix and make our midfield Rice + Bruno + Pogba, you will have a bit of everything.
 

united_99

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Turin was a exception in Europe..
You said you aren’t putting Keane down but you are doing exactly this. You can literally pick several world class midfielders and find games where they got dominated by other midfielders.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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I could've used Keane playing in a midfield which lost to Rotor Volgograd in the UEFA Cup, if I was gonna be obtuse like you.

The Fred, McTominay midfield didn't contest a midfield battle against City, but we rather setup to counter attack by ceding space and hitting them on the break. But I'm not surprised you wouldn't understand that.
I could say the same that we lost to Celtic in 06/07 1-0 and dropped our position to 2nd in UCL group after the loss.

I could use your point by saying the same 2000 Real that ''dominated'' us had Scholes in it. If Scholes playing alongside Keane can't dominate 2000 Real team, how is he going to dominate top european teams pairing with Fred/McT?

You can't answer that because football doesn't work as per the point you made. It depends on the playing style and how the manager wants the team plays. Here something I can back it up by using the manager's opinions:

Did you watch Ole's the Roma post match interview? He mentioned that the reason why he sticked with McFred after half time because it's about creating balance. If we are talking about McFred's main attributes, Keane had all of them.

Ole also previously mentioned in his interview that if there is one player in 1999, he would pick Keane.
 

Adnan

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You said you aren’t putting Keane down but you are doing exactly this. You can literally pick several world class midfielders and find games where they got dominated by other midfielders.
I'm countering the notion that he was Kimmich on Steroids, which isn't the case. Kimmich is a world class player in the game today, and I'd have to put Kimmich down if I was to agree to the above.
 

Adnan

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I could say the same that we lost to Celtic in 06/07 1-0 and dropped our position to 2nd in UCL group after the loss.

I could use your point by saying the same 2000 Real that ''dominated'' us had Scholes in it. If Scholes playing alongside Keane can't dominate 2000 Real team, how is he going to dominate top european teams pairing with Fred/McT?

Football doesn't work as per the point you made. It depends on the playing style and how the manager plays. Here something I can back it up by using the manager's opinions:

Did you watch Ole's the Roma post match interview? He mentioned that the reason why he sticked with McFred after half time because it's about creating balance. If we are talking about McFred's main attributes, Keane had all of them.

Ole also previously mentioned in his interview that if there is one player in 1999, he would pick Keane.
I never said Scholes was Zidane on steroids.
 

united_99

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I'm countering the notion that he was Kimmich on Steroids, which isn't the case. Kimmich is a world class player in the game today, and I'd have to put Kimmich down if I was to agree to the above.
So instead you decided to put Keane down. Bless you.
 
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The only game where he was 'Kimmich on steroids'
No you’re not, you took it well further than that, you just claimed that Turin was the exception for Keane.

feck me you even mentioned the Ballack game in an attempt to put Keane down, despite the fact that Roy missed the first leg, he was on the bench after just returning from injury and him missing was one of the main reasons we were shite that night, he scored in the second leg, he was one of the best players on the pitch that night.
 

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Turin was a exception in Europe..
What did Keane do in Turin that he didn't do in any other European tie?

I don't want to derail the thread so to bring it back round if you think Turin was an exception for Keane then Rice or whoever will never be good enough for you.
 
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The only game where he was 'Kimmich on steroids'
Utter bollocks, the mere fact that you mentioned Leverkusen without having any idea what went on in those two games; and just how much Keane’s hamstring injury in the first leg hampered us shows that you have a stupid bias here and it’s probably time you backed off.
 

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Your counter was that Keane was something on steroids etc. But if you go back and see how we performed as a midfield in Europe during Keane's peak years, you'll find that we more often than not, got controlled in midfield. Jose Mari Bakero dominated the midfield against Keane and Ince in 94 playing for Barca. Redondo did the same for Real Madrid in 99/2000. And Bayern also did the same in the same year in the KO stages where they comfortably beat us home and away. Leverkusen inspired by Michael Ballack also knocked us out in the semi finals. With the exception of Turin 99, I'm not sure your Keane on steroids analogy holds much weight.
That was far more to do with Fergie's out of date 442 than anything. The fact Scholes couldn't tackle to save himself didn't help either.

Fergie brought in Veron to try and rectify this but he was nothing like a Man Utd type of midfielder. If Fergie had have landed Viera instead that summer which he came close to doing, then make no mistake, we would have had the best midfield 3 in premier league history and that midfield would have won a couple more champions league titles.
 

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No you’re not, you took it well further than that, you just claimed that Turin was the exception for Keane.

feck me you even mentioned the Ballack game in an attempt to put Keane down, despite the fact that Roy missed the first leg, he was on the bench after just returning from injury and him missing was one of the main reasons we were shite that night, he scored in the second leg, he was one of the best players on the pitch that night.
Ok, list the games where he excelled against the the world's best midfielders in Europe? Because when someone describes him as 'Kimmich on Steroids' then I expect Zinedine Zidane level greatness.
 

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I agree Pogba is best further up the pitch. I don't think Ole is going to do this permanently. We usually try to accommodate Pogba and McFred any time we face tough or tricky opponents or to protect a lead. Pogba is probably now second choice on the left so that's more game time for him on the left and McFred at double pivot if Rashford is rotated or injured. Against lesser sides and barring injuries Pogba goes back to the double pivot.
I think Ole is smart enough to realize we are a much better team with Pogba in the front 4, there's no benefit in removing him to play Rashford, it creates a huge inbalance with Bruno as the only real creator and 3 forwards around him, Rashford needs to get used to competing for the RW with Mason as Pogba offers us much more guile and control in attack and it helps Bruno as they can't double mark him.

Disagree about on the ball being marginally ahead, I think he is considerably ahead. Neither have a huge range of passing but Rice is far more aware of what is around him, far more intelligent on the ball and I think his short range passing is actually very good, he usually has the right weight of pass consistently. I would only compare them evenly in terms of dribbling, Fred has more talent, Rice more drive and power, but none are great dribblers.

As for signing someone alongside him...I agree. But personalyl just like we needed to sign two centre backs when we signed one in Maguire.....we still need another one, I think we actually need to do the same in midfield unless a youngster is ready to step up. Not through lack of quality but I just think bar certain games, none of our central mdfielders (apart from Matic who is ageing and slows the play down too much for me now), none of our central midfielders are actually suited to playing that role week in week out over a season in a title winning side. I think we need a partner for Maguire and a fresh midfield partnership for the pivots. Personally I would sell both Pogba and Fred.
Fair enough mate, I've never been impressed with Rice on the ball but I'm sick to death of McFred starting all of the time, so regardless of how much better I'm willing to concede he's better than them both overall.

I think we need a CB and two midfielders but with the re-signing of Bailly I don't see us getting one this summer as I don't think Axel will be sold, I just hope one of those two gets an opportunity alongside Maguire next season. I'd rather keep Pogba and cement a front 4 of him, Bruno, Cavani/Martial and Greenwood/Rashford, and invest in 2 midfielders this summer, an outlay of £100M should get the quality required and the sales of De Gea and Lingard will offset some of the expenditure.
 

united_99

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I'm sure you'll survive.
Oh don’t worry. I will definitely survive someone’s attempt to bring Keane down, even more when such an attempt even includes a game from 94 when Keane as a young player was playing his first ever European games in a team which itself had hardly any European experience.
 

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Still personally think we'd be so much more solid with Rice than what we currently have. While we've been absolutely incredible at turning things around this season, history suggests falling behind every other match isn't a great strategy. The number of goals we concede that feel 'stupid' or 'sloppy' is staggering, and I really think having a desciplined, dedicated defensive resource there would transform us.

If you think about, we're the only 'big' team that doesn't. Casemiro, Fernadinho, Kante, Fabinho, Ndidi, Busquets etc. We have Fred. Who we all kind of have huge affection for, but literally 9/10 matches are also screaming at him for being out of position, not making simple passes and so forth.

Now, if Ole would still insist on playing a double-defensive pivot even with a defensive player, that might negate his value. But realistically it could really transform us.
I wouldn't really say Kante is disciplined. It's his partner who tends to play a more disciplined role while Kante runs all over the place pressing the opposition and winning the ball all over the field. Similar to what Fred does for us although Kante is better defensively (Fred is a better passer/playmaker though).
 
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Ok, list the games where he excelled against the the world's best midfielders in Europe?
In 99 alone he was top versus Bayern, Barca & Inter.... and him missing in the final was a shocker, the difference between United v Bayern in the groups that season, with Keane and in the final without him was night and day. He scored against them in the groups remember.

That’s just one season.

I could give you a tonne more, and the Irish lads will give you examples like the ridiculous performances v Holland.
 

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In 99 alone he was top versus Bayern, Barca & Inter.... and him missing in the final was a shocker, the difference between United v Bayern in the groups that season, with Keane and in the final without him was night and day. He scored against them in the groups remember.

That’s just one season.

I could give you a tonne more, and the Irish lads will give you examples like the ridiculous performances v Holland.
I could make the same argument about Kimmich last season. How does it make Keane exponentionally superior to Kimmich?
 

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I found an interesting tweet yesterday that talks about situations like this. Most teams play 3 midfielders now and you have to have some combination of ball winning (both in transition / in defence) + progressive passing (deep playmaker stuff) + progressive carrying + shot creation.

For instance, Casemiro (Ball winning / DM) + Kroos (Progressive passing) + Modric (Dribbling / Chance creation) is one of the most balanced midfields in Europe.


I'd love to see one of these made for United but I suspect if you add Rice into the mix and make our midfield Rice + Bruno + Pogba, you will have a bit of everything.
This is where I feel many don't see this perspective. Solskjaer has shown favouring the 3 man midfield and having success as witnessed with Herrera, Pogba and Matic. Rice provides the fluidity of Ole opting against the double pivot in favour of more creativity in possession without losing defensive presence in the midfield. Especially in fixtures when the emphasis is on the team to break the opposition down.

Having both Pogba / Bruno occupy central attacking positions could raise the bar for the teams performances.
 

Adnan

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I’ve already said, you went way beyond that when you tried belittling Keane and with examples like fecking Leverkusen which you have still failed to hold your hands up to.
Who on earth are you to dictate to me how far I can go. The bottom line is that a claim was made that Keane was Kimmich on Steroids which doesn't hold up to much scrutiny due to the obvious class of the Bayern midfielder.
 
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Who on earth are you to dictate to me how far I can go. The bottom line is that a claim was made that Keane was Kimmich on Steroids which doesn't hold up to much scrutiny due to the obvious class of the Bayern midfielder.
Which is a perfectly fine opinion to hold. No idea why you’d then start pretending Ballack outclassed him, refusing to hold your hands up about that being utterly incorrect and then making out he only played great once.

Weird way of trying to make your argument.

Annnnnyway, your opinion on Rice? Mine is that I can’t believe there’s now 110 pages on a good player, and that gb seems so desperate for it to be 111 pages, especially when there’s zero chance of WHU selling at a price we’d pay.
 

Adnan

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Which is a perfectly fine opinion to hold. No idea why you’d then start pretending Ballack outclassed him, refusing to hold your hands up about that being utterly incorrect and then making out he only played great once.

Weird way of trying to make your argument.

Annnnnyway, your opinion on Rice? Mine is that I can’t believe there’s now 110 pages on a good player, and that gb seems so desperate for it to be 111 pages, especially when there’s zero chance of WHU selling at a price we’d pay.
Where did I say Ballack outclassed him?

I would rather pass on Rice due to his ability not matching up with the reported price tag.
 

Andersons Dietician

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This is where I feel many don't see this perspective. Solskjaer has shown favouring the 3 man midfield and having success as witnessed with Herrera, Pogba and Matic. Rice provides the fluidity of Ole opting against the double pivot in favour of more creativity in possession without losing defensive presence in the midfield. Especially in fixtures when the emphasis is on the team to break the opposition down.

Having both Pogba / Bruno occupy central attacking positions could raise the bar for the teams performances.
My perspective I think we would lose massive solidity if we dropped Fred and McT in favour of a single DM being Rice.
I really like 433 as a principal and shape but to me Pogba and Bruno are going to have to massively change how they play. Shaw and Bissaka will need to be more reserved mainly because not once have Pogba or Bruno shown the patience, movement or understanding to play in such a shape with just one semi decent DM covering them Kroos and Modric they are not.

No doubt both are great attacking forces but they get to do so because of the work Fred and McT do covering them and Shaw and Bissaka. One man Rice isn’t going to do this unless lots of things change in the manner we play football with Bruno and Pogba changing what has made them so effective.
 
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Where did I say Ballack outclassed him?

I would rather pass on Rice due to his ability not matching up with the reported price tag.
Well you listed the games where Keane was outclassed or dominated and included...
“Leverkusen inspired by Michael Ballack also knocked us out in the semi finals”
Keane actually easily outclassed Ballack in the minutes he spent on the pitch in those two ties, if we’d had Keane for both, we’d have been in the final.

Agreed on Rice, decent enough player, could be a good addition, although as much chance it could be a Schneiderlin moment as a roaring success, and simply not happening due to price.
 

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Well you listed the games where Keane was outclassed or dominated and included...
“Leverkusen inspired by Michael Ballack also knocked us out in the semi finals”
Keane actually easily outclassed Ballack in the minutes he spent on the pitch in those two ties, if we’d had Keane for both, we’d have been in the final.

Agreed on Rice, decent enough player, could be a good addition, although as much chance it could be a Schneiderlin moment as a roaring success, and simply not happening due to price.
I listed the games where we as a midfield collective struggled which included Keane.

I agree with you on Rice.
 

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The criminal under rating of Keane from some on this forum is utterly bemusing. Keane was an absolute force of nature in midfield and you just do not see players like it anymore. Instead players are shoehorned into defensive or attacking midfielders - Keane was a box to box monster of a player who could pass teams to do death. Listen to players who played against him talk about his qualities. They know far more about football than any of us.

Far too many have slipped into this false notion of him being a sitting midfielder who just kicked folk - sorry, we’re not talking about David fecking Batty here. Lastly, Utd’s record in Europe was not a reflection on Keane - Ferguson by his own admission spent too long trying to play 2 midfielders against 3. He rectified that come 2002 but it still took him a while to get balance right. Again, how this is Keanes fault I’ll never know.
 

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If any player was put down in this thread, it was Joshua Kimmich who at 26 years old is among the very best midfielders in the world. For someone to say Keane was on steroids compared to Kimmich is living in cloud cuckoo land. I would understand if someone made a similar claim regarding Zinedine Zidane who excelled for both club and country and produced in the biggest games in football, but not Keane. And it wouldn't surprise me one bit, if Kimmich goes on to be recognised as a superior player to Roy Keane among the footballing fraternity. Kimmich hasn't even reached his peak yet.

I don't find it difficult to put my biases to one side and actually be objective.
 

JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo

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Keane was a world class player with a winners mentality and determination. He expected more from his teammates and led by example.

I get hes polarizing for his personality but his ability should never be in question.

His positive opinion on Rice has made me take more notice of him to be honest