Declan Rice

[golden_blunder]

I picked the two biggest feckups. Because he told them to pay about half of that, they could have gotten him for a lot less.

So you admit that Fergie gave a valuation and the men above him overpaid?

so why can’t the same be true of Ole? It’s a very strange hill to die on

 

[Oranges038]

So you admit that Fergie gave a valuation and the men above him overpaid?

so why can’t the same be true of Ole? It’s a very strange hill to die on

I was talking about Leeds there. O'Leary said about 11m they went and spunked 22m on him, when they could have gotten him for less.

Failed to address the point directed towards you though. Good stuff.

 

[golden_blunder]

I was talking about Leeds there. O'Leary said about 11m they went and spunked 22m on him, when they could have gotten him for less.

Failed to address the point directed towards you though. Good stuff.

So Leeds money men were incompetent. I fail to see how that was O’Learys fault or how you are tying it back to Ole?

its usual for a manager to give first preference, all the way down to maybe 4 or 5 for their targets. The manager will leave it to the accountants to see if it can be got in budget or not. They may sell players that Ole has already said are not in his plans

you do know that this is how football works right?

ole won’t be the first or last manager to get denied a target and perhaps be given a cheaper alternative. See Jose reactions when he doesn’t get a target.

im failing to see your point here other than general Ole bashing. Carry on

 

[Adnan]

It's well documented that under the current recruitment structure, if Solskjaer for example wants a combative midfielder (Like Rice), then the midfield scouting reports on that sort of a player are looked at by Marcel Bout, who collates all the scout reports, breaks them down and filters them, before passing them onto Mick Court who along with his 4 analysts filter the list further before presenting the final list of names to Solskjaer. And Solskjaer it seems, can't see past the most obvious choice from within our own league.

Also I have to disagree with people who say, Solskjaer doesn't have anything to do with how much money is spent on prospective incomings. Unless some of you think the manager is naive, he will know that Declan Rice from West Ham Utd will blow a huge hole in our transfer budget, similar to what happened with Harry Maguire from Leicester City.

So if Solskjaer has a £100m (net), to spend, then I'm not gonna accept that he wasn't backed, if he blows the majority of it on one player. Arsene Wenger, when he first arrived in England had the right idea when it came to recruitment, hence he signed many players on the cheap that became household names. And he signed alot those players because he along with his staff had vast knowledge of French football. Wenger accepted he couldn't compete with United financially.

And the biggest worry is that in over 2 years, Solskjaer hasn't implemented a style of play at the club where we as a team have shown consistency when it comes to playing 'structured offensive football' with intensity, movement between the lines, whilst maintaining a defensive balance. I keep hearing fans say, we need to upgrade this position and that position and we can challenge for the league. I think without a style of play, I don't believe we will challenge for the league, even with Rice, Kane, Sancho and Varane.

 

[andersj]

can't see past the most obvious choice from within our own league.

But we have only signed two from our own league? AWB and Maguire?

We have signed James, Bruno, Donny, Telles, Cavani, Diallo and Pellistri from other leagues during his time here.

 

[Adnan]

But we have only signed two from our own league? AWB and Maguire?

We have signed James, Bruno, Donny, Telles, Cavani, Diallo and Pellistri from other leagues during his time here.

James is also from our own league and cost similar to what Inter paid for Lautaro Martinez.

Diallo and Pellistri were ratified by Marcel Bout, and were being watched for a number of years by the youth scouts. Diallo for example was being monitored by our scouts since he was 14.

And the rest of your post doesn't have any correlation to my main point which is Solskjaer can't seem to see past players from our own league for huge fees or else where, because I also mentioned Varane.

 

[Ace]

James is also from our own league

Swansea was not in the premier league and James had only made 30 appearances in the championship when we signed him.

 

[Adnan]

Swansea was not in the premier league and James had only made 30 appearances in the championship when we signed him.

The Championship as far as I'm aware is a league within my country.

 

[Oranges038]

So Leeds money men were incompetent. I fail to see how that was O’Learys fault or how you are tying it back to Ole?

its usual for a manager to give first preference, all the way down to maybe 4 or 5 for their targets. The manager will leave it to the accountants to see if it can be got in budget or not. They may sell players that Ole has already said are not in his plans

you do know that this is how football works right?

ole won’t be the first or last manager to get denied a target and perhaps be given a cheaper alternative. See Jose reactions when he doesn’t get a target.

im failing to see your point here other than general Ole bashing. Carry on

No Ole bashing from me. If anything it is you doing it by suggesting he just hands over a list of players and lets the money people deal with the rest.

I think Ole is just focused on players for the team who will fit in at the club. The money is someone else’s job, Ole would have given alternatives too

This is what you originally posted. I suggested that it sounded a bit like Leeds. A manager handing over a list of players and having no idea how much was being paid for them or what wages they were offered.

That is exactly what was happening at Leeds. You think Ole doesn't know how much money is available? Or what he thinks a player is worth and how much he is prepared to spend on that player? You think he just wants a player and doesn't give a shit about the cost? He'd be happy with Rice coming in for 100m and on 250k a week?


And when you mention incompetence, think of all the money Woody and the lads have wasted on transfers and wages on rubbish players in the last 10 years, it makes the Seth Johnson deal look like a bloody bargain.

 

[golden_blunder]

No Ole bashing from me. If anything it is you doing it by suggesting he just hands over a list of players and lets the money people deal with the rest.



This is what you originally posted. I suggested that it sounded a bit like Leeds. A manager handing over a list of players and having no idea how much was being paid for them or what wages they were offered.

That is exactly what was happening at Leeds. You think Ole doesn't know how much money is available? Or what he thinks a player is worth and how much he is prepared to spend on that player? You think he just wants a player and doesn't give a shit about the cost? He'd be happy with Rice coming in for 100m and on 250k a week?


And when you mention incompetence, think of all the money Woody and the lads have wasted on transfers and wages on rubbish players in the last 10 years, it makes the Don Hutchison deal look like a bloody bargain.

I’ll say again, Ole doesn’t get involved in the money side. He probably gives a rough valuation that he wouldn’t pay more than. Other than that, it’s someone else’s job to work out who to deliver on the list according to their budget. It’s a reason why they will have multiple alternatives

 

[DSG]

It's well documented that under the current recruitment structure, if Solskjaer for example wants a combative midfielder (Like Rice), then the midfield scouting reports on that sort of a player are looked at by Marcel Bout, who collates all the scout reports, breaks them down and filters them, before passing them onto Mick Court who along with his 4 analysts filter the list further before presenting the final list of names to Solskjaer. And Solskjaer it seems, can't see past the most obvious choice from within our own league.

Also I have to disagree with people who say, Solskjaer doesn't have anything to do with how much money is spent on prospective incomings. Unless some of you think the manager is naive, he will know that Declan Rice from West Ham Utd will blow a huge hole in our transfer budget, similar to what happened with Harry Maguire from Leicester City.

So if Solskjaer has a £100m (net), to spend, then I'm not gonna accept that he wasn't backed, if he blows the majority of it on one player. Arsene Wenger, when he first arrived in England had the right idea when it came to recruitment, hence he signed many players on the cheap that became household names. And he signed alot those players because he along with his staff had vast knowledge of French football. Wenger accepted he couldn't compete with United financially.

And the biggest worry is that in over 2 years, Solskjaer hasn't implemented a style of play at the club where we as a team have shown consistency when it comes to playing 'structured offensive football' with intensity, movement between the lines, whilst maintaining a defensive balance. I keep hearing fans say, we need to upgrade this position and that position and we can challenge for the league. I think without a style of play, I don't believe we will challenge for the league, even with Rice, Kane, Sancho and Varane.

Cue the Ole out mafia. Great, another thread derailed by this. I click in to a thread on Rice to see if there is news only to find out that 70% of the posts are about Ole.

Mods, any way to manage this?

Rice is not the DM we need, not for 70m anyway...

 

[Oranges038]

I’ll say again, Ole doesn’t get involved in the money side. He probably gives a rough valuation that he wouldn’t pay more than. Other than that, it’s someone else’s job to work out who to deliver on the list according to their budget. It’s a reason why they will have multiple alternatives

I think Ole is just focused on players for the team who will fit in at the club. The money is someone else’s job, Ole would have given alternatives too

He either is or isn't involved in the money end of it. You don't know, you think and probably are the best you can come up with.

 

[andersj]

Diallo and Pellistri were ratified by Marcel Bout, and were being watched for a number of years by the youth scouts.

Yes, but that is the point of having scouts. Dont quite get how that matters? They were signed for the first team, and could have been vetoed by OGS. I would think the same was the case with James.

I also dont quite get how it is not relevant for the claim that «can't see past the most obvious choice from within our own league» that we have only signed two (three by your definition) from our league. And that we have signed more (or at least a similar amount of players) from abroad.

 

[Adnan]

Yes, but that is the point of having scouts. Dont quite get how that matters? They were signed for the first team, and could have been vetoed by OGS. I would think the same was the case with James.

I also dont quite get how it is not relevant for the claim that «can't see past the most obvious choice from within our own league» that we have only signed two (three by your definition) from our league. And that we have signed more (or at least a similar amount of players) from abroad.

Well we spent our entire budget in the summer of 2019 signing 3 players from our own league(s) for around £150m after the manager quite openly stated he wanted to implement a high press similar to Jurgen.

Bruno was the best player in the Portuguese league so another obvious choice.

The rest of the players you mention were either identified by the youth coaching staff or were bought as squad players like Telles for relatively small sums.

Not sure what you're trying to argue here. I'm happy with us signing the likes of Amad Diallo and Pellistri and don't really have a problem with Telles as a back up eventhough I wasn't his biggest fan.

 

[golden_blunder]

He either is or isn't involved in the money end of it. You don't know, you think and probably are the best you can come up with.

I’m saying - read it slowly - other than putting a valuation beside each player on his list, he’s not involved with the financial talks. It’s not his job.
In terms of wages he probably says something like “I see him as amongst the top 3 players at the club”. That’ll give the money men an idea of what they should pay him. Does Ole get involved in the nitty gritty? No. What is so hard to understand?

 

[golden_blunder]

Cue the Ole out mafia. Great, another thread derailed by this. I click in to a thread on Rice to see if there is news only to find out that 70% of the posts are about Ole.

Mods, any way to manage this?

Rice is not the DM we need, not for 70m anyway...

I’m trying to steer people away from that topic and keep the threads on track.

 

[andersj]

Bruno was the best player in the Portuguese league so another obvious choice.

The rest of the players you mention were either identified by the youth coaching staff or were bought as squad players like Telles for relatively small sums.

Not sure what you're trying to argue here. I'm happy with us signing the likes of Amad Diallo and Pellistri and don't really have a problem with Telles as a back up eventhough I wasn't his biggest fan.

I’m not saying you were against them. That is not my point.

My point is that we do not only sign players from the PL (or England for that matter). I agree that most of the players we sign are «obvious players» (like Bruno and maybe even Donny). Dont quite know why that is an issue. I also dont quite get why it is an issue or matter that «the rest» was identified by our scouts. That can only be a good thing in my opinion.

 

[Adnan]

I’m not saying you were against them. That is not my point.

My point is that we do not only sign players from the PL (or England for that matter). I agree that most of the players we sign are «obvious players» (like Bruno and maybe even Donny). Dont quite know why that is an issue. I also dont quite get why it is an issue or matter that «the rest» was identified by our scouts. That can only be a good thing in my opinion.

I know we don't only sign players from within our shores. The academy and u23s is clear evidence to that, even without looking at the first team.

My point is simple, the players we've signed under Solskjaer have been costly when it's come to improving the first team when it could be argued that the style of play he spoke about implementing, could've been implemented by players who cost considerably less and were also far more suited to the style of play in question.

 

[Bebestation]

I remember judging Declan Rice on the player I saw play for England.

He didn’t seem creative enough against teams England were always likely to dominate and at times did look like a Centre back playing in midfield whilst still trying to find his feet in a new position.

However, I’ve started to kind of like the idea of him more and more whenever I watch the captaincy style performances he puts out for West Ham when they are put on the back seat having to absorb pressure.

It’s kind of what I see in him, the ability to absorb a central pressure - make you feel like you have 3 CB’s when you need but also feels like you always have 3 midfielders as well.

It’s the position he plays - it feels like a young captain playing at the heart of a United team who is just going to make those opposition attackers finding a bit more harder than it ever was.

As others have said - it’s because of him that Mctominay gets to be this box to box player. It’s because of him that Pogba can play as a LCM in a midfield 3 along side Bruno if He decides to stay. VDB may play on the top of the midfield 3 and make a fantastic 4. Rice maybe what Garner needs to be more our deep lying playmaker or give that extra stability to another creative attacking CM In Hannibal. Fred can play and press whoever the hell he wants etc.

Rice just gives me this essence of a stability that I have really start to crave. He may not be the creative one, but he might be the one who holds a lot of these creative players together.

 

[bosnian_red]

I remember judging Declan Rice on the player I saw play for England.

He didn’t seem creative enough against teams England were always likely to dominate and at times did look like a Centre back playing in midfield whilst still trying to find his feet in a new position.

However, I’ve started to kind of like the idea of him more and more whenever I watch the captaincy style performances he puts out for West Ham when they are put on the back seat having to absorb pressure.

It’s kind of what I see in him, the ability to absorb a central pressure - make you feel like you have 3 CB’s when you need but also feels like you always have 3 midfielders as well.

It’s the position he plays - it feels like a young captain playing at the heart of a United team who is just going to make those opposition attackers finding a bit more harder than it ever was.

As others have said - it’s because of him that Mctominay gets to be this box to box player. It’s because of him that Pogba can play as a LCM in a midfield 3 along side Bruno if He decides to stay. VDB may play on the top of the midfield 3 and make a fantastic 4. Rice maybe what Garner needs to be more our deep lying playmaker or give that extra stability to another creative attacking CM In Hannibal. Fred can play and press whoever the hell he wants etc.

Rice just gives me this essence of a stability that I have really start to crave. He may not be the creative one, but he might be the one who holds a lot of these creative players together.

Yep. Like the Casemiro behind Modric and Kroos. No doubting we need the controller. But that player can't do his thing without the holding midfielder either.

 

[Posh Red]

Haven’t watched him much at centre back but if he is any good there this could make more sense. Especially if we don’t have the budget to address all areas

 

[Cantonagotmehere]

I remember judging Declan Rice on the player I saw play for England.

He didn’t seem creative enough against teams England were always likely to dominate and at times did look like a Centre back playing in midfield whilst still trying to find his feet in a new position.

However, I’ve started to kind of like the idea of him more and more whenever I watch the captaincy style performances he puts out for West Ham when they are put on the back seat having to absorb pressure.

It’s kind of what I see in him, the ability to absorb a central pressure - make you feel like you have 3 CB’s when you need but also feels like you always have 3 midfielders as well.

It’s the position he plays - it feels like a young captain playing at the heart of a United team who is just going to make those opposition attackers finding a bit more harder than it ever was.

As others have said - it’s because of him that Mctominay gets to be this box to box player. It’s because of him that Pogba can play as a LCM in a midfield 3 along side Bruno if He decides to stay. VDB may play on the top of the midfield 3 and make a fantastic 4. Rice maybe what Garner needs to be more our deep lying playmaker or give that extra stability to another creative attacking CM In Hannibal. Fred can play and press whoever the hell he wants etc.

Rice just gives me this essence of a stability that I have really start to crave. He may not be the creative one, but he might be the one who holds a lot of these creative players together.

Great post. I really want him at United.

 

[RedorDead21]

He actually does remind me of Keane.

(of course even Roy said Rice reminds him of himself)

They are quite similar in a lot of ways. I think it hasn’t been considered enough what a great leader Rice is. He plays with a similar controlled aggression that also reminds me of Roy (although Roy sometimes lost control!).

It’s not necessary to compare their overall quality. But the type of player Roy was, people would complain he’s nothing special if around today...

Oh god this is like Merson declaring Arsenal “can now play Ozil again” after signing Partey. I guarantee he hadn’t seen him play 4 full matches when he announced this. But he was black and athletic and reminded him of an essien or similar. Now we have a white guy who has good physique and gets around the pitch. It can’t pass for shit. Roy Keane?

 

[Godfather]

Does he bring anything to the table McT doesn't? Honest question.

 

[Judas]

Oh god this is like Merson declaring Arsenal “can now play Ozil again” after signing Partey. I guarantee he hadn’t seen him play 4 full matches when he announced this. But he was black and athletic and reminded him of an essien or similar. Now we have a white guy who has good physique and gets around the pitch. It can’t pass for shit. Roy Keane?

Didn't literally Roy Keane make the comparison?

 

[Posh Red]

Why does everyone say he can’t pass? He’s a decent passer of the ball

 

[Mickeza]

Oh god this is like Merson declaring Arsenal “can now play Ozil again” after signing Partey. I guarantee he hadn’t seen him play 4 full matches when he announced this. But he was black and athletic and reminded him of an essien or similar. Now we have a white guy who has good physique and gets around the pitch. It can’t pass for shit. Roy Keane?

Wtf does this lazy can’t pass for shit bollocks come from?

 

[Drizzle]

Does he bring anything to the table McT doesn't? Honest question.

An understanding of how to play defensive midfield.

 

[Adnan]

Yep. Like the Casemiro behind Modric and Kroos. No doubting we need the controller. But that player can't do his thing without the holding midfielder either.

They both can't do what you're suggesting without 'structured offensive play'

 

[Judas]

Rice not being able to pass has snowballed so massively, it's quite bizarre. It's practically a meme at this point.

 

[Mickeza]

Rice has a higher pass completion, more key passes per game and more completed long balls per game than both Bissouma and N’Didi. He’s also younger than both. It’s almost like people just see his height and nationality and assume he can’t pass without watching him play.

 

[Posh Red]

Rice has a higher pass completion, more key passes per game and more completed long balls per game than both Bissouma and N’Didi. He’s also younger than both. It’s almost like people just see his height and nationality and assume he can’t pass without watching him play.

I think that’s exactly what’s happening

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

Rice has a higher pass completion, more key passes per game and more completed long balls per game than both Bissouma and N’Didi. He’s also younger than both. It’s almost like people just see his height and nationality and assume he can’t pass without watching him play.

Fair points. Bissouma would make sense if we blow our budget on Sancho and Varane.

 

[Adnan]

Luckhurst in the below piece reports that Rice will cost more than Sancho.

He also goes on-to mention Ryan Gravenberch, Eduardo Camavinga and Bissouma as possible targets

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-kante-20712449.amp?__twitter_impression=true

 

[DSG]

I remember judging Declan Rice on the player I saw play for England.

He didn’t seem creative enough against teams England were always likely to dominate and at times did look like a Centre back playing in midfield whilst still trying to find his feet in a new position.

However, I’ve started to kind of like the idea of him more and more whenever I watch the captaincy style performances he puts out for West Ham when they are put on the back seat having to absorb pressure.

It’s kind of what I see in him, the ability to absorb a central pressure - make you feel like you have 3 CB’s when you need but also feels like you always have 3 midfielders as well.

It’s the position he plays - it feels like a young captain playing at the heart of a United team who is just going to make those opposition attackers finding a bit more harder than it ever was.

As others have said - it’s because of him that Mctominay gets to be this box to box player. It’s because of him that Pogba can play as a LCM in a midfield 3 along side Bruno if He decides to stay. VDB may play on the top of the midfield 3 and make a fantastic 4. Rice maybe what Garner needs to be more our deep lying playmaker or give that extra stability to another creative attacking CM In Hannibal. Fred can play and press whoever the hell he wants etc.

Rice just gives me this essence of a stability that I have really start to crave. He may not be the creative one, but he might be the one who holds a lot of these creative players together.

Your first assessment is the most accurate. He would get throttled by a quality midfield, particularly in CL. He is a CB at heart, the next generation of Eric Dier and Phil Jones, CBs who have just enough to deputize as a DM. I agree that at West Ham, it works, but he’s far too stiff to deal with a guy like Frankie DeJong, Valverde and Kroos, Kimmich and Goretzka.

I get the idea, and agree with, the stability thing. Chelsea just won the CL withJorginho and Kante, two Uber quick holding midfielders who can pass and drive forward as well. I mean, how different is Rice from Darren Gibson?

 

[Godfather]

Luckhurst in the below piece reports that Rice will cost more than Sancho.

He also goes on-to mention Ryan Gravenberch, Eduardo Camavinga and Bissouma as possible targets

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...-kante-20712449.amp?__twitter_impression=true

I mean West Ham can't be serious here can they?

 

[Adnan]

I mean West Ham can't be serious here can they?

I think they're a bit more serious than Leicester and Palace regarding their player.

 

[Adnan]

I wouldn't mind Rice if we can get for around £30-£35m, but that ain't gonna happen. But signing him for a minimum £90m (per Matt Law) would be bad business IMO.

 

[tomaldinho1]

It's well documented that under the current recruitment structure, if Solskjaer for example wants a combative midfielder (Like Rice), then the midfield scouting reports on that sort of a player are looked at by Marcel Bout, who collates all the scout reports, breaks them down and filters them, before passing them onto Mick Court who along with his 4 analysts filter the list further before presenting the final list of names to Solskjaer. And Solskjaer it seems, can't see past the most obvious choice from within our own league.

Also I have to disagree with people who say, Solskjaer doesn't have anything to do with how much money is spent on prospective incomings. Unless some of you think the manager is naive, he will know that Declan Rice from West Ham Utd will blow a huge hole in our transfer budget, similar to what happened with Harry Maguire from Leicester City.

So if Solskjaer has a £100m (net), to spend, then I'm not gonna accept that he wasn't backed, if he blows the majority of it on one player. Arsene Wenger, when he first arrived in England had the right idea when it came to recruitment, hence he signed many players on the cheap that became household names. And he signed alot those players because he along with his staff had vast knowledge of French football. Wenger accepted he couldn't compete with United financially.

And the biggest worry is that in over 2 years, Solskjaer hasn't implemented a style of play at the club where we as a team have shown consistency when it comes to playing 'structured offensive football' with intensity, movement between the lines, whilst maintaining a defensive balance. I keep hearing fans say, we need to upgrade this position and that position and we can challenge for the league. I think without a style of play, I don't believe we will challenge for the league, even with Rice, Kane, Sancho and Varane.

The first part on transfers is actually how I think we should be run. I don't think a manager should pick players, they should be a Head Coach first and foremost and be mostly judged on how the team play + results. Ole should identify areas of weakness and the transfer committee will provide options for those roles. Ole doesn't have any influence other than saying 'yes' or 'no' to a player - he can get involved to help persuade the player like he did with VdB but that should be the limit of his input. I'm happy with this for Ole and for any future managers.

The last para is where the worry is. What is our identity on the pitch - where is the pressing that Ole promised on day 1? Modern day football for me has become more and more focused on the midfield - you can't just go route one anymore in the PL. This then ties back into the first point as, if Ole is not a hands on coach and he's also not that involved in transfers, what exactly is he doing other than keeping players happy and doing pressers. That's not a provocative comment and obviously he does a lot more behind the scenes but the coaching aspect is where it's so abundantly clear there is a disconnect. Buying players isn't the answer, get the setup right first - then make one or two big signings to compete.

 

[Adnan]

The first part on transfers is actually how I think we should be run. I don't think a manager should pick players, they should be a Head Coach first and foremost and be mostly judged on how the team play + results. Ole should identify areas of weakness and the transfer committee will provide options for those roles. Ole doesn't have any influence other than saying 'yes' or 'no' to a player - he can get involved to help persuade the player like he did with VdB but that should be the limit of his input. I'm happy with this for Ole and for any future managers.

The last para is where the worry is. What is our identity on the pitch - where is the pressing that Ole promised on day 1? Modern day football for me has become more and more focused on the midfield - you can't just go route one anymore in the PL. This then ties back into the first point as, if Ole is not a hands on coach and he's also not that involved in transfers, what exactly is he doing other than keeping players happy and doing pressers. That's not a provocative comment and obviously he does a lot more behind the scenes but the coaching aspect is where it's so abundantly clear there is a disconnect. Buying players isn't the answer, get the setup right first - then make one or two big signings to compete.

This will be my last post on the subject because I don't want to overly contribute to derailing the thread.

After spending a vast amount of money I would at the very least expect the manager to have implemented the plan he spoke about implementing almost 3 years ago. But sadly I still don't see us implementing a high press with counter pressing capabilities with little movement between the lines. I fear our progress is like a house of cards that could collapse easily if the likes of Klopp and Tuchel hit their stride. But I'm not afraid in the long run because I fully believe a experienced coach who understands the modern requirements will take us to the next level. I hope it's Solskjaer but I'm very doubtful.