Declan Rice

MadDogg

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We need a defensive mid in the same mould as Kante, someone who can cover the ground quick and is technical. Kante and pogba seemed to work well in a midfield 2 for France. The guy I can think of that would be closest to Kante is camavinga for Rennes, he’d be perfect, he’s on the same level as wan bissaka when it comes to tackling.
Kante and Pogba don't really play in a midfield two for France. Technically they line up that way, but realistically they always have another hard working central midfielder supposedly named on the wing but in reality he ends up playing more like a box-to-box midfielder. And that's against international teams, who are mostly weaker opposition than what we face in the league and the tempo is normally slower as well.
 
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OrcaFat

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We primary need midfielders who can drop deep and collect the ball off the defenders. Roy Keane did this late on in his career and I feel McTominay hides and Fred gives our CBs heart attacks so we will never control games if we can't have that dude to offload the ball to.
Yeah that’s a big part of the problem.
 

Andersons Dietician

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We primary need midfielders who can drop deep and collect the ball off the defenders. Roy Keane did this late on in his career and I feel McTominay hides and Fred gives our CBs heart attacks so we will never control games if we can't have that dude to offload the ball to.
Combined with this though we also need Bruno to start showing for the ball more so the guys in the pivot or Shaw/Bissaka actually have an option to pass the ball to to progress play.
 

theklr

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This signing scares me if we are going to pay 70-90M out of this summer’s budget
Well, if we have 70-90 M available after getting a RW, CB and backup RB, i have no problem with that!
 

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Obviously the price quoted is crazy and he isn't worth that but a really underrated part of what he offers is simply that he is tall and very good aggressively and positionally. To be honest having someone that can help defensively and offensively with set pieces is something that we desperately need right now. I don't think his passing is as bad as made out to be either. He ain't Carrick but we have to take into account that he plays for West Ham when we are comparing him to others who play for better teams. I actually think his technique is very good and thus he can be moulded to be a hell of a lot better in that regard than he is currently, although never being truly elite. I mean do we really think that he is any worse than someone like Ndidi in that regard? I personally don't see it.

Anyway this ain't happening because of the price but I'd love him here. However if we were a well run club then someone like Camavinga would be a cheaper and potentially just as good option. Bellingham is the one that we need to tapping up right now for a move in a couple of years.
 

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I don’t think our problem vs Villareal was a DM or a no 6 and the Villareal game was a prime example of another draw that we had a lot this season. Signing a no 6 would be great but it’s something we can hold for next summer assume if we don’t have the money after signing Sancho and a top CB. Beside, there is one is coming soon, James Garner.
You are saying that on the base of Scott having one if not the best games of the season. More often it's a shit show, we need a CDM this summer, or otherwise you can write off next season on September the 1st.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

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You are saying that on the base of Scott having one if not the best games of the season. More often it's a shit show, we need a CDM this summer, or otherwise you can write off next season on September the 1st.
If you read the post again, I said the Villareal game was a prime example of ''another draw'' that we had a lot this season. So I wasn't saying that on the base of Scott having one if not the best games of the season because we had 11 draws in the league this season and those draws came from similar issue as the Villareal game. Was CDM the reason why we had those 11 draws?
 

Drizzle

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Combined with this though we also need Bruno to start showing for the ball more so the guys in the pivot or Shaw/Bissaka actually have an option to pass the ball to to progress play.
Bruno shows quite a lot. The problem is he's not good at holding the ball in tight situations. I think he knows this and it's one of the reasons why he's constantly trying unlikely first-time flicks and giving it away all the time.
 

AndyMUFC

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The price is ridiculous. He’s alright but are we not better off spending it elsewhere?

Problem is we’re not gonna spend 80-90m on each signing so if we’re gonna spend that I’d rather it be on someone else.
 

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If we are going to spend 90m on a DM in this kind of market, I'd expect to get a prime Keane or Vieira, but definitely not Rice.
 

Banana Republic

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People on here vastly overrating Rice.
He’s progressed from being a really promising DM prospect, to becoming an established and important part of WHU’s midfield, but he’s far from being a top level, or world class DM.
Although they rate him, most WH fans rate Tomas Soucek as having a far bigger influence on their improved performances this last season.
No doubt Rice would be a useful player for us and a good signing, but he isn’t worth anything near the the expected price tag.
We’ll see in the Euros how far he’s developed.
 

croadyman

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If we are going to spend 90m on a DM in this kind of market, I'd expect to get a prime Keane or Vieira, but definitely not Rice.
Yeah the trouble is Utd would have to be willing to sacrifice either CB/RW in order to bring in a top class DM which we shouldn't have to do but due to our awful yankee leech owners there is no choice in the matter. We are never going to get control of the midfield in these games until the club see common sense and prioritise this key position.
 

jackal&hyde

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We primary need midfielders who can drop deep and collect the ball off the defenders. Roy Keane did this late on in his career and I feel McTominay hides and Fred gives our CBs heart attacks so we will never control games if we can't have that dude to offload the ball to.
:lol: :lol:
 

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Obviously the price quoted is crazy and he isn't worth that but a really underrated part of what he offers is simply that he is tall and very good aggressively and positionally. To be honest having someone that can help defensively and offensively with set pieces is something that we desperately need right now. I don't think his passing is as bad as made out to be either. He ain't Carrick but we have to take into account that he plays for West Ham when we are comparing him to others who play for better teams. I actually think his technique is very good and thus he can be moulded to be a hell of a lot better in that regard than he is currently, although never being truly elite. I mean do we really think that he is any worse than someone like Ndidi in that regard? I personally don't see it.

Anyway this ain't happening because of the price but I'd love him here. However if we were a well run club then someone like Camavinga would be a cheaper and potentially just as good option. Bellingham is the one that we need to tapping up right now for a move in a couple of years.
sounds like a great CB prospect.

In games when they man mark Pogba and Bruno, can Rice be relied upon to receive the ball from CB on the half turn and get our advanced players involved?
 

jackal&hyde

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sounds like a great CB prospect.

In games when they man mark Pogba and Bruno, can Rice be relied upon to receive the ball from CB on the half turn and get our advanced players involved?
It could be argued that with Maguire and another confident ball playing CB like Varane we would have 2 deep lying creators from those positions and the DM would need only to shield and keep it simple in possession. A bit of a role reversal where you get 2 players capable of doing that rather then just the one mid.
 

RedRonaldo

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Prime Keane or Vieira would be £150m plus in today’s money.
In todays market, no one would cost 150m plus as no club could afford that.
 

bosnian_red

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If we could sign 2 players this summer, it would without a doubt be Sancho and Rice 2nd. By far. CB is a need but actually getting a defensive midfielder would help loads. I mean, look at Rodri or Fernandinho at City. They make John Stones look like a good centerback ffs. Lindelof is serviceable in that we would do a lot more as a team if we signed Sancho and Rice than if we signed Sancho and Varane.
 

RedRonaldo

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Keane to us broke transfer record shortly after Shearer to Blackburn.
Well, that was 30 years ago, and in England for a while only. Comparatively the fee is still far off from other top FW or AM at other country.

For example, Keane moved from Forest to United for 3.75m in 1993. At around same period, Papin went to Milan for 10m in 1992, Vialli went to Juventus for 12m in 1992, Lentini went to Milan for 13m in 1992 too. That's how big the difference between top FW/AM and DM is.

Even if you look at the football world today, highest fee for any player transfer is Neymar (222m), Mbappe (180m), Coutinho (145m), Felix (126m), Griezmann (120m). They are all FW or AM. The most expensive DM? Maybe De Jong (75m) or Rodri (70m). Not even close.
 
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OrcaFat

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Well, that was 30 years ago, and in England for a while only. Comparatively the fee is still far off from other top FW or AM at other country.

For example, Keane moved from Forest to United for 3.75m in 1993. At around same period, Papin went to Milan for 10m in 1992, Vialli went to Juventus for 12m in 1992, Lentini went to Milan for 13m in 1992 too. That's how big the difference between top FW/AM and DM is.

Even if you look at the football world today, highest fee for any player transfer is Neymar (222m), Mbappe (180m), Coutinho (145m), Felix (126m), Griezmann (120m). They are all FW or AM. The most expensive DM? Maybe De Jong (75m).
He went for more than Alan Shearer for gawd sake.
 

RedRonaldo

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He went for more than Alan Shearer for gawd sake.
And it still far less from other top FW/AM in the game at that time, why all the denial?
No to mention the best you could do is to give an example from 30 years ago in England only where market is totally different and irrelevant from today. Why not go back to 100 years ago then while you are at it?
 

OrcaFat

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And it still far less from other top FW/AM in the game at that time, why all the denial?
No to mention the best you could do is to give an example from 30 years ago in England only where market is totally different and irrelevant from today. Why not go back to 100 years ago then while you are at it?
Go back as far as de Jong, since you mentioned him, peak Keane and peak Vieira were a lot better than him. You could not buy them for £90m now.
 

golden_blunder

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Rice has as much potential as a young Keane at Forest did. The difference is that a young Keane was a box to box player who scored goals as well whereas rice is purely a DM.
keane likes him. So do I
 

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Go back as far as de Jong, since you mentioned him, peak Keane and peak Vieira were a lot better than him. You could not buy them for £90m now.
You could. De Jong cost 65 millions and fact is no onw is breaking the bank for players who don't help with bringing goals unless they are directly going to prevent conceding them e.g. a CB. As important a combative midfielder is they aren't enough to break the bank for.
 

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Go back as far as de Jong, since you mentioned him, peak Keane and peak Vieira were a lot better than him. You could not buy them for £90m now.
I'm sorry, but is your argument here, Declan Rice is peak Keane or Vieira? Or am I misunderstanding
 

OrcaFat

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I'm sorry, but is your argument here, Declan Rice is peak Keane or Vieira? Or am I misunderstanding
No, I think you got the wrong end of the stick! Rice is nowhere near those guys. (But I don’t think he is far off what Keane was when we signed him for a British record fee.)

I was refuting the idea that £90m could buy Keane or Vieira at their peaks (who were both way better than Rice). The fact that £90m is too much for Rice doesn’t mean you can expect the quality of a peak Keane or a peak Vieira for that money. They would both cost much more.

(It’s also not the case that strikers are always worth more. We broke the British transfer record to buy Rio.)

You have your Mbappes, Neymar, going back Ronaldo. Sure these guys cost even more than prime Keane and Vieira but those are the absolute mega signings. I argued that Keane and Vieira would have cost at least what Kane will cost. Kane is very far from being in the Ronaldo class, he is more in the Shearer bracket and, as I previously said, Keane cost more than him when they were each sold at similar stages of their careers.

Players like Keane and Vieira don’t come along too often so you can’t say “if I’m spending £90m I expect prime Keane”. If you want an outstanding young midfielder who will likely improve and go on to be one of the best of his generation, it will cost a pretty penny (even if he will never be Roy Keane).

There may be an argument that Rice is not very good and will not improve but I wouldn’t pay too much attention to that, I don’t think.
 

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Who is harder to replace for West Ham: Rice or Lingard? May be they already lined up an extremely talented French/Spanish DM as replacement for Declan? Lingard is harder to replicate, I guess.
 

Lash

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No, I think you got the wrong end of the stick! Rice is nowhere near those guys. (But I don’t think he is far off what Keane was when we signed him for a British record fee.)

I was refuting the idea that £90m could buy Keane or Vieira at their peaks (who were both way better than Rice). The fact that £90m is too much for Rice doesn’t mean you can expect the quality of a peak Keane or a peak Vieira for that money. They would both cost much more.

(It’s also not the case that strikers are always worth more. We broke the British transfer record to buy Rio.)

You have your Mbappes, Neymar, going back Ronaldo. Sure these guys cost even more than prime Keane and Vieira but those are the absolute mega signings. I argued that Keane and Vieira would have cost at least what Kane will cost. Kane is very far from being in the Ronaldo class, he is more in the Shearer bracket and, as I previously said, Keane cost more than him when they were each sold at similar stages of their careers.

Players like Keane and Vieira don’t come along too often so you can’t say “if I’m spending £90m I expect prime Keane”. If you want an outstanding young midfielder who will likely improve and go on to be one of the best of his generation, it will cost a pretty penny (even if he will never be Roy Keane).

There may be an argument that Rice is not very good and will not improve but I wouldn’t pay too much attention to that, I don’t think.
Sorry, my mistake! Think I got your point now.
 

OrcaFat

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You could. De Jong cost 65 millions and fact is no onw is breaking the bank for players who don't help with bringing goals unless they are directly going to prevent conceding them e.g. a CB. As important a combative midfielder is they aren't enough to break the bank for.
CMs are arguably as important as any position in the team. If you control the midfield you control the game. It’s often said games are won and lost in midfield.

I think Rice will be sold sooner or later and his price will be whatever someone (could be us but maybe another club) is willing to pay. It will be not far off the £90m figure people keep talking about.

Not fair is it? But that’s the reality.
 

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If we could sign 2 players this summer, it would without a doubt be Sancho and Rice 2nd. By far. CB is a need but actually getting a defensive midfielder would help loads. I mean, look at Rodri or Fernandinho at City. They make John Stones look like a good centerback ffs. Lindelof is serviceable in that we would do a lot more as a team if we signed Sancho and Rice than if we signed Sancho and Varane.
I thought getting a proper CD would help the midfield . May be my view is different.
 

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CMs are arguably as important as any position in the team. If you control the midfield you control the game. It’s often said games are won and lost in midfield.

I think Rice will be sold sooner or later and his price will be whatever someone (could be us but maybe another club) is willing to pay. It will be not far off the £90m figure people keep talking about.

Not fair is it? But that’s the reality.
Nah. Only one CM has ever cost near that amount and that's Pogba. Teams reserve their huge spends for match winners. The most expensive transfers have few CM in the top 10. You think top teams just stopped buying them? Control is overrated. Chelsea didn't control the game in the CL final. The most important positions will always be attack as that's how you score points. Buy hitting the net. Liverpool have meh CM but created one of the great recent teams. Real ain't been the same since Bale and mostly Ronaldo fell off but they got the same midfielders
 

OrcaFat

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Nah. Only one CM has ever cost near that amount and that's Pogba. Teams reserve their huge spends for match winners. The most expensive transfers have few CM in the top 10. You think top teams just stopped buying them? Control is overrated. Chelsea didn't control the game in the CL final. The most important positions will always be attack as that's how you score points. Buy hitting the net. Liverpool have meh CM but created one of the great recent teams. Real ain't been the same since Bale and mostly Ronaldo fell off but they got the same midfielders
We’ll see what he goes for soon enough.
 

RedRonaldo

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Go back as far as de Jong, since you mentioned him, peak Keane and peak Vieira were a lot better than him. You could not buy them for £90m now.
Well lets just say, the the best player and most expensive player today are Mbappe and Haaland, and most top clubs would struggle to even spend 120m on them in this particular market. Why do you think top DM today would worth well over 90m? Not to mention Rice is not a top world class DM yet, far from it.
 
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RedRonaldo

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CMs are arguably as important as any position in the team. If you control the midfield you control the game. It’s often said games are won and lost in midfield.

I think Rice will be sold sooner or later and his price will be whatever someone (could be us but maybe another club) is willing to pay. It will be not far off the £90m figure people keep talking about.

Not fair is it? But that’s the reality.
We won many titles and trophies under Fergie with rather "average" midfield, but brilliant attack and defence. Yes it is still an important position but clubs normally won't break the bank to pay for them as compared to those top attacking players. You can value them as high as you want but nobody will pay that much for them. Just go check top 50 transfer ever, majority of them high up the list are attackers (FW/WF/AM), not DM.
 
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SinNombre

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Carrick was the best player on a Spurs team that finished 5th twice in a row. And we paid 14m for him.

That’s likely 50m today. If the claim is Rice is West Ham’s best player (debatable), 50m would be an appropriate fee.