Declan Rice

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VorZakone

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Can't say I noticed him. Literally didn't hear his name once in the 1st half.
 

Majima

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I feel that is simply because of his on the ball ability. People want a carrick there.

Rice is about central positioning and blocking of the opposition centrally - support to the players behind and in front of him; ie the CBand and the attacking CM.


I just think what he actually does isn’t as easy to find as people think - and people tend to bring up players that play the CDM role in a different way.

I don’t believe he is worth the west ham price though.
I think being an absolute rock in front of the defence is underestimated. It's the kind of thing that's hard to see. Same as when Carrick used to block off passing lanes for fun, and everyone was wondering what he was good for defensively. What I like the most about him, is the fact he's not steaming into challenges, he's just quietly in the right place at the right time. Croatia didn't bother trying to attack through the centre after a while, which says it all. You can see the confidence he brings to others around him too. I think he's a magic player.
 

Bebestation

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I think being an absolute rock in front of the defence is underestimated. It's the kind of thing that's hard to see. Same as when Carrick used to block off passing lanes for fun, and everyone was wondering what he was good for defensively. What I like the most about him, is the fact he's not steaming into challenges, he's just quietly in the right place at the right time. Croatia didn't bother trying to attack through the centre after a while, which says it all. You can see the confidence he brings to others around him too. I think he's a magic player.
Yeah I mean he is constantly just reading the game a step before a lot of the players.

I was keeping an eye on what he did - and what he did was not really with the football but it was the way he was making creative decisions harder for the opposition simply because Rice was there.

Croatia didn’t have a chance centrally because Rice was shielding the 2 CB’s like a third one.

Croatia had to play wide because of him - and even when they bypassed Trippier, Rice was there as a cover LB instead of the CB’s being taken on with freedom or being expanded by having to react to the attackers.

I do wish he was a bit better on the ball - but ultimately that’s not what he got turned to a CDM in my eyes, it’s his constant positioning to shield the danger.

It gives England a freedom to play but even more - an absolute shape to the team tactically.
As great as Mount and Phillips were - they were all over the place positively because of Rice. Without him they would likely be all over the place a bit more negatively and open to an opposition penetration.


I feel our need for deep lying playmaker is there - but that needs to be decided by the future and ability of players like Pogba and in particularly Garner. Replacing Matic for the rock of positioning and predicting danger is something I’d be happy with Rice in the team because again - he would really give us that shape. That shape that gives our fullbacks the ability to go up. The ability for our cms to play like cam etc.
 

Highfather_24

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Surprised at the lack of comparison to Matic. Very similar in style of play. Matic is probably a bit better on the ball.
 

andersj

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Surprised at the lack of comparison to Matic. Very similar in style of play. Matic is probably a bit better on the ball.
In my opinion Matic ability as a defender is very overrated. Looked good when he player infront of a very good defence in a defensive side and next to Kante in a very good organized team. Really not been able to protect the defence at Man Utd.

Lacks positional awareness (became very evident when he started losing mobility), and would not sense danger during a bank robbery.

In terms of «style», how they move and their appereance (tall and abit lanky maybe), I see your point.
 

Adam-Utd

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Last year I bought a bike. Nothing spectacular i paid around £1000. It was nice It was going well, but I wanted more, so i bought lights, better tyres, elektronic horn, more comfortable grips, carrier, counter etc. I paid for those around the same amount as I paid for the bike. My girlfriend decided to make my a surprise and arranged some bike trip for us. 350 km for 4 days, she bought a tent and all needed stuff.
The problem Was, that i ordered good chain lock but unfortunately there was some problem with delivery and i did not get It on time #sadface

So i bought some cheap one just to have sth and be able to go for that trip.

I had everything needed to ride on that bike, have fun and do what that trip was all about.

Unfortunately during 2nd night someone cut my cheap wire and stole my bike…

So the thing is even if I had everything i needed for moving forward which seemed like a main thing, i did not have that proper chain lock that would scared thiefs and forced them to leave my bike alone, the thing that is not needed at all to ride a bike but still without It i could not ride because i did not have my bike anymore.
It does almost nothing just „is there” but when someone sees that they move away to try they luck elsewhere.

This is why even if Rice does a little in play building his presence where It should be without even touching the ball forces opponents to try different approach.

his is for other midfielders what Wan Bissaka is for Sterling, makes them uncomfortable playing what they are used to and forcing them to try something different what is not their A Game so there is a great chance they not gonna have a good idea what to do. Rice by just being where they want to create sth makes them change their plan and move the ball from the centre to left or right where having 2 great defensive full backs like Shaw and Wan Bissaka makes creating chances a little bit more difficult. Thats why even if It looks like he is doing nothing in opponents minds there is a big brick wall in the center of the pitch and It will be easier to go around.

going for next season without proper DM who just sits there will be like my trip, stupid and only waiting for sth wrong to happen.
McT and Fred are all over the place and are weakest links to move the ball closer to our goal.

We need someone who will be like that finger just mm away from your nose almost touching It but without any contact making you very uncomfortable.
This is what only his positioning mean to the team. If you add that he is also quite good at making tackles and not a bad passer with hammer of a shot It looks like a good idea to bring him to our team. Maybe he is not worth 70-90 mln that WHU would want, but right now there are not many players able to play a DM role on their own, and when there is small number of things around their price is skyrocketing.

you can buy some special limited 20$ bills for thousands and thousands of dollars because there is not many of them availabe, even if It is just 20$ Bill.
There are not many proper DM at that age with that level of maturity and understanding of the game…
The issue is, this bike isn't a fecking rolls royce like the price tag.
 

Nori-

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I'm not going to lie and say I've watched a lot of Declan Rice. Don't really know too much about him.

Without being biased can anyone actually confirm he's as good as people are saying/his value suggests? Could he do a Kante/Fabinho level of work for us?

Or is this just a case of another English talent over priced/hyped?
 

Bebestation

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I'm not going to lie and say I've watched a lot of Declan Rice. Don't really know too much about him.

Without being biased can anyone actually confirm he's as good as people are saying/his value suggests? Could he do a Kante/Fabinho level of work for us?

Or is this just a case of another English talent over priced/hyped?
He is overpriced. However I also feel like the players that get mentioned as what we need or should target as alternatives play a different style of CDM football than Rice does. Ultimately it depends on what Ole decides we need because Rice seems quite a specialist player in my opinion - ie he has certain weaknesses (like his passing ability) but his strengths are also not particularly easy to find (leadership positional shielding ability of both the defensive and midfield area).
 

sullydnl

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I'm not going to lie and say I've watched a lot of Declan Rice. Don't really know too much about him.

Without being biased can anyone actually confirm he's as good as people are saying/his value suggests? Could he do a Kante/Fabinho level of work for us?

Or is this just a case of another English talent over priced/hyped?
Depends on what his value is. There's a tweet quoting his price as 100m on the previous page, which few players on the planet are worth. So if that's the price then he isn't even remotely near it. But I don't think anyone actually believes he'll ultimately be sold for that much.

He's good enough to be a DM in a top side whose system suits that sort of DM. And because he's that good, just 22 years old, English, a leader and apparently quite professional off the pitch too (he's said he'll have his first ever pint if England win the Euros), he will inevitably go to one of the top English sides for a big fee, because he's quite a safe signing in a specialist position. And I think he'll justify his large fee over the long run for whichever side he ends up at.

The questions are a) which of the top teams need that sort of DM and b) when he'll be available for a price that one of the top English sides deems reasonable enough to bite.

I don't think he'll be available at a reasonable price this summer, so my guess is he'll stay where he is for now. As for whether he's what we need, it's hard to know. Our midfield is a bit of a conundrum, especially with uncertainty over Pogba's future.
 

Highfather_24

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His accurate price tag would be something around 50M. Anything above 60M+ is robbery.

Similar thing happened with Maguire with people being like : "Just pay the money ffs". But its not his fault we payed 80M for him when he is a 60M player at best.

We should try to find a less hyped player. Let the scout team earn their money.
 

Offside

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He’d be a great signing but like most English players would be way overpriced.
 

SeanyC

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Decent but highly overinflated price for someone that has only really got one good season behind him. If he performs again next season, go get him next year, drive the price down
 

croadyman

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I have questions about our back line being able to work the ball to our attackers with a #6 like Rice.

In our recent loss to Liverpool, they boxed off our back line with a high press and left our attackers stranded. Is Rice going to play through that kind of pressure? I don't see it.

Feels like a replacement for Matic, when what we need is a replacement for Carrick.
Personally think we need both a Matic/Carrick type player in there but will only sign one and not convinced that we will get either this summer. I am certain it will be the main focus this time next year along with replacing Edi as well as don't feel Mason is ready to step up into the role yet
 

sullydnl

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His accurate price tag would be something around 50M. Anything above 60M+ is robbery.

Similar thing happened with Maguire with people being like : "Just pay the money ffs". But its not his fault we payed 80M for him when he is a 60M player at best.

We should try to find a less hyped player. Let the scout team earn their money.
I don't really get it when people say things like "Maguire is a 60m player, not an 80m player", "I'd pay 65m for Sancho but not 85m", or "I'd sell Lingard for 25m but not 20m", as if in their heads they have some meaningful way of quantifying what those differences in price actually mean.

I mean what does the idea of 50m being a fair price for Rice but 65m being a robbery actually mean in any sort of real terms whatsoever? How does that 15m difference in a one-off fee manifest itself over the duration of his time here? Five fewer good games a season or something? Meanwhile if we think we'd get those extra 5 games and a goal every leap year but also an extra booking every fourth Tuesday he plays then he'd actually level out at being worth 60m? Or is it a stats thing, an extra 0.5m for every extra 2% ground duels won he has on fbref?

And of course that ignores wages, which form a massive bulk of what a player actually costs. Do they not get factored into the makey-uppy equation of what a player is worth for any reason other than it not being a nice round figure? A nice round figure that will of course be reported as different figures and no doubt involve conditional payments that may or may not be met.

I'm sure I've said similar things in the past but really from a fan's POV the difference between paying 50m and 65m for a player is utterly meaningless, as we wouldn't even know where to begin in assessing whether it's worth that extra bit of money. It's just posting random numbers based on feeling and deciding one is a rip-off but the other is fair.
 

Ikon

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I'm not at all convinced that a MF or a more specialised defensive MF is even on the shopping list this year. Even if it was, I very much doubt that we'd land Rice.
I think that all of the focus will be on Sancho and a CB.
 

smi11ie

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Look at the Glazers trying to haggle Dortmund down. They will more than likely piss Dortmund off so much that the Sancho deal will fall through. There is not a hope in hell they will stump up the money to buy Rice.
 

Highfather_24

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I mean what does the idea of 50m being a fair price for Rice but 65m being a robbery actually mean in any sort of real terms whatsoever? How does that 15m difference in a one-off fee manifest itself over the duration of his time here? Five fewer good games a season or something? Meanwhile if we think we'd get those extra 5 games and a goal every leap year but also an extra booking every fourth Tuesday he plays then he'd actually level out at being worth 60m? Or is it a stats thing, an extra 0.5m for every extra 2% ground duels won he has on fbref?
Its not that deep.

Almost everyone in this forum would say "Yeah Maguire is good but not 80M good". We all have an intuitive idea what that means.For example, Fred cost 50M for us. If he had cost 25M, do you think he would get as much stick as he gets? No, people would consider him a succesful signing. But since he came with a overinflated pricetag, he suffers more abuse. Dan James was a decent signing at 15M, but would have been a terrible signing at 40M. Telles has been decent signing at 10M, but would have been called a flop if he cost 45M. A lot of the dicourse around Pogba would have been a lot different if we had brought him back for 40M for example. Its simple really. For a certain amount of money, you expect a player to have a certain amount of impact.

And we dont have an ulimited kitty. If Rice is costing us 80M, when he is worth 50M at best, its better we invest in a cheaper alternative and use the spare money to invest in other positions.
 

Lash

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I don't really get it when people say things like "Maguire is a 60m player, not an 80m player", "I'd pay 65m for Sancho but not 85m", or "I'd sell Lingard for 25m but not 20m", as if in their heads they have some meaningful way of quantifying what those differences in price actually mean.

I mean what does the idea of 50m being a fair price for Rice but 65m being a robbery actually mean in any sort of real terms whatsoever? How does that 15m difference in a one-off fee manifest itself over the duration of his time here? Five fewer good games a season or something? Meanwhile if we think we'd get those extra 5 games and a goal every leap year but also an extra booking every fourth Tuesday he plays then he'd actually level out at being worth 60m? Or is it a stats thing, an extra 0.5m for every extra 2% ground duels won he has on fbref?

And of course that ignores wages, which form a massive bulk of what a player actually costs. Do they not get factored into the makey-uppy equation of what a player is worth for any reason other than it not being a nice round figure? A nice round figure that will of course be reported as different figures and no doubt involve conditional payments that may or may not be met.

I'm sure I've said similar things in the past but really from a fan's POV the difference between paying 50m and 65m for a player is utterly meaningless, as we wouldn't even know where to begin in assessing whether it's worth that extra bit of money. It's just posting random numbers based on feeling and deciding one is a rip-off but the other is fair.
I'm sure some people are arbitrarily deciding value, but a lot of people know we have roughly 150m net to spend, whilst we're also chasing Sancho. So 15m is actually a big difference when we're supposedly haggling over a lot less for Sancho.
 
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Look at the Glazers trying to haggle Dortmund down. They will more than likely piss Dortmund off so much that the Sancho deal will fall through. There is not a hope in hell they will stump up the money to buy Rice.
You are right, we should never negotiate. Give the club, the agent, the player the price they ask for.
 

OrcaFat

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Its not that deep.

Almost everyone in this forum would say "Yeah Maguire is good but not 80M good". We all have an intuitive idea what that means.For example, Fred cost 50M for us. If he had cost 25M, do you think he would get as much stick as he gets? No, people would consider him a succesful signing. But since he came with a overinflated pricetag, he suffers more abuse. Dan James was a decent signing at 15M, but would have been a terrible signing at 40M. Telles has been decent signing at 10M, but would have been called a flop if he cost 45M. A lot of the dicourse around Pogba would have been a lot different if we had brought him back for 40M for example. Its simple really. For a certain amount of money, you expect a player to have a certain amount of impact.

And we dont have an ulimited kitty. If Rice is costing us 80M, when he is worth 50M at best, its better we invest in a cheaper alternative and use the spare money to invest in other positions.
Rice is worth more than £50m.

Your whole point sounds a bit crazy. It would be great if we could fill the squad with “cheaper alternatives” who will improve the squad (after all, what is the scouting department for?). It’s just not realistic.

If West Ham were daft enough to let Rice go for £50m, that would be where the bidding would start and it would surely go up from there. If anyone thinks COVID will prevent clubs paying more than £50m, that may or may not be true but, in reality, West Ham will just say no.
 

Highfather_24

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Rice is worth more than £50m.

Your whole point sounds a bit crazy. It would be great if we could fill the squad with “cheaper alternatives” who will improve the squad (after all, what is the scouting department for?). It’s just not realistic.
Agree to disagree. Either you believe the inflated market prices for English players, or you think Rice is better than I think he is.

Anyway, I think Camavinga will become the better player in near future, and has far more potential, and will be cheaper. So yeah, he should be thought of as an alternative. I'm sure there are other options too. Leicester consistently get great players on the cheap who we try to buy with inflated fees later. So spare me the lecture on "no value in the market".
 

RedRonaldo

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Rice is worth more than £50m.

Your whole point sounds a bit crazy. It would be great if we could fill the squad with “cheaper alternatives” who will improve the squad (after all, what is the scouting department for?). It’s just not realistic.

If West Ham were daft enough to let Rice go for £50m, that would be where the bidding would start and it would surely go up from there. If anyone thinks COVID will prevent clubs paying more than £50m, that may or may not be true but, in reality, West Ham will just say no.
English players in PL are often overrated and overpriced. I am sure 50m can get us a lot of good DM elsewhere, and some of them could even be better than Rice.

One example is, Dias cost City 60m and he is now best defender in the league/Europe. Bruno cost us around the same he is now arguably best AM in the league/Europe too.

We don’t really have to force our hands to pay up 80-90m for Rice, just because he is a good player and is English. He isn’t worth that much.
 

Kaos

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After Sancho I'd rather we don't overspend on overhyped English talents. I'd be happy if we signed him, but not for the quoted prices.

Could we not just have our scouts actually earn their keep or at the very least copy the homework of their Dortmund counterparts and try and unveil an inexpensive gem?
 

Adnan

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After Sancho I'd rather we don't overspend on overhyped English talents. I'd be happy if we signed him, but not for the quoted prices.

Could we not just have our scouts actually earn their keep or at the very least copy the homework of their Dortmund counterparts and try and unveil an inexpensive gem?
Signing the inexpensive gem would be the easy part, but would you then like Dortmund be patient in the development of the inexpensive gem in the EPL and allow him plenty of game time ?
 

VinzentFTW

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Signing the inexpensive gem would be the east part, but would you then like Dortmund be patient in the development of the inexpensive gem in the EPL and allow him plenty of game time ?
You can get Bissouma for half the price. He would walk into our midtfield and is PL proven.
 

roseguy64

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After Sancho I'd rather we don't overspend on overhyped English talents. I'd be happy if we signed him, but not for the quoted prices.

Could we not just have our scouts actually earn their keep or at the very least copy the homework of their Dortmund counterparts and try and unveil an inexpensive gem?
Why do you think we don't know who the players Dortmund target are? Very few players like that would go under our radar. They just might choose Dortmund because they prefer Germany and have an easier route to the first team.

Players like Hannbal, Pellistri and Amad are those kinds of players. Doesn't mean all of them make it to the first team.
 

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The more I see of Rice, the more I think we will regret not going in more aggresively to get Bellingham before Dortmund. Bellingham to me looks a better player already and would walk into our first team easily.
 

roseguy64

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The more I see of Rice, the more I think we will regret not going in more aggresively to get Bellingham before Dortmund. Bellingham to me looks a better player already and would walk into our first team easily.
We had his family in for talks and had Sir Alex meet them. We put in a lot of effort to get him.