Declan Rice

cyberman

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I think he and Zouma could've done better on the Lingard goal.
I noticed that as well. Jesse cuts in and Rice sees it but he just stands here and looks as if he is covering a pass instead of closing down an obvious shot? Look at the replay, Jesse doesn’t feint to wrong foot Zouma, he hits it a bit too far and has to regroup and prepare to shoot again. I honestly think Rice should get there
 

Bestietom

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I have noticed Rice seems to tire in most games over the last year or more. His fitness levels are not very good, seen this with England also.Anyone else notice this.
 

Lash

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He probably is a touch overrated, my biggest question would be can we not find an equally talented midfielder somewhere on the continent who isn’t going to cost north of £80m?
Painfully obvious the answer is yes, but no one wants to look outside the Prem and are convincing themselves blowing our entire budget on him would be a good idea.
 

Lash

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I have noticed Rice seems to tire in most games over the last year or more. His fitness levels are not very good, seen this with England also.Anyone else notice this.
In his defence, this is probably the most amount of games he's ever played in his career across a whole season. He will improve in this aspect IMO.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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I was at Wembley in the summer for the final, Phillips is a much better midfielder than Rice and Mount as things stand.
Rice is miles better than Philips to be honest. Even if you think otherwise, Philips is more of the same in terms of a box to box ball winner, in the mould of Fred/McTominay. Rice is a specialist DM who knows how to shield the defence and position himself correctly. We need a player like Rice far more than Philips.
 

OverratedOpinion

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Painfully obvious the answer is yes, but no one wants to look outside the Prem and are convincing themselves blowing our entire budget on him would be a good idea.
Who?

I don't even rate Rice very highly but there does seem to be a real dearth of that type of midfielder currently.
 

TwoSheds

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Rice is miles better than Philips to be honest. Even if you think otherwise, Philips is more of the same in terms of a box to box ball winner, in the mould of Fred/McTominay. Rice is a specialist DM who knows how to shield the defence and position himself correctly. We need a player like Rice far more than Philips.
Even if your last sentence were true, that would be totally irrelevant to the question of who's a better midfielder. As I said, I watched them both live in a big match and Phillips was much the better player, including winning the ball more and higher up the pitch I seem to remember.
 

TwoSheds

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Who?

I don't even rate Rice very highly but there does seem to be a real dearth of that type of midfielder currently.
Honestly, I'd rather have Danilo who doesn't even get a game at PSG over Gueye (though that is crackers because Gueye is shit) . Danilo is not very inspired on the ball but he's an excellent ball winner and would do the job for a couple of years at least. I think there's loads of DMs out there if your scouts do their job. Palhinha maybe at Sporting as an example.
 

andy0

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I have noticed Rice seems to tire in most games over the last year or more. His fitness levels are not very good, seen this with England also.Anyone else notice this.
When he found himself on that charge down the pitch with the ball yesterday, I thought he seemed to take a while to recover his breath and his position.
 

Abraxas

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Honestly, I'd rather have Danilo who doesn't even get a game at PSG over Gueye (though that is crackers because Gueye is shit) . Danilo is not very inspired on the ball but he's an excellent ball winner and would do the job for a couple of years at least. I think there's loads of DMs out there if your scouts do their job. Palhinha maybe at Sporting as an example.
These aren't great options, if this is the best we're coming up with then it does show the options aren't as plentiful as we'd like. A guy that can't get a game for PSG and has never been anything special and must be about 30 and another that's never played outside Portugal and even the fans of that league say is a good pure defensive midfielder but a very average passer. That's in the Portuguese league for a good side, not with the expectation and pressure he'd be under on the ball for us in the PL.

No, Rice at 80 million is definitely a far better option even if it's a ton of money, probably too much money. A player we can rely on for a long time to come, improves year on year (see stats for this season) and we know what we're getting.
 

Dante

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Painfully obvious the answer is yes, but no one wants to look outside the Prem and are convincing themselves blowing our entire budget on him would be a good idea.
We bought our three transfers from Germany, Spain and Italy. And also targetted Camavinga (France) and Goretzka (Germany) for midfield but got rebuffed.

I'm pretty sure 'outside the Prem' is exactly where we're looking.

In fact, we even ignored the likes of Neves and Bissouma, despite them playing in the PL.
 

Lash

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Who?

I don't even rate Rice very highly but there does seem to be a real dearth of that type of midfielder currently.
I've mentioned Kamara at Marseille before, he's of a very similar profile - contract is expiring at the end of the season as well. I'm not saying he's the answer, but Kante was just milling around at Caen before Leicester got him. There is always going to be players out there that people over look for expensive alternatives. I don't believe for a second, with the sheer amounts of scouts and analysts we have, that the best value for money option being presented to Ole and team is Rice. If that is actually the conclusion, then we have a clear bias/overweighting to prem experience in our view of players.
 

Lash

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We bought our three transfers from Germany, Spain and Italy. And also targetted Camavinga (France) and Goretzka (Germany) for midfield but got rebuffed.

I'm pretty sure 'outside the Prem' is exactly where we're looking.
I meant the posters on here, rather than United.
 

TwoSheds

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These aren't great options, if this is the best we're coming up with then it does show the options aren't as plentiful as we'd like. A guy that can't get a game for PSG and has never been anything special and must be about 30 and another that's never played outside Portugal and even the fans of that league say is a good pure defensive midfielder but a very average passer. That's in the Portuguese league for a good side, not with the expectation and pressure he'd be under on the ball for us in the PL.

No, Rice at 80 million is definitely a far better option even if it's a ton of money, probably too much money. A player we can rely on for a long time to come, improves year on year (see stats for this season) and we know what we're getting.
They're as good as or better players than Rice and wouldn't cost £80m. Him being English doesn't justify pretending he's better than he is.
 

RkkMan

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He has the Roy Keane seal of approval but people here will keep writing him off as if he doesn't instantly improve our team. Said it earlier I'd do what we did with Maguire and just pay £70-80m because he's exactly what we need and he solves our problem long term even though he's not as fashionable as other people here want
 

Orton

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He has the Roy Keane seal of approval but people here will keep writing him off as if he doesn't instantly improve our team. Said it earlier I'd do what we did with Maguire and just pay £70-80m because he's exactly what we need and he solves our problem long term even though he's not as fashionable as other people here want
Lost it by misplaced passes? Rice doesn’t play anything progressive whereas Scott played through the lines numerous times, heck there’s even a video on here showing his passing from the game. Not denying he’s good at what he does but at the end of the day it’s probably easier to stand out for West Ham, and this comes in a game we could’ve really scored a lot more goals and should’ve had at least 2 penalties too.

If our scouting team can’t see beyond the England team or overpriced premier league players then maybe we should be looking at replacing them?

200 million already on McGuire; Sancho and AWB, close to 300 if we end up signing Rice. Crazy
 

Zoo

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I have noticed Rice seems to tire in most games over the last year or more. His fitness levels are not very good, seen this with England also.Anyone else notice this.
At the Euros he was only just back from a two month layoff. Yesterday their whole team flagged in general probably because of the trip to Croatia with a 2 day turnaround.
 

Bebestation

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Apparently is easier to play progressive passes for West Ham vs United than United Vs West Ham :rolleyes:
 

andersj

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Rice doesn’t play anything progressive whereas Scott played through the lines numerous times, heck there’s even a video on here showing his passing from the game.
Rice moved the ball 631 yards forward yesterday. Only player who was more progressive (passing + carries) on the pitch was Varane.

Rice completion rate yesterday was 92 % for a team averaging 82 %. The average completion rate of Man Utd was 88 % yesterday.
 

mu4c_20le

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Apparently is easier to play progressive passes for West Ham vs United than United Vs West Ham :rolleyes:
Well yes, that's the same as people saying its easier for Lingard to perform for West Ham than at United. Our problem is needing to find someone to break the low block, not be a part of it.
 

Bebestation

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Lost it by misplaced passes? Rice doesn’t play anything progressive whereas Scott played through the lines numerous times, heck there’s even a video on here showing his passing from the game. Not denying he’s good at what he does but at the end of the day it’s probably easier to stand out for West Ham, and this comes in a game we could’ve really scored a lot more goals and should’ve had at least 2 penalties too.

If our scouting team can’t see beyond the England team or overpriced premier league players then maybe we should be looking at replacing them?

200 million already on McGuire; Sancho and AWB, close to 300 if we end up signing Rice. Crazy
I'd have this over the overrated French team so much right now.

One moment people talk about talking about SAF buying the Premier leagues best players - the next the flag is putting them off.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Even if your last sentence were true, that would be totally irrelevant to the question of who's a better midfielder. As I said, I watched them both live in a big match and Phillips was much the better player, including winning the ball more and higher up the pitch I seem to remember.
Yes that’s the point, that’s Philips job, just as it’s Rice’s job to sit in and shield the defence. He doesn’t go wandering box to box he know where to position himself defensively. It’s the same with Matic, he’s slow but still the best reader of the game we have in midfield because he knows where to position himself.
 

cyberman

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Apparently is easier to play progressive passes for West Ham vs United than United Vs West Ham :rolleyes:
To be fair when you drop so deep and each pass is 5 yards sideways then of course you will have a high completion rate. Especially when playing in such a low block with every teammate around you. It’s when you take risks playing the forward pass trying to topple a low block is when you lose possession.
There is this weird movement to pretend that Rice was one of the best players on the pitch yesterday when it was clearly not the case. If Rice played as well as Scott did we would not hear the end of it.
 

Orton

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Rice moved the ball 631 yards forward yesterday. Only player who was more progressive (passing + carries) on the pitch was Varane.

Rice completion rate yesterday was 92 % for a team averaging 82 %. The average completion rate of Man Utd was 88 % yesterday.
Watching the game, how many of those passes actually led to anything meaningful? I’m not trying to discredit him too much and he’s obviously a good player, but there’s a reason why England lacked much attacking impetuous in the Euros and having a defensive duo sitting in midfield was one of the main reasons.
 

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To be fair when you drop so deep and each pass is 5 yards sideways then of course you will have a high completion rate. Especially when playing in such a low block with every teammate around you. It’s when you take risks playing the forward pass trying to topple a low block is when you lose possession.
There is this weird movement to pretend that Rice was one of the best players on the pitch yesterday when it was clearly not the case. If Rice played as well as Scott did we would not hear the end of it.
And again because you don't see it you think it did not happen.

There is this one pass I remember exactly that Rice cut straight through the middle that went through 3 players that I decided to remember because I felt people would say that he doesn't make progressive passes. That was to start a counter as well.

I saw him switching channels with a long ball as another thing that people thing he can't do - even though we are not buying him for that type of player.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Watching the game, how many of those passes actually led to anything meaningful? I’m not trying to discredit him too much and he’s obviously a good player, but there’s a reason why England lacked much attacking impetuous in the Euros and having a defensive duo sitting in midfield was one of the main reasons.
He started off numerous counter attacks.
 

Adam-Utd

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Apparently is easier to play progressive passes for West Ham vs United than United Vs West Ham :rolleyes:
It's definitely easier to play progressive passes from a deeper position into more space that's for sure.

Do you think it's easier for Fred/Mctominay to play forward passes when there's 9 bodies lined up infront of them with little gaps?

This is why you need to take stats with a pinch of salt. I don't remember him playing 1 pass that was actually effective in causing us trouble.

If you play for United you need more than playing safe passes. People are screaming on here that DVB is too neat and tidy, but now we want an even more defensive version of him in midfield?
 

luke511

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Rice moved the ball 631 yards forward yesterday. Only player who was more progressive (passing + carries) on the pitch was Varane.

Rice completion rate yesterday was 92 % for a team averaging 82 %. The average completion rate of Man Utd was 88 % yesterday.
Good point, whoscored actually have his pass completion at 97% (I know stat sites tend to vary a bit). It feels like his reliability in that position isn't praised enough, he always wants the ball no matter how little space he has, he always does the right turn to hold onto possession and then finds a pass. He has a consistent Carrick style drilled low pass on his locker, combine that with his defensive strengths, his ability to drive forward, his shooting and his captain attitude you have a very good defensive midfielder. He's worth 70-80 million easily given all the factors and would be a quality signing for utd.
 

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He's an average to good tidy midfielder playing in an average to good team. But, his average is much higher than Scott's or Fred's.
People saying that he's worse than Scott or Fred are out of their god damn minds. I know everyone is entitled to their opinion and we should respect it no matter what, but please put on a pair of glasses, Scott and Fred are not even Brighton level.

There are a few hots and colds with our CM's that are kind of only hots with Rice:
- Rice can stop a ball. MCT stopping a ball is like watching it bounce of a table corner, no kidding, Fred's a bit better, but Fred's next touch after stopping it is the danger.
- MCT has a talent of not being where he needs to be for 90% of the game. He's always a yard behind or out of position.
- Fred has a talent of being absolutely where he needs to be, but his passing and brain farts are the reason he's not developed into a top player yet.

Rice is not and will not be a Roy Keane and he's massively overrated at the quoted 100mil, but he's miles better than what we have. Dunno if that says a lot about him or about our CM's, but life is life.
 

bosnian_red

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Honestly he's turning into my ideal signing for next season. People love to shit on proper holding midfielders and always underrate their importance. He's exactly what we need. Someone to balance our team with his excellent positioning and defensive ability, someone who is mature in his play and doesn't get dragged out easily and is also safe and smart with the ball, doesn't give it away easily. It helps sustain attacks as Neville always says, as the opposition have a harder time keeping the ball or countering on you. And it's literally the only possibility of Pogba working in one of the deeper midfield positions, which is a much greater net benefit than anything else, as with Pogba and Rice we have both the creativity and progressive play and the security blanket of Rice. And enables us to play Bruno and the 3 attackers in front.

Even if Pogba goes, I'm all for Rice.
 

cyberman

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And again because you don't see it you think it did not happen.

There is this one pass I remember exactly that Rice cut straight through the middle that went through 3 players that I decided to remember because I felt people would say that he doesn't make progressive passes. That was to start a counter as well.

I saw him switching channels with a long ball as another thing that people thing he can't do - even though we are not buying him for that type of player.
But he doesn’t make progressive passes. You shouldn’t have to pick out just one that you remember. The game should be full of those examples.
i can’t believe people look at that game and think you know what would be better?One less player playing forward putting pressure on the ball and one extra player further back doing nothing.
Rice will always have high passing percentages because he plays so deep that he has CB passing rates due to the amount of times he just passes the ball out while under no pressure because they are so deep.
In the Premier league Lindelof has an average of 56 passes per game. Rice has 41. Lindelof has created 6 big chances in his premier league career. Rice has 4. Lindelof has th exact same amount of through balls as Rice in 4!
Rice plays so deep that not only does he pale in comparison to other midfielders but to decent ball playing CBs as well.
You can literally prove anything with stats.
 

bucky

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I think he is talented, but I find a bit odd that people would be excited by his performance yesterday. There was some good and some bad. He had his moments in the second half, but he also could have closed down Lingard more for our second goal. During the first half he was easily beaten by McTominay with a simple body feint, when McTominay played that pass into Ronaldo. Moments later Wan-Bissaka easily went past him, despite the fact that I keep constantly hearing how shite Wan-Bissaka is going forward, which resulted in another good chance for us. If that was Pogba, Fred or McTominay, their performance thread would be flooded.
 

bucky

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And again who has Tchouameni bossed :lol:

Absolutely nobody.

Hasn't don't nothing in his life, not even bossed the French league.

Just a possibility.
Bizarre reply considering the poster doesn't even mention Tchouaméni.
 

mu4c_20le

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Best thing about Rice would be the ease of combining names with his midfield partner. It's Price with Pogba, and with Fred it's Fried Rice.
 

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But he doesn’t make progressive passes. You shouldn’t have to pick out just one that you remember. The game should be full of those examples.
i can’t believe people look at that game and think you know what would be better?One less player playing forward putting pressure on the ball and one extra player further back doing nothing.
Rice will always have high passing percentages because he plays so deep that he has CB passing rates due to the amount of times he just passes the ball out while under no pressure because they are so deep.
In the Premier league Lindelof has an average of 56 passes per game. Rice has 41. Lindelof has created 6 big chances in his premier league career. Rice has 4. Lindelof has th exact same amount of through balls as Rice in 4!
Rice plays so deep that not only does he pale in comparison to other midfielders but to decent ball playing CBs as well.
You can literally prove anything with stats.
Only four midfielders in the PL has made more progressive passes this season, Neves, Tielesman, Pogba and Fornals. But all of these have significantly lower completion rate than Rice. Only Neves and Pogba (both at 48) have made more passes into the final third than Rice (45).

Pogba is the only central midfielder that has completed more passes than Rice into the penalty area. Pogba has completed 11. Rice 10. But Rice has completed 4 crosses into the penalty area. Pogba 2.

Do you think Rice would be likely to make more or less progressive passes if he played for a better club?
 
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sincher

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Jeez, 'average to good'?! Clearly not. 'Average to good' in my eyes would be someone like Nakamba. Rice very often stands out and would be an expensive but sound signing for a big club.
 

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What Keane are you talking about, Michael Keane, Moise Keane?

The first thing Fergie said to the players when Keane was signed was 'this guy doesn't lose the ball, ever'. He was the main passer and midfield player in our team, rotating partners between Butt, Scholes, Phil Nev and occasionally Becks, up until his legs were gone. Even then, he still had the occasional complete performance like when he bossed Gerrard in 04.

no bigger fan of Roy than i was and still am...hence the user name

he was a progressive passer yes but he wasn't a pirlo type passer or some massive risk taker with the ball.....he was the complete midfielder and team leader. He made the game tick and moved the ball but he wasn't the hollywood type passer like you see with some of these guys today. I just don't see Rice with that in his locker. Would he be an upgrade on Fred? Yes. Would he be an upgrade on Scott? No
Jury is still out on Donny as we've yet to see him get a true run of games consecutively. For the money it would cost to bring him in, is it worth it?

Fortunately i think we are at the point where the glaring weakness of the team is MUCH smaller and can be addressed now in one window. DCM is the main issue to address. Back ups at both outside backs would be next in line.
 

TrustInOle

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Just like Maguire in my eyes, very much needed by us but will cost a bomb. Varane, Maguire and Rice is more than enough quality to hold back teams from countering to often.