The point I was making must have gone over your head. Klopp's system makes players better, take them out of the system and they are not as good. Henderson before Klopp was very average for Liverpool, and he's very average in an England shirt.
Declan Rice
- Thread starter roonster09
- Start date
- Status
You've got to actually make the point before for it can go over my head.
It's not a magical system. The players still have to be capable of playing it in order for them to thrive. Even in the England set up you seem so eager to use as a comparison it's Phillips and not Rice that's tasked with pressing and using the ball further up the pitch.
I really don't know why this thread trundles on. Whether you like him or not, there is no chance of him coming here.
Henderson was very good passer under Brendan also. He's certainly better than any CM we've had post Fergie (bar Carrick). Can't understand how people still don't rate Henderson.
I said before that Rice ceiling looks closer to Henderson than Keane, but that's not saying Rice ceiling is average.
Fergie clearly rated him also.
He might turn into a fantastic footballer. I'm English so I would genuinely be quite happy if that happens. I just don't think he has the tools to play for a top side. The structure at West Ham suits him well. He can sit deep, play it simple, and break up play. But no top side wants to play so deep, which is where Rice excels.
People can sit there and criticize all they want - I guess they have the right to, but he's rated by the person that picks the team. That's all that matters.
True, mate. He plays an important part in Klop's machine.
Rice will become this 7/7.5 out of 10 every game English player with huge English tax and for the budget Ragnick will get I am sure better alternative for a better value. Rice is a decent talent and slowly getting better every season just don't think his ball playing abilities might convince some of the coaches here for the price he would draw.
He's definitely one of the top young player with high potential. But it's a big 80-100m gamble for what he's shown so far. With that price tag, it would eat a big chunk of our transfer warchest, and be hard to move him out if things don't work out well.
Who knows, though. 3 years ago, I didn't think Grealish would be this good.
For the price quoted for Rice,
I’d rather we go for Edson Alvarez or Palhinha, with Frank Kessie on the free and Jules Kounde.
I’d rather we go for Edson Alvarez or Palhinha, with Frank Kessie on the free and Jules Kounde.
Im not referring to just this post im saying all of your posts are negative vibes. Literally them all
as regards the scouts, then your post wasnt very clear, you said they were doing a crap job. Lots of examples given to you then you’ve changed your tune to none of them are in the first team. Make your mind up!
Rice is what this team needs (+ another CM of course). Who cares how much he would cost.
We all have our opinions. Some might say you carry delusional ones. I'm just realistic about the state of the club. What have I said that was so wrong about Ole, his coaching staff and our incompetent management, really? You also won't and haven't seen me making such posts about Rangnick because the difference between him and Ole are night and day. Even if he fails, I'm happy that the club is finally going in the right direction. I've always said this.
No, my statement was towards our management. At the end of the day, the scouts do not sign the players. There are no examples that have been given that are contrary to what I said. Diallo and Pellistri are for the future. You have Dalot who was much the same. Martial was the most sought "wonderkid" back in the day that we paid quite a steep price for. We paid a steep price for an unproven talent. That leaves us with Bailly and Lindelof who haven't been even remotely successful here. Sure, Bailly is a decent player on his day, but he has spent more time on the treatment table than playing. What about any of this is incorrect? You look at Liverpool under Klopp and the signings they've made outside of Allison and VVD. Decent, quality players for very cheap. Why can't we do anything like that? Why do we have to spend 50-100 million on every player? Even City, who have spent as much as us, at least have done so buying very high quality players. In comparison, we're kind of lacking there. And the club needs even more money to spend on a midfield and potentially RB.
Rice is a brilliant player - and he would walk into every team in the Premier League. But he will be too expensive.
Rice can definitely do the pressing, he is energetic and great at winning the ball, and his football intelligence is evident from his excellent positioning and anticipation to snuff out danger. He is better than Philips or anyone else england have at the defensive side of the game, hence being used deeper for england. He came into this season with a point to prove against people like yourself who say he is just a limited dm, and he has been doing that with 4 goals already. I think when he gets his big move he'll become a key part of the team and prove the doubters very wrong.
I think the time of buying established, expensive stars is over. Not Ralf's style.
I'm not sure it's over, Haaland was just talked about today.
However, RR will make sure that if things like data shows that there are alternative who may be cheaper then I think we will go for that.
I still think though if the data does point out a very good or unique player some where - that we won't act like a 3rd Red Bull club and still go for the best option.
He's not worth the fee that West Ham will ask, personally I dont get the obsession of overpaying the "british tax". It rarely works out and you end up with an average player that cost a premium fee. Players such as Maguire, Wan Bissaka, Grealish are examples of this.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
If Tuchel uses Chalobah, Loftus Cheek, Mount and Hudson Odoi - I see no reason why he won't use Rice.
However, he is not a Chelsea player right now and will cost a lot - something I think Abrahamovic will say No thank you to. Only way he might is if things turn upside down for players like Kante that just suddenly might age? Still seems unlikely.
It's just too expensive for Chelsea - a team that plays 3 CB'S at the back don't need a player like Rice - Rice is the 3rd CB playing in midfield.
However, he is not a Chelsea player right now and will cost a lot - something I think Abrahamovic will say No thank you to. Only way he might is if things turn upside down for players like Kante that just suddenly might age? Still seems unlikely.
It's just too expensive for Chelsea - a team that plays 3 CB'S at the back don't need a player like Rice - Rice is the 3rd CB playing in midfield.
He's shit.
He just constantly sits off. He really needs to press up and challenge for the ball
It's what your going to eat in spades when he irrefutably proves you wrong, for most of us he has already done that.
Those flaws are very real. He's a very conserative player which means his first instinct when posssession is lost is to back off, and his first instinct when he picks up the ball is to play the easiest pass available. It's possible he'll grow into a different kind of player but right now that's a substantial deficiency that his partner needs to compensate for. Soucek covering more yards than anyone in the league is partly because he's a strong athlete and partly because Rice often plays with cowardice. His occasional ranging runs, when the easy ball isn't available, just help gloss over that.
After the Man City West Ham match, Guardiola said nice thing about Rice. Is this another of their attempt to get United to buy a player at an inflated price?
The thing that I like about Rice is how his positioning allows the rest of the team to go out and do their thing.
The fullbacks, Soucek, the attacking mids and the forwards can really get going even against teams like Chelsea or Liverpool.
This is why I want him because we have players that can go and be our Soucek that gets forward - we have Fred, Pogba, McTominay and VDB that arguably only has Matic that sits and protect the CB'S whilst everyone else can go an attack or press further up the pitch. Someone like Tchouameni who has been regarded as an alternative is not that type of CDM, his best is when chasing after the ball which means players like VDB, McTominay, Fred or Pogba will have to be positionally deeper or protective when Tchouameni steps up.
At the age of 22, I like what I see from Rice even though his weaknesses can be seen too. He isn't passing around like Carrick or Pirlo, but neither did they play this hybrid CB/CDM/CM type defensive role at the age of 22 either.
He isn't worth 100 mil, but some fans don't really care about prices of players and just want to fix the empty gaps of the squad.
And yet you clicked on the thread and then posted in it. Well done.
Last season:
This season:
Last season:
This season:
Will be interesting to see if that improvement holds across the season.
This season:
Last season:
This season:
Will be interesting to see if that improvement holds across the season.
Rice could play in a front footed side, there's absolutely no reason why not. He's very athletic, decently quick, can win the ball.
The way he plays for West Ham and England are very obviously dictated by the style and the managers and that means he has certain habits right now. But if you look at his improvement and the tactical job he does it'd be a brave man to think he couldn't adjust under a top manager.
He could be a good partner for Fred in a pressing style because he's naturally going to allow Fred to do that without compromising himself or the team. It wouldn't be a creative midfield by any means but it would be very functional and we've seen how that can work.
The way he plays for West Ham and England are very obviously dictated by the style and the managers and that means he has certain habits right now. But if you look at his improvement and the tactical job he does it'd be a brave man to think he couldn't adjust under a top manager.
He could be a good partner for Fred in a pressing style because he's naturally going to allow Fred to do that without compromising himself or the team. It wouldn't be a creative midfield by any means but it would be very functional and we've seen how that can work.
Good enough, way out of reach with a silly transfer fee. Like Grealish was a absolute disgraceful amount to pay. It set a precedent now for others.
swop for Martial?
No thanks. 40 -50m sure worth a shot but not anything above that.
I don't want to make a thread about it but it's talked about here the most - so I will say it here.
England players are apparently overrated and overpriced whilst French players like Pogba and Martial are going to leave us after being expensive flops or dissapointments; some even potentially leaving on a free.
What about Griezmann and Ousammane Dembele for Barcelona? - players that our fans were crying out not for signing for such overpriced amounts over 120 million euros. Worth the money now? Mbappe is leaving PSG on a free, arguably his own home town.
Just a bunch of crap acting like every English player is overpriced or overrated and everyone else is worth these exceptional prices.
England players are apparently overrated and overpriced whilst French players like Pogba and Martial are going to leave us after being expensive flops or dissapointments; some even potentially leaving on a free.
What about Griezmann and Ousammane Dembele for Barcelona? - players that our fans were crying out not for signing for such overpriced amounts over 120 million euros. Worth the money now? Mbappe is leaving PSG on a free, arguably his own home town.
Just a bunch of crap acting like every English player is overpriced or overrated and everyone else is worth these exceptional prices.
The only problem here is that english clubs are wealthy, they do not have to sell. Hence price is higher.
But other than that, yeah, people are talking crap saying he's overrated.
Overpriced? Yes. Hell, every player is overpriced. But if he can play here for 10 years, who would give a feck that United paid 80M for him?
Players at wealthy, financially stable clubs are overpriced yes. Premier League clubs are nearly all wealthy and relatively financially stable these days, I think that's the point here.
I was wrong about this boy, we need him and Jude ASAP
Would you eat Declan's rice?
And you are saying this after today’s game where he got bossed in midfield by two players the CAF don’t rate one bit. I watched the game and Arsenal dominated in every sense. We don’t need him and I’m glad we have Rangnick who can find someone better.
Rice is a centre half or at least if he wants to make the step up then he needs to accept that's what he is, and he could make a damn good one. Doesn't have the attacking ability to play midfield for a top team. However I reckon if we'd spent the Maguire money on him and played him at centre half then he'd be the much better player, and I don't mind Maguire at all.
It's like Rio could have been a good midfielder for West Ham but was always going to have to be a central defender at a top club.
Thought I had posted this here during the game but turns out it was the match thread. Either way this is what I think.
It's like Rio could have been a good midfielder for West Ham but was always going to have to be a central defender at a top club.
Thought I had posted this here during the game but turns out it was the match thread. Either way this is what I think.
- Status