Declan Rice

[Maniron]

Well you’d need to be taking into consideration the fact Rice has played more than 500 more minutes than McTominay and I’d guess but not sure that would swing a lot of those stats in McTominay’s favour.

The only meaningful stat it would change is possession lost which would swing in Rice’s favour.

 

[Deery]

This isn’t correct. This season in the Premier League Rice is in the 82nd percentile for passing distance and the 75th percentile progressive passing distance. If you look at short range, medium range and long range passing he’s in the higher bracket for all those pass types attempted and completed. When it comes to non-creative passing its fair to say that Rice has been an elite passer in the Premier League this season. It’s something he’s significantly improved on this year. Also something that hints he’s a dedicated pro seeking to better himself, which is a good sign in and of itself.

https://fbref.com/en/players/1c7012b8/scout/11160/Declan-Rice-Scouting-Report

You going to take into consideration the fact he’s played the equivalent of nearly six more games than McTominay?

 

[Deery]

The only meaningful stat it would change is possession lost which would swing in Rice’s favour.

Doubtful.

 

[Ixion]

Well you’d need to be taking into consideration the fact Rice has played more than 500 more minutes than McTominay and I’d guess but not sure that would swing a lot of those stats in McTominay’s favour.

Yes but that is why the first comparison I posted was average per 90 minutes and they were in Rice's favour.

I've always said we should find a genuine DM to go alongside McTominay so he can play further forward and that's what I would try. I'm not suggesting sell McTominay, just play him in his correct position and get a real DM in

 

[Classical Mechanic]

You going to take into consideration the fact he’s played the equivalent of nearly six more games than McTominay?

On the total passing distances sure But the short, medium and long passing stats are per 90 so that doesn’t matter. In fact if you look at the stats it’s only on short passes attempted per 90 where Rice falls into the average range which directly contradicts the idea that he only makes short passes.

If you compare the two player’s stats for the season there isn’t really a single area where you can say McT is better.

https://fbref.com/en/players/d93c2511/scout/11160/Scott-McTominay-Scouting-Report

 

[Deery]

On the total passing distances sure But the short, medium and long passing stats are per 90 so that doesn’t matter. In fact if you look at the stats it’s only on short passes attempted per 90 where Rice falls into the average range which directly contradicts the idea that he only makes short passes.

If you compare the two player’s stats for the season there isn’t really a single area where you can say McT is better.

https://fbref.com/en/players/d93c2511/scout/11160/Scott-McTominay-Scouting-Report

Well those stats are saying there’s less than 5% pass accuracy between them which we worked out is about 5 passes so not really damning and the other guys stats have said nearly two thirds of Rice’s passes aren’t forwards so he’s either building up those stats going backwards or across the field.

 

[mitchmouse]

would so obviously be an upgrade on what we'e got, he's a box-to-box midfielder which we haven't had for ages. Whether there is a better one across world football is a different question...

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Well those stats are saying there’s less than 5% pass accuracy between them which we worked out is about 5 passes so not really damning and the other guys stats have said nearly two thirds of Rice’s passes aren’t forwards so he’s either building up those stats going backwards or across the field.

At the elite level it’s fine margins, you may here a phrase ‘marginal gains‘. All players in the Premier League are very good. You’re basically advocating for having average passers (relative to this high level) in midfield because there’s not a massive margin of difference between them and the best in the league. It’s one of the weirdest arguments I’ve heard on here. Fill the team with averageness to win. Bizarre.

 

[Ixion]

Whether you think Rice is the answer to our DM problem or not, McTominay is not the long term answer. Let him play in his best position and get a real DM in.

 

[Deery]

At the elite level it’s fine margins, you may here a phrase ‘marginal gains‘. All players in the Premier League are very good. You’re basically advocating for having average passers (relative to this high level) in midfield because there’s not a massive margin of difference between them and the best in the league. It’s one of the weirdest arguments I’ve heard on here. Fill the team with averageness to win. Bizarre.

There’s no need to get passive aggressive just because the two pages of stats you both have put forward is contradictory to your views, I’m just interpreting what’s been put in front of me nothing weird about it.
The fact McTominay makes nearly 50% of his passes forward and only has a 5% less pass accuracy tells me something.

 

[Ixion]

There’s no need to get passive aggressive just because the two pages of stats you both have put forward is contradictory to your views,

You have seen stat after stat in Rice's favour, per 90 minutes or just total numbers....and you have dismissed them all as not important. If someone doesn't want to listen to facts, like yourself, then it's pointless trying.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

It would take a record British fee to get him out of Westham. Let's move on and find someone like him from abroad.

 

[Deery]

You have seen stat after stat in Rice's favour, per 90 minutes or just total numbers....and you have dismissed them all as not important. If someone doesn't want to listen to facts, like yourself, then it's pointless trying.

Yes and they’re not massively in his favour and that’s what I was suggesting not enough to warrant £100m anyway.

 

[STYLOISRED]

A midfield of Rice, Tielemans and Bruno world be a joy to watch. Sadly it's not feasible.

 

[mctrials23]

You have to ask yourself, how many £80m+ signings have there been that would be considered a success by almost everyone.

Neymar - no
Mbappe - no
Coutinho - absolutely not
Felix - nope
Griezmann - nope
Grealish - doesn't look like it so far - hard to shine in that City side though
Lukaku - no
Dembele - no
Pogba - no
Hazard - no
Ronaldo - 100% yes
Bale - Not sure, has won Madrid some massive trophies but overall I think no if you ask RM fans. Wages etc
Higuain - no
Maguire - no
Lukaku again - no
Sancho - not yet
VvD - absolutely yes

Thats just a list taken from wikipedia of expensive transfers. It doesn't fill me with confidence that you get good value for money when you spend those sort of figures. I think that currently the value for money seems to be around £50m for players who have shown a lot of quality but who aren't overhyped or overvalued for whatever reason.

I like Rice but thats a huge amount of money especially for a DM.

 

[Adnan]

I like both of them! Rice has some qualities that Tchouameni dont, but Tchouameni looks a lot quicker and more agile. For a more attacking team than West Ham that will be of value.

The question is who our next coach would prefer! If that coach is ten Hag, Potter or Pochettino I’m leaning towards Tchouameni based on the midfielders they have used so far. They would obviously make good use of Rice as well. But in a well organised team that dominates possession the best qualities of Rice, the positional awareness and reading of the game off the ball, might be off less value.

I also think we have a very underrated talent on our hands with some of the same strenghts and weaknesses as Rice in James Garner. He is not a physically mature as Rice was at the same age, but on the ball I would argue he is more talented.

I agree with what you're saying, and would be happy with either player if i'm honest with you. But the issue for me is the price tag for Rice, which according to reports is gonna be pretty hefty. And some will say it's not my money, but if we spend the bulk of our budget on one player and it leaves us short in other areas, then i'm not sure that will be the best way to go forward. And even Tchouameni won't be cheap but it seems like he'll cost around €60m, but that still represents better value if we assume both players live up to their potential, and it may also help us bring in a additional signing by way of having those extra funds.

I'm always hopeful regarding the youth, and James Garner is a player who has the potential to develop into a deep lying play-maker next to a DM. I haven't seen him play outside of our youth teams but from what I remember, he's a player with a good passing range. He's gonna turn 21 in March this year, so I think he should be given a opportunity in preseason to stake a claim in the team.

But for me it's about the composition of the midfield and it's about creating a balance both offensively and defensively. The primary #6 (DM) should be strong in defensive transitions first and foremost and provide assistance to the hybrid #6/#8 midfielder next to him in possession, who will be the player, who will look to set the tempo via controlling the game in possession via quick short incisive passing or long passing. His primary role is to be the conductor in offensive transitions and provide support in defensive transitions to the two CBs and the primary #6. Then we have the most advanced midfielder slightly ahead of them who can also drop deeper depending on team setup.

DM: Declan Rice/Tchouameni as the primary #6, whose primary role is to provide defensive solidity.

Hybrid #6/8: Frenkie de Jong, whose primary role is to progress play and be the deep lying conductor. James Garner could potentially be a back up in this role.

AM: Bruno Fernandes, with Hannibal Mejbri as back up.

 

[arthurka]

Is he better than McTominay?

Genuine question.

I have the same feeling. If McT had been at West ham as the king of their midfield for all these years I think he would be in a similar bracket.

 

[AndersB]

Really impressed me yesterday. Great positioning, aggressive, carries the ball with power when needed, disciplined, no brain farts. People are using the DM position as an argument against a high price, but to me it seems that is one of the toughest positions to fill right now

 

[AndersB]

I have the same feeling. If McT had been at West ham as the king of their midfield for all these years I think he would be in a similar bracket.

Sorry, I love McTominay, but he's not in the same bracket. Rice is better in many of the most important defensive attributes. He's a bit like of you infused McTominay with some of Matic' best skills.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

There’s no need to get passive aggressive just because the two pages of stats you both have put forward is contradictory to your views, I’m just interpreting what’s been put in front of me nothing weird about it.
The fact McTominay makes nearly 50% of his passes forward and only has a 5% less pass accuracy tells me something.

Sorry if my post was a little over the top. A better measure than 'passes forward' is 'progressive passing' McT makes 4.29 progressive passes per 90 whilst Rice makes 3.77 so McT makes 1 more progressive pass than Rice every two games on average. Project that over the season and McT makes 19 more progressive passes than Rice over the course of a season. Now factor in their respective pass completion rates and McT will turn over the ball about 75 more times than Rice through his passing over the course of a season. When you then consider that Rice plays a more defensive role than McT I struggle to see how Scott can be considered a better passer even when it comes to something that McT should be a margin better than him at considering their respective roles.

 

[Sultan]

Is he better than McTominay?

Genuine question.

I thought Rice wasn't that much better than McTominay over the last few seasons. However, he has genuinely been very good this season and has easily overtaken him with his performances lately. I'm changing my mind on him and think he would be a great signing for around 60 million. Still not worth 100 million touted by the media.

 

[golden_blunder]

Is he better than McTominay?

Genuine question.

In pretty much everything apart from maybe goal threat. But that’s probably because McTominay is b2b and Rice isn’t.

 

[OrcaFat]

There’s no need to get passive aggressive just because the two pages of stats you both have put forward is contradictory to your views, I’m just interpreting what’s been put in front of me nothing weird about it.
The fact McTominay makes nearly 50% of his passes forward and only has a 5% less pass accuracy tells me something.

Does it tell you that actually our midfield is fine and there’s a lot of fuss about nothing? That would be weird.

I’m pretty sure that 99% of people who give a flying feck would say our CM is not good enough.

The stats do show that Rice is one of the top players out there. In addition to that, there is his personality which doesn’t show on the stats but is widely agreed to be excellent.

I don’t know what the point of saying McT is only a bit worse is but it sounds pretty feeble.

 

[Withnail]

There’s no need to get passive aggressive just because the two pages of stats you both have put forward is contradictory to your views, I’m just interpreting what’s been put in front of me nothing weird about it.
The fact McTominay makes nearly 50% of his passes forward and only has a 5% less pass accuracy tells me something.

McT with 50% forward passes didn't give you pause at all?

McT has 243 forward passes out of 764 which is 31%.

Rice has 351 out if 1222 which is 29%.

Overall there doesn't seem to be all that much between them according to those stats although Rice attempts more pases per 90. Rice does seem to be better on the defensive side. The main one for me was Rice had 2 more recoveries and 2 less ball losses per 90.

Although if your overall point is that he isn't worth 100m then I'd agree there.

 

[Kag]

He’s on another planet to McTominay.

Just bloody watch him. His positioning in front of the back four is as good as it gets anywhere in world football.

In fairness to McTominay, he isn’t a defensive midfielder; he’s being asked to be one in spite of the reams of evidence that his best work is done closer to goal.

 

[golden_blunder]

What I like most about him is how he reacted to the negative criticism during the euros. A monkey could have told you that he was playing to plan, doing what Southgate told him too.
but he still took it on the chin and said he would show people that he’s much more than just that.
And true to his word he’s excelling on everything

 

[golden_blunder]

I was watching him yesterday and at one stage he received the ball and had 3-4 United players snapping at him to get the ball. He looked boxed in but he calmly found the out ball

 

[golden_blunder]

I would buy him. 75m and they will talk. 100m is moyes having delusion.

but we’d need to promote Hannibal or buy someone else to compliment him

 

[cyberman]

There’s no need to get passive aggressive just because the two pages of stats you both have put forward is contradictory to your views, I’m just interpreting what’s been put in front of me nothing weird about it.
The fact McTominay makes nearly 50% of his passes forward and only has a 5% less pass accuracy tells me something.

I’d also argue Rice habit of playing so deep would mean his forward passes are less forward than Scott’s. Scott is constantly backing up play and carrying the ball forward in attacking positions while Rice is intercepting balls in front of his own box and laying it off to the free man etc.
The fact Scott is so close to Rice when Scott’s main attribute is carrying the ball rather than passing really tells me a lot.
This highlights my point with a Fred comparison
https://www.football365.com/news/feature-fred-man-utd-comparison-ndidi-thiago-rice-kante
Rice is right up there in passes completed but then falls like a stone when passes are broken down into progressive and key but shoots back up in interceptions.
Rice stars bluffs us because of the position he plays. The same way Maguire stats are good on the eyes as well
https://www.sportbible.com/football...-of-the-best-defenders-in-the-league-20210303

 

[Shark]

It would take a record British fee to get him out of Westham. Let's move on and find someone like him from abroad.

If he genuinely wants to come there's little West Ham can do though.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The stats do show that Rice is one of the top players out there. In addition to that, there is his personality which doesn’t show on the stats but is widely agreed to be excellent.

This is a massive factor for me. I never bought into the idea that Schneiderlin failed at United because he was 'asked to do more' than he was at Southampton. I think players like him, Kagawa etc fail at United because of their mentality. You can look at Maguire and the abuse he's been getting to see the kind of pressure that comes with playing for a club like United. Fergie used to say you need players with the right character and he would often sign players like Yorke and Saha that came to OT and played with no fear. Maguire has disappointed me with how he's reacted to things in his United career and I worry about Sancho because he seems more introverted. Rice (and Bellingham) and totally different characters to the players previously mentioned as they are both extroverted leaders with big personalities. I'd be much more confident of them surviving the increase in pressure and exposure that comes with playing for United whilst adding to the dressing room.

That said, I'm still on the fence about Rice because of the fee. £60m OK but £100m...............

 

[golden_blunder]

I honestly don’t think it would take a record British fee. We’ve just come out of covid in terms of getting the fans back in the stadium. West Ham won’t turn their nose up at 65-75m, throw in a few add-ons for winning trophies. None of us would begrudge those if he leads us to trophies

 

[mctrials23]

Do many people here actually think Rice wouldn't be a big upgrade on McT or do they just think that it wouldn't be a big enough upgrade to justify the likely cost.

He wouldn't improve us by as much as his fee will be is my opinion. £50-60m? yes. £80m+ god no.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I’d also argue Rice habit of playing so deep would mean his forward passes are less forward than Scott’s. Scott is constantly backing up play and carrying the ball forward in attacking positions while Rice is intercepting balls in front of his own box and laying it off to the free man etc.
The fact Scott is so close to Rice when Scott’s main attribute is carrying the ball rather than passing really tells me a lot.
This highlights my point with a Fred comparison
https://www.football365.com/news/feature-fred-man-utd-comparison-ndidi-thiago-rice-kante
Rice is right up there in passes completed but then falls like a stone when passes are broken down into progressive and key but shoots back up in interceptions.
Rice stars bluffs us because of the position he plays. The same way Maguire stats are good on the eyes as well
https://www.sportbible.com/football...-of-the-best-defenders-in-the-league-20210303

There's not much use in looking at year old stats. The below links take you to their stats for this season and are the most comprehensive and credible that I know of (happy to see any links to something better). They also grade the players against all other players in their position in the league on a per 90 minute basis. You can also compare them against all players in their position in the top 5 European leagues, although that's on the past 365 day basis.

https://fbref.com/en/players/1c7012b8/scout/11160/Declan-Rice-Scouting-Report

https://fbref.com/en/players/d93c2511/scout/11160/Scott-McTominay-Scouting-Report

The comparison of Rice and McT is a weird one anyway because they don't play the same role, at least McT is better playing as an 8 rather than a 6 so they would play together a lot if they were in the same squad.

 

[arthurka]

Sorry, I love McTominay, but he's not in the same bracket. Rice is better in many of the most important defensive attributes. He's a bit like of you infused McTominay with some of Matic' best skills.

I just don't see how we could be sure of that. Had McT played since he was 19 every single game in the middle of the park for them I think he would have become a 100m West ham dynamo. I might be wrong but who knows.

 

[cyberman]

There's not much use in looking at year old stats in an article that can be as selective as they like. The below links take you to their stats for this season and are the most comprehensive and credible that I know of (happy to see any links to something better).

https://fbref.com/en/players/1c7012b8/scout/11160/Declan-Rice-Scouting-Report

https://fbref.com/en/players/d93c2511/scout/11160/Scott-McTominay-Scouting-Report

They’re only from last March!
I’d take this season as an outlier. Both sides are playing like shit and both midfields have spent the season getting torn apart through the middle by lower sides. I know it’s a huge benefit of the doubt but if we are going by this season then Rice nor any Utd midfielder is the answer.
Otherwise the question becomes does Rice becoming a bit more expansive this season lessen his defensive output and the teams midfield solidity? Teams are constantly getting at their back 4 and are just peppering their goal

 

[Nou_Camp99]

If he genuinely wants to come there's little West Ham can do though.

He's under contract so they can do quite a lot with the fee.

I like him and think he's a good player but I wouldn't pay what I imagine Westham would ask for. It's Maguire situation all over again.

 

[Deery]

I think for the position played even £60m would be a massive offer, not saying Rice isn’t good or he’s worse than McTominay but he just doesn’t scream to me we should splash out massively on him.

Tchouameni could be got for around £40m I guess and he seems to me a very good player, actually seems more of a midfielder than Rice (this is just eye test no stats) I think to even a budget out over a full squad DM isn’t the be all and end all.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

They’re only from last March!
I’d take this season as an outlier. Both sides are playing like shit and both midfields have spent the season getting torn apart through the middle by lower sides. I know it’s a huge benefit of the doubt but if we are going by this season then Rice nor any Utd midfielder is the answer.
Otherwise the question becomes does Rice becoming a bit more expansive this season lessen his defensive output and the teams midfield solidity? Teams are constantly getting at their back 4 and are just peppering their goal

You can use that site to compare their xG and xGA from last season. Their average xGA per game last year was 1.27, this season it's 1.28. Their xG this season is 1.45 whilst this season it was 1.42. At least from that measure there appears to be not a great deal of difference in their defensive vulnerability and attacking potency from last season.

 

[phelans shorts]

The thing with the price is that whilst the player may have a deemed value of 65 million or whatever, the stuff that you can’t quantify does massively add to that. He’s as natural a leader as there is in the league right now, and that’s something that you do have to pay a premium for. It’s alright going looking for his Scandinavian equivalent or whatever to try to save a few quid, but would that player have that same effect?

If Rice were to be signed (and I suspect he will) then you are legitimately talking about a potential future captain too, and that can have a massive effect on a side having the right person to lead them into battle. Stats can be useful but they’re not the be all and end all, Rice is an absolutely top drawer midfielder and would have a massive effect even just freeing other players up from some of their current defensive duties