But at the same time you can't have all your hopes for creativity on the shoulders of one player that when out of form or double marked the whole team crumbles. DM players for the big teams are no longer pure destroyers, they are also great passers and good dribblers. There are exceptions of course, but for the most part this is the type of DM most big clubs are looking for, and so should we.
Declan Rice
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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I'm 100% in agreement with that comment, and that's why I think Rice would be a great signing for us, because he can anchor that Midfield and allow us two more creative and attack minded Midfielders in that department. For example Maddison & Pogba.
I'm not saying those two should be luxury players with no defensive responsibilities, but the emphasis is on an attacking 5 that has creativity and pace.
Additionally, Rice would offer tactical flexiblity, in that he is equally comfortable at CB, and could drop in alongside Maguire, or switch into a CB 3 when the needs arises.
Yet another way of looking at it, it would potentially mean that we could ship off Matic plus a surplus CB such as Jones...
That's a good point. One question i have, is Rice so, so good in his defensive game as a DM to warrant his buy rather then a more playmaker type DM?
I haven't said that. A 3 men midfield with Rice/Mctominay, a hardworking deep lying playmaker and Pogba should do the trick. We also need a top quality RW and striker.
People were happy to take AWB for his defensive ability and hope he can improve on the ball as he gets older and gets used to playing in a more attacking team. Are people not willing to do the same with Rice?
Not when ones a midfielder, ball playing is vital to a modern midfielder, not as vital for a wing back.
The difference is AWB is world class defensively.
Rice isn't. He looks like Matic with anchor weights on his ankles when tracking back especially.
He has good potential but if he wasn't English (or Irish whatever) then people wouldn't be looking at him in the same way IMO.
Since when AWB is world class in any aspect of his game?
Since he became a united player, duh.
He's a defensive shield though, and he's not that bad on the ball that he can't do a good job at getting the ball to our more creative players and keep things ticking over. Look at his passing stats. And you could argue that being good on the ball is more important for fullbacks these days, look at Liverpool. And Spurs last night suffered massively from having Sanchez at right back. They had no width or wide threat at all down that side.
We conceded 50 goals last season so a full back who is a defensive specialist like Wan Bissaka is very welcome. We already have as many clean sheets at home as last season so it is already paying off. Rice though doesn't offer anything we don't already get from Scott and the biggest issue with our midfield right now is a lack of creativity with only Pogba providing any ability to change a game, something Rice will not really help with.
Defensively, he's good. One-on-one with a winger, he is good too.
How many top teams actually play with a pure defensive midfielder ?
Casemiro is one but he has Kroos and Modric along with him. He is welcome if we upgrade McT and bring in a specialist midfielder. Rice and McT would be too defensive and on the ball, we just wouldn't dominate
Casemiro is one but he has Kroos and Modric along with him. He is welcome if we upgrade McT and bring in a specialist midfielder. Rice and McT would be too defensive and on the ball, we just wouldn't dominate
I think Declan Rice will go on to become a VERY good player yes…used in the right way. He will never be a creative, box-to-box player - but as a defensive midfielder - absolutely.
Being good and world class is a pretty wide gap, though.
True, I guess. For instance, we have player with "world class movement".
Liverpool?
Fabinho is quite good on the ball
So are Casemiro and Fernadinho.
Casemiro? Not sure. But yeah , the point being we need better options in midfield if we are planning to have rice .
Rice,McT,Maddison is a mid table line up for now.
World class, one of the best in the world right? Though I don't follow the non-european leagues, but I don't think you can name a lot of fullbacks who consistently shut down their flanks as much as Wan-Bissaka does. Defensively, he is one of the best around.
Agreed he's shown as an excellent tackler. I'm just thinking he still need to prove it a bit longer, and in big games, to be deemed world class.
I think the issue about Rice here is that he will cost a lot of money. With contract up to 2024, West Ham will be looking for between £60m-£80m at least. That money should be only suitable for player who can make significantly difference in the position like Viera or Keane or deep playmaker like Carrick, Alonso & Busquest or a midfielder who can cover the whole pitch like Kante which suitable for Ole's counter attack system.
Rice is too limit to be considered that much of money, there are rooms for improvement but you know that his talent isn't about playmaker or domination. His role is to be the water carrier in the team, a support player for the top player and someone like that can be found for price of 20m-40m or 45m at highest fees. Partey is one of an example of cheaper option (if his release clause is really true about 40m).
Rice is too limit to be considered that much of money, there are rooms for improvement but you know that his talent isn't about playmaker or domination. His role is to be the water carrier in the team, a support player for the top player and someone like that can be found for price of 20m-40m or 45m at highest fees. Partey is one of an example of cheaper option (if his release clause is really true about 40m).
Let's see how he does against us today.
How’d he do then?
Alright. Nothing special.
He was playing against a shit team and didn't really catch the eye.
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97% pass completion overall but that partly shows how crap our midfield were today.
Our midfield is crap full-stop and not just today tbf.
Noble was better. He’s bang average.
He's at a similar level to McTominay. They're both top class but at only a narrow range of abilities.
In McTominay's case, it's pressing, shielding the ball and (uncreative) short passing. In Rice's case, it's screeing the defence, tackling and (uncreative) long passing. Both players are good enough to be cogs in world class teams, but neither is world class in their own right. Also, they're both cogs that can only fit into specific places in functioning XIs.
If we stick with McTominay, we need a creative DLP and a hardworking creative AM (so two purchases). If we go for Rice, we need two creative B2B midfielders (three purchases altogether). Which all means that McTominay and Rice not good enough to play together since their weaknesses are so similar.
From a financial point of view, it makes sense to stick with McTominay and build around his engine. So although I'm a fan of Rice, I think he'd need to be part of an unrealistically big overhaul.
United are already playing catchup. If Rice is part of the solution, it would be a step forward and a step backward at the same time. Let's just keep McT and let him do the dirty work for a couple of new faces.
In McTominay's case, it's pressing, shielding the ball and (uncreative) short passing. In Rice's case, it's screeing the defence, tackling and (uncreative) long passing. Both players are good enough to be cogs in world class teams, but neither is world class in their own right. Also, they're both cogs that can only fit into specific places in functioning XIs.
If we stick with McTominay, we need a creative DLP and a hardworking creative AM (so two purchases). If we go for Rice, we need two creative B2B midfielders (three purchases altogether). Which all means that McTominay and Rice not good enough to play together since their weaknesses are so similar.
From a financial point of view, it makes sense to stick with McTominay and build around his engine. So although I'm a fan of Rice, I think he'd need to be part of an unrealistically big overhaul.
United are already playing catchup. If Rice is part of the solution, it would be a step forward and a step backward at the same time. Let's just keep McT and let him do the dirty work for a couple of new faces.
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This and it's a fecking scary thing in itself that the 50 year old hard man cnut Noble is again miles ahead of any of our midfielders, for yet another game running.
When you put it like that...
Yup, absolutely fecking depressing.
That one bit in the 1st half showed his worth, where he tracked the run of Rashford and disposed him of the ball. We don't have that type of midfielder who actively tracks runners. Matic would never do that, same with Pogba. I think McT would do it as he has the energy he just doesn't have that sense of positioning Rice has yet. I'm not staying Rice is the answer, because I feel for his price we could get better value, but we need that type. Out of all our central mids, only McT is prepared to win the ball back. That's not good enough in any league let alone a league as physical and competitive as the PL.
Good post. I too think you can't have both McTominay and Rice in the same mid and ever expect to be an attacking team as they are both very limited in critical areas when it comes to passing in particular.
Surprised by his speed, pretty fast player I wasn't expecting that.
He's a good player with huge potential who could be perfect in our holding midfielder slot instead of Matic.
You're looking at £80m or so again though, massive money needed for West Ham to sell.
He's a good player with huge potential who could be perfect in our holding midfielder slot instead of Matic.
You're looking at £80m or so again though, massive money needed for West Ham to sell.
He literally ran the ball off the pitch, unopposed, on a counter attack. If one of our players did that, he'd be written off. No where near worth the prices being quoted.
Not impressed one iota with him against a shite Utd team
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