Declan Rice

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Jesus seriously, even if we had won last night, spammers would have had 37 points and play villa 34 points last game, you think villa would have scored 14 goals against Spammers in their last game, as the goals difference is 13. West Spammers were safe no matter the results unless cricket score win by us last night.
Yeah but you think the West Hams wont take great delight in pointing that out?

Plus Im sure most teams dont celebrate "pretty much being safe" as much as "mathematically being safe".
 

patty123

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Yeah but you think the West Hams wont take great delight in pointing that out?

Plus Im sure most teams dont celebrate "pretty much being safe" as much as "mathematically being safe".
Point what out ?

They were safe as no matter what way you look at it pal (result wise), as villa have scored 40 goals and had a 13 GD to spammers and and even if they do beat them on the final day, most likely will go down depending on Watford result.

Or do you think they (spammers) will get beaten 14/0 on Sunday ? That's a rhetorical question by the way.
 

In Rainbows

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How much do you reckon he would cost compared to Camavinga?
 

Lash

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How much do you reckon he would cost compared to Camavinga?
Right now miles more, but next season with Rennes in Europe and who knows how West ham will get on, could be a very different story. I genuinely see them asking 70-80m for Rice. I think he should cost what Wan bissaka cost, max.
 

Berbasbullet

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Point what out ?

They were safe as no matter what way you look at it pal (result wise), as villa have scored 40 goals and had a 13 GD to spammers and and even if they do beat them on the final day, most likely will go down depending on Watford result.

Or do you think they (spammers) will get beaten 14/0 on Sunday ? That's a rhetorical question by the way.
Well it’s in their hands to do that...
 

RooneyLegend

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Don't see why anyone wants English players as most of them are overpriced for reasons I'm not all that aware of. We got Bruno for the same price as Wan Bissaka, let that sink in. Steer away from that market, it'll lead us to continued mediocrity.
 

Bastian

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Don't see why anyone wants English players as most of them are overpriced for reasons I'm not all that aware of. We got Bruno for the same price as Wan Bissaka, let that sink in. Steer away from that market, it'll lead us to continued mediocrity.
I don't think most people think like that, but it still ticks a few boxes - they're familiar with the league, can create a tighter dressing room etc. But I agree, talent and character should always be the key criteria.

Btw, Bruno cost somewhere between Maguire and AWB. And his taking to the league is an anomaly.
 

0le

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Don't see why anyone wants English players as most of them are overpriced for reasons I'm not all that aware of. We got Bruno for the same price as Wan Bissaka, let that sink in. Steer away from that market, it'll lead us to continued mediocrity.
I think it is probably more likely that English clubs are richer and therefore can afford to demand more money because they don't have a need to sell.
 

Dante

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Don't see why anyone wants English players as most of them are overpriced for reasons I'm not all that aware of. We got Bruno for the same price as Wan Bissaka, let that sink in. Steer away from that market, it'll lead us to continued mediocrity.
Zaha will cost a bomb, and so will Ndidi. They're non-English players from the same clubs as AWB and Maguire.

The price of a player is largely determined by how rich the selling club is and whether the player is an important first teamer.

If United wanted to buy a non-English first team player from Bayern/Real/Barca at a similar age and quality level, they would be super expensive as well. More expensive than an equivalent player from Villareal, for example.

English clubs are all rich, and their players are all PL-proven. That counts for most of it. Being English adds a small amount to the price because it guarantees that players are less likely to become unsettled or want to move abroad. But the so-called English premium is significantly smaller than the other factors.

Football is a business. Foreign owners and managers don't give a shit about nationality. There's no conspiracy amongst them to make English players overpriced.
 
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Hugh Jass

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If Rice will cost 80 million just walk away. Sign some less known person cheaper.
 

Robertd0803

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Point what out ?

They were safe as no matter what way you look at it pal (result wise), as villa have scored 40 goals and had a 13 GD to spammers and and even if they do beat them on the final day, most likely will go down depending on Watford result.

Or do you think they (spammers) will get beaten 14/0 on Sunday ? That's a rhetorical question by the way.
Enduring safety at Old Trafford. Again.

And pal? Nope.

Anyway.
 

dbs235

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I think it is probably more likely that English clubs are richer and therefore can afford to demand more money because they don't have a need to sell.
This is correct. Good proof is West Ham's asking price for Diop too.
 

Inigo Montoya

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This is correct. Good proof is West Ham's asking price for Diop too.
It tends to be when the richer clubs come asking...they up the fee.

Remember when we enquired about Defoe;they asked ridiculous money at the time then sold him to Spurs for £6 million which was less than they asked us for. Bastards
 

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Rice is a Chelsea boy through and through. If its a choice between Chelsea and any other English team right now, it'll be Chelsea. Only reason he might not play for us next season or two is the arm and leg Westham will undoubtedly demand as he recently signed a long term contract. He'll have to demand the move and Westham accept a Barkley +Bats swap but I can't see that happening. Its sad though as I think he'll be the ideal CDM for Lampard’s 3 in midfield.
 

Inigo Montoya

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Rice is a Chelsea boy through and through. If its a choice between Chelsea and any other English team right now, it'll be Chelsea. Only reason he might not play for us next season or two is the arm and leg Westham will undoubtedly demand as he recently signed a long term contract. He'll have to demand the move and Westham accept a Barkley +Bats swap but I can't see that happening. Its sad though as I think he'll be the ideal CDM for Lampard’s 3 in midfield.
It's no longer as decisive as you think. With agents and reps all advising, meeting the coaches,looking at the vision of the club etc...there's a lot to think about before signing.

Utd could easily match the salary but the London pull could be strong. In terms of the world standing and the stature of the club globally, Chelsea aren't even in the same league. Only players who join the club suddenly realise the size of it.
 

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I don't think most people think like that, but it still ticks a few boxes - they're familiar with the league, can create a tighter dressing room etc. But I agree, talent and character should always be the key criteria.

Btw, Bruno cost somewhere between Maguire and AWB. And his taking to the league is an anomaly.
No he's not, plenty of players from other countries have taken to the league rather easily. Some have failed, but some prem to prem transfers have also failed. All that tighter dressing room talk is just talk really. You really don't need an English core for a tight dressing room. You'll likely have a lot of English players due to the homegrown rules anyways.

Maybe I'm mistaken but Transfermarkt lists them at the same price which is shocking. Maguire cost more than Van Djik for example which is madness.
 

RooneyLegend

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I think it is probably more likely that English clubs are richer and therefore can afford to demand more money because they don't have a need to sell.
Whatever the reason most of the time it's not worth it.
 

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Whatever the reason most of the time it's not worth it.
Vast majority of the time buying foreign players post Fergie hasn’t been worth it. After he retired we mostly bought from abroad and it was an unmitigated disaster. From overpriced players that didn’t settle like Di Maria, to washed up pros looking for a pay day like Schweinsteiger to hyped up but ultimately inept youngsters like Depay.

I think most fans genuinely feel positive about the side for the first time since Fergie left and that’s partly been down to Ole’s transfer policy. He wants an English core in the dressing room and it’s worked for him so far.
 

E-mal

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We will get better value for money elsewhere, is time we become very wise with our signing.
Spent an awful lot on Maguire who is frankly not even close to worth the fee.
 

RooneyLegend

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Zaha will cost a bomb, and so will Ndidi. They're non-English players from the same clubs as AWB and Maguire.

The price of a player is largely determined by how rich the selling club is and whether the player is an important first teamer.

If United wanted to buy a non-English first team player from Bayern/Real/Barca at a similar age and quality level, they would be super expensive as well. More expensive than an equivalent player from Villareal, for example.

English clubs are all rich, and their players are all PL-proven. That counts for most of it. Being English adds a small amount to the price because it guarantees that players are less likely to become unsettled or want to move abroad. But the so-called English premium is significantly smaller than the other factors.

Football is a business. Foreign owners and managers don't give a shit about nationality. There's no conspiracy amongst them to make English players overpriced.
Hence no one signed Zaha and rightfully so. If it was us, we'd have probably paid the price. Clubs that know what they're doing walk away from these crazy valuations. Pretty sure Rice is going to cost more than Ndidi.

Not every club in the league is super rich, no reason to treat them like they are. Again, this pl proven tag is a sur fire way to waste money in the market. Mata, Schneiderlin, Sanchez and Lukaku were all PL proven and look how that ended.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Hence no one signed Zaha and rightfully so. If it was us, we'd have probably paid the price. Clubs that know what they're doing walk away from these crazy valuations. Pretty sure Rice is going to cost more than Ndidi.

Not every club in the league is super rich, no reason to treat them like they are. Again, this pl proven tag is a sur fire way to waste money in the market. Mata, Schneiderlin, Sanchez and Lukaku were all PL proven and look how that ended.
I wonder which are the English players that United have bought that ‘most of the time haven’t been worth it’ are? As far as I can see most of the English players that we ‘overpaid’ for turned out to be worth it when all was said and done: Palister, Rio, Rooney and Carrick all turned out well enough.
 

E-mal

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Vast majority of the time buying foreign players post Fergie hasn’t been worth it. After he retired we mostly bought from abroad and it was an unmitigated disaster. From overpriced players that didn’t settle like Di Maria, to washed up pros looking for a pay day like Schweinsteiger to hyped up but ultimately inept youngsters like Depay.

I think most fans genuinely feel positive about the side for the first time since Fergie left and that’s partly been down to Ole’s transfer policy. He wants an English core in the dressing room and it’s worked for him so far.
He has enough English core, can he now go ahead and sign players actually worth their fee?
If and when we get Sancho, we will have 5 guaranteed English players in the first eleven, that's perhaps the highest after Sheffield United.
Personally feel Benaceer is a better value for money based on their performances this season and that will leave fund to get Grealish who I think will take the dimensions of this team to another level.
 

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I wonder which are the English players that United have bought that ‘most of the time haven’t been worth it’ are? As far as I can see most of the English players that we ‘overpaid’ for turned out to be worth it when all was said and done: Palister, Rio, Rooney and Carrick all turned out well enough.
Since 2012, the only English players that United have paid for are:

Lee Grant, Nick Powell, Luke Shaw, Maguire, Wan-Bissaka
 

Dante

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Hence no one signed Zaha and rightfully so. If it was us, we'd have probably paid the price. Clubs that know what they're doing walk away from these crazy valuations. Pretty sure Rice is going to cost more than Ndidi.

Not every club in the league is super rich, no reason to treat them like they are. Again, this pl proven tag is a sur fire way to waste money in the market. Mata, Schneiderlin, Sanchez and Lukaku were all PL proven and look how that ended.
The bottom club in the PL gets around £100m per season for just existing. Then you can add cup appearances and gate receipts on top of that. They're all loaded.

If Paul Pogba was playing for Stoke City, he'd cost less than he does playing for Manchester United. The richer the parent club, the more expensive the price. It's pretty basic stuff.

If United felt that Lindelof was a vital member of the squad who we didn't want to lose, we'd put a huge price tag on him. Meanwhile, Smalling is deemed surplus to requirements and will go for cheap. It's the same logic for Zaha - who is from the Ivory Coast, by the way, and goes against your theory.

Everyone in the PL is rich compared to the rest of the world.
 

RooneyLegend

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Vast majority of the time buying foreign players post Fergie hasn’t been worth it. After he retired we mostly bought from abroad and it was an unmitigated disaster. From overpriced players that didn’t settle like Di Maria, to washed up pros looking for a pay day like Schweinsteiger to hyped up but ultimately inept youngsters like Depay.

I think most fans genuinely feel positive about the side for the first time since Fergie left and that’s partly been down to Ole’s transfer policy. He wants an English core in the dressing room and it’s worked for him so far.
They simple truth is we've been signing the wrong player without a real plan. Washed up managers have come in and wasted club funds. Other clubs have been signing players from the same market and been getting it right.

Anytime you base your strategy on nationality, league, etc you're asking for trouble and are going to be taken for a ride. Sign based on quality and the sort of team you're building, that makes far more sense.

What's worked so far is that we finally managed to make a great signing. The team before him was like a fish out of water, flopping about everywhere. Our ratio of good signings to mediocre ones to bad ones is frightening at this point.
 
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Rice will only leave to go to Chelsea. You may as well forget about him. His whole family are hardcore Chelsea fans with a large number of them having season tickets. Rice himself had one before he had to focus on football. This isn't Sancho level where they were his favourite team, Rice was the type of kid that had the wallpaper and duvet set.

https://www.thechelseachronicle.com...says-he-would-love-to-play-with-chelsea-star/
Really doesn’t mean anything. Sterling dreamed of playing for United. Kane dreamed of playing for Arsenal.
 

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He has enough English core, can he now go ahead and sign players actually worth their fee?
If and when we get Sancho, we will have 5 guaranteed English players in the first eleven, that's perhaps the highest after Sheffield United.
Personally feel Benaceer is a better value for money based on their performances this season and that will leave fund to get Grealish who I think will take the dimensions of this team to another level.
It depends how you frame ‘worth their fee’. Take Maguire for instance. £85m was well over the top on the basis of ability and reputation alone. What you will get from him though is 45+ apps per year, no desire to seek a move elsewhere and a solid character (by all accounts) in the dressing room. We may look back in 7 years time at a guy with 300 apps for us who helped us get back to the top table in football so we may feel he’s worth the fee. You can spend a third of his fee on a Memphis (he’d probably cost £40m in todays market) and get no value whatsoever. Ultimately you can’t evaluate if Maguire was worth his fee until he plays his last game for United.

Getting value from abroad isn’t as straight forward as it seems anyway. Pepe and Kepa cost £75m a piece and have looked worse than Maguire considering expectations.

Everyone would love to get that bargain, home or abroad, but it’s easier said than done (especially when you’re Man Utd).
 

Classical Mechanic

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They simple truth is we've been signing the wrong player without a real plan. Washed up managers have come in and wasted club funds. Other clubs have been signing players from the same market and been getting it right.

Anytime you base your strategy on nationality, league, etc you're asking for trouble and are going to be taken for a ride. Sign based on quality and the sort of team you're building, that makes far more sense.

What's worked so far is that we finally managed to make a great signing. The team before him was like a fish out of water, flopping about everywhere. Our ratio of good signings to mediocre ones to bad ones is frightening at this point.
I don’t think that you should have an ‘English only’ policy as it’s inherently stupid on multiple levels. That said, dismissing Rice as a player (a lot of people have been) simply because he’s English is illogical too. Assess him on the merits of his football and perhaps you might consider signing him for an extra £20m to his foreign equivalent because he’ll settle seamlessly, not have to adjust and won’t want to leave and need replacing.

Look at it this way. We signed Fred for £50m, like a lot of foreign players it took him a year to adjust, amortise that over his 5 year deal and you’ve paid £10m for him to do nothing. Point is that ’value’ is more complex than it seems.

All that said, I’m not a massive advocate of signing rice right now as I think we have more important issues to allocate those funds to rather than that position.
 
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TheReligion

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Rice is a Chelsea boy through and through. If its a choice between Chelsea and any other English team right now, it'll be Chelsea. Only reason he might not play for us next season or two is the arm and leg Westham will undoubtedly demand as he recently signed a long term contract. He'll have to demand the move and Westham accept a Barkley +Bats swap but I can't see that happening. Its sad though as I think he'll be the ideal CDM for Lampard’s 3 in midfield.
Yes just like Sancho. Nailed on Chelsea.
 

RooneyLegend

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The bottom club in the PL gets around £100m per season for just existing. Then you can add cup appearances and gate receipts on top of that. They're all loaded.

If Paul Pogba was playing for Stoke City, he'd cost less than he does playing for Manchester United. The richer the parent club, the more expensive the price. It's pretty basic stuff.

If United felt that Lindelof was a vital member of the squad who we didn't want to lose, we'd put a huge price tag on him. Meanwhile, Smalling is deemed surplus to requirements and will go for cheap. It's the same logic for Zaha - who is from the Ivory Coast, by the way, and goes against your theory.

Everyone in the PL is rich compared to the rest of the world.
Only the traditional top 6 are rich in the prem, the rest aren't all that rich. What the prem doesn't have is poor clubs, which you do get in the other big leagues when you get past the well known names.

Your West Hams aren't richer than European football playing clubs in the other top leagues even the non elite ones. There's a 200 million euro difference between the richest traditional top 6 club and the prem club on the Deloitte money list.

Some clubs just know how to get maximum value from their players, some don't. Benfica aren't all that rich but managed to swindle 100 million + out of Atletico. Poor Barca is always taken to the cleaners these days. We get taken to the cleaners quite regularly too.

Zaha proves nothing cause they haven't managed to sell him. They set a price, and no one felt he's worth it. We'll see how much he eventually goes for. Maguire was 80 million, Van Djik was 75 million. Bought from similar sized clubs. One club got fair value, the other got ripped off.

Prem to prem transfers are expensive, then you add the English tax and the fee becomes ridiculous. Maddison was being touted as a 100 quid player already ffs. Despite injuries, some still value Kane at 150 million. How does any of this make sense?

If your valuation is guided by something outside of the quality of the player and how fits into your side, you're doing something wrong.
 

E-mal

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It depends how you frame ‘worth their fee’. Take Maguire for instance. £85m was well over the top on the basis of ability and reputation alone. What you will get from him though is 45+ apps per year, no desire to seek a move elsewhere and a solid character (by all accounts) in the dressing room. We may look back in 7 years time at a guy with 300 apps for us who helped us get back to the top table in football so we may feel he’s worth the fee. You can spend a third of his fee on a Memphis (he’d probably cost £40m in todays market) and get no value whatsoever. Ultimately you can’t evaluate if Maguire was worth his fee until he plays his last game for United.

Getting value from abroad isn’t as straight forward as it seems anyway. Pepe and Kepa cost £75m a piece and have looked worse than Maguire considering expectations.

Everyone would love to get that bargain, home or abroad, but it’s easier said than done (especially when you’re Man Utd).
Laporte was cheaper than Maguire and has looked a class above. Stones was bought for 50m and has looked poorer than Laporte. Walker has been worth every penny paid for him I would say and one could see even before his transfer that he is a genuinely good player with little weakness. My point is regardless of where one is buying from, the question should be am I getting value for money?
You can't go about signing players because they will stay with the club forever. All of the city players they've bought have not left at their prime. Why is that? Success!!!

Kane at some point will seek to leave spurs despite being an academy player.
Greenwood will leave if he outgrows the club and we don't keep up with his ambition. That's how life is.



We overpaid for Maguire by a considerable margin despite some of his irreconcilable weaknesses. Same applies to Wan Bissaka for whom his weaknesses at that price leaves me quite irritated. Look, AWB will most likely turn out very reliable for us, but I feel if this team takes another step forward he might just stick out like a sore thumb due to his inability on the ball.

I have no issue paying for Sancho at that price because he is an elite talent, Maguire and AWB are not. Having said that, they might even turn out to be the ones that are successful at the club. However, if Sancho fails as a transfer it's because as a team and club we have failed to meet the expectations of this early promise.
 

RooneyLegend

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I don’t think that you should have an ‘English only’ policy as it’s inherently stupid on multiple levels. That said, dismissing Rice as a player (a lot of people have been) simply because he’s English is illogical too. Assess him on the merits of his football and perhaps you might consider signing him for an extra £20m to his foreign equivalent because he’ll settle seamlessly, not have to adjust and won’t want to leave and need replacing.

Look at it this way. We signed Fred for £50m, like a lot of foreign players it took him a year to adjust, amortise that over his 5 year deal and you’ve paid £10m for him to do nothing. Point is that ’value’ is more complex than it seems.

All that said, I’m not a massive advocate of signing rice right now as I think we have more important issues to allocate those funds to rather than that position.
Given the numbers I've seen for Rice, he'd go for De Jong money. Let that sink in. He'd go for the same price as someone that was fishing out football lessons at the Bernabeu and at Juventus stadium. Something doesn't sound right about that.

Pay 20 million over the top of a price cause he's supposedly PL proven? Have people not learnt from Schneiderlin, Mata, Sanchez, Torres, Benteke, Carrol, Barkley, Stones, Lukaku, Sigurdson? All bought for big money, all didn't produce as expected. Those signings regularly go pear shaped as well.
 

ZolaWasMagic

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Yes just like Sancho. Nailed on Chelsea.
fair point and i wholeheartedly admit i was one who thought Sancho would join us because we were his favourite club and the London pull etc. if we'd have bid. But alas the club and Frank had other targets.

Sancho admits we were his fave club, but Rice probably still wears his Chelsea shirts round his house when not training. He's diehard, whole family are
 

theklr

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fair point and i wholeheartedly admit i was one who thought Sancho would join us because we were his favourite club and the London pull etc. if we'd have bid. But alas the club and Frank had other targets.

Sancho admits we were his fave club, but Rice probably still wears his Chelsea shirts round his house when not training. He's diehard, whole family are
Was Lampard that supposedly said no, wasnt it?
 

TheReligion

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Laporte was cheaper than Maguire and has looked a class above. Stones was bought for 50m and has looked poorer than Laporte. Walker has been worth every penny paid for him I would say and one could see even before his transfer that he is a genuinely good player with little weakness. My point is regardless of where one is buying from, the question should be am I getting value for money?
You can't go about signing players because they will stay with the club forever. All of the city players they've bought have not left at their prime. Why is that? Success!!!

Kane at some point will seek to leave spurs despite being an academy player.
Greenwood will leave if he outgrows the club and we don't keep up with his ambition. That's how life is.



We overpaid for Maguire by a considerable margin despite some of his irreconcilable weaknesses. Same applies to Wan Bissaka for whom his weaknesses at that price leaves me quite irritated. Look, AWB will most likely turn out very reliable for us, but I feel if this team takes another step forward he might just stick out like a sore thumb due to his inability on the ball.

I have no issue paying for Sancho at that price because he is an elite talent, Maguire and AWB are not. Having said that, they might even turn out to be the ones that are successful at the club. However, if Sancho fails as a transfer it's because as a team and club we have failed to meet the expectations of this early promise.
I'm not sure where you're going with this. Laporte was bought before the CB market went through the roof (because of what Liverpool paid for VVD). City have spent an absolute fortune on players including £40+ million on Mangala who left on a free transfer, over £50m on John Stones and just shy of £40m on Otamendi. This is all several years ago when those fees for centre halves were record deals. Then you look at their full backs and the various goalkeepers they have purchased.. hardly been a shining light of value for money and how to do good business. They just have unlimited funds and if you throw so much of it around you'll pick up a Laporte eventually.

A top team isn't made up for eleven "elite level talents" either. It's not how football works.

Your expectations are fanciful to be quite frank and it's no wonder you feel slightly irritated.
 

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Rice is a Chelsea boy through and through. If its a choice between Chelsea and any other English team right now, it'll be Chelsea. Only reason he might not play for us next season or two is the arm and leg Westham will undoubtedly demand as he recently signed a long term contract. He'll have to demand the move and Westham accept a Barkley +Bats swap but I can't see that happening. Its sad though as I think he'll be the ideal CDM for Lampard’s 3 in midfield.
Is this still a thing? Footballers don't care about that shite anymore quite clearly. Your very own John Terry was a die hard United fan supposedly, as was Sterling. The player will go wherever the best offer is on display, simple.