Declan Rice

[Crashoutcassius]

Reading this thread with so many vastly contrasting opinions it is clear this isn't straight forward. People mentioning playmakers and box to box players as defensive midfielders etc. What is clear to me - anyone who thinks Fred is rubbish will be greatly disappointed with any of the names in this thread

I also don't think we should buy anyone in the hope that pogba stays and then comes good... That is absolutely ridiculous. We need a pivot players for a two with Fred who is a pogba upgrade

 

[Bilbo]

If it means we can just play him instead of both Fred and McTominay then the fee will be worth it

There isn't a player in the world that is capable of doing the job of two others.

 

[Devil may care]

That’s a frightening thought. We’d desperately need to sign a Sancho level wide playmaker to compensate.

We haven't seen much of what Van de Beek can do in the role yet but I'm sure we'll see if Sancho or Grealish are obtainable.

 

[lsd]

There isn't a player in the world that is capable of doing the job of two others.

We don't need two players doing the same job. That is our biggest problem at the moment. Neither Fred or McTominay are capable of playing that position on their own. Matic is but his legs are going.

Rice playing there would free up a place for another creative midfielder

 

[MU655]

Tackles per game
Romeu (3.5), Allan (3.4), Kante (2.9), Phillips (2.9), Hojbjerg (2.8), Fred (2.7), Neves (2.3), Rice (1.9)

Interceptions per game
Kante (2.3), Rice (2.1), Jorginho (1.6), Fred (1.6), Neves (1.6)

Total tackles and interceptions per game
Kante (5.2), Romeu (5), Phillips (4.6), Allan (4.4), Fred (4.3), Hojbjerg (4), Rice (4), Neves (3.9)

Don't these stats prove that we already have the perfect Kante type player in Fred? I've always thought it and these stats back me up. We just need to play him with Pogba or Donny for the perfect balance. I don't know why Ole won't try it.
We play McFred and then wonder why we aren't creative. Play Frogba.

Yep. This is why I don't think it is the position we should be buying in. The only ones above Fred are all two or more years older than him anyway, so he even has longevity on them. I feel signing a box-to-box player in McTominay's position and signing Grealish are what we actually need to do.

We seem to be most creative when we play Fernandes, Pogba, and Fred. But usually, we play a diamond with McTominay who, unfortunately, doesn't contribute a whole lot in possession and so it makes it more difficult to dominate.

But Rice is promising, racking up these numbers after just turning 22 this month is impressive. Most of those are aged 25+, so he will be a good signing for a club that actually needs him.

 

[Bilbo]

We don't need two players doing the same job. That is our biggest problem at the moment. Neither Fred or McTominay are capable of playing that position on their own. Matic is but his legs are going.

Rice playing there would free up a place for another creative midfielder

I dont think McFred do do the same job. Together they give the team a balance that our other pairings do not. Id personally still like us to give Donny a run of games in that position before we go out and spend, and i think we will before the season is done.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

Reading this thread with so many vastly contrasting opinions it is clear this isn't straight forward. People mentioning playmakers and box to box players as defensive midfielders etc. What is clear to me - anyone who thinks Fred is rubbish will be greatly disappointed with any of the names in this thread

I also don't think we should buy anyone in the hope that pogba stays and then comes good... That is absolutely ridiculous. We need a pivot players for a two with Fred who is a pogba upgrade

So you’re saying upgrade Pogba, to cover for Fred

This is beyond thinking Fred is rubbish, you’re saying upgrade the better player ffs!
EDIT: To clarify I’d keep both as they’re both good players but you don’t sell Pogba & act as if Fred is better, you keep your best players & add to it; you don’t sell the player who was player of the tournament last time we won in Europe when his back up is some Troy Deeney called out for dwelling on the ball.

 

[Bebestation]

I think Fred is great but I think he needs to move around and press to play his game. We cant do that every game and when we do we need some stability beside him aswell and that's why Ole plays Mctomminay next to him in my opinion.

Fred is not the really the stable type of CDM player than can bring some freedom for other players like Bruno, Pogba or even Grealish because he needs that stability himself to provide pressing ability.

(I'm not talking about dropping players and buying players to create a strict first 11 because that isnt going to happen with Ole - he is going to rotate players nearly every week when he feels he can, that's going to happen whether its Pogba, Fred, Mctomminay, Rice or VDB).

Matic does need to be replaced soon and he is the one who allows us to be a bit more creative because he provides more protective in a mode stagnant coordinated defensive covering way. Something you wonder and hope if Declan Rice can do at a big club.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

So you’re saying upgrade Pogba, to cover for Fred

This is beyond thinking Fred is rubbish, you’re saying upgrade the better player ffs!
EDIT: To clarify I’d keep both as they’re both good players but you don’t sell Pogba & act as if Fred is better, you keep your best players & add to it; you don’t sell the player who was player of the tournament last time we won in Europe when his back up is some Troy Deeney called out for dwelling on the ball.

I'd say you have misread or misunderstood. Pogba is leaving so we need a replacement, the player should be better than pogba is in the pivot, which is a fairly low bar since pogba is so inconsistent as shown over years and years in pivot

 

[Tallis]

Let’s see how he does at the Euro. He is young and don’t think any other club is in real hot pursuit (Frank May want him but not sure if he is going to be around in the summer). As such, we can wait and watch.

Personally I am not convinced he adds a lot as compared to what we already have. I would prefer to sign an elite level DM in the summer.

 

[MadDogg]

So you’re saying upgrade Pogba, to cover for Fred

This is beyond thinking Fred is rubbish, you’re saying upgrade the better player ffs!
EDIT: To clarify I’d keep both as they’re both good players but you don’t sell Pogba & act as if Fred is better, you keep your best players & add to it; you don’t sell the player who was player of the tournament last time we won in Europe when his back up is some Troy Deeney called out for dwelling on the ball.

I presume he, like many others, believe Pogba will never be able to consistently play at his best in a deeper midfield two role. With Pogba almost certainly leaving anyway it's an opportunity to replace him with somebody more suited to that role. And then more than likely Fred will remain as the best partner for that player, unless we intend to go out and buy two new central midfielders which is very unlikely.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

I'd say you have misread or misunderstood. Pogba is leaving so we need a replacement, the player should be better than pogba is in the pivot, which is a fairly low bar since pogba is so inconsistent as shown over years and years in pivot

I presume he, like many others, believe Pogba will never be able to consistently play at his best in a deeper midfield two role. With Pogba almost certainly leaving anyway it's an opportunity to replace him with somebody more suited to that role. And then more than likely Fred will remain as the best partner for that player, unless we intend to go out and buy two new central midfielders which is very unlikely.

Good points/posts gents, thank you.

Looking at the double pivot; it’s necessity comes into play in the big games against the likes of Liverpool today imo.

My worry with Fred as nailed on starter in a double pivot is that we go into the majority of games favourites & his best assets are generally off the ball in those bigger games. We could sign a better McTominay to accompany Fred but I’ve seen enough against low block teams to see Fred’s talents don’t necessarily win games, they help in not losing some big ones.

I’d argue the bar pre-Bruno run after he came in wasn’t particularly high from Fred. I’m unashamedly supportive of Pogba in favour of most posters on here so I’m more than happy to say I’ve missed something but Fred has never stood out to me more than Pogba as he seemingly has for some on here. We’ve done well in some big games he’s played the pivot & been overrun in others; similar to Pogba.

OgS is seemingly understanding better than before that Pogba in the pivot is only suited against lower block sides so say he goes [likely] I’m unsure who an ideal partner would be to get the best out of Fred in most games as he generally gets called upon for solidity not domination.

OgS is getting his tactical choices far better currently though so aid argue we’re not as wedded to the pivot as we were which is something I’ve been wanting; most weeks I don’t think we need it.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Tackles per game
Romeu (3.5), Allan (3.4), Kante (2.9), Phillips (2.9), Hojbjerg (2.8), Fred (2.7), Neves (2.3), Rice (1.9)

Interceptions per game
Kante (2.3), Rice (2.1), Jorginho (1.6), Fred (1.6), Neves (1.6)

Total tackles and interceptions per game
Kante (5.2), Romeu (5), Phillips (4.6), Allan (4.4), Fred (4.3), Hojbjerg (4), Rice (4), Neves (3.9)

Don't these stats prove that we already have the perfect Kante type player in Fred? I've always thought it and these stats back me up. We just need to play him with Pogba or Donny for the perfect balance. I don't know why Ole won't try it.
We play McFred and then wonder why we aren't creative. Play Frogba.

Yep. This is why I don't think it is the position we should be buying in. The only ones above Fred are all two or more years older than him anyway, so he even has longevity on them. I feel signing a box-to-box player in McTominay's position and signing Grealish are what we actually need to do.

We seem to be most creative when we play Fernandes, Pogba, and Fred. But usually, we play a diamond with McTominay who, unfortunately, doesn't contribute a whole lot in possession and so it makes it more difficult to dominate.

But Rice is promising, racking up these numbers after just turning 22 this month is impressive. Most of those are aged 25+, so he will be a good signing for a club that actually needs him.

I think the stats don’t show the bigger picture without watching the player himself. Rice has been playing next to Soucek this season which reduced his defensive stats number since he has better help defensively from his partner.

if you check his stats in 19/20 and 18/19, he had much much higher number. 19/20 tackles (3.1) & interception (2), 18/19 tackles (2.9) & interception (1.5).

 

[Eugenius]

We should be signing someone in mold of Carrick or Matic. Someone who can pass through the lines from deep and has a bit of composure.

Fred and McT can break up play but are let down by first touch and playing wrong passes at the wrong time.

 

[theklr]

Werent there an article on the athletic a while ago that Rice was Lampard's preferred choice but the board didnt want him? If that was the case I think the Chelsea links are becoming weaker by the minute

 

[Lentwood]

Rice would be a great replacement for Matic. I’d love to see McTominay and Rice together in that double-pivot. For me, they might not be flashy but that’s a midfield two built for the modern PL if ever I saw one!

 

[Berbasbullet]

Rice would be a great replacement for Matic. I’d love to see McTominay and Rice together in that double-pivot. For me, they might not be flashy but that’s a midfield two built for the modern PL if ever I saw one!

Rice and Fred would be better in my opinion.

 

[Lentwood]

Rice and Fred would be better in my opinion.

I would play all three in games against the top 6, especially away. Fred is the best at harrying opponents into mistakes, making interceptions and tackles but I feel Rice and McTominay have the better passing ranges and physical advantages.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

We should be signing someone in mold of Carrick or Matic. Someone who can pass through the lines from deep and has a bit of composure.

Fred and McT can break up play but are let down by first touch and playing wrong passes at the wrong time.

Rice to me is like Matic, have composure on the ball and still can make decent pass. Not Carrick or Alonso though, but still has composure on the ball. Rice is definitely different to Kante or Ndidi.

 

[gajender]

I would play all three in games against the top 6, especially away. Fred is the best at harrying opponents into mistakes, making interceptions and tackles but I feel Rice and McTominay have the better passing ranges and physical advantages.

Whole point of buying somebody like Rice is to move away from relying on limited players like Fred and Mctominay if we still play all three of them in big games we would continue to struggle for control and creativity in them as usual.

 

[MadDogg]

I would play all three in games against the top 6, especially away. Fred is the best at harrying opponents into mistakes, making interceptions and tackles but I feel Rice and McTominay have the better passing ranges and physical advantages.

McTominay pulls off the occasional long cross field pass to a winger or fullback, but otherwise Fred is a much better passer. He makes significantly more passes, plays more creative and attacking passes and yet still has a higher completion rate.

 

[Adnan]

How much would he cost and would it justify buying him for the sum West Ham would want in the covid market?

 

[Olecurls99]

I think the stats don’t show the bigger picture without watching the player himself. Rice has been playing next to Soucek this season which reduced his defensive stats number since he has better help defensively from his partner.

if you check his stats in 19/20 and 18/19, he had much much higher number. 19/20 tackles (3.1) & interception (2), 18/19 tackles (2.9) & interception (1.5).

And Fred plays with Mctominay. Exactly the same situation.

Fred reminds me of Kante. He's won a fair few tussles against him too but that might be due to the fact that Kante is starting to slow down a bit now.

I would still say that Fred is one of the top defensive midfielders in the league. Very little between him and anyone else as the stats indicate.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

And Fred plays with Mctominay. Exactly the same situation.

Fred reminds me of Kante. He's won a fair few tussles against him too but that might be due to the fact that Kante is starting to slow down a bit now.

I would still say that Fred is one of the top defensive midfielders in the league. Very little between him and anyone else as the stats indicate.

So? Doesn't mean we can't play Rice & Fred or Rice as holding with VDB & Bruno.

 

[lifted]

McTominay pulls off the occasional long cross field pass to a winger or fullback, but otherwise Fred is a much better passer. He makes significantly more passes, plays more creative and attacking passes and yet still has a higher completion rate.

I think the odd misplaced pass Fred makes each game or two really hinders people's perception of his ability on the ball.

 

[Berbasbullet]

I think the odd misplaced pass Fred makes each game or two really hinders people's perception of his ability on the ball.

Agreed! There was a game recently where Fred completed 3x the amount of passes than Scott.

Fred is the superior passer too in my opinion.

 

[romufc]

Agreed! There was a game recently where Fred completed 3x the amount of passes than Scott.

Fred is the superior passer too in my opinion.

Which game?

Fred passing accuracy V Liverpool 73%
McTominay v Liverpool 83 %

 

[Lash]

How much would he cost and would it justify buying him for the sum West Ham would want in the covid market?

Too much and not at all.

West ham are back to thinking they can play European football, no way do they sell their only big academy prospect for less that £70m, which is just an absurd amount for him. When you think of what Villa were asking for Grealish.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Which game?

Fred passing accuracy V Liverpool 73%
McTominay v Liverpool 83 %

Amount not percentage stats, hmm can’t remember which one it was you know. I’ll try and dig it up for you.

 

[Polar]

It’s beyond me if we don’t aim higher than Rice. Does PL and England lacks CDM candidates? I’ve started to wonder. Maybe we have to widen our scope and look more to Spain, Italy or Germany.

 

[Champagne Football]

It’s beyond me if we don’t aim higher than Rice. Does PL and England lacks CDM candidates? I’ve started to wonder. Maybe we have to widen our scope and look more to Spain, Italy or Germany.

Having both a Hargreaves and a Carrick type midfielder, if possible in the modern game, is a great thing to possess to alter formations depending on the opposition. It's rare you find a player who is a mix of both DM and a CM who can break the lines like Roy Keane or Patrick Viera.

Rice is every bit as good as Hargreaves or at least is getting there. He'll end up at Chelsea. Hopefully Van de Beek can become a Carrick type player in a double pivot with Fred or McT next season.

 

[MadDogg]

Which game?

Leicester. Fred played 64 passes, McTominay played 26 (I remember a different site had 62 vs 21).

Against Villa he also played almost double the amount of passes as well. 46 vs 27.

Even against PSG Fred played 51 passes with McTominay playing 35, despite Fred being sent off at the 69th minute.

These matches have been worse than normal as McTominay has been particularly off form recently, but Fred almost always plays more. He's averaging more than 25% more passes per 90 minutes in the league this season while having a higher completion percentage.

 

[fps]

It’s beyond me if we don’t aim higher than Rice. Does PL and England lacks CDM candidates? I’ve started to wonder. Maybe we have to widen our scope and look more to Spain, Italy or Germany.

I’ve been very impressed by Rice recently. I think he’s going to be a top player if he makes the right next move. He’s already a heck of a presence in midfield at just 22.

 

[Bebestation]

It's a bit easy to shut off a player like Rice because he doesnt look that great with the passes. I've done it too.

He has a bit of that pre 95's hardcore attitude in his midfield defensive play, if Carrick can help him improve his passing (which isnt important because it isnt the type of player he really is) it will help him become the most well rounded version of him self.

 

[MU655]

I think the stats don’t show the bigger picture without watching the player himself. Rice has been playing next to Soucek this season which reduced his defensive stats number since he has better help defensively from his partner.

if you check his stats in 19/20 and 18/19, he had much much higher number. 19/20 tackles (3.1) & interception (2), 18/19 tackles (2.9) & interception (1.5).

I agree that you have to watch the player, but I do wonder whether some people are judging him based on his England performances, which haven't been great. I think that is down to the awful formation Southgate likes to play, though. s

It seems his positioning has been improving every season judging by his increase in interceptions. Seems he is a very capable tackler, but possibly this is contributing as well.

I would be very happy if we signed him. I just think there are two other areas that take priority (possibly three): right-winger, box-to-box midfielder, and a striker (if Martial doesn't pick up his form).

 

[432JuanMata]

This isn’t hating on England at all and they have some incredible talent but for all the players that get highly rated or overrated by the media you would be expecting them to be winning WC and Euros. I feel Rice goes into that category he is a good player no doubt but I don’t see anything special in him. I understand it’s the English Premier League so obviously the English media get excited when a player plays well he gets incredible hype.

Yet Grealish doesn’t get overrated at all by the media and he is a cracker of a player which I find weird. Out of all the English players that aren’t already top stars(like Kane,Sterling,Rashford etc) Grealish is the best and I would love him here

 

[croadyman]

I have always felt he was Chelsea bound due to the background with them when he was younger, however if they aren't careful they could end up playing Europa League football and that might just open the door for us. I appreciate there may well be cheaper options around europe but feels like Ole could decide to go down the PL proven route.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Quality player. Not remotely a priority signing.

 

[RkkMan]

Quality player. Not remotely a priority signing.

You dont think an out out DM is a priority? We constantly have to play Fred/Scott to do the job of one DM as we lack a quality DM Matic`s legs are gone now

 

[romufc]

Leicester. Fred played 64 passes, McTominay played 26 (I remember a different site had 62 vs 21).

Against Villa he also played almost double the amount of passes as well. 46 vs 27.

Even against PSG Fred played 51 passes with McTominay playing 35, despite Fred being sent off at the 69th minute.

These matches have been worse than normal as McTominay has been particularly off form recently, but Fred almost always plays more. He's averaging more than 25% more passes per 90 minutes in the league this season while having a higher completion percentage.

And a passing accuracy of 70 % v 90% V Leicester.

I dont think people understand why McTominay is in the team, its to break play up.