Declan Rice

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By saying he won’t improve at 23 years of age while only been at the club 18 months where he is still developing as a player is probably one of the deluded things I’ve come across
Show me where I said that and I’ll agree. Of course he’ll fecking improve man.

Ffs, first “agenda” and now a complete strawman.
Get a grip of yourself @Red00012 and think before posting, you’re too emotional here.
 

Red00012

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Show me where I said that and I’ll agree. Of course he’ll fecking improve man.

Ffs, first “agenda” and now a complete strawman.
Get a grip of yourself @Red00012 and think before posting, you’re too emotional here.
No problem

I'm not arsed about his attacking abilities, it's his general ability to move a football around a pitch. Something Luke Shaw was excellent at, from the second he entered the Southampton first team.

AWB is so clumsy he almost lobbed Henderson last night from his own clearance, did that surprise anyone?

Thinking he'll someone become miles better on the ball is fantasy land stuff.

But yeah, Rice.... offers nothing a 40m midfielder playing in Europe can't.
I didn’t have to go very far...
 

poleglass red

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If he's not able to offer anything beyond the basic requirements of a defensive midfielder, then he needs to be incredible at what he does - which he isn't.
at 22, he's not exceptional, I don't think many central mids are at that age. Right now he's potential but as I said previously West Ham are looking for big money for him. I genuinely don't see any teams in this climate shelving out what West Ham would be seeking.
 

croadyman

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at 22, he's not exceptional, I don't think many central mids are at that age. Right now he's potential but as I said previously West Ham are looking for big money for him. I genuinely don't see any teams in this climate shelving out what West Ham would be seeking.
Yeah this could well go the same way as Grealish last summer with us looking outside of the league for a cheaper option
 

ivaldo

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at 22, he's not exceptional, I don't think many central mids are at that age. Right now he's potential but as I said previously West Ham are looking for big money for him. I genuinely don't see any teams in this climate shelving out what West Ham would be seeking.
They demonstrate they have the potential to be exceptional, which Rice certainly hasn't so far.
 

Adnan

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A certain YouTuber keeps asking for Rice to be signed so we can play a 4-3-3 instead of a 4-2-3-1, meanwhile Rice plays in a 4-2-3-1 with Soucek beside him :lol: :lol: :lol:
I don't know who the Youtuber is but he/she must be thinking Rice could play as the sole DM behind two #8s which is only possible if the fullbacks are tucked in which would affect our ability to take advantage of the space out wide. That IMO wouldn't work at our club.

It worked at City for a period due to City playing a possession based game which saw them dominate the ball. We don't play like that so it would mean us getting over-run in midfield.
 

SadlerMUFC

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Yes, significantly so. What are you even watching if you can’t see that?

As per, you’re way off the mark.
You're right. His passing is fantastic. Almost "Pogba-esque". My problem with him is that I don't think he's the DM that most think he is. He is somewhere between a 6 and an 8 as he likes to get forward a lot. Perhaps have can be molded into a #6 but he almost seems like he isn't disciplined enough to sit and protect the back 2. Could be wrong though...he could be the next Carrick. Which for me is great. Unfortunately for most United supporters that will mean that they won't appreciate him until after he retires :lol: :lol: :lol:
 

Mainoldo

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I don't know who the Youtuber is but he/she must be thinking Rice could play as the sole DM behind two #8s which is only possible if the fullbacks are tucked in which would affect our ability to take advantage of the space out wide. That IMO wouldn't work at our club.

It worked at City for a period due to City playing a possession based game which saw them dominate the ball. We don't play like that so it would mean us getting over-run in midfield.
If two teams play a double pivot there AM is playing an advance role. If one of those teams plays with one pivot and two eights there’s two players looking to advance. So how can a team be over ran if both teams are playing a double pivot?
 

Mainoldo

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Yes, significantly so. What are you even watching if you can’t see that?

As per, you’re way off the mark.
As with everything round here. Time will tell.

They said Maddison was better than Grealish ;)
 

Adnan

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.
If two teams play a double pivot there AM is playing an advance role. If one of those teams plays with one pivot and two eights there’s two players looking to advance. So how can a team be over ran if both teams are playing a double pivot?
There's no double pivot in the equation but rather a single pivot with two players in the advanced midfield role.
 

Mainoldo

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.

There's no double pivot in the equation but rather a single pivot with two players in the advanced midfield role.
Exactly.. so against a double pivot it ends up being a 1v1 and a 2v2. How does your midfield get over ran?
 

AneRu

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Most of those play next to another midfielder who also does a lot of defensive work. Whether that is another defensive midfielder, a deep-lying playmaker, or a box to box midfielder with a high workload. Most sides tend to play two midfielders who are defensively solid, but of course they do tend to provide more on the ball than what Fred and McTominay together do.

This idea that some people have that we can get one top DM and that will allow us to regularly play Pogba in a midfield two (if he stays) is going to end in disappointment I feel. Even for France (where matches are normally slower and against lower quality opposition than in the league) and he was playing next to Kante at his peak they still had to play a third hard working midfielder on the wing.

Do we need a top midfielder who is both defensively good and a better passer than what we currently have? Yes. But it shouldn't be with the idea that we can then play Bruno and another attacking midfielder. Whoever partners the new guy will still need to do a significant amount of defensive work, so unless we are going to buy two midfielders it'll have to be Fred or McTominay for now. Then if that's not good enough we can get sign the second guy in a year or two.
This, I think the idea behind signing someone like Rice would be to play Pogba as an 8 with little defensive responsibilities, and I used to think that way too, but with the way football has progressed I don't think there is room for a player like Pogba in a double pivot - he will be exposed even when paired with prime Makalele.

I think the best way forward, especially if Pogba leaves, is to sign a deep lying playmaker in the Carrick mould and pair him with McTominay who would be the defensive box to box mid behind Bruno. That way the playmaking load would be shared without necessarily sacrificing defensive stability.
 

Bebestation

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This, I think the idea behind signing someone like Rice would be to play Pogba as an 8 with little defensive responsibilities, and I used to think that way too, but with the way football has progressed I don't think there is room for a player like Pogba in a double pivot - he will be exposed even when paired with prime Makalele.

I think the best way forward, especially if Pogba leaves, is to sign a deep lying playmaker in the Carrick mould and pair him with McTominay who would be the defensive box to box mid behind Bruno. That way the playmaking load would be shared without necessarily sacrificing defensive stability.
It seems like there is hardly any left in football. The ones that are - are hardly of the ability of Carrick, Scholes or Pirlo.

Do you have any ideas who is good enough for us to start in OUR XI from the get go?
 

Adnan

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Exactly.. so against a double pivot it ends up being a 1v1 and a 2v2. How does your midfield get over ran?
It gets over run because when you play with two advanced midfielders without tucking your fullbacks in, the single pivot has to patrol the defensive zones in both the left and right side of midfield without the support of the midfielders and the fullbacks on the counter attack. The space that will be left to exploit would be too much for a single pivot and would leave a easy out for the opposition.

If you're not gonna tuck the fullbacks in then the best approach is always a balanced one imo where one midfielder sits and the other midfielder plays a more box to box role and acts as the conduit between both defence and attack.
 

Denis' cuff

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But isnt it better to get a less costly defender than to bring in worse CMs in front of a ropey defence?
like Lindelof?

worse cm? Worse than who? Looks better than any we have, and I don’t make a habit of craving the next shiny new toy. I suppose we all have our leanings but I just like this guy.

we won’t get him, though
 

Mainoldo

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It gets over run because when you play with two advanced midfielders without tucking your fullbacks in, the single pivot has to patrol the defensive zones in both the left and right side of midfield without the support of the midfielders and the fullbacks on the counter attack. The space that will be left to exploit would be too much for a single pivot and would leave a easy out for the opposition.

If you're not gonna tuck the fullbacks in then the best approach is always a balanced one imo where one midfielder sits and the other midfielder plays a more box to box role and acts as the conduit between both defence and attack.
Your not playing with two advanced midfields you are playing with the ability. To start attacks from the flanks with you two extra midfielders allowing defence cover for those sides. It’s a game of symmetry. Which is why it doesn’t allow for your attacking players to float. It’s literally been part of City and Liverpool’s success. In this formation your fullbacks don’t tuck in they provide the width.
 

AneRu

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It seems like there is hardly any left in football. The ones that are - are hardly of the ability of Carrick, Scholes or Pirlo.

Do you have any ideas who is good enough for us to start in OUR XI from the get go?
Not at the moment, unfortunately.
 

Adnan

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Your not playing with two advanced midfields you are playing with the ability. To start attacks from the flanks with you two extra midfielders allowing defence cover for those sides. It’s a game of symmetry. Which is why it doesn’t allow for your attacking players to float. It’s literally been part of City and Liverpool’s success. In this formation your fullbacks don’t tuck in they provide the width.
If you're not playing with two advanced midfielders then your response to me makes little sense because what I responded to was about the Youtuber who suggest we play with two advanced midfielders .

Liverpool's transitions begin from their first phase which is their goalkeeper and CBs with the fullbacks occupying wide spaces in midfield. The fullbacks don't start anything here but rather are the wide receivers who progress the transition from a wide midfield position. Liverpool's midfield last season was compact and balanced.

City's midfield against Liverpool was also balanced for a team looking to impose their game on the opposition with Rodri as the deepest with Gundogan the conduit along with the high work rate of Bernardo Silva. Rodri wasn't acting as the sole defensive midfielder out of possession.
 

cyberman

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like Lindelof?

worse cm? Worse than who? Looks better than any we have, and I don’t make a habit of craving the next shiny new toy. I suppose we all have our leanings but I just like this guy.

we won’t get him, though
Rice is worse than we have. We would have a better side with a cheaper, quality CB with our midfield in front of them than keep a weak CB partnership and have Rice in front of them imo.
 

Mainoldo

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If you're not playing with two advanced midfielders then your response to me makes little sense because what I responded to was about the Youtuber who suggest we play with two advanced midfielders .

Liverpool's transitions begin from their first phase which is their goalkeeper and CBs with the fullbacks occupying wide spaces in midfield. The fullbacks don't start anything here but rather are the wide receivers who progress the transition from a wide midfield position. Liverpool's midfield last season was compact and balanced.

City's midfield against Liverpool was also balanced for a team looking to impose their game on the opposition with Rodri as the deepest with Gundogan the conduit along with the high work rate of Bernardo Silva. Rodri wasn't acting as the sole defensive midfielder out of possession.
It all depends on the role of the midfielders then don’t you agree? I was referring to playing two number 8’s. I’m sure that’s what the other poster was referring to aswell. You could play two number 10’s but that requires a lot of coaching. In a pivot yes you have the option of a 6,8 or 6,6. So I suppose it’s all relative to what you have. To bring it back to Rice as far as I’m concerned he is a 6 playing next to another 6. But someone in here I don’t know who it was believed he was an 8 hence not being able to play a 6 in a 3 man midfield.

That make sense?
 

Adnan

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It all depends on the role of the midfielders then don’t you agree? I was referring to playing two number 8’s. I’m sure that’s what the other poster was referring to aswell. You could play two number 10’s but that requires a lot of coaching. In a pivot yes you have the option of a 6,8 or 6,6. So I suppose it’s all relative to what you have. To bring it back to Rice as far as I’m concerned he is a 6 playing next to another 6. But someone in here I don’t know who it was believed he was an 8 hence not being able to play a 6 in a 3 man midfield.

That make sense?
I think we should aim to play with two more attack minded midfielders, but one of those midfielders has to be of the box to box variety to provide balance on the turn over. I'm all for playing a very attacking brand of football but there has to be a balance and the correct personnel to execute the plan. We need players who can manoeuvre opposition defensive structures via breaking lines with their passing and also being defensively aware in the process.

I think people get too drawn into what Rice is doing at West Ham positionally which is likely him following his managers instructions. I do believe he can play the more disciplined role in midfield if asked to do so. But even though I believe he would possibly improve us defensively, I don't believe it makes a lot of sense to sign him for what West Ham would want in a transfer fee. I honestly believe we should broaden our horizons and sign someone from mainland Europe who will likely have a similar effect and cost considerably less which is quite important in the current climate with clubs losing money.
 

Mainoldo

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Ha. Whoever said that was also wrong.

Rice is not a better passer than Matic, Rodri, Fabinho and Fernandinho. You must see that?
Honestly I’ve watched Rodri play a lot. I don’t see anything in his passing which would suggest he is better than Rice. Rice is currently a better passer than Matic who has regressed. Fabinho I would agree. Fernandinho possible also aswell. I also see a lot of potential in Rice’s passing which won’t be unleashed until he makes that step up. He plays too safe but I feel that just because of the level he is currently at.
 

Mainoldo

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I think we should aim to play with two more attack minded midfielders, but one of those midfielders has to be of the box to box variety to provide balance on the turn over. I'm all for playing a very attacking brand of football but there has to be a balance and the correct personnel to execute the plan. We need players who can manoeuvre opposition defensive structures via breaking lines with their passing and also being defensively aware in the process.

I think people get too drawn into what Rice is doing at West Ham positionally which is likely him following his managers instructions. I do believe he can play the more disciplined role in midfield if asked to do so. But even though I believe he would possibly improve us defensively, I don't believe it makes a lot of sense to sign him for what West Ham would want in a transfer fee. I honestly believe we should broaden our horizons and sign someone from mainland Europe who will likely have a similar effect and cost considerably less which is quite important in the current climate with clubs losing money.
Yeah the price is an issue. The only problem for me with Europe is I don’t see anyone around that offers that much more for the reduced price. Especially when you take into account the adaptation into the EPL
 

Kag

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Honestly I’ve watched Rodri play a lot. I don’t see anything in his passing which would suggest he is better than Rice. Rice is currently a better passer than Matic who has regressed. Fabinho I would agree. Fernandinho possible also aswell. I also see a lot of potential in Rice’s passing which won’t be unleashed until he makes that step up. He plays too safe but I feel that just because of the level he is currently at.
:houllier:

Matic is the best passer out of the lot of them. He’s older and not as good as he was but the weight, length, range and accuracy of his passing is another to planet to Declan Rice. Rice just doesn’t have that ability, in spite of the other qualities he might possess.

If there is a hill to die on with Declan Rice it isn’t bloody passing. At least sell his defensive capabilities which are genuinely good. I’m not having that he’s a passer, though, and certainly no Matic.
 

copen1945

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Maybe this guy below?
The Italian's agent already has made noises about contacts from City. It seems he might go there, and Rice will come to United. City could end up with the respective future 6's of both Spain and Italy.[/QUOTE]
 

Olecurls99

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This season Rice has played 48 passes per game. Matic is miles better on 76. Fred is on 65. This idea that Rice is going to improve our midfield passing is ludicrous. Fred also has way more recoveries than Rice because he gets around the pitch better. Signing Rice would actually be a downgrade on Fred based on these stats and just looking at them. Fred covers more ground and gets on the ball way more. Matic is even better at it when he plays.
 
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roonster09

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This season Rice has played 48 passes per game. Matic is miles better on 76. Fred is on 65. This idea that Rice is going to improve our midfield passing is ludicrous.
Rodrigo played around 55 passes per game at Atletico, now he plays 75-80 passes per game. Did he improve or the team he plays for made the difference?