Declan Rice

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Rodrigo played around 55 passes per game at Atletico, now he plays 75-80 passes per game. Did he improve or the team he plays for made the difference?
So a bounce like that, if it happened, would only move Rice up to Fred's level. So why are we buying him if we already have a player who's as good as him?
Rodri went from a defensive team to a possession monster team which would explain his bump in stats. I don't think there is a comparable difference between us and West Ham in terms of possession, so Rice wouldn't get the necessary bump to come up to Fred's level.
 

roonster09

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So a bounce like that, if it happened, would only move Rice up to Fred's level. So why are we buying him if we already have a player who's as good as him?
Rodri went from a defensive team to a possession monster team which would explain his bump in stats. I don't think there is a comparable difference between us and West Ham in terms of possession, so Rice wouldn't get the necessary bump to come up to Fred's level.
Playing x number of passes is not the only way to see who is playing well.

Btw Im not saying which player is better, just saying you have to take lot of things into consideration.

Take Ndidi for example, his pass completion was shit before Rodgers, now it's good. Midfield with Fernandinho averaged less than 50% possession in CL and wasn't even best in PL when it comes to possession. Pep signed for them and they started to top all these stats.

Player plays as coach sets up his team. You can't expect players like Rice to play 70-80 passes when they don't play possession football.
 

Olecurls99

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Playing x number of passes is not the only way to see who is playing well.

Btw Im not saying which player is better, just saying you have to take lot of things into consideration.

Take Ndidi for example, his pass completion was shit before Rodgers, now it's good. Midfield with Fernandinho averaged less than 50% possession in CL and wasn't even best in PL when it comes to possession. Pep signed for them and they started to top all these stats.

Player plays as coach sets up his team. You can't expect players like Rice to play 70-80 passes when they don't play possession football.
That's a fair point. I just don't see why people are clamouring for Rice. He'll only be as good as Fred in my opinion. That's still pretty good but if we're signing players for the first team they should be definite upgrades. I actually believe Thiago would have been the perfect foil for Fred or McTominay. Controlling possession and opening teams up while the other does most of the leg work.
 

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Some of you McTominay man should be ashamed of yourself today comparing Rice to him. We need to get this guy in our midfield ASAP.

I repeat. He can pass a flipping football. With both feet!!
 

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We already have a couple of average passers in our midfield options, we don't need to add another one, Locatelli is a better option as Adnan pointed out. Our attack gets lots of shit on here but a huge issue they have is that Pogba is the only midfielder we have that plays through the lines quickly and precisely so the opposition can't regain their shape, Rice isn't that type of midfielder.
 

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We already have a couple of average passers in our midfield options, we don't need to add another one, Locatelli is a better option as Adnan pointed out. Our attack gets lots of shit on here but a huge issue they have is that Pogba is the only midfielder we have that plays through the lines quickly and precisely so the opposition can't regain their shape, Rice isn't that type of midfielder.
He’s not an average passer. I mean you literally watch Fred and McTominay like me. That’s average passers. I don’t know who this Italian bloke is.. but I’ll watch him and I already know he’s only better because he’s Italian. Bloody Darmian all over again.

All these foreign experts spending hours watching English football.
 

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He’s not an average passer. I mean you literally watch Fred and McTominay like me. That’s average passers. I don’t know who this Italian bloke is.. but I’ll watch him and I already know he’s only better because he’s Italian. Bloody Darmian all over again.

All these foreign experts spending hours watching English football.
Really? The "Fans would want him if he was called Ricehino" bullshit is tired and played out, I have no options I'd take for attack over Grealish or Sancho, I'd happily add Aarons to our other English RB, and I wouldn't swap Shaw or Mason for any young forward or LB, nationality is irrelevant to me. I'm not saying McFred are good on the ball but it's far from a big strength of Rice's, as @Kag Said it’s not the hill to die on for those who want Rice.

In case you haven't noticed we are back in lockdown, many of us have been on our own 24/7 for months In general with the virus situation, there's a never ending supply of football at our fingertips. However it's not just about watching certain foreign teams or players, I've also seen plenty of Rice for West Ham and England and I think he's a good cruncher DM and that's it, he runs with the ball ok at times but on it he's well below Matic nevermind the very top midfielders and I think our biggest issues in midfield come from how poorly it connects to our front 4 without Pogba who is going, we aren't short of combative workhorses.
 

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Really? The "Fans would want him if he was called Ricehino" bullshit is tired and played out, I have no options I'd take for attack over Grealish or Sancho, I'd happily add Aarons to our other English RB, and I wouldn't swap Shaw or Mason for any young forward or LB, nationality is irrelevant to me. I'm not saying McFred are good on the ball but it's far from a big strength of Rice's, as @Kag Said it’s not the hill to die on for those who want Rice.

In case you haven't noticed we are back in lockdown, many of us have been on our own 24/7 for months In general with the virus situation, there's a never ending supply of football at our fingertips. However it's not just about watching certain foreign teams or players, I've also seen plenty of Rice for West Ham and England and I think he's a good cruncher DM and that's it, he runs with the ball ok at times but on it he's well below Matic nevermind the very top midfielders and I think our biggest issues in midfield come from how poorly it connects to our front 4 without Pogba who is going, we aren't short of combative workhorses.
Yeah I’m far from ‘that’ supporter. But playing in the Italian league where Zlatan Ibrahimovic can still own the place isn’t the best reference to be standing confident on. He plays for Sassuolo? Has he got the temperament to walk into this team? Is he captain? Are his performance as good as Jorginho’s for instance.

There’s a lot more to my claim then Ricinio... But I’m not shocked that’s what you assumed.

I’m just disappointed at times at how many fans overlook real quality.
 

Devil may care

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Yeah I’m far from ‘that’ supporter. But playing in the Italian league where Zlatan Ibrahimovic can still own the place isn’t the best reference to be standing confident on. He plays for Sassuolo? Has he got the temperament to walk into this team? Is he captain? Are his performance as good as Jorginho’s for instance.

There’s a lot more to my claim then Ricinio... But I’m not shocked that’s what you assumed.

I’m just disappointed at times at how many fans overlook real quality.
He's not Captain but I think he'd walk into our team as he's an actual holding midfielder as opposed to a box to box being shoehorhed into the role. I'd say Locatelli is plenty physical enough, that's why I suggested him, whoever we get needs to have a combative side, he's not a pure DLP like Jorginho who needs to be paired with a ball winner like Allan or Kante.

What more? I don't think fans care about a players nationality like that, if they feel they are the right player is all it's about. More often than not foreign midfielders are better on the ball, it's one of the reasons Scholes stood out so much, his game was very un-English, it's just the way it is, but like I say you wont find many fans who want a foreign forward over Grealish or Sancho who are both English.

Not favouring Rice isn't overlooking real quality, it's just a case of some of us feel the team needs a different type of midfielder, I didn’t say Rice wasn't a good player but to me it's like AWB, it was obvious when we brought him in his strengths were 90% without the ball, and when he struggled offensively some fans turned on him, in truth we are short 2 midfielders as not only will Pogba go but I think Ole is phasing Matic out, but with our board getting one will take all window, so for me that CM has to be top quality on both sides of the ball as they are going to likely partner McTominay.
 

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He's not Captain but I think he'd walk into our team as he's an actual holding midfielder as opposed to a box to box being shoehorhed into the role. I'd say Locatelli is plenty physical enough, that's why I suggested him, whoever we get needs to have a combative side, he's not a pure DLP like Jorginho who needs to be paired with a ball winner like Allan or Kante.

What more? I don't think fans care about a players nationality like that, if they feel they are the right player is all it's about. More often than not foreign midfielders are better on the ball, it's one of the reasons Scholes stood out so much, his game was very un-English, it's just the way it is, but like I say you wont find many fans who want a foreign forward over Grealish or Sancho who are both English.

Not favouring Rice isn't overlooking real quality, it's just a case of some of us feel the team needs a different type of midfielder, I didn’t say Rice wasn't a good player but to me it's like AWB, it was obvious when we brought him in his strengths were 90% without the ball, and when he struggled offensively some fans turned on him, in truth we are short 2 midfielders as not only will Pogba go but I think Ole is phasing Matic out, but with our board getting one will take all window, so for me that CM has to be top quality on both sides of the ball as they are going to likely partner McTominay.
I respect that but we have to build appropriately. A DLP is only good for a specific type of manager which I don't believe we will ever have. The focus of our midfield should be built like Leicester. A holding midfielder with the passing ability good enough to pass on to our creative 8's. Future speaking DVB and Bruno.. if Pogba stays then Pogba. I don't see how we progress into the attacking unit we want if that player is our deep line creator. It slows our game down too much and it also highlights Bruno's deficiencies.

Rice offers this.. he has very good positional awareness which gives the 8's in front of him freedom to attack without naturally thinking about these defensive responsibilities it also allows for two deepline players with a more creative 8 to dictate play in the advance. Similar to what we try to do with Pogba now and what I also believe Donny can do. What I also see in Rice is a leader.. he doesn't hide in games and he rarely loses the ball, Roy Keane like. I think people looking at Rice are looking at the wrong things. The best way to judge him.. is to watch Rodri.. Look at his role within the team. He's not the creator neither is he just a pure destroy.. his role is the keep the midfield shape and release to players like Gundogan and the attacking players.

We have to buy players who are designed to help improve our defence and attack. Does Locatelli offer that I don't know.. he just looks like a very good passer but I mentioned Jorginho for a reason. You have to buy for a system.
 

Devil may care

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I respect that but we have to build appropriately. A DLP is only good for a specific type of manager which I don't believe we will ever have. The focus of our midfield should be built like Leicester. A holding midfielder with the passing ability good enough to pass on to our creative 8's. Future speaking DVB and Bruno.. if Pogba stays then Pogba. I don't see how we progress into the attacking unit we want if that player is our deep line creator. It slows our game down too much and it also highlights Bruno's deficiencies.

Rice offers this.. he has very good positional awareness which gives the 8's in front of him freedom to attack without naturally thinking about these defensive responsibilities it also allows for two deepline players with a more creative 8 to dictate play in the advance. Similar to what we try to do with Pogba now and what I also believe Donny can do. What I also see in Rice is a leader.. he doesn't hide in games and he rarely loses the ball, Roy Keane like. I think people looking at Rice are looking at the wrong things. The best way to judge him.. is to watch Rodri.. Look at his role within the team. He's not the creator neither is he just a pure destroy.. his role is the keep the midfield shape and release to players like Gundogan and the attacking players.

We have to buy players who are designed to help improve our defence and attack. Does Locatelli offer that I don't know.. he just looks like a very good passer but I mentioned Jorginho for a reason. You have to buy for a system.
I don't disagree with your general point which is why I suggested Locatelli, he's not a pure DLP or a pure DM, he combines both aspects, which is what I think we need as our board won't address the balance, Pogba out and Rice in won't get us anywhere, Bruno has the workrate of a #8 but he's more of a Rooney-esque 9½ on the ball, which means Rice will almost certainly be paired with McTominay, we don't have a Gundogan or Tielemans level #8 to make a pure DM like Rice a logical choice.

As far as him being a leader goes, translating that to the big spotlight of United is different to being the big man on campus at a club like West Ham, we've seen this with Maguire, but I do think Rice would probably fare better in this regard as he seems fairly cocky.
 

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I doubt he will be worth the extortionate fees required. Will be a minor upgrade. Actually think he would struggle. He had problems with England because he couldn't receive the ball from CB to play from the back and we are trying to do the same here
 

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I don't disagree with your general point which is why I suggested Locatelli, he's not a pure DLP or a pure DM, he combines both aspects, which is what I think we need as our board won't address the balance, Pogba out and Rice in won't get us anywhere, Bruno has the workrate of a #8 but he's more of a Rooney-esque 9½ on the ball, which means Rice will almost certainly be paired with McTominay, we don't have a Gundogan or Tielemans level #8 to make a pure DM like Rice a logical choice.

As far as him being a leader goes, translating that to the big spotlight of United is different to being the big man on campus at a club like West Ham, we've seen this with Maguire, but I do think Rice would probably fare better in this regard as he seems fairly cocky.
I think a lot of posters overlook this aspect most of the time. Rice is only relevant in the United side that Ole used in last season's run in as Matic's replacement alongside Pogba behind Bruno. Without Pogba he will struggle to justify his place in the team especially considering that we are more likely to use whatever funds we get from the Pogba sale to finance the signing of a DM.

Bringing in a DM in the Carrick mould makes a lot more sense because that player would be able to contribute in build up play and creatively even when partnered with someone like McTominay/Fred. Our problems currently stem from the fact that we have little creative input from the six defensive players behind the front four.
 

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He just isnt that good

Would probably cost a similar anount to ndidi despite being nowhere near as good
 

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He just isnt that good

Would probably cost a similar anount to ndidi despite being nowhere near as good
How much do you think Leicester would ask for Ndidi? Given that Brendan will remind you that ‘we have billionaire owners!’
 

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How much do you think Leicester would ask for Ndidi? Given that Brendan will remind you that ‘we have billionaire owners!’
I was guessing maguire money but hard to know. Suspect west ham would wsnt something similar for declan rice

I very much doubt we will have that to spend this summer
 

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I was guessing maguire money but hard to know. Suspect west ham would wsnt something similar for declan rice

I very much doubt we will have that to spend this summer
Rice is more like to move than Ndidi. We’re sill looking at 50m plus
 

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Would probably cost a similar anount to ndidi despite being nowhere near as good
On the ball, Rice is a lot better than Ndidi. There is no doubt about that.

I’m a fan of Locatelli, but when comparing them it is worth remembering that Locatelli plays for a team that play a type of football we probably prefer. Sassulo has the highest possession numbers in Italy. Furthermore, it feels like a midfielder get a second or two more on the ball in Serie A. It is hard to adjust for that as a fan trying to compare them.

Would Rice be able to do what Locatelli if he played at a more possession-oriantated team? I’m not sure. Maybe not. But statistically, if you break the numbers down, there is not that much between them actually.

What I do not like about Rice is that he appear more limited on the ball than say Carrick or Scholes. But he does not appear to offer much less than Fabinho or Winjaldum with his passing. I dont think Rodri has been that good either.

The big benefit with Rice is that he is a natural holding DM. I dont think we have that today. Maybe Matic, but he has been really poor for a while.

I also think there is alot to like about him.

1) Great physically
2) Never injured so far (huge value and will benefit his development alot)
3) Played approx 10 000 minutes in the PL at the age of 22
4) Captain for a top 10 team in the PL (this season) could tell you quite abit about him as a person
5) Very good defensively
6) At the age of 22, he might develop a lot the next three to four years.
 

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We don't need a pure defensive midfielder in this team but rather someone who can help us transition play effectively at a high level. Locatelli has been mentioned but I'd take Ismaeel Bennacer over Rice too and have either Fred and McTominay holding in a 4-2-3-1. Bennacer is absolutely superb at attacking the half spaces with his passing and also has explosive dribbling ability to evade a press as he has shown against Juventus. That's the profile of player this team needs along with a CB who has all round capabilities which would allow us to play on the front foot higher up the pitch. Rice would improve on what we have defensively but his price should be enough for us to look elsewhere in the covid affected market.
 

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We don't need a pure defensive midfielder in this team but rather someone who can help us transition play effectively at a high level. Locatelli has been mentioned but I'd take Ismaeel Bennacer over Rice too and have either Fred and McTominay holding in a 4-2-3-1. Bennacer is absolutely superb at attacking the half spaces with his passing and also has explosive dribbling ability to evade a press as he has shown against Juventus. That's the profile of player this team needs along with a CB who has all round capabilities which would allow us to play on the front foot higher up the pitch. Rice would improve on what we have defensively but his price should be enough for us to look elsewhere in the covid affected market.
Bennacer is a class little player. I wouldn’t say no. Slight reservation about whether his tricks would be caught out in the faster league
 

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Bennacer is a class little player. I wouldn’t say no. Slight reservation about whether his tricks would be caught out in the faster league
I don't know mate but I'm just projecting my feelings on what I've seen from him currently and in the past. He's not a DM like Rice and would need a Rice like player alongside him to thrive but I wouldn't mind seeing either Fred or McTominay given a chance in such a role as a destroyer type which may save us money in the short term at the very least. Bennacer is also a strong little player who is hard to knock off the ball and tenacious with out it.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

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We don't need a pure defensive midfielder in this team but rather someone who can help us transition play effectively at a high level. Locatelli has been mentioned but I'd take Ismaeel Bennacer over Rice too and have either Fred and McTominay holding in a 4-2-3-1. Bennacer is absolutely superb at attacking the half spaces with his passing and also has explosive dribbling ability to evade a press as he has shown against Juventus. That's the profile of player this team needs along with a CB who has all round capabilities which would allow us to play on the front foot higher up the pitch. Rice would improve on what we have defensively but his price should be enough for us to look elsewhere in the covid affected market.
Like this post. Have a read of this article. Mentions Ismael Bennacer.

https://breakingthelines.com/data-analysis/finding-a-paul-pogba-replacement/
 

Adnan

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Like this post. Have a read of this article. Mentions Ismael Bennacer.

https://breakingthelines.com/data-analysis/finding-a-paul-pogba-replacement/
Thanks for sharing that mate, it was a good read.

And I completely agree that Bennacer is the correct profile of player we thought Pogba could potentially be in the double pivot next to a more defensive minded midfielder. But unfortunately it hasn't worked out for Pogba in the role and if he does leave then IMO, someone like Bennacer would be a excellent replacement. He's press resistant, can pass the ball to a good level (especially vertically) and is a excellent ball carrier and is also strong defensively alongside Frank Kessie.

Rice and Bennacer would be a good pairing but it makes little sense signing both due to the cost. So I'd settle for a Bennacer, Fred/McTominay double pivot for now.

If the club could raise enough cash from sales (will be difficult) and sign Bennacer, CB and Grealish, we'd look good IMO.
 

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Doesnt show the mistake though but good video.
That was not the best game from him or WH. But it is interesting to see how natural he is with his weaker foot.

I always enjoyed that about Carrick as he could always protect the ball better while passing, getting a better curve/angle on the ball. Rice has a bit of the same. It looks natural for him to gain control (make a first touch), block/tackle or pass with either foot. Playing central, that is an advantage.

He is very different to McT or Fred as a player. That being said, I tend to agree that we could use a type like Bennacer as well. I think we hoped Donny could be that player. But for now, we have Pogba...
 

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Yeah we need to be looking outside of the Premier League as well like Leicester are doing today with Soumare
Soumare is not the same level as Rice and how much players have we improved as he would require to go two levels up to be any use to us.
 

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Doesnt show the mistake though but good video.
His balance and body shape when receiving the ball is great. Watching a condensed video like that somehow illuminates his technique. He’s a lot more agile than I thought, twisting, reaching with either foot. Surprised me a bit.

Not sure what his instructions were but he is popping up in every corner of the pitch; I’d want him to stay bang centre. With the right briefing I could see him playing DM for us. Too pricey though, I expect.
 

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Soumare is not the same level as Rice and how much players have we improved as he would require to go two levels up to be any use to us.
I am referring more to the english premium rather than the quality and personally think the only way we can get him for a decent price if we can negotiate some kind of deal for Lingard
 

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I don't know if I dare to say it, but he does remind me of a 32 year old Roy Keane, when he was no longer box-to-box. And I mean that in the best possible way.

We do need a top class DM and I think he ticks a lot of boxes, really like the look of him.
Feck me, Roy agrees with me! Just said on Noggie TV Declan Rice is the player in PL which reminds him the most of himself.
 

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Have we been linked with him? Would love him at United, but I can't see it sadly.
 

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Him and McTominay would be a well balanced and strong midfield on paper as a double pivot. Would need a lot of creativity elsewhere though.
 

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Him and McTominay would be a well balanced and strong midfield on paper
My only concern about him is whether he's good enough on the ball because our passing is shocking and we need to bring in someone that's going to improve us in that side of the game
 

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My only concern about him is whether he's good enough on the ball because our passing is shocking and we need to bring in someone that's going to improve us in that side of the game
I would love to see him alongside Pogba, think it would be class. But that will never happen.
 

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Think he's excellent but think we should be going for someone more in the mould of Carrick.

Besides, we've got way higher priorities than CM/DM right now.