The kid is good. There is a tendency to blubber bulshit about how overrated English players are and creates a narrative even when good players like Rice are mentioned. I would gladly have the guy in a United shirt.
Declan Rice
- Thread starter roonster09
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We should get him at all costs. Bossed us throughout
I don't understand all the Fred bashing in here. He's had a good season before he lost his place once Bruno and Pogba started playing together. This seems to have become a theme recently where some of the squad who have not played since restart have been written off.
I know people likes Declan Rice to Dier - but I dont think that it's a bad thing at all.
We watch Matic take up and cover spots between the 2 CB'S or between the CB's and FBs to cover to create a back 3 that is only used when needed. Depending on a different attacking threat Rice can come out at CDM and act as an anchor man to break down attacks further up the pitch.
I can see Rice doing that very well which allows us to potentially get the right defensive balance to allow both Pogba and Bruno to play as two creative CM/CAM. I don't see why Pogba should stay deep most of the game whilst Bruno drops down the pitch to defend when they could both play together in centre midfield to take in turns to attack the CAM space instead - especially since we have Martial who drops deep aswell.
It's a CDM like rice that is needed to have Pogba and Bruno play together creatively which possibly can further include Grealish and/or Van de Beek.
We watch Matic take up and cover spots between the 2 CB'S or between the CB's and FBs to cover to create a back 3 that is only used when needed. Depending on a different attacking threat Rice can come out at CDM and act as an anchor man to break down attacks further up the pitch.
I can see Rice doing that very well which allows us to potentially get the right defensive balance to allow both Pogba and Bruno to play as two creative CM/CAM. I don't see why Pogba should stay deep most of the game whilst Bruno drops down the pitch to defend when they could both play together in centre midfield to take in turns to attack the CAM space instead - especially since we have Martial who drops deep aswell.
It's a CDM like rice that is needed to have Pogba and Bruno play together creatively which possibly can further include Grealish and/or Van de Beek.
Would make a lot of sense for us as Matic's successor, especially as he can play in defence as well if needed. Would be silly money though. Might be better value elsewhere.
I agree with the role he plays, but we have AWB and Shaw at fullbacks. They are not particularly attacking so I don't see the sense in buying him unless we're buying new FBs as well.
Baffles me how people now talk about Fred
Gone from our best midfielder pre lockdown to a useless sellable runt. Crazy how opinions change definitely some bipolar people on here.
Would love us to sign him but yeah, way too expensive probably.
He definitely strikes me as someone who needs to be playing consistently to be at the level he's capable of. I'd still give him next season based on what he did pre lockdown.
The problem is that fans overhype players and slate them after a bad game or two.
I was never a fan of Fred. I really wanted him to come good after he was really struggling in the beginning. But he looses to many balls and has always 2-3 really bad passes during a game. For me not the quality required.
As Bruno would say: Fred wasn‘t that good before and is now not as bad.
I would love to have Rice in our team and a new midfilder like Grealish or van de Beek.
Looses the ball easily and has 2-3 bad passes a game. Sounds like Pogba too.
Rice is half decent, he's probably a better DM than either McTom and Fred to be fair as both are more suited to CM.
Rice wouldnt be worth the 60mil+ though so its a tricky one.
We need a DM, but with Sancho and probably Grealish being targeted i dont think now is the time for another big spend.
I'd rather K.Phillips from Leeds, but unlikely they'll sell after being promoted
The problem is that we don't know what our budget is before sales. Suppose if we had £130m to £150m we could do Sancho and Grealish then fund the Rice signing via sales of our deadwood and one or two back up players on the sidelines.
Yes, very true.
Suppose its plausible.
We probably have 6 or 7 players available for perm transfers and would hope any sales made would be re-invested.
Its whether Ole sees the need for a CB or a DM really. I'd say he'd go for a CB and let Fred/Mctom/Matic rotate for another season
I personally would still like to see how it works.
Shaw and Wan Bissaka may not be the best attacking threat; but they have the ability to get forward and contribute (by making runs to stretch opposition defenses, occasionally cross even if isnt always perfect etc). Our fullbacks are maybe not attacking minded to the point it ever becomes a main tactic like Liverpool use their fullbacks; but instead I'd like to focus on extra central creativity to compensate that.
I kind of like to see Liverpool's front line tactics of a False 9 and two inverted forwards - however with the central creativity of Man City's tactics (2 attacking minded CAM like Silva and De Bryune playing together at CM guarded by a CDM like fernandinho).
Rashford -Martial- Greenwood
Shaw -Pogba- Bruno- AWB
Maguire - Rice- Lindelof
Martial drops deep like a false 9^ whilst Rashford and Greenwood make the inverted runs. Rice on the other hand plays like a false CB* dropping in to midfield when required. This kind of creates a false diamond shape depending on what we need. Shaw -Pogba- Bruno- AWB
Maguire - Rice- Lindelof
Rashford----Greenwood
Martial^
Pogba - Bruno
Rice*
Maguire----Lindelof
Our front 3 right now as 3 clinical forwards playing at angles whilst Martial has the ability to act as glue in the centre. They are better placed close together in partnerships with each other rather than particularly relying on dribbling to cut inside from the touchline all the time as if they were inverted wingers (a subtle difference).
The fullbacks on both sides are able to provide extra width by making runs only when needed whilst being defensive capable to look after the wider areas (and sometimes as inverted fullbacks) with minimal help from rest of the team. If we add the right CDM anchor man alongside one day some better ball playing CB'S (LCB) then our central creativity will be great trying to play balls in to a clinical front 3.
I'm very interested in CDM that can play at CB or vice versa due to our ability of playing 532 defensively but 235 attacking. Rice, Phillips, Koopmeiners, Zakaria, Lisandro Martinez are some I have kept an eye on potentially joining us.
Cant see West Ham selling to us in a million years anyway but even if they did they would ask for 70-80 million no doubt.
Course we could always offer Lingard and Jones now that they are guaranteed survival. (Against us at Old Trafford again
)
Course we could always offer Lingard and Jones now that they are guaranteed survival. (Against us at Old Trafford again
)Pre lockdown I'd agree with this but the problem with McTominay and Fred is their impact with the ball, they excell at other aspects like ball winning and covering large areas but when you have been reminded of what Matic at his best can offer you start to see the need for an upgrade.
I do agree on the CB front because Lindelof is a disaster waiting to happen. In tight games his lack of physical attributes like pace and strength can be costly. The other problem there is that Tuanzebe and Bailly aren't exactly reliable, they haven't been fit enough to lay a claim for a starting role so can't be relied on to displace Lindelof.
All this wouldn't be a problem if the Glazers would sanction say £150m before sales but with the understanding that we would sell at least 7 players to clear room for wages.
Like I said in other threads we could fund the signing of a DM and CB with sales. I am of the opinion that if we sign a DM then we wouldn't need Fred and with his reputation restored we could get £30m + for him, we should be able to get £15m to £20m for Bailly and maybe another £45m from Mata, Jones, Lingard/Pereira, Smalling, Rojo and Sanchez. For £90m we should be able to sign a DM and a CB that are considerable upgrades on Lindelof and Fred.
I think I'd rather someone like Koopmeiners, if we play like that. I've not seen a great deal of him - bar when he played against us, but from what @BenitoSTARR told me, his vision from deep is far better and would probably cost much less. Similiarly with Zakaria due to his mobility and carrying the ball from deep, for much less.
You have a point, West Ham are ambitious and would demand a fee in the range of just a bit lower than what Leicester fleeced us for Maguire. Given that Matic is still serviceable when used in the right circumstances I think Koopmeiners will be better value and should be ready to take over from Matic in a year or two after adjusting to the league's physicality.
I personally only see him moving to Chelsea if he does. With Matic signing a new deal, he won't even be close to a priority for us at the price he's at. I also think the DM role will be down the priority, if addressed at all this window.
I alluded to Matic's new deal earlier in another thread but I think:
a) the deal was a mistake and
b) Matic can't be relied on over a season and that his supposed back ups just can't offer what he offers with the ball and in terms of composure.
If we don't bring in another DM it's going to cost us and next summer we will be addressing this issue from a position of desperation.
Jesus seriously, even if we had won last night, spammers would have had 37 points and play villa 34 points last game, you think villa would have scored 14 goals against Spammers in their last game, as the goals difference is 13. West Spammers were safe no matter the results unless cricket score win by us last night.Cant see West Ham selling to us in a million years anyway but even if they did they would ask for 70-80 million no doubt.
Course we could always offer Lingard and Jones now that they are guaranteed survival. (Against us at Old Trafford again
Just like any other position we address every window. We always wait until it's painfully obvious we need to recruit before doing so
And the selling club will see us coming from a long way out ending up in us paying over the odds for average talent. We could ignore Rice this summer and end up begging West Ham to take £80m for him next summer instead of just taking a punt on an impressive Koopmeiners when we still have Matic to smoother the transition.
I'm not so sure, I can't see us totally sacking of Scott and Fred for that role. For me we have to add quality bit by bit and Sancho will be the majority of our budget. For now Matic with those two fighting behind for midfield spots is good enough for next season, based on where I'd prefer to spend our money.
This isn't just us. It's a reason Liverpool went and spent record amounts on their CB and GK. City have spent the GDP of a small country on their defence. Everton overspend on dross every year.
The thing is ball winning is just half the job in that role for a team like United. You need a player that has the ball skills to start play from the No.6 role and neither of the two have that ability. We need to get rid of one and keep the other for games we are likely to have our backs against the wall.
I understand that it happens to every team which is why we should take advantage of the fact that we still have Matic at an acceptable level and plan for his eventual departure, it will happen and we can't wish it away. Doing it afterwards from a position of desperation will be more costly see the AwB and Maguire signings.
I’ve said many times my 3 preferences are Koopmeiners, Zakaria and Rice I was initially criticised for picking out Rice but I think more and more people are realising he’s actually rather good for what we want.
Of the 3 Koopmeiners is the better passer and I’d argue most composed on the ball (though many say the Dutch league is worse when pressed he rarely ever loses the ball), Zakaria is the most proactive in terms of pressing and battling for the ball and the best ball carrier and Rice is a nice mix of the fundamentals of the position.
I have my hesitations about Zakaria as I think he’s too aggressive in his pressing but I know this is coaches instructions as much as anything. I think he’ll get caught out more from a missed tackle than the others. He’s a very intelligent player though so I’d imagine he could adapt this.
My reservations with Koopmeiners are much less as he’s strong and clearly a great delayer of attacks who can set up counters and break lines with his passing. He’d be an absolute steal for around £20m.
Rice gives you a nice mix with experience of the PL so is perhaps the safest choice.
The thing for me is it’s really going to be down to Ole’s vision but generally I think those 3 stand out to me.
The only question is if we’re waiting a year or two is Garner worth waiting for instead? Or McTominay?
On the ball, no, but defensively, Rice is much better than De Jong.
It all depends on what we want and where Ole wants to go.
That being said, with it looking likely that Pogba will continue at the base of midfielder next season, then priority first and foremost, should be looking at the defensive attributes of that player.
I don't deny that would be good for us to improve that area, but if I look at us this season, the main issue is goal scoring (take away some of the de gea howlers) and depth in quality going forward. We've actually got one of the best defensive records in the league.
I'd add Bennacer to the list of good young DMs. He's highly rated in Milan. The idea of gambling on Mctominay or Garner to replace Matic is very risky. And it's already showing even just these past few games, you can see Ole playing Matic in every game even when Matic needs rest. The only time Mctominay has featured in for Matic was to close out the game and against Palace where he was immediately subbed off for Matic. I'm hoping this is evidence enough for Ole to see that going into next season with Mctominay as back up to an easily fatigued Matic is risky. If he doesn't then he does not understand the importance of the DM role
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I mentioned him earlier in the thread, he looks handy. Was at Arsenal as a kid as well.
I agree with you; though I was happy for Matic to get a contract, maybe not for the length of it - unless he ends up sold for a transfer fee before the contract runs down.
I dont see Mctomminay as a CDM but I think he is a fantastic box to box player; in the squad he should be used only as our 3rd best CDM - ie only use him in such a position when needed. Fred to me is more a pressing CM playing well in such a tactic than guarding a whole defence by himself.
I personally think that the CDM is quite empty; whilst we have cover - I dont see many other than Matic who can make that position their own and not going for a new CDM either this window (at the latest next January transfer window) would be taking a shot in the foot.
Going for the right CDM working to replace Matic's role whilst he's still here would be a significant benefit to us.
We both seem to want the CDM'S capable of playing in a back line aswell.
The one thing I dont mind is having different types of CDM in our squad playing different ways.
Mctomminay may be able to cover the type of CDM role that Zakaria plays with aggression.
Koopmeiners is more passing based so I wonder if Garner could cover such a role?
Rice and Lisandro Martinez are the more defensively focused maybe playing at times as a defensive minded CB at CDM (an underrated tactic).
What do you think of Lisandro Martinez? ( if I remember your a Eredivise watcher when we talked about Koopmeiners last & I'm a side Ajax fan too).
I think it suits our set up to have someone comfortable enough to drop into those zones when needed. Maguire and Lindelof do move forward (Lindelof at one point last night had sprinted into the opposite box!) and so having someone who is happy dropping deep is advantageous in my mind.
Personally I don’t think he’s as good for what we want. I’d say Koopmeiners is the better player IMO but I’ve seen a lot of Koop.
Didn't think he did anything special to be honest.
Anyway he's off to Chelsea so I wouldn't get excited.
Anyway he's off to Chelsea so I wouldn't get excited.
Unless West Ham are open to taking some of our players in part exchange, I can't see us spending mega money on Rice if we also sign Havertz.
I can't even imagine what sort of fee they'll demand for him. Probably in the same region as Maguire.
Going to be a top player, though.
Add some creative midfield to cover and I would totally agree with you. The problem is we will not address one of DM/CB this summer which is a shame.
Yeah that is exactly how he sees things by the looks of it, however I feel if we had a top quality DM in there protecting the back four then maybe the need for signing a CB might not be so great but maybe that's just me.
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