Did the rot set in when Ronaldo left?

[Ian Reus]

We didn't invest the Ronnie loot well enough.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Ronaldo papered over a lot of cracks, the rot started much earlier.

We were slow to react to Chelsea's dominance in the early stages of the Roman era - they were beating us to signings, scoring amazing goals, and defending incredibly too.
They built a formiddable team instantly.
Their scouting was better, they bought much better players, their tactics seemed like a breath of fresh air - and every time we faced them I genuinely thought we would lose.

If we didn't have Ronaldo then I think we would have struggled to compete in the way we did.

By the time we left we were already far behind the likes of Bayern & Barcelona, it just compounded.
Since then we've made a few quick fixes (RvP for example) but we still seemingly don't have a long term plan in place, or any real strategy.

I certainly don't agree with that. We had an amazing team from 06-09.

The problem is Ronaldo leaving coincided with stuff like our great defenders (Rio, Vidic, VDS, Evra) ageing, our last class of 92 (Scholes, Giggs) fading away, a declining midfield, and talented young players (Nani, Anderson) failing to reach their potential (Anderson moreso than Nani!). It sort of all started to happen simultaneously and the club didn't invest enough in any way to handle it.

Ronaldo didn't paper over any cracks though, that was a brilliant team.

 

[The Outsider]

I wouldn't say rot, decline might be a better description yet it is debatable whether this is a mini-blip or something more serious and none of us have a crystal ball!

City have raised the stakes like Chelsea did under the first Mourinho term. The question now is who can react to City raising the bar.

 

[villain]

Chelsea also relied on Lampard, Terry and one or two other midfielders. Every team rely on their best players, like Barca relied on Messi, Madrid on Ronaldo.

2002 to 2006 was average seasons for us but from 2006-2009 we were as good as any team in Europe except the two winners of CL.

Our 2007-08 team alone had so many class players, it's hard to point a finger on a player and say there's the weakness in the team.

Obviously we started slow when Chelsea started winning league but with additions of Carrick, VDS, Evra we addressed weakness in the team and SAF banking on Ronaldo and Rooney paid superbly.

But this is my problem and this is why I said the rot started earlier - 2002 we still had a great squad, however it needed to be refreshed - and we were incredibly wasteful and inefficient in doing so.
When Roman took over Chelsea, I knew that their team were better than ours, we just had a better coach, (and sometimes I questioned that too, i'll admit) but the dominance we had on the league was slipping away, SAF knew that too. Seemingly within a year their squad changed completely, while ours was still transforming.

So at that point (2005ish), I would have thought that behind the scenes the club was making strategic moves to plan for the long term - and perhaps they did that, and they just weren't good enough. That's when we should have looked at upgrading the academy and replicating the Co92 formula again in a number of years, or expanding the scouting network, and bringing in fresh ideas.
I think we certainly tried, but we just weren't very good at it, in comparison.

Our transfer plans to this day are still incredibly wasteful - there doesn't seem to be any strategy behind it at all, and that's been the case for the last 15 years imo.
I don't think anyone has an idea what the profile for a future United player looks like and that's concerning to me as a fan - the market has changed and we are not in the suitable position to adapt to it, which is why I think we are going for marquee players because they *should* bring success, and it's been incredibly wasteful so far.

I certainly don't agree with that. We had an amazing team from 06-09.

The problem is Ronaldo leaving coincided with stuff like our great defenders (Rio, Vidic, VDS, Evra) ageing, our last class of 92 (Scholes, Giggs) fading away, a declining midfield, and talented young players (Nani, Anderson) failing to reach their potential (Anderson moreso than Nani!). It sort of all started to happen simultaneously and the club didn't invest enough in any way to handle it.

Ronaldo didn't paper over any cracks though, that was a brilliant team.

I'm saying the rot started much earlier in the decade, I know the 06-09 team was amazing - I think it's one of the best in PL history, however we depended on it and rested on our laurels.
When Ronaldo made it clear he didn't see a future with us, we did the right thing in keeping him for a time but instead we adapted after he left not before, and that's been something we've been doing for many years. (RvN, Keane, Scholes, Becks, Neville, Giggs) I would say VDS and DDG has been the best transition, Pogba should have been also, Evans, Smalling & Jones to an extent.

 

[b82REZ]

You're discussing two different teams than I am. I think the rot started from 2002 on wards personally.

I'm not entirely convinced our scouting has been as good as it should have been for a club our size, I think on average maybe 1/4 players were good enough for us long term.
We were still relying on Co92, RvN, Keane at the time, then we began relying on Co92, Rooney & Ronaldo to thelp get us to the place where we had Vidic, Evra, Tevez etc.

Compare that with what Chelsea were buying from 2004 on and seemingly every player formed part of their core almost immediately.
We were slow to react, and far too rigid in our scouting structure also.

Mind boggling opinions. Apart from 2 dominant seasons from Chelsea we were the better team and squad. In one off games Chelsea have always been a bit of bogey team for us but to suggest they were somehow more dominant and caused our downfall is laughable.

 

[roonster09]

But this is my problem and this is why I said the rot started earlier - 2002 we still had a great squad, however it needed to be refreshed - and we were incredibly wasteful and inefficient in doing so.
When Roman took over Chelsea, I knew that their team were better than ours, we just had a better coach, (and sometimes I questioned that too, i'll admit) but the dominance we had on the league was slipping away, SAF knew that too. Seemingly within a year their squad changed completely, while ours was still transforming.

So at that point (2005ish), I would have thought that behind the scenes the club was making strategic moves to plan for the long term - and perhaps they did that, and they just weren't good enough. That's when we should have looked at upgrading the academy and replicating the Co92 formula again in a number of years, or expanding the scouting network, and bringing in fresh ideas.
I think we certainly tried, but we just weren't very good at it, in comparison.

Our transfer plans to this day are still incredibly wasteful - there doesn't seem to be any strategy behind it at all, and that's been the case for the last 15 years imo.
I don't think anyone has an idea what the profile for a future United player looks like and that's concerning to me as a fan - the market has changed and we are not in the suitable position to adapt to it, which is why I think we are going for marquee players because they *should* bring success, and it's been incredibly wasteful so far.
.

Not sure what are on you about, we refreshed squad by 2006 and by 2007 we added lot of players of very good quality. By 2008 we were the best team in Europe and it wasn't by chance or luck. We were the best.

2006-09 was the best years in ManUtd history considering CL success and consecutive CL finals. We refreshed the squad superbly and with very good transfers.

Post Fergie was different issue though but till 2009 we were just superb and much better than any team in the league.

Chelsea relied on players like Bosingwa, Essien (injury problems), Joe Cole, Malouda, Anelka and you are saying they were better team than ManUtd.

From 2004-2006? Yes they were but after that till SAF retired, only time they had genuine claim to be better than us was in 2009-10 when Ronaldo and Tevez left. that was the only season.

Class of 92 wasn't a formula, it happened once and we were very lucky to have so many gifted players both technically and mentally to come through at once. How many times it happened at any club? We would be very luck if have one more batch of so many good players making step up to first team at once.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I'm saying the rot started much earlier in the decade, I know the 06-09 team was amazing - I think it's one of the best in PL history, however we depended on it and rested on our laurels.
When Ronaldo made it clear he didn't see a future with us, we did the right thing in keeping him for a time but instead we adapted after he left not before, and that's been something we've been doing for many years. (RvN, Keane, Scholes, Becks, Neville, Giggs) I would say VDS and DDG has been the best transition, Pogba should have been also, Evans, Smalling & Jones to an extent.

Again, I disagree.

SAF countered that Chelsea side by building a team that won the title three years in a row and got to 2 CL finals. What more could he have possibly done? He spent ~£100m in 2007 bringing in talented young players, after we'd just won the league.

The problems only started when we sold Ronaldo and didn't reinvest his money in the squad. Also you could easily argue that Nani was supposed to be Ronaldo's replacement when we bought him, he was immensely talented after all, it just didn't work out. So again, I don't agree either that SAF wasn't planning for Ronaldo leaving.

 

[Mr PG]

I mean in terms of how shambolic our recruitment has been ever since. We sold the best player in the world and invested the money that season in Antonio Valencia, Michael Owen and Gabriel Obertan. Look at a comparable moment now for Barcelona who sold Neymar but have invested the money in Ousmane Dembele and Coutinho...

Yes even worse is we let David Silva and Aguero go to city and Hazard to Chelsea while we bought Kagawa. These players are still haunting us to this day as our rivals would be significantly weakened without them.

 

[roonster09]

Again, I disagree.

SAF countered that Chelsea side by building a team that won the title three years in a row and got to 2 CL finals. What more could he have possibly done? He spent ~£100m in 2007 bringing in talented young players, after we'd just won the league.

The problems only started when we sold Ronaldo and didn't reinvest his money in the squad. Also you could easily argue that Nani was supposed to be Ronaldo's replacement when we bought him, he was immensely talented after all, it just didn't work out. So again, I don't agree either that SAF wasn't planning for Ronaldo leaving.

I think we spent around 50-55 Million. Not the exchange rate has changed, transfermarkt updated it according to today's exchange rate.

 

[Mr PG]

In a way i think the Ronaldo sale for 80m quid having purchased for $17m only encouraged us to buy low sell high...resulting in the equivalent of sporting suicide. Just look at the team sir alex left behind. Rio and Vidic ageing failed at QPR and in italy. Midfield of Cleverly, Fletcher (now at Everton, stoke)..etc.

 

[Crustanoid]

We have been utterly diabolical in the transfer market since summer 2007. It’s so obvious it isn’t even funny. Off the top of my head during that time period our closest rivals have bought the likes of Hazard, Coutinho, Silva, Yaya, Aguero, Kompany, Dele Alli, Salah, Sane, Sanchez, Ozil, Sterling, Eriksen, Kante, Morata, and the list goes on-in every case they have got much more value than the money they paid.

In the meantime we have flailed around like incompetent imbeciles in the transfer market time and time again, spunking 90 mil on decent players or overpaying on countless under-performers. That’s our value policy.

We are an utter bunch of idiots in terms of buying football players.

 

[United never give up]

What rot, we're feckin second in the league and still in the CL. What more do you want?

We're in a very good position and we should be happy with our improvement this season for sure

However, to say "What more do you want" does show a slight lack of ambition IMO. In life, there is absolutely nothing wrong in aiming high and being ambitious, as long as it is tempered by realism. Your scathing reply to @padzilla who suggests that we could at least aim for first is telling of your mentality/the mentality of many fans.

We certainly don't have any divine right for trophies, and I think Jose has done an excellent, excellent job this season. But we mustn't forget the ultimate goal, we mustn't become Arsenal. Its important to still dream and have hope of eventually coming 1st.

The vilification of @padzilla is wrong, and tells me that our mentality as a fanbase should be altered slightly in some cases

I'm expecting a huge amount of scathing criticism on this, which, whilst I have tried to stay balanced and pragmatic, is inevitable I guess...

 

[villain]

Not sure what are on you about, we refreshed squad by 2006 and by 2007 we added lot of players of very good quality. By 2008 we were the best team in Europe and it wasn't by chance or luck. We were the best.

2006-09 was the best years in ManUtd history considering CL success and consecutive CL finals. We refreshed the squad superbly and with very good transfers.

Post Fergie was different issue though but till 2009 we were just superb and much better than any team in the league.

Chelsea relied on players like Bosingwa, Essien (injury problems), Joe Cole, Malouda, Anelka and you are saying they were better team than ManUtd.

From 2004-2006? Yes they were but after that till SAF retired, only time they had genuine claim to be better than us was in 2009-10 when Ronaldo and Tevez left. that was the only season.

Again, I disagree.

SAF countered that Chelsea side by building a team that won the title three years in a row and got to 2 CL finals. What more could he have possibly done? He spent ~£100m in 2007 bringing in talented young players, after we'd just won the league.

The problems only started when we sold Ronaldo and didn't reinvest his money in the squad. Also you could easily argue that Nani was supposed to be Ronaldo's replacement when we bought him, he was immensely talented after all, it just didn't work out. So again, I don't agree either that SAF wasn't planning for Ronaldo leaving.

You're both not getting my point.
I'm not saying we didn't have a great team - we had an excellent team at times, we agree on that yes?

Outside of that, I'm saying we were incredibly wasteful and inefficient on scouting players, and buying the right players.
Given the success of Co92 you would have thought that we would have been looking to improve our academy much earlier, we're one of the biggest clubs that have shown that you can be successful with academy products - we should be leading the way with that, we certainly have had the resources and the network to do this but only in recent years has this been addressed, that's not good enough.

When it comes to buying players, it takes us maybe 3 players who are average/not good enough for us to get 1 who is acceptable, every now and then we get a gem.
From 2003-4 we're talking Rio, Rooney & Ronaldo, after that you have to look at Vidic and Evra, after that Tevez & Carrick? Then DDG, then RvP? Now we're talking Martial, Bailly and hopefully Lukaku? I'm not counting Pogba, even though technically I should, those have been our gems. The likes of Saha, Park, Nani etc were acceptable but not consistent enough.

Then think about all the players who have come and gone in that time, who had fleeting moments of excellence but ultimately weren't to the level we require, and why we continue to have such a pile up of deadwood.
That's what I mean - we're incredibly inefficient and i'm not surprised that the Glazers would be reluctant to spend money, because clearly we don't know how to utilize it properly.

There's no strategic planning on transfers, and the quality of our youth products is declining too.

 

[Massive Spanner]

You're both not getting my point.
I'm not saying we didn't have a great team - we had an excellent team at times, we agree on that yes?

Outside of that, I'm saying we were incredibly wasteful and inefficient on scouting players, and buying the right players.
Given the success of Co92 you would have thought that we would have been looking to improve our academy much earlier, we're one of the biggest clubs that have shown that you can be successful with academy products - we should be leading the way with that, we certainly have had the resources and the network to do this but only in recent years has this been addressed, that's not good enough.

When it comes to buying players, it takes us maybe 3 players who are average/not good enough for us to get 1 who is acceptable, every now and then we get a gem.
From 2003-4 we're talking Rio, Rooney & Ronaldo, after that you have to look at Vidic and Evra, after that Tevez & Carrick? Then DDG, then RvP? Now we're talking Martial, Bailly and hopefully Lukaku? I'm not counting Pogba, even though technically I should, those have been our gems. The likes of Saha, Park, Nani etc were acceptable but not consistent enough.

Then think about all the players who have come and gone in that time, who had fleeting moments of excellence but ultimately weren't to the level we require, and why we continue to have such a pile up of deadwood.
That's what I mean - we're incredibly inefficient and i'm not surprised that the Glazers would be reluctant to spend money, because clearly we don't know how to utilize it properly.

There's no strategic planning on transfers, and the quality of our youth products is declining too.

Disagreeing with you doesn't mean we're not getting your point, it means we ... disagree with your point. Telling someone they're not getting the point cause they disagree with you is terribly condescending.

I get your point, I think it's wrong. To clarify, your point is that our recruitment, scouting etc. during those years (03-09) was also not good enough. I'm saying it was. The problem was 09-13, after Ronaldo left.

 

[roonster09]

You're both not getting my point.
I'm not saying we didn't have a great team - we had an excellent team at times, we agree on that yes?

Outside of that, I'm saying we were incredibly wasteful and inefficient on scouting players, and buying the right players.
Given the success of Co92 you would have thought that we would have been looking to improve our academy much earlier, we're one of the biggest clubs that have shown that you can be successful with academy products - we should be leading the way with that, we certainly have had the resources and the network to do this but only in recent years has this been addressed, that's not good enough.

When it comes to buying players, it takes us maybe 3 players who are average/not good enough for us to get 1 who is acceptable, every now and then we get a gem.
From 2003-4 we're talking Rio, Rooney & Ronaldo, after that you have to look at Vidic and Evra, after that Tevez & Carrick? Then DDG, then RvP? Now we're talking Martial, Bailly and hopefully Lukaku? I'm not counting Pogba, even though technically I should, those have been our gems. The likes of Saha, Park, Nani etc were acceptable but not consistent enough.

Then think about all the players who have come and gone in that time, who had fleeting moments of excellence but ultimately weren't to the level we require, and why we continue to have such a pile up of deadwood.
That's what I mean - we're incredibly inefficient and i'm not surprised that the Glazers would be reluctant to spend money, because clearly we don't know how to utilize it properly.

There's no strategic planning on transfers, and the quality of our youth products is declining too.

Disagreeing with you doesn't mean we're not getting your point, it means we ... disagree with your point. Telling someone they're not getting the point cause they disagree with you is terribly condescending.

I get your point, I think it's wrong. To clarify, your point is that our recruitment, scouting etc. during those years (03-09) was also not good enough. I'm saying it was. The problem was 09-13, after Ronaldo left.

What @Massive Spanner said.

Our recruitment was very efficient from 2003-09, we had our share of flops with Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba but most players signed for first team were good additions.

From 2002-03 season onwards:
Ferdinand
Ronaldo
Saha
Kleberson
Djemba Djemba
Howard
Bellion
Rooney
Heinze
Alan Smith
Vidic
Evra
Park
VDS
Foster
Carrick
Kuszczak
Anderson
Nani
hargreaves
Tevez
Berbatov

I have listed signings for first team. we took punts on players like Foster, Bellion but apart from that it's a very good record. I would say our recruiting was very efficient.

Btw since you were talking about Chelsea, they signed players like Bosingwa, Deco, Zhirkov, Sturridge, Malouda, Belletti, Sidwell, Shevchenko, Mikel, Boulahrouz, Kalou, Wright Phillips, Del Horno in that time.

 

[Sky1981]

Some of you lot were spouting bullshits about still loving united even if we're getting degradation.

One year sitting in 2nd position its a rot.

Lol

And here we are laughing at rawk, god forbid we endure what they endure i shudder to think what we'll become

 

[villain]

Disagreeing with you doesn't mean we're not getting your point, it means we ... disagree with your point. Telling someone they're not getting the point cause they disagree with you is terribly condescending.

I get your point, I think it's wrong. To clarify, your point is that our recruitment, scouting etc. during those years (03-09) was also not good enough. I'm saying it was. The problem was 09-13, after Ronaldo left.

I think our team came together at a point during 06-09, reignited by Fergie's desire to be back on top.
But without Fergie I don't think we would have enjoyed similar success because the foundation wasn't there, he was the key difference imo.

The likes of Bayern, Barca, and to a certain extent Chelsea can operate with a great manager and not experience any real periods of painful transition because they have a foundation and the manager adds his own personal tactics, staff and player recommendations to it.

Right now we don't have that, if Jose walks away or is fired we're far more likely to go through another painful transition period, we're still in a transition period as far as i'm concerned, and it's been how many years now?

What @Massive Spanner said.

Our recruitment was very efficient from 2003-09, we had our share of flops with Kleberson, Djemba-Djemba but most players signed for first team were good additions.

From 2002-03 season onwards:
Ferdinand
Ronaldo
Saha
Kleberson
Djemba Djemba
Howard
Bellion
Rooney
Heinze
Alan Smith
Vidic
Evra
Park
VDS
Foster
Carrick
Kuszczak
Anderson
Nani
hargreaves
Tevez
Berbatov

I have listed signings for first team. we took punts on players like Foster, Bellion but apart from that it's a very good record. I would say our recruiting was very efficient.

Out of that list only Rio, Ronaldo, Rooney, Vidic, Evra, VDS, Carrick and Tevez were consistently good. Saha was injury prone, Heinze was acceptable, Smith was inconsistent, Park was acceptable, Anderson & nani were inconsistent and Berbatov was an anomaly. (imo, you don't have to agree)
That's about 8/22 which is 33% success rate, so 1/3 which I said earlier. That list doesn't have Rafael & Fabio either does it?

It would be good to see the player's we've bought from 2010 on.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I think our team came together at a point during 06-09, reignited by Fergie's desire to be back on top.
But without Fergie I don't think we would have enjoyed similar success because the foundation wasn't there, he was the key difference imo.

The likes of Bayern, Barca, and to a certain extent Chelsea can operate with a great manager and not experience any real periods of painful transition because they have a foundation and the manager adds his own personal tactics, staff and player recommendations to it.

Right now we don't have that, if Jose walks away or is fired we're far more likely to go through another painful transition period, we're still in a transition period as far as i'm concerned, and it's been how many years now?

I wouldn't disagree with that though, obviously having the greatest manager of all time helped matters. I'm unsure as to how it's relevant to your original "point", which was:

"Ronaldo papered over a lot of cracks, the rot started much earlier."

and really, there's very little to back any of that up at all. We recruited really well during that period (Ronaldo, Rooney, Carrick, Vidic, Evra, VDS etc) and had some good academy players come through (Brown, Fletcher), and ended up winning the league five times and reaching the CL final three times between 06-13 as a result. Clearly the problem was 09-13 where Fergie didn't reinvest the Ronaldo money, the transfers were poor, the academy didn't bring anyone worthwhile through, and it cost us long term, even now.

 

[roonster09]

Out of that list only Rio, Ronaldo, Rooney, Vidic, Evra, VDS, Carrick and Tevez were consistently good. Saha was injury prone, Heinze was acceptable, Smith was inconsistent, Park was acceptable, Anderson & nani were inconsistent and Berbatov was an anomaly. (imo, you don't have to agree)
That's about 8/22 which is 33% success rate, so 1/3 which I said earlier. That list doesn't have Rafael & Fabio either does it?

It would be good to see the player's we've bought from 2010 on.

Well lets agree to disagree. Park, Heinze were not just acceptable, they were very good signings, same with Nani. Saha and Hargreaves were very good whenever fit which was rare though, one contributed to Pl success and other one started in CL finals. Considering that, it's a good enough deal. Also Berbatov was top scorer in the league when we won it in 2010-11, he wasn't very good considering complete package but he wasn't bad either.

22 if you consider all the punts signings like Foster, Bellion which so many clubs do without any news. You want to check Chelsea's success rate? I have posted 13 flops and these are not punt signings like Rajkovic and others they signed.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

In a way I guess. I’m not sure he really built a team again after that and instead just kept that one ticking over. Although at one point Anderson,Welbeck,Cleverley actually played some really good stuff.(Arsenal game)
There was a story that he was so impressed with Bielsa’s Bilbao and that is how he wanted United to play.

I think the summer after he went after Hazard and Lucas. Differering reports that he wanted both or Just 1 but it was to play in the manner of that Bilbao team. It never happened and that is when he for me really just focused on working with what he had.

After Ronaldo left tho we tried to sign Sanchez, we tried to sign David Silva and that was confirmed by Valencia. Modric,Thiago and Benzema are all people that Fergie tried to sign oh and Varane after Ronaldo left. That’s one hell of a team so not like we didn’t go for top talent.

 

[ivaldo]

It certainly does. We appear to have deserted the standards set by Alex Ferguson and a large swathe of our support feels that merely finishing in the top four is good enough for this club. We are another few barren years away from becoming the new scousers.

No, they don't think it's good enough for the club, they think it's good enough progression. There's a hell of a difference, and until you stop beating your chest and declaring "we are Manchester United", as if it's some right we have to dominate all other teams, you'll see that. Expecting to return to our glory days in an instant, despite the damage caused by the appointment of Moyes and the reluctance to invest by Fergie, is entirely unrealistic. It's going to take time, and as long as we are making steady improvement (which we are) there will be a "swathe" of fans content with where we currently stand. It's called perspective.

 

[Nuts]

We've lost the 'bite' that we had with brilliant players like Keane, Stam and Scholes, and we've lost the flair and brilliance of players like Ronaldo and Giggs. That combination is what made Fergie teams such a feared prospect. On both those fronts we're a bit meh now.

 

[IronCroos37]

The rot came with the Glazers who bought the club on debt, so we did not have much money back then. We did not spend the ronaldo money and we did not push for clearly great players with great value.

However the biggest rot of them all was appointing Moyes, wich brought our club a couple of levels below despite spending money. Either Pep, Klopp, Mourinho, Ancelloti would have been great to start the post SAF era.

Mourinho would had made a solid team from the start and already been champions at least once in 5 years if not more! When Mou would have left, the next managers would have won as well because Mou usually buys solid players.

 

[Green_Red]

We're in a very good position and we should be happy with our improvement this season for sure

However, to say "What more do you want" does show a slight lack of ambition IMO. In life, there is absolutely nothing wrong in aiming high and being ambitious, as long as it is tempered by realism. Your scathing reply to @padzilla who suggests that we could at least aim for first is telling of your mentality/the mentality of many fans.

We certainly don't have any divine right for trophies, and I think Jose has done an excellent, excellent job this season. But we mustn't forget the ultimate goal, we mustn't become Arsenal. Its important to still dream and have hope of eventually coming 1st.

The vilification of @padzilla is wrong, and tells me that our mentality as a fanbase should be altered slightly in some cases

I'm expecting a huge amount of scathing criticism on this, which, whilst I have tried to stay balanced and pragmatic, is inevitable I guess...

Im sorry but I think the constant negativity and nit picking that goes on is fecking ridiculous. Last season we won the Europa League, the year before we won the FA cup. Right now we are second in the league to a City team playing some of thr best football any team in England has ever played. To be unhappy with our current position shows a level of entitlement that is downright ugly and not befitting supporters of Manchester United. Yes weve had a tough time of it but to say that a 'rot' set in when that team Ronaldo left went on to another European Cup final and won another two leagues without him (losing one to a city team that won with literally the last kick of the season) is revisionism. Ronaldo was good but he definitely wasnt a one man team at United, far from it. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous to the players that played their hearts out for us fans after he left.

As for lack of ambition, get serious ffs, read that back, the only ambition you can have as a fan is to see your team win tge next game... Which weve done all but 4 or 5 times this season. Like what the feck do you want from them? To steamroll every team? That didnt even happen under Ferguson. The main reason we were so dominant was due to lack of challengers... Now with TV money theres a TOP SIX... It used to be a top 2 when we were dominating the league!!!

Liverpool just spent £76 million on a defender and sold a player for £146 million and they havent won a league in 27 years!!! And you are naive enough to think that Man Utd should be some sort of invincible all destroying bunch of winning robots. Its not that simplistic, only a simpleton would think it was... And in years passed, our current form would have won a league title. Its just that City are so good now we have all these "fans" coming out with tripe like they arent seeing whats actually going on on the pitch.

 

[JK-27]

Rot is not the right word, but I would say is we've lost our allure. Many players aspired to play for Man Utd because we had world class players, played attractive football, and were winners.

There has been a steady decline in the allure that Man Utd has in attracting world class talent (and in defence of Rooney this was part of why he handed in his transfer request those few years back, because he [rightly] felt we weren't looking to buy world class talent/world class talent wasn't interested in joining). And that has got worse as we've stopped playing attractive football, aren't the dominant force we were, and other clubs in the PL and around Europe can now out buy us in the transfer market.

 

[villain]

I wouldn't disagree with that though, obviously having the greatest manager of all time helped matters. I'm unsure as to how it's relevant to your original "point", which was:

"Ronaldo papered over a lot of cracks, the rot started much earlier."

and really, there's very little to back any of that up at all. We recruited really well during that period (Ronaldo, Rooney, Carrick, Vidic, Evra, VDS etc) and had some good academy players come through (Brown, Fletcher), and ended up winning the league five times and reaching the CL final three times between 06-13 as a result. Clearly the problem was 09-13 where Fergie didn't reinvest the Ronaldo money, the transfers were poor, the academy didn't bring anyone worthwhile through, and it cost us long term, even now.

We also should have done much better in the CL in the early part of the century.
Chelsea managed to reach the semi-finals 2 years in a row from 2003 season, went out at the last 16 the following season, then went on to go to 3 more semi-finals in the following 3 years (i could be wrong i'd have to check)
In that same period I think we had only 1 semi-final appearance, Liverpool and 2 (and 1 win) and I think Arsenal had 2 also - just not good enough, of course we went on to win it 2008, but by then the seeds were sown, Barca's team were a completely different gulf in class than ours when we met them in the final and that was a difficult pill to swallow, and it didn't happen overnight and it shouldn't have been the case either.

Yes we were winning leagues but what else? Domestically we were turning over Bolton, Sunderland, Wigan and whoever else, but on the biggest stage in club football we just weren't good enough. We're Manchester United.
Our FA Cup record at that time should have been much better too.
We're still struggling to perform at the highest stage, it's been happening for far too many years now.

Can anybody say with confidence the next time they anticipate us in the Finals of the CL?
Reaching the Semi's should be expected for our club as far as i'm concerned.

Well lets agree to disagree. Park, Heinze were not just acceptable, they were very good signings, same with Nani. Saha and Hargreaves were very good whenever fit which was rare though, one contributed to Pl success and other one started in CL finals. Considering that, it's a good enough deal. Also Berbatov was top scorer in the league when we won it in 2010-11, he wasn't very good considering complete package but he wasn't bad either.

22 if you consider all the punts signings like Foster, Bellion which so many clubs do without any news. You want to check Chelsea's success rate? I have posted 13 flops and these are not punt signings like Rajkovic and others they signed.

I loved Park as a player, but he was playing with other great players which brought out better appearances from him - I mean that's what a team is about, it can't all be superstars, but I wouldn't call him a "gem" as such, probably the blueprint of the ideal squad player, yes but he wasn't really a main key to our success in that time too, same with Heinze. I might be being too harsh on them, but I don't think they fall in the same band as the likes of Rio/Vidic/VDS etc as great buys, they should be the minimum that expect (imo)

Nani frustrated me far more than he excited me, which is why I called him inconsistent. Again, Saha & Hargreaves were brilliant but at times could hardly make more than 20 appearances a season at times, so objectively they weren't efficient buys. Berbatov was an anomaly like I said, personally I loved the guy, but he wasn't what we needed and didn't really gel, he's a good player but he was a bad purchase considering we had a much more fluid and pacey attack prior, and the team didn't adapt to him, but yes he still scored goals.

It's not so much a competition between us and Chelsea, i'm not suggesting that they are the perfect model - I was just using them as an example because they play in the same league as us.

 

[Massive Spanner]

We also should have done much better in the CL in the early part of the century.
Chelsea managed to reach the semi-finals 2 years in a row from 2003 season, went out at the last 16 the following season, then went on to go to 3 more semi-finals in the following 3 years (i could be wrong i'd have to check)
In that same period I think we had only 1 semi-final appearance, Liverpool and 2 (and 1 win) and I think Arsenal had 2 also - just not good enough, of course we went on to win it 2008, but by then the seeds were sown, Barca's team were a completely different gulf in class than ours when we met them in the final and that was a difficult pill to swallow, and it didn't happen overnight and it shouldn't have been the case either.

Yes we were winning leagues but what else? Domestically we were turning over Bolton, Sunderland, Wigan and whoever else, but on the biggest stage in club football we just weren't good enough. We're Manchester United.
Our FA Cup record at that time should have been much better too.
We're still struggling to perform at the highest stage, it's been happening for far too many years now.

Can anybody say with confidence the next time they anticipate us in the Finals of the CL?
Reaching the Semi's should be expected for our club as far as i'm concerned.

Again what does this have to do with your original point? You tell me I'm missing the point and then start going off on a weird tangent like this. Odd.

 

[villain]

Again what does this have to do with your original point? You tell me I'm missing the point and then start going off on a weird tangent like this. Odd.

Outside of the league we've failed to compete, and failed to be as successful in the CL as we should have been, and again that's been a prominent feature since the turn of the century. Also given the success of Co92 its odd that it's taken over 20 years for us to address and reinvest back in our academy.

That's why i'm saying the rot started earlier, these issues aren't new, and winning the league multiple times doesn't hide this either.

 

[diarm]

I agree with the idea that 2nd place in the league and still in the Champions League is not a rot.

But four consecutive seasons of 7th, 4th, 5th and 6th place seasons could most certainly be called a rot. Yes there was the Fergie retirement and subsequent procession of underachieving managers to follow. But as easy as it is to blame everything on Moyes and Van Gaal, there's no doubt that our recruitment policy (or lack thereof) has been poor for years, I'd argue even stretching back before to Ronaldo left.

That United side of 2006-2008 was the best side in Europe. We were still a massive draw to players all over the world in a way we simply aren't anymore.

Berbatov was the first really misguided signing. A cracking player but one an attack needed to be built around. That was never going to happen in a forward line with Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez so we just ended up misusing him and never getting his best. It felt like signing a big name for a big names sake, without any actual planning or foresight into whether he was necessary and how he would be used and I remember feeling when he left that the club failed him more than he did us.

The following season Ronaldo left. It happens. But look at Barcelonas reaction to losing Neymar - they used the money to sign Dembele, Semedo and Coutinho and will likely sign Veratti and maybe Griezmann as well next summer. We used the Ronaldo money to sign Obertan, Owen and Valencia in a summer players like Robben, Sneijder, Benzema, Ozil. David Silva, Villa, Yaya Toure and Ibrahimovic were all attainable.

The following season we signed Bebe, Smalling, Chicharito and Lindegaard. Say what you want about signing younger prospects (and I prefer that too), but the failure to bring in a world class statement player to replace Ronaldo, affected the prestige and standing in which we were viewed by players and fans around the world. That was the moment United stopped seeming like an invincible super club, less a rival of Real Madrid or Barcelona and more a rival to the likes of Chelsea and City.

Since then we have had a few good signings (De Gea, Van Persie), a few alright signings but until Jose arrived last year, many odd signings which felt just like getting a player in without much thought spent on where we needed him and how to use him.

We didn't spend the Ronaldo money because Fergie didn't feel there was value in the market at the top end. Fine. But then we didn't install a recruitment structure which focused on bringing in younger prospects to meet the needs and style of the side. We just ended up with this weird mishmash of a system where we threw money at average to good players with some of it sticking and a lot more of it missing by a distance.

 

[edgar allan]

Im sorry but I think the constant negativity and nit picking that goes on is fecking ridiculous. Last season we won the Europa League, the year before we won the FA cup. Right now we are second in the league to a City team playing some of thr best football any team in England has ever played. To be unhappy with our current position shows a level of entitlement that is downright ugly and not befitting supporters of Manchester United. Yes weve had a tough time of it but to say that a 'rot' set in when that team Ronaldo left went on to another European Cup final and won another two leagues without him (losing one to a city team that won with literally the last kick of the season) is revisionism. Ronaldo was good but he definitely wasnt a one man team at United, far from it. To suggest otherwise is disingenuous to the players that played their hearts out for us fans after he left.

As for lack of ambition, get serious ffs, read that back, the only ambition you can have as a fan is to see your team win tge next game... Which weve done all but 4 or 5 times this season. Like what the feck do you want from them? To steamroll every team? That didnt even happen under Ferguson. The main reason we were so dominant was due to lack of challengers... Now with TV money theres a TOP SIX... It used to be a top 2 when we were dominating the league!!!

Liverpool just spent £76 million on a defender and sold a player for £146 million and they havent won a league in 27 years!!! And you are naive enough to think that Man Utd should be some sort of invincible all destroying bunch of winning robots. Its not that simplistic, only a simpleton would think it was... And in years passed, our current form would have won a league title. Its just that City are so good now we have all these "fans" coming out with tripe like they arent seeing whats actually going on on the pitch.

Some of us are at the games and the concern is not the distance that we are behind City but the often poor and negative standard of football on the pitch
Pointing out the obvious is not being a simpleton or ugly self entitlement just honest concerns regarding the direction this team are going.

 

[Foxbatt]

SAF felt that we were good enough to win the PL and the CL. Ok, we kept winning the PL but kept losing to Barca in the CL Final. It is not a bad success rate and in fact a very good enough with the team he had. The rot set in when SAF decided that Moyes is the Manager for United.
Moyes did not need 5 to 6 players. He needed to keep the coaching staff and let them run the show as SAF used to and we would have won something.

 

[Un4givableB]

I agree with the idea that 2nd place in the league and still in the Champions League is not a rot.

But four consecutive seasons of 7th, 4th, 5th and 6th place seasons could most certainly be called a rot. Yes there was the Fergie retirement and subsequent procession of underachieving managers to follow. But as easy as it is to blame everything on Moyes and Van Gaal, there's no doubt that our recruitment policy (or lack thereof) has been poor for years, I'd argue even stretching back before to Ronaldo left.

That United side of 2006-2008 was the best side in Europe. We were still a massive draw to players all over the world in a way we simply aren't anymore.

Berbatov was the first really misguided signing. A cracking player but one an attack needed to be built around. That was never going to happen in a forward line with Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez so we just ended up misusing him and never getting his best. It felt like signing a big name for a big names sake, without any actual planning or foresight into whether he was necessary and how he would be used and I remember feeling when he left that the club failed him more than he did us.

The following season Ronaldo left. It happens. But look at Barcelonas reaction to losing Neymar - they used the money to sign Dembele, Semedo and Coutinho and will likely sign Veratti and maybe Griezmann as well next summer. We used the Ronaldo money to sign Obertan, Owen and Valencia in a summer players like Robben, Sneijder, Benzema, Ozil. David Silva, Villa, Yaya Toure and Ibrahimovic were all attainable.

The following season we signed Bebe, Smalling, Chicharito and Lindegaard. Say what you want about signing younger prospects (and I prefer that too), but the failure to bring in a world class statement player to replace Ronaldo, affected the prestige and standing in which we were viewed by players and fans around the world. That was the moment United stopped seeming like an invincible super club, less a rival of Real Madrid or Barcelona and more a rival to the likes of Chelsea and City.

Since then we have had a few good signings (De Gea, Van Persie), a few alright signings but until Jose arrived last year, many odd signings which felt just like getting a player in without much thought spent on where we needed him and how to use him.

We didn't spend the Ronaldo money because Fergie didn't feel there was value in the market at the top end. Fine. But then we didn't install a recruitment structure which focused on bringing in younger prospects to meet the needs and style of the side. We just ended up with this weird mishmash of a system where we threw money at average to good players with some of it sticking and a lot more of it missing by a distance.

I agree with 99% of this.

Apart from the signing of Berbatov,on paper(just like Veron) it looked like the right deal,besides it what big clubs do & what we used to do,go to clubs like Spurs and take their best players.

I can't imagine us doing that now,we wouldn't be willing to pay the money that was needed to get Kane or Ali from Spurs but even worse l don't think they think coming to us would be much of a step up.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

What rot, we're feckin second in the league and still in the CL. What more do you want?

This.We"ve won 2 league titles,2 league cups,a Fa cup and a Europa league since then....We broke the world transfer record and we signed a 75 million striker last summer...We are second in the league and we"re still in the CL.....Yeah,the rot really set in...

 

[charlenefan]

To answer the OP no obviously not and dont be stupid

 

[b82REZ]

I agree with 99% of this.

Apart from the signing of Berbatov,on paper(just like Veron) it looked like the right deal,besides it what big clubs do & what we used to do,go to clubs like Spurs and take their best players.

I can't imagine us doing that now,we wouldn't be willing to pay the money that was needed to get Kane or Ali from Spurs but even worse l don't think they think coming to us would be much of a step up.

United will always be a step up from Spurs, despite the self flagellation of a lot of our fan base. If we actively persued a Spurs player they would likely be lining up in red. Only really Madrid, Barca and to a lesser extent City or Chelsea would be viewed as viable options if they were to leave Tottingham.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Outside of the league we've failed to compete, and failed to be as successful in the CL as we should have been, and again that's been a prominent feature since the turn of the century. Also given the success of Co92 its odd that it's taken over 20 years for us to address and reinvest back in our academy.

That's why i'm saying the rot started earlier, these issues aren't new, and winning the league multiple times doesn't hide this either.

Nah, disagree.

We were in the CL finals three times between 06-11 and were beaten in two of them by one of the best club sides, if not the best of all time. We were incredibly strong in Europe during those years.

 

[el3mel]

In short response, yes.

However it's now many years after Ronaldo left. I don't think not replacing him can be the cause of our problems post SAF now. It's just we kept buying badly.

 

[villain]

Nah, disagree.

We were in the CL finals three times between 06-11 and were beaten in two of them by one of the best club sides, if not the best of all time. We were incredibly strong in Europe during those years.

Equally you could say we've reached the CL Finals 4 times in the last 20 years, winning it twice. It depends on how you spin it.
I don't think that record is good enough, if you disagree that's fine.

Also the Barca team didn't come into their own until 07/08, before then European dominance was definitely up for grabs and we should have done far better.

Winning domestically when the league was more fractured and there was a bigger difference between the top 4 was different to being one of the top teams in Europe.
In the last 15 years I think only that 06-09 team can say they were capable of beating anybody in Europe.

 

[Rood]

we had plenty of success after he left so NO !

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

Rooney was right!

He's not as thick as most think. He saw the under investment and was first to say this ain't right.

We really should have bought Ozil after the 2010 world cup.