There is no rebuilding underway. The word implies a nuance in the process, with old cycles being closed for good and new ones opening. There should be an element of bravery and risk involved. We're just a club going through the motions, hoping desperately that something works out when things look bad. And save a penny when we can...
Did United Rebuild the Wrong Way Round?
- Thread starter Walters_19_MuFc
- Start date
I know things have change but the idea of the central spine of excellence in; GK :2 CB's : CM :CF is still the bedrock of any top side. However, it never arrives together unless you have some luck as well as excellent scouts with highly effective prediction skills.
AC/DC Mid field has been a continuing problem now for years. Matic combined the role well for us for a season and a half, Casemiro just lately, but even allowing for Carrick at his best, we have never had the complete DCM/ACM together in one player since (in my opinion) Bryan Robson. 'Robbo's' speed over the ground (box to box) to rescue defensive situations and his arrival late in the opponents box to confuse the opposition defenders, were legendary.
If we had that one ACM/DCM in one excellent individual, then any 'wing-man' CM with the ability to 'sit' within a defined space, could make up the ideal (much sort after at OT) '2-man midfield'.
AC/DC Mid field has been a continuing problem now for years. Matic combined the role well for us for a season and a half, Casemiro just lately, but even allowing for Carrick at his best, we have never had the complete DCM/ACM together in one player since (in my opinion) Bryan Robson. 'Robbo's' speed over the ground (box to box) to rescue defensive situations and his arrival late in the opponents box to confuse the opposition defenders, were legendary.
If we had that one ACM/DCM in one excellent individual, then any 'wing-man' CM with the ability to 'sit' within a defined space, could make up the ideal (much sort after at OT) '2-man midfield'.
I was happy with last summers transfer window, and i've been happy with this one so far. Last summer we desperately needed forwards and a goalkeeper, so that's what we got. This summer we desperately needed midfielders, so that's what we got. I'm sure there will be a focus on defense next summer. When that is completed, there will be some of our forward and probably midfield signings that hasn't worked out and needs to be replaced. That is the natural way of things, but compared to previous years, the age of the players that has to be sold means that they will actually have some resell value - and their salary most likely won't be a problem, unlike the Rashford situation.
Take a look at all of Artetas Arsenal signings+departures and accept that it takes time to assemble a great team. I think the rebuild is going to plan. The plan seems pretty obvious and straightforward to me.
Take a look at all of Artetas Arsenal signings+departures and accept that it takes time to assemble a great team. I think the rebuild is going to plan. The plan seems pretty obvious and straightforward to me.
I really hope we don't have to wait 7 years only to play like Stoke. That might not even be worth the PL trophy.
Ah who am I kidding, there is no guarantee of entertainment anyway. If the option is 'no success nor entertainment' vs 'some success at the very least', then I have to pick the latter.
We were desperate for midfielders in 2006, but what did Fergie do? He signed two defenders in Evra and Vidic. Always sort your defense.
You've waited two times that to play like we did againt Hull!
I think we're all hoping that things will start to gel more, but I think the transfer strategy right now is the right one. It's impossible to change the entire squad in a year or two.Are you listening, Jason Wilcox? Just sign two future club legends for our defense. It's that simple!
No, we tried to reinforce the defense. But MdL is crocked and Yoro took time to adapt. The summer after we couldn't afford to not reshape the attack, it was Championship level in 24-25.
It's fine. I thought it was a mistake not looking to sell at least one CB and go hard after an upgrade there though. Maguire should NOT still be first choice for any team looking to contend, and Martinez and MdL are crocked (and not quite good enough anyways). So a lot is falling on the young kids to step up. Hopefully they do.
It's fine. I thought it was a mistake not looking to sell at least one CB and go hard after an upgrade there though. Maguire should NOT still be first choice for any team looking to contend, and Martinez and MdL are crocked (and not quite good enough anyways). So a lot is falling on the young kids to step up. Hopefully they do.
You've waited two times that to play like we did againt Hull!
I agree. I think a combination of proven PL players in their mid 20's + up-and-coming young talent is the way to go long term. Lammens in particular looks like a gem. And while they aren't necessarily that sexy, Mbeumo and Cunha can hurt strong PL opponents. They're certainly a step up from the likes of Depay, Sancho and Antony.
But the muppet in me would like to see us spice things up with a marquee signing every 1-2 years. I love Bruno, but he's carrying too much responsibility alone.
Right, I will bother to do this now I'm at the computer and have a keyboard.
So I understand the approach of summer 2025, because there was pretty much no room for error. I do disagree fundamentally on splitting the work out in this way. The below sums it up quite well.
If I look at how someone like Arsenal did it, they didn't do it that way at all.
2021/22:
Ben White - RB/CB
Ramsdale - GK
Odegaard - AM/CM
Tomiyasu - RB/CB
Lokonga - CM
2022/23
Jesus - CF
Zinchenko - LB
Viera - AM
Trossard - LW/AM
Kiwior - CB
Jorginho - DM/CM
2023/24
Rice - DM
Havertz - AM/CF
Timber - RB/CB
Raya - GK
2024/25
Califiori - LB/CB
Merino - CM
2025/26
Zubimendi - DM
Eze - AM
Gyokeres - CF
Madueke - RW
Mosquera - CB
Norgaard - CM
Hincape - CB
There was always a smattering of loans, like Sterling and super cheap options to fill the squad up. Notice every window they bought a CB and nearly all of them could play FB as well. Not once did they opt for this big bang approach on one area of the pitch, because it's not a holistic approach and leaves obvious gaps. If you look at those players, none of them are or were 'best in class' or the biggest prospects (bar Rice, obviously), they are the right tactical fit for the style they wanted to play. The bolded would be those a big part of the title winning squad. Gabriel came in the 20/21 season and Saliba was bought and loaned out from 19/20.
So to me, progressing the team by investingin the profiles you want to implement your tactics/game model and slowly replacing the quality is the most important. We seem to doing a sort of field of dreams model, where if you build one bit as best as you possibly can, the rest of the team will follow - which I think is futile. You will likely run out of a) time b) money and c) fan patience with this approach.
You can build the great posession midfield, but it's useless when your team sits in and the spare men you have (FBs or CBs), can't contribute to the attack. If you also build an attack that are suited to transition football (I would say Cunha, Mbuemo and Sesko all are. Wolves, Brentford, any RB team), it's not really going to marry with a possesion heavy midfield. There needs to be more joined up thinking, else you end up with a frankenstein again, of good individual players, but not a good team or squad.
So in my opinion, we haven't done it the wrong way round, we've done it the wrong way. I hope to be proven wrong and will take that humble pie with pleasure.
This is a really good post.
What I would add is that the year things really started to change for Arsenal stylistically was 21-22 and it was because that summer we bought White and Tomiyasu, which allowed us to play a totally different style higher up the pitch as now we had the back line to do it with those two plus Gabriel. LB was still a problem area as Tierney couldn't stay fit and our main backup, Nuno Tavares, was tragic. But having 3/4 defenders who were athletic enough and really good in the duels allowed the team to learn to control matches territorially in way we didn't even try in the previous two seasons when we had the likes of David Luiz, Rob Holding, Calum Chambers, Sokratis, Pablo Mari, Cedric Soares, etc in the back line.
Of course. What would you rate as a marquee signing today?
We needed to sign attackers last summer. We had:
- Amad
- Hoijlund (completely devoid of confidence and looked like a Sunday league player at times)
- Garnacho (fell out with the manager, hasn't looked good enough)
- Rashford (fell out with the manager, has looked like a rotation piece elsewhere)
We needed to sign midfielders this summer. We had:
- Mainoo
- Ugarte (out for the season and not good enough)
- Mount (unreliable)
I think people who are looking at it as some planned "lets rebuild attack this summer, lets rebuild midfield this summer, lets rebuild defence next summer" are retrofitting the narrative a little, when in reality we are purely addressing the biggest holes each summer. It's why we signed a goalkeeper last summer during out "attacking rebuild", it's also why we will probably sign a left back this summer during our "midfield rebuild".
Also worth noting our central defence is in a strange state - our two best players are injury prone and unreliable. We have two young guys who aren't ready to be the main man. The guy we probably should be looking to move on from, is our most reliable defender. I can see why it would be a difficult decision to know which direction to go in. This season will give us a much better indication of where we are at with the defence. In the same way 24/25 was like a referendum for our attack.
I get everyone is losing their heads after the loss, but I hate this rewriting history in hindsight.
- Amad
- Hoijlund (completely devoid of confidence and looked like a Sunday league player at times)
- Garnacho (fell out with the manager, hasn't looked good enough)
- Rashford (fell out with the manager, has looked like a rotation piece elsewhere)
We needed to sign midfielders this summer. We had:
- Mainoo
- Ugarte (out for the season and not good enough)
- Mount (unreliable)
I think people who are looking at it as some planned "lets rebuild attack this summer, lets rebuild midfield this summer, lets rebuild defence next summer" are retrofitting the narrative a little, when in reality we are purely addressing the biggest holes each summer. It's why we signed a goalkeeper last summer during out "attacking rebuild", it's also why we will probably sign a left back this summer during our "midfield rebuild".
Also worth noting our central defence is in a strange state - our two best players are injury prone and unreliable. We have two young guys who aren't ready to be the main man. The guy we probably should be looking to move on from, is our most reliable defender. I can see why it would be a difficult decision to know which direction to go in. This season will give us a much better indication of where we are at with the defence. In the same way 24/25 was like a referendum for our attack.
I get everyone is losing their heads after the loss, but I hate this rewriting history in hindsight.
Exactly, whilst Tomiyasu wasn't the long term option, stylistically he was a perfect fit. That allowed you to upgrade him for the likes of Timber, Calafiori, Hincape, because you knew exactly the profile you were looking for. When you look at 22/23 as well, you competed with players everyone would have turned their noses up here. Some of them slowly moved back into squad players as you added quality and others were short term, like Jorginho.
I honestly couldn't tell
I only follow United and the national team.I guess Isak last summer would be an example. Anderson this year might just about count, although I'm not sure. Mbappe and Bellingham when they went to Real would obviously also count. As would Kane to Bayern, even though he was 30 years old.
I can't see us ever getting a marquee signing from Real, Barca, Bayern, PSG or any of our domestic rivals. With the exception of RVP that just doesn't happen.
The midfield is completely revamped with one new player yet to even start training. Add in the World Cup where some players are short of fitness, and it’s likely going to be October and possibly November when the players can finally gel and find some chemistry. The performances of spurs, Liverpool and city is an indicator of how things will likely go for the top 6 clubs apart from
Arsenal who have a settled squad and manager.
The same people complaining now after one game were likely applauding the great business we did last summer in addressing the attack and starting GK. It is way too early to judge whether the club approached the rebuild correctly given we’re likely to add a LB before the window closes. Hopefully this thread blows up in the faces of those who are already shitting themselves after 1 game.
Arsenal who have a settled squad and manager.
The same people complaining now after one game were likely applauding the great business we did last summer in addressing the attack and starting GK. It is way too early to judge whether the club approached the rebuild correctly given we’re likely to add a LB before the window closes. Hopefully this thread blows up in the faces of those who are already shitting themselves after 1 game.
At the time attack was an absolute priority
We had
a sulking Rashford
An underwhelming Hojlund
And a selfish cnut in Garnacho
If our defence had been sorted and we were still misfiring. You likely would have posted the same thread, but claiming we should have started with forwards
Out attack was woeful - sorted
Our midfield was thin - sorted
Defence for a long time has been serviceable if not spectacular
Here’s hoping next summer with what’s in front of them…we can at long last sort our full backs out and get a reliable, strong, fast cb
We had
a sulking Rashford
An underwhelming Hojlund
And a selfish cnut in Garnacho
If our defence had been sorted and we were still misfiring. You likely would have posted the same thread, but claiming we should have started with forwards
Out attack was woeful - sorted
Our midfield was thin - sorted
Defence for a long time has been serviceable if not spectacular
Here’s hoping next summer with what’s in front of them…we can at long last sort our full backs out and get a reliable, strong, fast cb
I think the defense looks "artificially" bad because:
1. We haven't had a defensive midfielder with reasonably quick legs for a while. Baleba should help with this.
2. Martinez' injuries turned out to be a pattern rather than bad luck (it wasn't always obvious, based on the nature of the injuries)
3. De Ligt might have some of the same issues. So that's both first choice options out.
4. Shaw, at the age of 30 and a career riddled with injuries, suddenly manages to keep these issues in check. Although that has come at the cost of his attacking, which makes the LB situation less than ideal.
5. Dorgu got "converted" to a LW. Although that might be his best position when we don't play 3 at the back.
5. Dalot and Mazraoui are quite decent RB options, but nothing special either.
1. We haven't had a defensive midfielder with reasonably quick legs for a while. Baleba should help with this.
2. Martinez' injuries turned out to be a pattern rather than bad luck (it wasn't always obvious, based on the nature of the injuries)
3. De Ligt might have some of the same issues. So that's both first choice options out.
4. Shaw, at the age of 30 and a career riddled with injuries, suddenly manages to keep these issues in check. Although that has come at the cost of his attacking, which makes the LB situation less than ideal.
5. Dorgu got "converted" to a LW. Although that might be his best position when we don't play 3 at the back.
5. Dalot and Mazraoui are quite decent RB options, but nothing special either.
what's artificial about that, that's just a list of facts!
Poor luck with injuries and lack of protection in midfield makes the issues more pressing.
Shaw - Martinez - De Ligt - Dalot/Maz
‐-------------------- Lammens ‐--------‐-----------
In a modern context I don't think that this is a bad backline at all. I'd want an LB who attacks better and obviously fewer injuries to the CBs, but in terms of pure skill it's not bad.
And that's part of the problem isn't it? It's a complete myth that our recruitment has improved under Ineos. Cunha, Mbuemo and Lammens have been decent signings and that's it.
Scenes when Shaw and Maguire get new 5 year deals
I thought De Ligt was pre ineos
I'm fairly certain they all came in the same summer but I could be wrong.
The last 10 that came in for fees pre INEOS....
Højlund, Mount, Casemiro, Onana, Antony, Martínez, Malacia, Sancho, Varane, Ronaldo that cost a combined £514.9m
5 of which left on a free. Onana will be a 50mil loss as he wont ever be sold. Mount is near worthless. Antony we got 1/4 of the price paid. Højlund we lost £30mil. Martínez, its 50/50 if he gets a new contract.
Oh, and then there is the huge wages given to most of these player, making the job of selling impossible.
You would rather take the above than the 10 than have come in under INEOS, prior to this summers window...
Yoro, De Ligt, Mazraoui, Ugarte, Zirkzee, Cunha, Mbeumo, Šeško, Dorgu, Heaven for a combined £429.6m.
Yoro & De Ligt there is hope for still. Cunha, Mbeumo, Šeško, Dorgu, Heaven have been pretty successful so far. Maz is servacable in the squad. Ugarte and Zirkzee clear fails.
Pacho went to PSG for 5M less than De Ligt. If we'd gotten that decision right instead, we'd be in a much better place, with Licha or Yoro partnering him.
The order has been fine, we just need to make better decisions.
Yoro has talent, so that one is fine, and Dorgu was a 3 at the back failed manager transition cost who I think we'd get some money back from a mid-table Prem side that is happy to play on the counter and get a hardworking, athletic 2-way winger back.
Heaven is still visibly getting used to CB and should not be starting, but he has lots of talent we could sell for a big profit to another Prem side, even if that's because they think he's an LB or they play 3 at the back (I think a lot of managers would have issues with his aerial work and lack of sensing of danger, he's just not a natural CB) and he's got above average technical quality and athleticism as a base to start with.
But De Ligt and Ugarte were mistakes. De Ligt isn't bad, but even when he does get healthy, I do think eventually his injuries will make him too slow for this level - he's not got pace to burn - and if we'd bought a decent 6 or 8 instead of Ugarte (should have happened well before 2024) we could have spent the money we spent on Baleba, Tielemans or Santos this summer on a CB. I'm assuming we'll get an LB regardless.
Arsenal literally have, at minimum, 7 defenders they wouldn't trade for any of ours in terms of being a good bet to play 40+ games well this season. And it might be 9. That's completely insane.
We're gonna need, bare minimum 3 new defenders next summer. An LB, a CB and an RB and then you have Lisandro/De Ligt who I'm counting as one guy as the other CB with Yoro, Heaven and whichever of Lisandro/De Ligt is probably as the backups at CB and the LB I assume we'll bring in these next couple of weeks and Dalot as backup fullbacks, which is fine. If we move on from De Ligt and Lisandro and try to get healthy CBs with size and pace, we're gonna need 2 of them and to really trust Yoro, and ideally one of the FBs would be a big guy who can play CB too as the 5th one.
Rather than the attack-midfield-defence order, I think we got the rebuild wrong in another way this summer: we didn't upgrade our midfield
We did great last summer since Cunha, Mbeumo, Sesko, Lammens were clear upgrades on Garnacho, Hojlund, Antony, Onana we used to have.
However, I doubt if many fans here actually think Santos-Tielemans-Bruno are clear upgrades on Casemio-Mainoo-Bruno.
This is the transfer mistake we commit often: we waste lots of money on non-top players that are not clear upgrade on existing options. For example, we kept buying unproven 2nd tier young CBs in the past 15 years, this stategy failed miserably.
We did great last summer since Cunha, Mbeumo, Sesko, Lammens were clear upgrades on Garnacho, Hojlund, Antony, Onana we used to have.
However, I doubt if many fans here actually think Santos-Tielemans-Bruno are clear upgrades on Casemio-Mainoo-Bruno.
This is the transfer mistake we commit often: we waste lots of money on non-top players that are not clear upgrade on existing options. For example, we kept buying unproven 2nd tier young CBs in the past 15 years, this stategy failed miserably.
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You cannot be proven right in this as we won't know what happens if we sign this or that. Arsenal did what they did based on what they have at that time. Their squad at that time were different to what we have this time and last season. The systems were different including the managers.Right, I will bother to do this now I'm at the computer and have a keyboard.
So I understand the approach of summer 2025, because there was pretty much no room for error. I do disagree fundamentally on splitting the work out in this way. The below sums it up quite well.
If I look at how someone like Arsenal did it, they didn't do it that way at all.
2021/22:
Ben White - RB/CB
Ramsdale - GK
Odegaard - AM/CM
Tomiyasu - RB/CB
Lokonga - CM
2022/23
Jesus - CF
Zinchenko - LB
Viera - AM
Trossard - LW/AM
Kiwior - CB
Jorginho - DM/CM
2023/24
Rice - DM
Havertz - AM/CF
Timber - RB/CB
Raya - GK
2024/25
Califiori - LB/CB
Merino - CM
2025/26
Zubimendi - DM
Eze - AM
Gyokeres - CF
Madueke - RW
Mosquera - CB
Norgaard - CM
Hincape - CB
There was always a smattering of loans, like Sterling and super cheap options to fill the squad up. Notice every window they bought a CB and nearly all of them could play FB as well. Not once did they opt for this big bang approach on one area of the pitch, because it's not a holistic approach and leaves obvious gaps. If you look at those players, none of them are or were 'best in class' or the biggest prospects (bar Rice, obviously), they are the right tactical fit for the style they wanted to play. The bolded would be those a big part of the title winning squad. Gabriel came in the 20/21 season and Saliba was bought and loaned out from 19/20.
So to me, progressing the team by investingin the profiles you want to implement your tactics/game model and slowly replacing the quality is the most important. We seem to doing a sort of field of dreams model, where if you build one bit as best as you possibly can, the rest of the team will follow - which I think is futile. You will likely run out of a) time b) money and c) fan patience with this approach.
You can build the great posession midfield, but it's useless when your team sits in and the spare men you have (FBs or CBs), can't contribute to the attack. If you also build an attack that are suited to transition football (I would say Cunha, Mbuemo and Sesko all are. Wolves, Brentford, any RB team), it's not really going to marry with a possesion heavy midfield. There needs to be more joined up thinking, else you end up with a frankenstein again, of good individual players, but not a good team or squad.
So in my opinion, we haven't done it the wrong way round, we've done it the wrong way. I hope to be proven wrong and will take that humble pie with pleasure.
We went for attackers last season because we still had Casemiro, while Bruno was going to play in the double pivot under Amorim with Mainoo and Ugarte as the backup option. At that time, we didn't exactly need new midfield for depth as we played only 1 game a week. But we tried to sign Baleba so we wanted new midfielder for long term to replace Casemiro and upgrade of Ugarte but it wasn't something we were desperate to sign that we need to spend ridiculous money what Brighton were asking.
This season, we went for midfielder after Amorim was sacked, Bruno is back to his no 10 position, Casemiro is leaving, while Ugarte already had his 2 seasons with us and proven to be nowhere near good enough even as midfield squad depth option. So given the fact that we have 5 CB and we are short in midfield area, we focus on midfield signings this season with also could be a left back as we are also short in that area.
The club also considered Licha as important figure for leadership and de Ligt had good season last season before his injury. In addition, we mixed those two with experienced defender like Maguire and 2 young players for futue like Yoro and Heaven. Hence why this summer, the club believes they are less desperate for CB while they want to focus on strengthening the midfield and potentially left back. I think it's more likely that the club wants to give Licha, de Ligt, Yoro and Heaven another season to prove themselves before they come into conclusion what they are going to do next in defense.
Arsenal had a far worse squad and had their own "bomb" squad in players like Auba, Lacazette, Pepe, Luiz etc. I totally agree we had different systems, we've had several managers and systems, which is not conducive to targeted recruitment. They decided their system/game model early and backed their manager entirely with it. We still don't know what our system or game model looks like.
It's not about depth though, the manager told the recruitment team his CMs won't work in his system and they just said, change your system - which he didn't. So immediately you've got people out of lock step. Also, this is my point, you don't need a long term Casemiro replacement. You first need to identify the profiles you want in there and so you can first establish the style. Arsenal did this with plenty of stop gaps, until the system was embedded and then they went and spent big - Jorginho being an obvious example.
I mean, this is my exact argument, you don't need to only focus on one area at a time. Heaven isn't currently first team material, so you'd have been better off loaning him where he'll play every week and develop. Allowing you to bring in someone of the profile you want to replace Maguire/Licha when their contract expires/we sell. Then Heaven comes back as the "new signing". There are loads of ways to skin a cat, what we are doing isn't the only option and I personally don't think it's the right one.
Best of luck to them. I think with the system we've been playing, the injury proneness of Martinez/De Ligt and Yoro/Heaven not being of the required level they're just being cheap.
The fact that Arsenal had far worse squad than us or their squad level wasn't the same as ours means their approach was always going to be different to how we approach it.
Why can't we sign players based on the profile we want and still embed the system without signing plenty of stop gaps?
If that's the case then we will need more signings without selling our CB this summer, but we ain't got that money to afford it. Hence why the club needs to idenfy what they need in order to build an establish team that allow the team to be able to compete in multiple competitions and can be comfortable to finish in top 4 more consistently. To achieve this for this season, they identified that midfield and left back were the weak point of the squad need a strengthening.
They had more to do though and in the same time period were way further along.
Quite clearly because of money, much like arsenal had the same problem. We probably have the same relative budget based on how the markers gone. You're saying we have to focus on certain areas and put up with what we have, as it not a priority. I don't think that's true. I think we can also improve and set up our system without breaking the bank. You can say we won't be able to win anything doing that, but you won't win anything like this either.
I feel like I'm saying the same thing here though. We can't afford it the way we're doing it - no. I don't think you need to do it this way and showed arsenal didn't do it that way either.
Yes. Should have started with the board room instead.
And because of that, their approach would be different to ours, hence why they needed to sign plenty of stop gaps as they had more to do to replace players who are not even good enough for midtable.
Let's say if we are going to sign 1 OFF stop gaps CB signing, 1 OFF stop gaps CM signing, and loan out Heaven, there is no more than 50% guarantee that would be better than signing Baleba and keep Heaven.
I think you are focussing too much on what is the best, signing certain areas or be more broad by signing more stop gaps players. You cannot say which one is right or wrong without considering or discussing what the team actually needs.
I'm saying that our approach should not be the same as Arsenal's approach because we both have different circumstance/situation. Different circumstance/situation means both teams will need different positions to sign. For example, you just mentioned that they had more to do due to their squad being worse, therefore, they need to be more broad than us. While we probably can afford to go more on certain areas in comparison to them because their squad were far worse than we are.
It's not about the quality of the player though, as I've said. We simply don't have the profile of player to play higher up the pitch, we've also lost our biggest aerial threat in both boxes.
Sorry, I'm being dumb and not really sure what you mean by the "1 OFF". I don't think everything has to be a one off stop gap, CF is obviously somewhere you can do that. I would say you can easily get a better CB than Heaven who can help us play higher up the pitch and/or is dominiant in the air. I would disagree, because Baleba is the only one that actually addresses a need in the squad. Heaven hasn't shown that he is ready to be a first team player for a side trying to get to the CL. You've now
No, I'm just focusing on what I see as the deficiences in our squad, based on the way we want to play and what we lost this summer. The team needs a better first XI CB that can allow us to play higher up the pitch - maybe they see that as Yoro, but Carrick clearly doesn't. We have lost a huge amount of aerial ability in both boxes by losing Casemiro. We have no one who can deputise for Sesko. Our FBs have become far more important in our play, since we've tried to dominate posession higher up the pitch and none of them are suited to it - they can't cross, they can't beat a man or cover the big space in behind them. We actualy don't have a back up LB. I don't really know how we've seen all that (maybe we haven't) and spent £150m on midfielders, none of them are any good in the air and we have a limited budget. That is why you should look at the needs of the team hollistically, which our current signings and strategy do not show. They are hyper focussed on midfield and everything else will just have to make do.
We literally can't afford to do that though, that's the point. We're saying we now can't afford Hall, because we've already spent the bulk of our budget. If you know your budget isn't going to go that far, spending the majority of it on one area just seems stupid. I'm also not saying to copy Arsenal verbatim. We obviously have different needs, but can you point to a good example where someone built success the way we're currently doing this rebuild? We seem to be doing it as if we have a solid and defined foundation, which we don't.
Ye usually you’d rebuild from back to front right? As the saying goes… defence wins you titles… attack wins you games.
That's just really bad and worse given so many of the signings were so hyped.
We bought De Ligt, Mazraoui, Yoro and Dorgu in 2024. So we did start with the defense. But this is all just a matter of where you decide to draw your starting line.
You never tell me it's not about quality, what you told me was ''it's not about depth''
First of all we play mid-block not high line or high block. Second, we just signed Baleba and he fits the profile that you are hoping us to play and he also fits the profile what I believe we need. And finally, we don't need to resolve everything in 1 window.
So I'm not sure what you disagree there, if anything you agree with what I just told you that Baleba is the player we actually need.
But if we make stopgap signing like what you suggested, we might not be able to afford Baleba which is the player we need and it could be worse for us in the long term.
What I meant by 1 OFF is just 1.
So basically, what you are saying this summer we need 1 or 2 CBs who to play the way how you wants us to play and can offer an aerial threat, then striker who can deputise for Sesko, then we need 2 more FB because our full backs cannot cross and are not suited to play dominant possession higher up the pitch while we don't actually have backup LB. In addition to all of these, I would say we need 3 midfield after we lost casemiro and ugarte because we need 4 midfield to allow us to compete in 4 competition.
Realistically, with just £150m, we won't be able to do what you suggested to look at the needs of the team hollistically because £150m is only going to give us around £37.5m per player for 4 signings.
If what you are focusing is the deficiences in our squad, based on the way we want to play and what we lost this summer. In today's market, resolving all of those that you are focussing on ain't gonna happen with just £150m. The idea of signing 3 midfield and targeting left back is to replace what we lost and strenghtening the depth so we can compete in 4 compeititon and finish in top 4. After that, we can build from that. We are doing it stages by stages.
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There’s no right or wrong way. Klopp turned Liverpool into a fearsome attacking force before fixing their defence. We have made incremental movements and haven’t truly fixed anything yet, and will eventually need to upgrade the coach not to mention some of the dawdling executives.
True that
Exactly, there is no right or wrong.
Trying to use Arsenal as sample is just silly as well as it took Arteta almost 7 years to win the league. Do we really want to wait another 7 years of rebuilding? If poster wants us to do the same way how Arsenal did, we will need lot of patience.
It's not about depth either, you can have a first team player that's not long term going to take you to the title - but they fit the profile of how you build the team. As @Powderfinger pointed out with Tomiyasu. A good example this year would probably have been Tyler Adams (not that I wanted in the slightest), or Antonee Robinson, if they were cheap.
You're talking about out of possesion, I don't deny we're a mid block out of possesion. The issue is how we have been when you have 72% posession and the opposition are camped in their box, we get countered on too easily, because the midfield and defence isn't mobile enough to account for that. Baleba is a great start, but what happens when he's not available, or has an off game? We're back to where we are without him. That's why you need to have a balanced team/squad. Actually, you do need to resolve everything in a window if there's a glaring weakness, which I think teams are going to exploit. That's why you get stop gaps.
I'm saying if we want to hold the ball high up the pitch like we've been doing all pre season, your team needs to be set up for that. The CB's dont have to be an aerial threat, if someone else in the team can provide it, like Casemiro did - but no one in the midfield currently offers that. I don't think we need to spend 150m on midfield, if we're not going to address any of the issues before. You can get 3 midfielders without spending that sort of money.
But we're not done in the market are we? So we have more than £150m to spend. If your argument is we only have £150m, so we should just spend it all on midfield, I fundamentally disagree.
That's the job of the recruitment team, this isn't a unique problem to United - working within a budget. Realisitically, if you could get Tielemans for 35m, did you also need Santos for 50m? Would that 50m been better spent towards Hall? or Raum and Shea Charles? Or a LB/CB like Lukeba? I think the idea is flawed if you don't really address core things that you've lost in Casemiro. Add to the fact the defence is as ill prepared to compete on all fronts, due to a mixture of experience, profile and injury record.
I don't think that's true, the biggest trio all came in one window - VVD, Salah, Robertson. One of their best signings was Matip on a free, the season before last, with Mane and Wijnaldum. They just hit the jackpot with the Coutinho sale, but they still supplemented their big purchases with cheap players like Matip, Robertson and Wijnaldum. The coach then also got the best out of those at the club already, Trent, Henderson, Firmino. That allows you just break the world record for a keeper, because you're happy with your squad.