Do our defenders all get worse over time...?

[glazed]

...or does it just feel that way?

I feel like Luke Shaw is the only exception and even that's arguable. AWB, Maguire, Lindelof, Bailly are all, to my untutored eye, playing worse now than they were 6 months ago or a year ago. And that's before you get into Jones, Rojo, Fosu-Mensa and Brandon Williams. Then again the stats seem to show a fairly reasonable performance and we did finish third. So maybe I'm being unfair.

I'm just curious who is responsible for coaching them? Ole is a striker and Carrick is a midfielder. Whoever it is, I'm not thinking they are doing a great job.

 

[RedIan]

I was having similar thoughts earlier, who is the defensive coach? Yesterday Our defence gave far to much space to the attacking opposition. Is that because our centre halfs are to slow to get tight and can be easily turned and by-passed so to compensate they stand off 6 yards to ensure they are not caught for pace?

My biggest gripe yesterday was our right sided defence, lindelof and AWB. It was very obvious from the offset Brightons main threat was coming down their left, with Trossard, yet AWB and lindelof gave him acres of space all game and failed to snuff him out...and later for the equaliser the other Brighton attacker On the right Had no united player within 8 yds of him on a cross... surely our coaches should have seen the issue and Sorted it, or the captain Maguire should have Sorted it and told AWB to get tight on Trossard.

We desperately need some pace at centre half And far more than we need A right winger - sadly i feel we wont get it This window.

 

[Red Pavan]

I was having similar thoughts earlier, who is the defensive coach? Yesterday Our defence gave far to much space to the attacking opposition. Is that because our centre halfs are to slow to get tight and can be easily turned and by-passed so to compensate they stand off 6 yards to ensure they are not caught for pace?

My biggest gripe yesterday was our right sided defence, lindelof and AWB. It was very obvious from the offset Brightons main threat was coming down their left, with Trossard, yet AWB and lindelof gave him acres of space all game and failed to snuff him out...and later for the equaliser the other Brighton attacker On the right Had no united player within 8 yds of him on a cross... surely our coaches should have seen the issue and Sorted it, or the captain Maguire should have Sorted it and told AWB to get tight on Trossard.

We desperately need some pace at centre half And far more than we need A right winger - sadly i feel we wont get it This window.

We definitely lack a bit of athletic dynamism at the back and this is always exposed against teams that are set up to attack that space/make runs in behind - so effectively those that play a counter attacking style against us showcases our consistent struggles.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

?

Stagnant - 6
1. Maguire - still the same. Some great and good moments, then bad moments. Always like this ever since he join us. Maybe his improvement period is with other club.

2. Bissaka - same ^ not seeing any improvements which is disappointing.

3. Mensah - same ^

4. Jones - same ^ look, he's still playing just like how he perform under SAF. The manager at that time noticed early and put him further away from our box, later managers don't see what his risks are.

5. Bailly - same.

6. Rojo - I mean, he's still good if he play.


Improved - 3
1. Lindelof - improved actually, rubbish at first after joining then slowly improving to an level which is just okay, nothing impressive. Not a level of a first choice CB for top team honestly.

2. Shaw - declined at first and now improved, sort of. When he first joined, he was so good especially attacking. Injuries fecked him up and under Mou's, his attacking get worse but good thing is his defense abilities improving. Under Ole, he's regaining more and more of his attacking, so combine with his now good defense ability, all-around good package... have to improve his fitness specifically injury management.

3. Smalling - improving curve since he join up until 16/17. Now at a good level of strictly defending and aerial threat... with the usual feck-ups now and then plus his many known limitations.


Getting worse - 2
1. Williams - started so well and can actually do both attacking, passing and defending in a way that is just so good and effective even against top team. Then get worse and now at a level that is just.. a risk and sometimes just okay if we're facing a low level team. Hopefully this is just temporary..

2. Dalot - get worse quickly in his 2nd and now 3rd. His first season is quite good for a youngster. Nothing impressive back then but he does showcase his talents especially attacking which is I believe his proficiency than defending. Injuries hindering his progress as does well... many speculative factors.


Just our current players.
Looking at our other post-SAF players, yes, majority seems to get worse or stagnating over time.

 

[Forevergiggs1]

Or maybe they weren't that good to begin with. Even the Leicester fans were saying Maquire was their second best CB but he does seem to have lost a yard of pace and for a player who never had any pace to begin with is very worrying.

Lindelof has never filled me with confidence so in my eyes I don't know if he's worse or not.

AWB is another whose price tag makes him look a lot worse than he probably is. Had a great first season with Palace but there's no way on earth is he worth over 50m. If he had of stayed at Palace he probably would of shone because everything he does wrong at United will be heavily scrutinised and its possible the pressure of playing for United is getting to him.

Bailly if I remember correctly only played a half a season for Villareal before we signed him so once again maybe he isn't as good as people thought he was going to be because there isn't a lot to compare him with. Exactly the same with Dalot.

Jones and Smalling where both signed at a young age and they did look like good players at their former rclubs but injuries have basically destroyed their careers. It's hard to be consistent when both miss large chunks of every season so maybe these 2 shouldn't be put at Uniteds door.

Luke Shaw is a hard one. We obviously signed a top talent but he seems to have stayed static in his development instead of pushing on to become one of the greats. Whether it's because of his attitude or the coaching I just don't know.

Still well too early to be talking about the likes of TFM, Williams and Tuanzebe.

 

[Hoboman]

While some of criticism towards our defenders is absolutely justified, defence is always about collective effort, clear structure and organisation.

We have no idea how to defend the back post and our defensive shape in general often looks like a mess. Playing with defensively impotent Pogba as part of double pivot, slowed down Matic and without organized press doesn't help either.

Moreover, Ole too often sets the team up to counter attack, which invites even more pressure to our backline.

He himself admitted that it is structural problem, but it's almost two years and we yet to see that he is able to fix it and can implement well-balanced attacking and defensive systems, which will be effective during extended period of time.

 

[NoLogo]

All of our players do. It takes new arrivals about 6 months to lose form and turn to shite as well, some even faster.

 

[Sandikan]

Some sitcom had an expression about how "new is always better".

You can see that with signings. They come in with the freshness, and seem better.
And then you start recognising every single flaw with them, and the classic familiarity breeds contempt line comes to pass.

 

[croadyman]

I just worry we could end up in a situation in Nov/Dec where the only fit defenders we have available are Lindelof, Maguire & Mengi and will be unable to bring in anyone as it's outside of the transfer window

 

[Class of 63]

Don't think the defenders are getting worse since joining the club, more some fans(and I use the term loosely)are going to greater length to find fault in them.

 

[Matthew84!]

Don't think the defenders are getting worse since joining the club, more some fans(and I use the term loosely)are going to greater length to find fault in them.

This exactly, people really need to stop picking at every little fault, lets see how they're playing once their fitness levels are up

 

[Marcus]

While some of criticism towards our defenders is absolutely justified, defence is always about collective effort, clear structure and organisation.

We have no idea how to defend the back post and our defensive shape in general often looks like a mess. Playing with defensively impotent Pogba as part of double pivot, slowed down Matic and without organized press doesn't help either.

Moreover, Ole too often sets the team up to counter attack, which invites even more pressure to our backline.

He himself admitted that it is structural problem, but it's almost two years and we yet to see that he is able to fix it and can implement well-balanced attacking and defensive systems, which will be effective during extended period of time.

I agree. Sometimes there is a deliberate tilt in the balance as well. In a defensively set-up team, you take less risks and the defenders look better.

 

[Sky1981]

It doesnt matter how good you are. If you're not playing as a well drilled team that covers each other like the Rome phalanx you will get outwitted, flanked, and exposed by your smarter opponent.

Football is never about one on one. Even franz beckenbauer himself cant defend agains 2 players at the same time.

Our defender might look stellar if you put them on 1 on 1. But when teammates is added on the equation it's another matter.

Bad coaching I'd say. Pick any so so defender on any well coached epl teams and they'll look much better in a game compared to our "how can they be that bad" defender

 

[RedDevil@84]

Don't think the defenders are getting worse since joining the club, more some fans(and I use the term loosely)are going to greater length to find fault in them.

So basically this is their level

 

[el3mel]

Bailly got it worst in this regard. On his first few months here he was very rock solid, a monster and everyone was expecting him to lead our defense for several years to come.

But just like almost every signing we made post Fergie, instead of improving, he regressed massively over time, got lots of injuries and now a shadow of himself.

Pretty shame really.

Lindelof is the exception for what you are saying though. His first season here was God awful on all fronts. He only started to improve starting from his second season. Last 2 season were very good from him overall, but he has been terrible at the start of current season.

 

[Cman]

Good thread. Was texting a friend post game about the same thing. It’s got to be down to the coaching. We are just not defending as a unit. Their equalising goal came from a person unmarked at the back post where they had been troubling us all night. This is even after we had put on an extra centre back and had AWB as wing back to help sure up that side.
Prior to that when they hit the crossbar was again as player there was unmarked. On that occasion AWB had gone chasing the ball and ended up almost on the left side of their penalty box. Instead of our remaining back 3 shifting a bit to the right or one of our midfielders plugging the gap we just left a man free who should have score.
Very basic stuff that we are failing to do. Perhaps a major transfer that might help the most would be to bring in a top level defensive coach

 

[SadlerMUFC]

If this early season has taught me anything it's that every teams defense is sh*te, which should make for some great watching this year...

 

[elmo]

If this early season has taught me anything it's that every teams defense is sh*te, which should make for some great watching this year...

I've said this for a while now, modern defence in the league is rubbish.

It's why us having the 3rd best defence in the league isn't much to be proud of because there's still plenty to improve before it can actually be considered good.

 

[rollingstoned1]

this is a theme across not just the defence but every part of the pitch post-Fergie. the caf has a short memory so will just ask for the previous flavor of the moment to be offloaded as deadwood for the current new flavor of the moment. One only needs to look at the common denominator to see where the problem perhaps actually is.

 

[Class of 63]

So basically this is their level

I wouldn't pay to much attention to yesterday as Brighton were outstanding from the off, they'd have caused problems for anybody playing like that.

 

[Class of 63]

This exactly, people really need to stop picking at every little fault, lets see how they're playing once their fitness levels are up

That's far too sensible for this place, sadly

 

[starman]

Didn't we have have the second most clean sheets in Europes top 5 league last season or something like that....

I think the modern day fan of a top clubs just love to nitpick, hate their own players and have a grass is greener mentality

 

[Rasendori]

The warning signs were shown the first time the back four played together in the 4-0 victory against Chelsea. As exemplified by

Defence work in progress which is to be expected given it was the first time the back four played together.

Shaw can see the shirt number of his man, Barkley can possibly put Abraham through on goal, McTominay and Pogba have left the back four exposed

Giroud is through on goal. Fortunately Pedro had tunnel vision and didn't see his teammate.

Given that AWB will be expected to contribute offensively, we can expect this to be a regular occurence. He did actually win the ball back

Abraham is through on goal as Maguire is trying to both cover Shaw and block a possible shot from Pedro.

United conceded several crosses from our left side

Can Maguire block the cross

Abraham has got to be scoring from this cross. Showed his inexperience

Should Lindelof be winning this in the air? Lack of communication between Bisakka and Lindelog. Poor defensive awareness from Bisakka. Bisakka's positioning was a slight concern of mine in preseason.

Leads to De Gea being beaten from a tight angle

Felt Pulisic would've made better decisions in the final third had he started. Giroud caused problems too

None of Shaw/Lindelof/Maguire/Bisakka are bad defenders in isolation. Throughout the season it wouldn't be a shock if all of them go through periods where they're appear to be in-form albeit at different periods to one another. The issue is not when they inevitably thrive as individuals, its the prerogative to function as a cohesive unit.

With Bisakka pushed high up the pitch with instructions to provide width as United look for an outlet when lopsided on the left, and to have a line of five in attack to overwhelm a line of four in defence, the opposition look to exploit this by attacking United's right channel with AWB out the picture and look to isolate Lindelof who prefers to jockey opponents to delay attacks. Conversely, with Bisakka's penchant for taking the calculated risk of selling himself he's susceptible to being dragged out of position by getting overly tight to a player which leads to Lindelof splitting for cover and putting the back four in disarray i.e the equalizer in the Europa League defeat to Sevilla. Greenwood is a striker by trade and doesn't have the engine for incessant tracking back. Rashford has the engine, but Ole likes him as an outlet for a counter-attack opportunity.

The midfield complicate things further. Pogba's defensive capabilities are not through a lack of trying, but you can almost guarantee he'll make a niggling foul that's completely unnecessary thereby inviting more pressure on the team. Then there's the well spoken about situation in midfield both the shape in defensive transition, and the lack of ball retention in offensive proceedings.

When you assemble an assortment of players in unfavorable circumstances, then their performances will invariably be disproportionate to what they're truly capable of, rendering the initial incentive for purchasing the player, counter-productive.

 

[LoneStar]

Defence is a mixture of individual abilities and organisation. It’s also having players who complement each other.

True game against Brighton showed us that our organisation is pretty bad. The right side was getting rinsed, and repeatedly AWB kept coming center. At some point one of the players or coaches have to tell him to cut it out.

Maguire and Lindelof don’t complement each other at all. Maguire and Baily is much better, but Baily keeps getting injured all the time.

 

[Untd55]

Nope, they just weren't as good as people thought from the start. Shaw, though, has been massively hampered by injuries.

Maguire not that good. Lindelof average; Bailly - injury or red card player; Williams - junk; Wan Bissaka, good one-on-one.

 

[Suedesi]

Don't think the defenders are getting worse since joining the club, more some fans(and I use the term loosely)are going to greater length to find fault in them.

Or alternatively, any new signing is seen as the new Baresi by the transfer muppets, and then reality settles in.

 

[CG1010]

Over the course of three seasons we have played more and more attacking football, reducing the protection in the midfield available to the defenders. Instead of Matic and Mctominay, we are looking more at Fred, Pogba and now VDB.

 

[Florida Man]

The warning signs were shown the first time the back four played together in the 4-0 victory against Chelsea. As exemplified by


None of Shaw/Lindelof/Maguire/Bisakka are bad defenders in isolation. Throughout the season it wouldn't be a shock if all of them go through periods where they're appear to be in-form albeit at different periods to one another. The issue is not when they inevitably thrive as individuals, its the prerogative to function as a cohesive unit.

With Bisakka pushed high up the pitch with instructions to provide width as United look for an outlet when lopsided on the left, and to have a line of five in attack to overwhelm a line of four in defence, the opposition look to exploit this by attacking United's right channel with AWB out the picture and look to isolate Lindelof who prefers to jockey opponents to delay attacks. Conversely, with Bisakka's penchant for taking the calculated risk of selling himself he's susceptible to being dragged out of position by getting overly tight to a player which leads to Lindelof splitting for cover and putting the back four in disarray i.e the equalizer in the Europa League defeat to Sevilla. Greenwood is a striker by trade and doesn't have the engine for incessant tracking back. Rashford has the engine, but Ole likes him as an outlet for a counter-attack opportunity.

The midfield complicate things further. Pogba's defensive capabilities are not through a lack of trying, but you can almost guarantee he'll make a niggling foul that's completely unnecessary thereby inviting more pressure on the team. Then there's the well spoken about situation in midfield both the shape in defensive transition, and the lack of ball retention in offensive proceedings.

When you assemble an assortment of players in unfavorable circumstances, then their performances will invariably be disproportionate to what they're truly capable of, rendering the initial incentive for purchasing the player, counter-productive.

Great post.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

We have fairly poor management and coaching which makes them look worse. Indiviviaully they are a great bunch of defenders, but we might lack on world beater like Van Dijk to have a super solid defense.

 

[Class of 63]

Or alternatively, any new signing is seen as the new Baresi by the transfer muppets, and then reality settles in.

Aka the YouTube generation.

 

[sunama]

I remember way back with Dalot first arrived.
he had a total of 6 league games in the Portuguese league.
Bizarrely, many fans believed that this guy was going to be our RB for the next 10 years!
Basically, he was a youth player, bought for the U23 (or U18) team, to hopefully mature into a senior player. Even today, I think he is only 20 years old and being written off.
Now, we are looking to buy a new LB - Telles -who some people are pinning their hopes on. This guy will likely be used as a squad player and it is quite possible that if he joins us, he may not be any good and added to the deadwood list.

 

[Odin]

I think Shaw looks an improved player.

To me, Bailly looks more settled in and assured.

Maguire is maintaining his level, which is good, albeit slow. I don't think his ceiling for immediate improvement is very high. Gelling better with Bailly is maybe the most I'd hope for if they're given the opportunity.

Lindelöf looks like he has hit a rough patch when it comes to development of his physical and footballing attributes. I don't claim to be in the know about how Lindelöf go about his life on and off the field, and I am not making excuses for him, but becoming a father may have a huge impact in your life. Yeah, yeah, they're all proffesionals getting paid handsomely to do their job... I am just saying private matters do have an impact on performance. Anybody in any form of management should know.

With AWB, I think it's mostly down to fans raising the bar quicker than he has time to develop. I'd cut him some slack, he's bailed out our defensively sloppy midfielders and not so pacey central defence many a time.

Williams came in fearless and without pressure. Now it looks like he is feeling the pressure. I also feel he only needs to be shifted to the right and given time.

Dalot, Tuanzebe, Jones, ... They might have improved, but how will we know?

 

[tombombadil]

Let's not overthink things. Each of our defenders has strengths and weaknesses and are played a certain way which may result in exposing certain areas.

Brighton's goal and the multiple shots on goal that led to the goal are simple. AWB's positioning is poor as he has a tendency to get sucked in to the middle when the ball is at the opposite flank. Brighton exploited this with aplomb. Ole knew this and tried to put Bailly on to track the runner. Brighton responded by adding a different runner. March then scored. AWB is still a good defender on one on ones. He didn't suddenly get worse. His weakness just got exposed. That's all there is to it. Ole himself said as much when he said AWB is a good learner and he is learning to defend back stick.

Similarly, Harry Maguire is a good centerback. He's just slow. He prospered in Leicester's defensive counterattacking style as they played deep. This mitigated his lack of pace so he wasn't so exposed. With Man United, we press more so the line is higher and he therefore gets exposed more often.

 

[jojojo]

I think we're still looking for the element that binds it all together. Training and experience in playing together are part of it, but I still think you need someone calling the shots on the field. Whether that's calling the offside line, deciding that "playing it out" isn't working, or putting people in their places at setpieces.

Some of them do it by shouting, others a wave of the arms is enough. Sometimes a player is so good that the other defenders set their position based on his. We haven't had that player for a while.

Oddly enough, the one I had the most hope for was Bailly - but injuries have seen that opportunity slide (still hoping he'll come good though). If DdG had been the sort of keeper who dominates the key plays, maybe it would matter less. Who's left? Tuanzebe remains my other great hope, but I admit that's nothing more than a hope based on glimmers rather than anything more profound.

 

[tombombadil]

My main concern right now, is one long term injury, or god forbid, covid19 infection on Maguire. Then we're well and truly fecked.