Do our players put in the same kind of shift as the teams above us?

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Fortitude, Apr 14, 2019.

  1. Apr 14, 2019
    #41

    Adam-Utd Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid

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    I think our players aren’t very fit, and ole will work with this In the summer. He’s said himself he can’t change that in the middle of a season without risking injury.

    I do think he will have to make some hard decisions, we need a fair few new signings that are used to running hard but more importantly we need the coaching to be spot on, as it’s more than just being fit, its smart pressing.

    Klopp / poch / guardiola have all needed 2 seasons to get it working also, let’s not forget that.
  2. Apr 14, 2019
    #42

    bushyboy New Member

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    To answer the OP, definitely not, and we're technically inferior to the other top 6 sides.
  3. Apr 14, 2019
    #43

    C'est Moi Cantona Full Member

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    I get all this, especially after what we've seen recently, but do we not run the risk of getting nowhere fast by throwing everything at trying to replicate how we used to play, it just seems the game has moved on from that sort of style working so successfully nowadays.
  4. Apr 14, 2019
    #44

    noodlehair "It's like..."

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    Well, we put in similar shifts to Chelsea, who also look like they can't be fecked half the time.

    The stats in terms of work rate tend to suggest (prove) otherwise.

    As does the fact we can suddenly switch on the effort tap when Barcelona come to town.

    Motivation seems to be a massive problem for our squad. It's obviously easier when you're going for a title like City and Liverpool, but we've just downed tools around mid March time three years in a row now, and are noticably out worked most games in general. The only spell where this hasn't been the case, somewhat uncoincidentally coincided with us winning 14 out of 15 games, or whatever it was.
  5. Apr 14, 2019
    #45

    RepardReece Full Member

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    Work rate definitely isn't there and if you say otherwise you haven't been watching the games recently. We've been second to every ball and we've only attacked when we've been losing (like under Mourinho again). OGS' first 5 games was exceptional, every player put a shift in, but since then its slowly dropped to this point now. We are one of the slowest teams in the league at the minute, very different to when OGS first came in.

    But that being said, we have players that play in different styles and philosophies, which really doesn't help. This is why this summer transfer window will be key, Ole needs to get rid of any player not suited to his style as it really affects our gameplay, and bring in players that do - and that actually want to play and put effort in.

    Also, I think the players are far too far apart from each other during the games, watching West Ham yesterday our players were hugging the line on each side of the pitch, we need to be far more compact. Look how compact we were when OGS first came in, compared to this most recent game. Movement is also very poor, which I put down to work rate.
  6. Apr 14, 2019
    #46

    Aloysius's Back 3 New Member

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    And I get your points too. However whilst the game has no doubt changed - I just watched how we used to play during the Rooney & Ronaldo era - we had technical ability, players who could pass across the pitch as much down the middle, players like Ronaldo to Ji Sun Park to Carrick to Evra who could score a goal from the middle of the pitch from absolute yards out, nearly every player could score a header after someone provided a great cross, players were great at everything from ability to effort.

    Has the game changed so much that we can't have the right type of player who can score headed goals once in a whilst? How often does that happen? Do we score from free kicks or corners? A couple of midfielders who can play together to create chances or if not then take a crack at 30/40 yards? What about the ball playing stable defenders like Rio that would still bust a gut if players got past them?

    The list is endless.

    Whilst the game has changed - it has not changed that much to suddenly concentrate on the finer details when some of the most simple stuff has gone astray.

    Ole for me, even if he is an average manager knows that this club needs work rate & down right ability. I'm happy to take that for a season even if we win cr*p all under him.
  7. Apr 14, 2019
    #47

    Cloud7 Full Member

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    City and Liverpool definitely do. Spurs seem to do so more often than not. Can’t really say for Arsenal and Chelsea.

    Watching that match today, it was staggering how lively Liverpool’s style of play is. Not just players constantly moving around, but the amount of second balls they won today was remarkable.
  8. Apr 14, 2019
    #48

    Rifer Full Member

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    OP also did not include Chelsea and Arsenal are as expected. :D

    Chelsea have its own "special" problematic environment where managers will be easily given the boot and players generally safe, Arsenal don't have ballsy managers, and for us.... it's the 1. many problems that the manager trio pre-Ole did not fully solved.
    Moyes did zero nothing to replace deadwood/veterans, and adding two just good squad player players on their prime age who is just not a long term players.

    LVG finally sliced the team wide open showing many deadwood players out the door... but then he also still kept some, and bring in more average players (obv not all).

    Mou continue removing some deadwood players, but still keep some..and extending their contract even, plus bring in more lazy/deadwood/declining players, while not emphasizing that high energy and high workrate in attack into his coaching, management, starting lineup and from the players he bring in (not all, some.. maybe about half are actually good). So that 2+ seasons playing with "that style" have effects on the team now which Ole inherited.

    2. Also, from all the seasons, a common theme arise where new players (transfers or youth) just drop their game once they became a United player. Basically they just don't put in the shift anymore once they join, which is why they tend to be so good before and now not anymore. They're not even in their 30s, so idk what the hell is wrong with these players. Many are still that young. Even Zlatan in his 35(?) worked hard tripled as hard as these younger lazy ones.

    Will Ole solve the 2 main problems? Idk.
    Tbf Phil jones was given the contract during his caretaking months, before he became the permanent manager now, so that one is forgiven since Ole may not have big say there.

    Yeah I think the solution depends on the coaching and personality of the manager. I meant how the manager's character are in managing and coaching his players. Additionally the profile of the players they bring in to the club. Klopp, Pep and Poch emphasizes on energy and high workrate, they demand it from their players and those who are do not follow are given the quick boots out of the club/team. A lot of lazy players and average players either they finally work their sock off or being shipped out by Pep/Klopp and Poch over the years, even star player. The new players they brought in are also not perfect, some actually fail to follow their demand and soon out of the door. Anyhow, long story short, they get it right quickly about 2 seasons... well.. more like one season to test the current teams and the next transfer window (summer) to fix it. Pep is the only one that fixed it completely just after 1 seasons and the summer window after that (well, he got the advantage of finance muscle and owners backing completely so..) , but Poch and Klopp are just on the right track after the first season and summer window after that. Took more seasons and transfer windows to get to where they are now.

    And back to United.... how many more seasons should we waste on these many lazy players and players that are stealing a living. Is Ole brave enough to kick that kind of players out? even if he had to resort to harsh treatment and controversy... including star names. Not a fan of kept on using SAF's name.. but let's just use it quickly -- there's no problem about workrate overall when he's in charge (at least in majority of his earlier seasons) because we know for sure he'll demand it from his players or else, face the boot. How good is Ole in demanding these players to follow what he wanted.. or they'll face the axe?

    Does Ole have the right personality and strong demanding character? Idk.
    Anyhow, at least we know Ole emphasize high energy and high workrate so for sure he'll work on it this summer and pre-season.
    The only question is how is he going to manage the transfer out, and replacing them with newer players with hopefully right mindset and willingness who are worth it.

    ---

    :lol:Finally answering the qs in the title = we're more like the in-between the best three and the worst in this shift/work-rate thing.
    1. Spurs, Liv, City.
    ...
    ...
    4. United (not a problem in big games, more often than not too relax and lazy vs small teams, few good workrate games vs small teams).
    5. Arsenal (on and off, they also have some players who just play on their own term and time.. their mentality have always been questionable so.. ).
    6. Chelsea (so unpredictable, usually put in great winning mentality shift which then they'll be high up on the list of workrate, often gear 5 or 6 when new manager comes but if the manager is too demanding.. expect a quick shift to laziness, always drop off after many consecutive seasons with the same manager).

    Side-note: Distance-traveled in game doesn't fully meant high workrate. It just meant big portion of it. A team can move less distance but still put in a great shift. A team can even run a lot but the players play in a not so bothered way like just another day on the job, so let's just do the minimum, not busting their gut out.

    Just my imo.
  9. Apr 14, 2019
    #49

    purgethefallen New Member

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    It's the so-called talented ones who have this problem mostly, looking at you Pogba and Martial especially.
  10. Apr 14, 2019
    #50

    purgethefallen New Member

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    So it's Ole's fault the players are unfit and used to giving half-effort in games but he's obviously a bad manager if he can't change that in a couple of months and needs money to improve the squad?

    Christ on a crutch, there are some really stupid posts on here.
  11. Apr 14, 2019
    #51

    C'est Moi Cantona Full Member

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    That fair enough, I do think though, that even with the teams you are talking about, we'd have to play a different way if we had them now faced with the way top teams have evolved.

    At some point we're going to have to modernise, and probably knock the squad apart and start again, it's just frustrating that we seemed to come so tantalising close to actually trying to do it after Jose was sacked, with Ed briefing anyone who wouid listen that we're going to get Poch, and a DOF to move us forward, you know a decent plan for once.

    This seems to have been forgotten now, so Ole deserves all the backing he can get to get us going, but it's easy to have major reservations about much changing.
  12. Apr 14, 2019
    #52

    NotoriousISSY $10mil and I fecked it up!

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    We're not very good in phases, our collective pressing and team shape is horrendous.
  13. Apr 14, 2019
    #53

    Slik New Member

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    So you’ll don’t realise players started getting injured a lot after ole took over and implemented the pressing game.
    And , you haven’t realised that’s the reason we have stopped pressing and gone back to Mourihos methods?

    It’s simple. And not science. Well it’s actually science, but simple all the same.
    The players are not used to playing that way under the previous manager. And that can’t be changed drastically mid season. They need to be conditioned over a period of time by fitness coaches. Something that can’t be done during the season or they will get injured as was happening some weeks back.

    I know Ole likes to press. He has been forced to abandon the pressing game because the players bodies couldn’t handle it. Now what I believe he will do, is to introduce it during pre season. As well as buying players that re noted for having huge tanks(running nonstop).

    And please, the players don’t intentionally show a lack of effort. They just can’t handle it. Pogba for example will run for a while, pressing etc and then after a while can’t keep up. He is not used to playing that way. You should all just relax and wait for pre season for Ole to actually implement his ideas.
  14. Apr 14, 2019
    #54

    abdo99 Full Member

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    They tried to and then fell down to injuries. Pointless to compare against teams that have high pressed for 3/4 years.
  15. Apr 15, 2019
    #55

    Random Task Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018

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    There was a visible upsurge in workrate throughout the team after Ole took over, but it has slowly deteriorated over the last month or so we are now witnessing those same lethargic, energyless displays that were prevalent during Jose's reign. Given how easy our players had it in the 5 years prior to Ole's arrival - not being asked to press or run their hearts out for 90 minutes straight - it seems only logical that they would struggle to adapt to the new manager's demands. Time will tell on this front.

    The major issue for me is the mental fragility that exists throughout our squad. Jose eluded to it on multiple occasions during his tenure and Ole has raised similar concerns himself recently.
  16. Apr 15, 2019
    #56

    Lentwood Full Member

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    No
  17. Apr 15, 2019
    #57

    Farfetched New Member

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    Not consistently enough, hence the present trend of bobbing between 6th and 4th.
  18. Apr 15, 2019
    #58

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert Scout

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    Fair points, although I wouldn't just say pressing = effort.

    The conviction and drive, or umbrella term of intensity is also a key point. Man for man, are we matching up in that department? Although, perhaps confidence enters the fray here, I guess.
  19. Apr 15, 2019
    #59

    Pavl3n Full Member

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    Well, since the popular opinion is that players like to have it their way. Don't break a sweat and don't put the extra shift, shouldn't we let them know we are not happy?
    Madrid fans have very high demands and we all know they let their players know when they're unhappy. I am not saying it's the right method to do it, but the message gets across.

    Have a chant.
    In the tune of Pink Floyd - Another brick in the wall
    "We don't need no lazy players,
    Hey, Ole, kick the lazies out"
  20. Apr 15, 2019
    #60

    Buster15 Full Member

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    Not sure that I agree with that. In fact I see it the other way round.
    The two things that we are not that good at are playing with real intensity and operating as a team.
    The intensity issue is very evident when you compare us with the top three sides but I accept that this requires a fitness level that we don't have at the moment.

    The teamwork issue is a real problem. We don't move off the ball and create space to receive a pass anything like well enough.
    As a result we cannot play one touch quick passing as well as our main opposition.
  21. Apr 15, 2019
    #61

    Nialinho Full Member

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    I think it's all to do with fitness, we've just ran out of steam.

    The team under Jose, was used to absorbing pressure and striking on the break. We've also done that a lot under Ole in the big games especially away from home. But when he first came in the shackles were off and everyone was running a hell of a lot more. With all the injuries that seems to have caused, I think the team just wasn't fit enough to continue like that and maybe that's why we've become so lackluster in recent games. Hopefully a full preseason fixes this.
  22. Apr 15, 2019
    #62

    Jazz Full Member

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    Of course we don't but I believe it's more down to the players not being fit enough. You can't change all that mid season. I reckon Ole didn't realise just how shit our fitness was, hence the style of play earlier. Then we got the injuries. Jose and his outdated methods a factor. We've probably been 'unfit' for his whole tenure which is a fecking travesty.

    We just need to grind out the rest of the season and then start properly in pre-season. Hopefully we put the best fitness and sports science personnel in place who are available. That's where the club really needs to spend some money.
  23. Apr 15, 2019
    #63

    cyril C Full Member

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    It is true that we failed on collecting second balls against WH the setup had something to do with that. In MF we had Fred and Pogba only who were overwhelmed. You might argue that what happen to Mata and Lingard and Martial, but none of these 3 are famous on defensive duties. Had WH parked the bus with 10 players inside the box then perhaps our front 4 would be right, but WH didn't and our 2 CMF just weren't the right type of MF to batter. Mata is a waste of space IMO, play 2-3 games a month and still no-show.
  24. Apr 15, 2019
    #64

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    We won't see the benefits of Solkjaer's new fitness regime till after our next pre season
  25. Apr 15, 2019
    #65

    Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber Thus says Kemo

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    We played a 3 man midfield. But Mata was a no show. Leaving Pogba- Fred to fight 2 vs 5 vs the West Ham Midfield
  26. Apr 15, 2019
    #66

    deadrevelz New Member

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    No. Reasons: fitness, wrong players, old players, coaching, end of season fatigue.
  27. Apr 15, 2019
    #67

    Ekeke Full Member

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    What?

    Ander should be listed twice not be listed as a maybe. Smalling tends to do more defending than Lindelof too
  28. Apr 15, 2019
    #68

    Ekeke Full Member

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    Ander is an extreme hard worker, one of the hardest workers I've seen play for the club. Other than him we do have a bit of a lack of players who work their butt off.

    Fred has had a few games that suggest he might be a fairly hard worker too so we'll have to see how he goes
  29. Apr 15, 2019
    #69

    AgentP Full Member

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    Exactly. Under Ole, I'm hoping we adopt a similar style. In our team, the only player I feel is actually lazy and not working hard enough would be Martial.
  30. Apr 15, 2019
    #70

    izec Full Member

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    If you watch us or Liverpool/City, it is like a different sport at times. We are miles behind. So much work to do over the next years on all fronts, it is scary.
  31. Apr 15, 2019
    #71

    TheRedDevil'sAdvocate Full Member

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    I agree with you. The selection in the West Ham game gave the impression that we were expecting WHU to park the bus and surrender possession to us and it clearly didn't work. It's ok i guess, all managers make mistakes when preparing their tactics. With the CL game coming up we probably wanted to rest some players too, so you can't really blame Ole for giving Mata a start in a home game against an inferior team.

    The broader point i wanted to make, regarding the new signings/departures next summer, is that Ole will have to step up and make some tough calls. It goes beyond that infamous ball-playing centre-half everyone's screaming about. We must add the aforementioned qualities in all thirds of the pitch. Everybody wants to see Martial & Rashford in our attacking trident. Fine with me but it means that the third attacker and the midfield will have to work their socks off game after game because these two offer next to nothing when it comes to winning challenges/second balls and keeping moves alive in the final third. I don't think it's as simple as people believe it is.
  32. Apr 15, 2019
    #72

    Buster15 Full Member

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    It is that.
    On technical ability City are miles ahead of us and every other side as well.
    On workrate and intensity Liverpool are miles ahead.

    But while I am concerned with the regression of the team of late we must be fair to Ole.
    He and his staff need time to implement their requirements on their players.
    It would only be fair to really judge their progress by the middle of next season.
    Please don't think that I am advocating writing off another season but we should know by then whether Ole is the right man for the job.
  33. Apr 15, 2019
    #73

    Patrick08 New Member

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    Some of them aren't fit, some of them are lazy, and some of them have just lost their engine.
  34. Apr 15, 2019
    #74

    yp8 New Member

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    Its mind boggling the fact that in the six years since Fergie left that we are sixth best in the premiership and deservedly so.

    With the resources that we have we are sixth best in the premiership and arguably the worst team in quarter finals of the European cup. 10 years ago we were the reigning Champions of the premiership and European cup. 10 years later we literally cant string a couple of passes together after all the financial resources that are at are disposal. Truly mind boggling !
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2019
  35. Apr 15, 2019
    #75

    M Bison Full Member

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    What are the stats around km run now? Initially when Ole took over they increased vs what they were when Jose was in charge but it’d be interesting to see what they look like in recent weeks.
  36. Apr 15, 2019
    #76

    TheRedHearted New Member

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    We need to go to a 4-4-1-1. Martial as the furthest up and rashford just behind him. Midfield four of pogba, Mctominay, Fred and preferably Herrera on the right but it seems he’s on his way out. Our midfield tends to get overwhelmed with just three. I suppose a 3-5-1-1 suits as as well but pogba can’t seem to be asked to run a midfield box to box at this point at all. And that’s fine with me, him behind the two quicksters (either in a diamond or in the middle of the front three in a midfield five) he can drift a little deeper but he will he mostly hovering and running up on top to the top of the box where he is dangerous.

    In a 3-5-2 mctominay and feed can boss the middle on top of the center backs. A left wingback and right wingback would be needed, Dalot as a great cover on the right as he continues to get better and the back three of shaw, lindelof, Bially (for me personally even though he’s disappeared.). Smalling will get enough rotation in and Jones as well.
  37. Apr 16, 2019
    #77

    cyril C Full Member

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    Come on, you can tweak the structure just because this player won't defend, the other player doesn't tackle. I watched the Chelsea game the other day and realise that this was the Mourinho team (on players) but without the Mourinho work ethics. Mourinho demanded his wingers work their socks off (like Willian) but then how many creative players who can run 10KM+ and score 20 goals a season? So whether 433 or 4231, we could only allow 2-3 players staying upfront, the others need to do whatever it takes to balance the team.

    Assuming we will get Sacho, then perhaps we must play 433 if both Martial and Sancho starts. Otherwise we will have to play Dalot as converted RW. just a thought. By the same token, if we play 4231, with Pogba in CMF, then we better partner a mobile and commanding CMF to compensate for this, even though Ole may expect opposition to park the bus. I think Pogba-Fred is OK under a 3x CB setup.
  38. Apr 16, 2019
    #78

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    Is there a problem a dof can't fix?

    Lazy player
    Winning
    Attacking football
    Youth stars
    20 years vision

    Our player are just lazy, players like martial are young and fit as a mule, the only reason they're not busting a gut is their own laziness. You can be told not to press intensively but there's no manager stopping you from moving off the ball. Even tiki taka barcelona moves alot off the ball.

    Our fans are equally guilty, they applaud everything the player dishes out whether it's a half arsed game, an abysmal performance, no worries we will cheer you all game long. The player are getting complacent. Giving his all has lose it's meaning. Young is a good example, play 1 month of good football and he get an upgraded contract and return to being shit. The fans didnt demand more from the player, instead some of us rather comfortably blame everything on jose rather than facing the reality. I dont believe ole needs 2 years just to get everyone to start playing with urgency, that's not fitness that's mentality
  39. Apr 16, 2019
    #79

    TheRedDevil'sAdvocate Full Member

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    Maybe we should, i wish it's just a formation thing. But, while i hope i'm wrong, i still think we have to make some crucial decisions regarding the personnel. I use the word "crucial" because i don't believe that it is the individual quality of the players the main issue here. As Bilic said the other day on a panel, Rashford, Martial, Lukaku, Pogba... these are players who can get you the goals you need. The argument holds some truth but i feel it's quite similar to saying that a team with Pele, Maradona, Platini and Pirlo in the midfield will provide you with the assists you need. But we all know that you can't fit all of them in the midfield because you need other attributes there too (I'm exaggerating but you get what i mean).

    I'll leave the discussion about our attacking players' absolute need to be constantly fed near the box with enough space to run with or without the ball and how this limits our options for building a strong side (when all your forwards are really bad at producing football in tight spaces, you can only hope to build a transition based/counter attacking unit which will play this football at top level) out of this thread because it's not what the OP wants to discuss. But let me ask you this: Have you ever seen Rashford and Martial working well as a duo? Whenever they're both on the pitch, each one looks to get in a good position where he can finish a move instead of trying to create for the other. I would think twice before playing them together up front. See, it's not as easy as it seems.

    What we really need to focus on is adding certain attributes we lack in all thirds of the pitch. Everybody is raving about the way Klopp gets the best out of a bunch of players who don't really look very shiny on paper, and rightly so. What most of us forget is that this was exactly the story behind our last two PL titles. RvP/Hernandez were leading the line and Nani (mostly) would look to initiate isolation plays on the left side. But there was also Rooney who, despite having passed his peak, was great at working the spaces in between the lines. He always had a great sense for collecting second balls and he possessed a tremendous ability in finding pockets of space right on the edge of the box with his face towards goal where he could either finish, create or spray the ball to the other side in order to keep the move alive and going. And there was also Park who would close down the first attacker the minute we lost possession in order to help two heavy bodies in the midfield get behind the ball and the rest of the team to get back into defensive positions. We played 4411 but each of the 2 forwards/wingers offered different qualities in our attacking plays. And only one of them had the job of focusing to get to the end of those plays.

    What is described as a lack of effort to me seems to be a team of players who offer pretty much the same qualities and want to to do the same things. In his first matches as manager, Ole showed that he desires to implement high-pressing tactics. With Rash-Tony and Pogba behind them, this is simply not possible. A top-level possession-based game is out of the question too. A transition-based game could work but the rest of the midfield/FBs would really have to be of great quality and the two CMs will have to cover lots of ground, pass through the lines adequately and be defensively sound too. In other words... not McTominay and Fred or Matic (the way he's playing now).
  40. Apr 16, 2019
    #80

    arthurka Full Member

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    Take that game vs West Ham for example.
    We did cover ground defending in rows but we didn´t press.
    Our build up play was shot as we hoofed the ball up again and again to release pressure (No Young to blame there sorry).
    As a result our possession was non existent.
    Funny thing is as the ball moves quicker than you you need to keep running to close gaps quickly enough, so having the ball actually helps with getting your team some rest while the other team needs to run.
    We need to control matches better or have a better high intensity setup as this squad looks so far behind.